Gaming, Media, Boobies and Poorly Thought-Out Responses: Oh My!

Moonlight Butterfly

Be the Leaf
Mar 16, 2011
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Dreiko said:
His reasoning is hard to follow but I did say 'Am I understanding you right?' which I meant as an actual question.

I just don't see how ''being pretty'' is more important for women. :/ I am very tired at the moment but let me just say that explaining sexualisation by saying it's important that women are pretty in games is just...heinously shallow.

I like sexy men so it's important that men are sexy in games! See I can do it too! yay. *falls asleep*
 

Doclector

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Aug 22, 2009
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I could say how, although dumb primal instinct points us towards the kind of women portrayed in videogames, dumb primal instinct holds less sway now, and we should not, in modern times, be using it as an excuse for this kind of thing.

I could say how, personally, oversexualisation of women makes me uncomfortable too, because one, by becoming connected to such things, it puts forth a bad image of myself, and two, I hate the feeling that I'm being pandered to.

I could say how looks should matter less and less as we move forward as a society, for both genders.

But honestly...I'm tired. Tired of this whole damn argument.
 

FireAza

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Aug 16, 2011
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If anything, it's not the breasts of the Dragon Crown characters that makes them freaks, it's their colossal asses, small waists and tiny, tiny heads. Even Sir Mix-A-Lot would consider their designs excessive.

I think this often comes down to trying to make it clear to people that you don't approve of this (as Doclector said). Gaming is lousy with female characters who look more at home on the street corner, and with the recenty controversy surrounding the portrayal of females in games, many fellas are trying to make it clear that they don't approve and they are not part of the problem. Though this does result in people seeking out games they can loudly condemn and disapprove of, which doesn't really address the problem.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
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Colour-Scientist said:
Also, it bothers me when people say "if over-sexualised women bother you, just buy another game". What other fucking game? They're in every game.
That is an exaggeration of melodramatic proportions.

The amount of games with over-sexualised women would probably barely make 1% unless you are deciding to impose limits on what kind of games "count".

Xbox 360

Halo 4 - Debatable. Only if you count AI's.
BioShock Infinite - No.
Skyrim - No.
COD: Black Ops II - No.
Mass Effect 3 - Several companions from Mass Effect 2, arguably.
Minecraft - No.
Borderlands 2 - No.
DARK SOULS - No.
Batman:Arkham City - No.
Assassin's Creed® III - No.

PS3:

Skyrim - No.
Tomb Raider - No.
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance - Not as far as I am aware.
Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch - No.
Assassin's Creed III - No.
God of War: Ascension - I imagine yes.
Far Cry 3 - No.
Spec Ops: The Line - No.
Persona 4 Golden - Not as far as I am aware (This is a Vita game, how is this even on the list).
Borderlands 2 - No.

PC:

BioShock Infinite - No.
Team Fortress 2 - No.
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim - No.
Dota 2 - I don't know.
Sid Meier's Civilization V - No.
Warframe - No.
Borderlands 2 - No.
Left 4 Dead 2 - No.
Terraria - No.
Torchlight II - No.

Having looked at the top 50 games for each platform, I can only say the exaggeration is even more obvious.
 

Sarah Frazier

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Dec 7, 2010
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Sexualization of people (or things or even animals) as well as glorifying violence will be here for a while, but that doesn't mean gamers have to lay down and take it. Sex and violence in games is popular because those are the kinds of games that used to sell the most. Remember games about golf? What about strictly racing games that weren't full of Mario characters? What about Parappa the Rapper?!

Not to mention that people are involved in the development every step of the way. It's silly to assume that someone somewhere won't find ways to insert what they find appealing, especially if encouraged by corporate backers who want quick returns to their investment. T&A is quicker and easier to design and won't frustrate nearly as many gamers as puzzles, planning, and generally thinking ahead would.
 

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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Moonlight Butterfly said:
What do you mean the way women look is more important?

So...what? My gender is reduced to our appearance in your eyes and we have nothing else more important than that.

Am I understanding you right? If that's what you mean that's just INCREDIBLY sexist.
I think he means women have always been the ones to make the extra effort to look great, rather than just good. Like Asian women binding there feet, Victorian women wearing crushing corsets, modern women wearing 8 or 9 inch heels (that has to hurt!) etc, on the other hand men have done what? Used hair styling stuff and worn a suit?

I maybe wrong about his argument though.

Moonlight Butterfly said:
As for the sorceress...I have huge tits irl if I thought that was the problem there would be a lot of self hate going on every time I looked in the mirror.
I assume you don't go shopping like
Which is the difference, these women in games are fighting things trying to kill her and instead of wearing full plate mail they are wearing what I just posted in the picture.

Look Sheeva even wears the same suit, but in red

Moonlight Butterfly said:
Does that make sense?
Yes it does and I agree. All I would like to see is things toned down, I don't want to see boobies every time I play with a female. On mass effect 2 you have Jack who doesn't wear anything when you first meet her and both of Samara's costumes are identical, both have her blue boobies busting out, which is why I almost never take her on missions and do Jacks loyalty ASAP so I can put a jacket on the poor thing.
 

someonehairy-ish

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Mar 15, 2009
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Doclector said:
I could say how, although dumb primal instinct points us towards the kind of women portrayed in videogames, dumb primal instinct holds less sway now, and we should not, in modern times, be using it as an excuse for this kind of thing.
No it doesn't. Nobody's primal instinct points them toward little women who've stolen legs from steroid-abusing transvestites:


Who also appear to have severe spinal deformation. These designs are so terrible -.-
 

Thaluikhain

Elite Member
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Apr 4, 2020
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Colour-Scientist said:
Phasmal said:
I think it is hilarious you think `nothing should change bro it's not important` is an UNPOPULAR opinion on this site.
Where have you been hanging out, the moon?

Either way, these conversations aren't gonna go away.
Hopefully we'll get some more diverse characters out of them, but if you think the T&A ones are gonna get all locked up and taken away you are just being wilfully ignorant.

(THIS is how you get flamed, son!)
I'm in one of these moods today

Plus I love that gif
I was going to type a response but this.

Also, it bothers me when people say "if over-sexualised women bother you, just buy another game". What other fucking game? They're in every game.
Yeah, those two posts.

Yes, there is a very obvious double standard going on. No, it's not going away if people admit it exists, you don't have to worry about that.
 

Fynik

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Nov 3, 2009
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Yeah, well, few things say "discuss this" as "My opinion is correct, and you are all wrong, and you can't change my mind because I've got my flame suit on"
Banging high power chorus goes here.
--

The physical appearance of women has always been (and likely will be due to the stagnation of medical and biological sciences recently) more important than that of men

What?
If their physical apperance has always and will always be more important than the physical appereance of someone else, why does medical and biological science have anything to do with that? Those would be irrelevant in the face of, well, eternity.

Unless you're saying that because we don't yet have complete mastery of nature then physical appereances will be unequal and until we do know everything about the human body and biological reality, we won't be able to make the judgement call onf what is more or less important and so we should just stick with the status quo?
That doesn't... really make any sense.
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you - or mischaracterization your opinion here - but that really doesn't make any sense.

So basically your statement boils down to "womens physical appereance have been regarded as more important generally, and I don't know why, but I like it, and if you don't, you can blame science I won't specify and stagnation I can't mention?"
Huh.
Convincing.

Well, I disagree, and your foolhardy notion that the two things are not equal is not equal to what I'd call the truth. Subjective experiences and artistic tradition (of many, many many idealized body types) really doesn't say much about actual reality. So no. No, the reaction to this incident is not an example of people being fussy or upset about the natural order being overturned. It is rather people being fussy and surprised at the levels of silly here.

I actually like the character designs, since they're so outragelously silly. It takes a complete and utter genius to make something so sincerely unreal.
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
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matthew_lane said:
DoPo said:
Erm...yes, actually the image of (supposed) fertility goddess is relevant in a discussion about a computer game in the year 2013 CE, if said computer game also has a character supposedly based on a fertility goddess. And the two look nothing alike.
/Facepalm. Seriously mate, are you just trolling, or are you really making that statement? I kinda want to know, so i can aim my rebuttal at the right mental age group... Okay lets pretend that you are serious.... Ahem, in that case Raiden from Mortal Kombat is also a major issue since he looks nothing like the proto-carvings of superstions held by ignorant savages 24,000 years ago... Yep, thats totally relvent to computer games in 2013 CE.

Also Angry birds must be pulled from all devices on the basis that birds don't actually exlpode against buildings if you launch them from slingshots to kill pigs. I mean thats what you are saying right? This is really the level of rhetoric you want to converse at, or are you really just trolling?
Ignoring the blatant insults - you are wrong and your analogies are wrong. It is claimed that the look of the sorceress is based on a fertility goddess. Her look should intentionally be invoking the imagery. I don't believe that either Raiden or Angry Birds claim they are striving to be close to the root of the imagery.

matthew_lane said:
DoPo said:
None were really as skinny as the sorceress.
Ahem, Persephone, Gaia & Aphrodite; an those are just the Greek ones off the top of my head. Shall i school you in some other cultures fertility deities, maybe the Hurrian mythos? Or are you sufficently schooled?
Yes, enlighten me - which goddess of fertility exactly is the sorceress emulating? I did say I don't know everything, so instead of snarky and insulting responses, you could have said "The sorceress is modeled after deity X".
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Phasmal said:
I think it is hilarious you think `nothing should change bro it's not important` is an UNPOPULAR opinion on this site.
Where have you been hanging out, the moon?
This is the internet, specifically the Escapist. Considering we seem to get weekly "Am I the only one who likes puppies" threads, I'm pretty sure there's nothing shocking here.

Shameful, perhaps.
 

Uhura

This ain't no hula!
Aug 30, 2012
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Guitarmasterx7 said:
Also, as I've said many times before, some women LIKE to dress sexy. If ALL of your female characters are sluts, yeah that's immature but throwing one into the mix here and there does NOT make a game sexist.
I think it's pretty unnecessary to use the word slut in this context.

omega 616 said:
I think he means women have always been the ones to make the extra effort to look great, rather than just good. Like Asian women binding there feet, Victorian women wearing crushing corsets, modern women wearing 8 or 9 inch heels (that has to hurt!) etc, on the other hand men have done what? Used hair styling stuff and worn a suit?
Men have historically put a lot of effort in looking good. Historically men have been removing their body hair (ancient greece, egypt etc.), worn huge & heavy white powdered wigs (17th and 18th century Europe), worn high heels (17th century Europe), worn makeup (throughout the history) etc.
 

Yopaz

Sarcastic overlord
Jun 3, 2009
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From a biologic standpoint male phenotypes have always been more important. Females are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to bearing offspring, giving birth and caring for the offspring. Thus females have always needed to be more picky while males have often had to compete with other males eliminating competition over the female. There is also a connection between this intraspecific competition and boys hitting puberty a few years later than girls. You might be right about the psychology, but in biology males rarely do the picking.
 

Queen Michael

has read 4,010 manga books
Jun 9, 2009
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I want an intelligent plot. A woman dressing like that to protect herself from danger isn't all that intelligent. It makes the plot stupid. I don't like stupid plots.
 

Techno Squidgy

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Nov 23, 2010
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Moonlight Butterfly said:
Dreiko said:
His reasoning is hard to follow but I did say 'Am I understanding you right?' which I meant as an actual question.

I just don't see how ''being pretty'' is more important for women. :/ I am very tired at the moment but let me just say that explaining sexualisation by saying it's important that women are pretty in games is just...heinously shallow.
The way I've interpreted it is that he's saying a woman's looks are more important for a man to be attracted to them than a man's looks are for a woman to be attracted to them. However, I could be misinterpreting what he's saying.

Attraction is a strange beast and doesn't work the same way for guys and gals, or so I've been led to believe. I can't remember what it was I watched that led me to this conclusion but it seemed scientific.
 

Chemical Alia

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Feb 1, 2011
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Moonlight Butterfly said:
What do you mean the way women look is more important?

So...what? My gender is reduced to our appearance in your eyes and we have nothing else more important than that.

Am I understanding you right? If that's what you mean that's just INCREDIBLY sexist.


As for the sorceress...I have huge tits irl if I thought that was the problem there would be a lot of self hate going on every time I looked in the mirror.

The problem with the sorceress for me is that she's depicted not as a powerful magic user but as a halloween themed pole dancer. If she had the same proportions but was depicted melting some faces instead of with her stave rammed up her buttcrack then hell I would be totally okay with it. As it is I look between her an the picture of the male sorcerer and I just think...fuck off.

Women can look sexy and attractive without being sexualised to the point they look stupid. Does that make sense?
I wanted to come in here and say something, but then you said basically what I wanted to say but way better. I want to see more women getting interested in games and game development, but stuff like this only serves to further cement the idea that you're stepping into a male hobby rather than something that is more inclusive.

Also, this is the first time I've seen that character and holy shit, ahahahahahaha. That's actually something that made its way into a basically finished video game, fucking lol! Some juvenile delinquent kid in my 5th grade class used to draw girls that looked like that (only without the creepy blank, featureless samefaces and wizard hats), and I think he was actually better at it. I also think he's in jail now. This is amazing.
 

Soundwave

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Sep 2, 2012
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Rather than going back and forth on the existence of double-standards, it bears mentioning that the original article was sexist and misguided.

It was the 'journalists' interpretation that being called gay was a negative thing. And it was the journalist originally calling the game designer a "14 year old boy" that elicited that response. He then decried that there was no "intellectual debate" when he had started said debate with a personal attack.

Large breasts and hips have long been associated with nurturing and motherhood, which was the sorceress's theme. Furthermore the stylistically large ass of the amazon would *actually* be helpful in combat because of her low center of gravity (like olympic gymnasts have).

I'd also like to make the point that women are perfectly capable of defending themselves and that they don't need some white male journalist being offended on their behalf.

Like others have said, you really have no business complaining about 'art', you can either support it financially or don't.

Edit: Internal cohesiveness
 

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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Uhura said:
omega 616 said:
I think he means women have always been the ones to make the extra effort to look great, rather than just good. Like Asian women binding there feet, Victorian women wearing crushing corsets, modern women wearing 8 or 9 inch heels (that has to hurt!) etc, on the other hand men have done what? Used hair styling stuff and worn a suit?
Men have historically put a lot of effort in looking good. Historically men have been removing their body hair (ancient greece, egypt etc.), worn huge & heavy white powdered wigs (17th and 18th century Europe), worn high heels (17th century Europe), worn makeup (throughout the history) etc.
I still don't think it's on the same level as what women do. Lets just talk about modern times, what do you think the ratio of male to female ratio of cosmetic surgery, women have to be leading that statistic. Is there even a typical male cosmetic surgery? The one for women is a boob job or tummy tuck. I have read of men getting pec implants, calf implants etc but it's far more common for a woman to go under the knife.

I am talking serious medical stuff, not "I've got a lot of back hair can you laser is please" stuff. If you add in them stats I would still see women winning ... tanning beds, bikini waxes, mani + pedi's, spa's etc of course guys do them as well but how often compared to women?

What about that stereotype women take forever to get ready? Trying on different dresses, matching colours and accessories etc Plucking eye brows, shaving legs and arm pits, getting the make up perfect, moisturizing, exfoliating, face masks etc again some guys use them but it is all aimed at women.

When was the last time you saw make up advertised for men? ?

I know tv guys wear make up for whatever reason but there is no section in Boots for male make up ... I even get funny looks buying nail polish.
 

Vegosiux

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May 18, 2011
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Moonlight Butterfly said:
So...what? My gender is reduced to our appearance in your eyes and we have nothing else more important than that.

Am I understanding you right? If that's what you mean that's just INCREDIBLY sexist.
I am just going to leave this here [http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html] and see what happens.

Personally, I think we men would commit collective suicide if women ever stopped existing. Not just because of the sex stuff, but because we really can't live without you. You get douchebags everywhere, of course.
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
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Chemical Alia said:
Also, this is the first time I've seen that character and holy shit, ahahahahahaha. That's actually something that made its way into a basically finished video game, fucking lol! Some juvenile delinquent kid in my 5th grade class used to draw girls that looked like that (only without the creepy blank, featureless samefaces and wizard hats), and I think he was actually better at it. I also think he's in jail now. This is amazing.
You think she's bad? Have you seen the other characters?


(credit for that goes to Kopikatsu from the other thread but I just don't want to spam her inbox with a quote)

Kopikatsu said:
I do like how the Barbarian classes pretty much have the same amount of cloth.
Are the bottom two the barbarian classes? If so, I think the male has more cloth. Well, that's based on my belief that the female is wearing chainmail bikini...somewhere there. The surface of both would be approximately the same, though.

But I feel compelled to ask WHAT'S WITH THEIR HEADS? The female's head is about the size of her fist. I'm not sure if the male either doesn't have a neck or his head is just halfway out of his torso like an indecisive but angry turtle.

Also, the sorceress...is there something wrong with her back? I don't think that's a natural pose, then again, with such a rack I'd imagine she probably has some spine pain/problems, so I guess that'd excuse it.

The knight just looks...unstable, I suppose. Now, I'm not really that good at anatomy or even drawing people but I'm pretty sure that the shoulders and upper torso are at least twice as big as what would be dangerous body proportions. or maybe his upper body is only 1.5/2 times the dangerous level but has really bulky armour which is still too impractical. I'm pretty sure he'll end up resembling a turtle too - just push him back once and he'll be all armoured and stuff but on his back and unable to go back on his feet.

The sorcerer and the...ranger? Seem the most normal. Although the ranger has legs that might put Bayonetta to shame (I think they are close to twice her torso) and...there is something odd about the sorcerer proportions but I can't pinpoint it. I think his head is a bit on the smaller side for his body or maybe his shoulders are a bit to wide. But among the rest he could pass for normal.

I think you're more into art than I (I suck at stick figures myself) so I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about them.

Also, I do think the sorceress looks the most ridiculous.