Gearbox Boss Says It's "Dangerous" to Let Valve Win

[FightThePower]

He didn't really make much of a point, just vague nods at Valve 'exploiting' people.

Besides, Steam is so inexpensive and convenient, why not? Plus it's a good interface for friends and stuff.

 

[RanD00M]

Wait a minute here.Din´t Gearbox make the two Half-Life 1 spin-offs?

 

[Icedshot]

Yeah, it's totally dangerous for a company that's known for its high-quality products (most of the time), attention to detail, and fanservice to actually get ahead in the industry. And Steam is exploiting people how exactly? Mind elaborating, Mr. Pitchford?

Exactly, i got steam and am incredible happy with it, and as far as i know, companies arn't being forced to use steam, so they don't have to accept whatever valve say..

 

[initialdelay]

Speaking as a customer, I like Steam. And Valve! They have shown themselves to be one of the most responsible players on the market. However I can understand some of the concern

 

[CanadianWolverine]

"Gearbox Boss" comes across like he talking straight from the sphincter.

I have both Steam and Impulse installed. I regularly browse the interwebs for deals from places like Direct 2 Drive and Good Old Games. I love me some Indy games and game mods too and follow their development on a constant basis.

http://store.steampowered.com/search/?genre=Indie

I see 239 listings. You know how many Indy games I used to see on the shelves of retail? Ya, I thought so.

As far as the percentage Steam is taking goes, here is something interesting for ya - Compare the various prices of Mount and Blade:

Taleworlds Entertainment Website: $33.60 CAD https://store3.esellerate.net/store/checkout/CustomLayout.aspx?s=STR6104314888&pc=&page=OnePageCatalog.htm
Steam: $29.99 USD http://store.steampowered.com/app/22100/
Impulse: $32.60 CAD? http://www.impulsedriven.com/mountblade
Direct 2 Drive: $5.00 USD? http://www.direct2drive.com/6680/product/Buy-Mount-and-Blade-Download

And for those who want their disc in hand:
Amazon: $11.17 USD?
27 new from $8.13 1 used from $10.99 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DF1AM8/ref=asc_df_B001DF1AM8930897?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&linkCode=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B001DF1AM8&tag=cnet-1744-20

So, now the real question is, when it comes to a online service for buying your game, who sets the price: Publisher or Developer? When the price on Steam/Impulse is consistent with the Developer's download price, what do you take from that? And how do you factor in the $5 price from D2D?

Honestly, how is this situation not shit tons better than what both the developers and customers are getting from retail? I say good on developer/publishers like Valve and Stardock and if others don't like them, do what they did, start a viable service like Steam and Impulse and release kick ass games with patch, content, and mod support.

So in conclusion to my rambling (for now): Screw you "Gearbox Boss", I have now just put your businesses games, http://www.gearboxsoftware.com/games/ , on the list of those I raise an eyebrow at before I even consider purchasing your products along with such luminaries like EA and Microsoft. Huh, they've made some alright above average, mostly average, and a few stinker games in the past, http://www.metacritic.com/search/process?sort=relevance&termtype=all&ts=gearbox&ty=3&button=search , I wonder if that has anything to do with this...

 

[LTK_70]

News flash: Steam is the most popular, well-organized, successful, fully stocked digital distribution system available. Valve has already won.

 

[spuddyt]

Power corrupts
Absolute power Corrupts absolutely.

It also Rocks absolutley too.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, because Valve depends on its customers, and keeping them happy. As for Developers, they get a chance to release indie games on a large scale. But I'm not sure if they have a lot of choice.

What i'm saying is that if valve gains total control over the digital distribution market, there is no reason for them not to abuse their position (right now they do it not because they love you, but because they enjoy having repeat customers who will buy all their stuff)

 

[QuirkyTambourine]

I honestly see no problem with Valve running Steam. Sure they'll promote their own games a bit more, but that's okay, because they're freaking Valve. I guess the argument could be made that they could influence sales of their games and cut from other developers that choose to put their games on Steam's profits. However, the fact is that the other developers choose to put their games out.

Bottom line, for me at least, I trust Valve to the ends of the Earth with gaming, and I see no problem with Steam whatsoever, at least from my own personal experience using it.

 

[Russian_Assassin]

you want Microsoft in charge? FUCK YOU, then they would charge us for free updates dumbass

I second that.

 

[LTK_70]

"Gearbox Boss" comes across like he talking straight from the sphincter.

I have both Steam and Impulse installed. I regularly browse the interwebs for deals from places like Direct 2 Drive and Good Old Games. I love me some Indy games and game mods too and follow their development on a constant basis.

http://store.steampowered.com/search/?genre=Indie

I see 239 listings. You know how many Indy games I used to see on the shelves of retail? Ya, I thought so.

As far as the percentage Steam is taking goes, here is something interesting for ya - Compare the various prices of Mount and Blade:

Taleworlds Entertainment Website: $33.60 CAD https://store3.esellerate.net/store/checkout/CustomLayout.aspx?s=STR6104314888&pc=&page=OnePageCatalog.htm
Steam: $29.99 USD http://store.steampowered.com/app/22100/
Impulse: $32.60 CAD? http://www.impulsedriven.com/mountblade
Direct 2 Drive: $5.00 USD? http://www.direct2drive.com/6680/product/Buy-Mount-and-Blade-Download

And for those who want their disc in hand:
Amazon: $11.17 USD?
27 new from $8.13 1 used from $10.99 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DF1AM8/ref=asc_df_B001DF1AM8930897?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&linkCode=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B001DF1AM8&tag=cnet-1744-20

So, now the real question is, when it comes to a online service for buying your game, who sets the price: Publisher or Developer? When the price on Steam/Impulse is consistent with the Developer's download price, what do you take from that? And how do you factor in the $5 price from D2D?

Honestly, how is this situation not shit tons better than what both the developers and customers are getting from retail? I say good on developer/publishers like Valve and Stardock and if others don't like them, do what they did, start a viable service like Steam and Impulse and release kick ass games with patch, content, and mod support.

So in conclusion to my rambling (for now): Screw you "Gearbox Boss", I have now just put your businesses games, http://www.gearboxsoftware.com/games/ , on the list of those I raise an eyebrow at before I even consider purchasing your products along with such luminaries like EA and Microsoft. Huh, they've made some alright above average, mostly average, and a few stinker games in the past, http://www.metacritic.com/search/process?sort=relevance&termtype=all&ts=gearbox&ty=3&button=search , I wonder if that has anything to do with this...

You can't really bring up one game from D2D anniversary sale as an argument. Even if you do, Steam's holiday sales in the past trump D2Drive's massively. As far as Amazon is concerned, I believe they dwarf even Valve in terms of capital size, so they can afford it.

However, I'm also curious as to what cut Valve is getting from other developers in Steam sales. I once wanted yo buy Mass Effect from Steam, to find that it was no less than twenty euros more expensive than in the US. They said it was because EA puts an extra fine on games sold in Europe. You have to consider that the other developers have the upper hand when it comes to selling games on Steam. Even though they have to pay Valve for selling their game online, it's their decision to offer them in the first place. Companies like Ubisoft and EA are successful enough to make a good profit (if not a massive one) from their games without Steam. I expect they would take their indirect financing of Valve into careful consideration when offering to sell their games by Steam, because in the end, they have to profit from it.

 

[Mylon]

Steam is where it is because it delivers what people want. It's easy to use, keeps games up to date, and has a lot of other nice features that make it attractive. If anyone can deliver something of similar quality, then people will use that as their purchasing platform.

 

[Angron]

Yeah, it's totally dangerous for a company that's known for its high-quality products (most of the time), attention to detail, and fanservice to actually get ahead in the industry. And Steam is exploiting people how exactly? Mind elaborating, Mr. Pitchford?

i think hes saying they take an unfair amount from game makers for distributing it on steam, but ive seen games become big cause of steam...

also i dont no why he wants MS, they take advantage of the game makers too, probably even worse than valve

 

[CanadianWolverine]

You can't really bring up one game from D2D anniversary sale as an argument. Even if you do, Steam's holiday sales in the past trump D2Drive's massively. As far as Amazon is concerned, I believe they dwarf even Valve in terms of capital size, so they can afford it.

However, I'm also curious as to what cut Valve is getting from other developers in Steam sales. I once wanted yo buy Mass Effect from Steam, to find that it was no less than twenty euros more expensive than in the US. They said it was because EA puts an extra fine on games sold in Europe. You have to consider that the other developers have the upper hand when it comes to selling games on Steam. Even though they have to pay Valve for selling their game online, it's their decision to offer them in the first place. Companies like Ubisoft and EA are successful enough to make a good profit (if not a massive one) from their games without Steam. I expect they would take their indirect financing of Valve into careful consideration when offering to sell their games by Steam, because in the end, they have to profit from it.

Yeah, sorry about not having the special holiday discount price numbers from Steam and Impulse too, I was just going with what is on their sites currently. Though, it seems that you are suggesting that D2D is taking a hit with its $5 price.

Unless you are talking market share instead of price point, which I would probably have to just say Steam earned its market share. We didn't always applaud Steam (some still don't) as one other poster mentioned. That market share comes from a combination of a long term record of good customer service, free content/patches, and being willing to be one of the first services to get DRM more or less correct in implementation.

And it is good you bring up the points on international sales. That whole thing is a can of ugly, nasty worms for the whole games industry. I feel bad for my fellow gamers around the world, Euros and Aussies get ganked and it sucks. I hope I am not out of line on blaming lawyers in some form or another for that SNAFU situation - you would think when it comes to digital content, the internet could get price points a little more in line with each other but when your country decides that X game distributor owes them some tax or tariff of some kind, not really sure what can be done there that wouldn't be seen as a company giving local govs the finger if they didn't stick that on your purchase. And how do they collect the reciepts on digital downloads anyways so the bookkeepers/accountants can decide who owes what? Ugh, and so of course, in the end its us the consumer that actually foots the bill.

Anyways, just came across this from an Indy developer interview, Unknown Worlds - Charlie "Flayra" Cleveland, on their upcoming release Natural Selection 2. It seems to run counter to the crap "Gearbox Boss" was spouting about small developers:

http://shfts.com/?p=1287

What part did the availability of digital distribution platforms like Steam play into Natural Selection 2 being made?

It made NS2 feasible. Without a big digital distribution platform like Steam, we wouldn?t be able to justify putting all the time, effort and money into a proper sequel deserving of the original. We will be releasing through our site and other portals as well, but we?re sure Steam will be the most popular by far.

 

[LTK_70]

Yeah, sorry about not having the special holiday discount price numbers from Steam and Impulse too, I was just going with what is on their sites currently. Though, it seems that you are suggesting that D2D is taking a hit with its $5 price.

Unless you are talking market share instead of price point, which I would probably have to just say Steam earned its market share. We didn't always applaud Steam (some still don't) as one other poster mentioned. That market share comes from a combination of a long term record of good customer service, free content/patches, and being willing to be one of the first services to get DRM more or less correct in implementation.

And it is good you bring up the points on international sales. That whole thing is a can of ugly, nasty worms for the whole games industry. I feel bad for my fellow gamers around the world, Euros and Aussies get ganked and it sucks. I hope I am not out of line on blaming lawyers in some form or another for that SNAFU situation - you would think when it comes to digital content, the internet could get price points a little more in line with each other but when your country decides that X game distributor owes them some tax or tariff of some kind, not really sure what can be done there that wouldn't be seen as a company giving local govs the finger if they didn't stick that on your purchase. And how do they collect the reciepts on digital downloads anyways so the bookkeepers/accountants can decide who owes what? Ugh, and so of course, in the end its us the consumer that actually foots the bill.

Anyways, just came across this from an Indy developer interview, Unknown Worlds - Charlie "Flayra" Cleveland, on their upcoming release Natural Selection 2. It seems to run counter to the crap "Gearbox Boss" was spouting about small developers:

http://shfts.com/?p=1287

What part did the availability of digital distribution platforms like Steam play into Natural Selection 2 being made?

It made NS2 feasible. Without a big digital distribution platform like Steam, we wouldn?t be able to justify putting all the time, effort and money into a proper sequel deserving of the original. We will be releasing through our site and other portals as well, but we?re sure Steam will be the most popular by far.

There's always the issue of infinite supply versus finite demand. If D2D lowers the price of some games to $5 (or 5 pounds in case of the UK site - which is a lot more than $5) they will make less profit per sold game, but they will also attract more customers who would not usually buy it, quite like I did. But that's beside the point.

Yeah, it sucks to be an Aussie, but there's one way out for Europeans which is changing currencies, like I mentioned elsewhere a couple of times. Buying from Steam these days is a lot more expensive than buying from D2D UK, because Steam charges in euros. $50 dollar games often get priced at ?45, while they're unquestionably worth less in euros. I don't quite understand what you mean by the receipts, though. I would expect digital data is easier to manage than data on retail copies.

You are absolutely right on the indie game scene on Steam. Another example is the game Zeno Clash made by ACE Team, an independent developer team that had been making mods and conversions for a while, but Steam and the Source engine that they built the game on finally enabled them to finalise their project and sell the game online, something they would never have been able to achieve without Steam. Digital distribution is the holy grail of indie game developers everywhere.

 

[L3m0n_L1m3]

He said he'd like to see Steam spun off from Valve as an independent entity, adding that it would be "much better if Steam was its own business."

What good would it do? It would still sell PC games to everyone, its only the companies who don't want Valve to showcase their games to thousands of users who think of actually buying the game rather then have it sit on a shelf because they didn't want to give Steam money for showcasing.

Pitchford admitted that Steam helps sell games but said he thinks the service creates an unavoidable conflict of interest for Valve and that the studio is using it to take unfair advantage of other developers, particular the smaller players.

Taking advantage sounds like Valve making 9$ while the developers of the game make 1$.

Anyone else thinking they're making Valve sound like some sort of power crazed Nazi?

It seems a lot of people are trying to do something like that, and make the games the Nazi underlings who kill babies.

 

[BigT65]

Eh... I wouldn't say Valve is winning, yeah Steam is nice, and they make good games(reviewers' opinions, not mine) but there are bigger developers out there. Oh, and Microsoft running Steam would be a pretty bad idea.

 

[Boxinatorizore]

hell, the whole thing stinks. anybody remember a certain "episodic" game, sold in 10 dollar chunks? what would have happened if that strategy had worked? how many "chapters" would there have been before we got the whole game? 10? 11? what I'm getting at is this: steam is evil,
because if the people running it had their way, we would all be paying sooo much money for our games...hmm, I seem to recall some dude saying we gamers are getting too much game for our money, it was an article here somewhere

Yes but eadch of those chapters was about 5 hours of gameplay... so 10 chapters would be around hmmm 50 hours of gameplay, which is a lot for an fps, so you'd be paying $100 but getting like 4 times as more than other games.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

A lot of you are not actually reading the complaints he is leveling, he isn't addressing Valve as a game developer but as the single owner of the Steam service. Valve's game quality has little to no bearing in this discussion. Take a minute, read what he has to say san the rose tinted glasses and then comment.

That said, I really enjoy Steam. I think it rides the fence well between giving me value in return for giving up some software rights. However I can see how the conflict of interest is actually holding the service back. Game developers want to put their games on Steam because it's popular, but this means that they are directly financing their competition. This would be akin to say, Wall-mart selling TVs at Best Buy. Sure they are still making money, but they are also having to pay are share of that off to someone who also sells TVs.

I'd be interested in finding how how much of a cut that Steam takes, Apple for instance takes 30% on iTunes app sales.

The only problem with that posistion? None of these people 'compete' with Valve. You don't 'compete' with Valve. Thats like trying to 'Compete' with Michael Jordan or the Harlem Globetrotters on the court. Valve has a huge saturation for it's admittedly -VERY FEW- products which almost always set the BAR for the competitors to play catchup on. And yes, I am saying Valve's games are so good no other group should -attempt- to compete with them and accept their secondary posistion. Vavle has simply become an immovable fixture in the industry, and if their "cheating" of the "little guy" that they give millions of dollars worth of exposure to is the price to be paid for them to keep making games in their low quantity high quality fashion? Then screw the little guy.

Steam is where it is because it delivers what people want. It's easy to use, keeps games up to date, and has a lot of other nice features that make it attractive. If anyone can deliver something of similar quality, then people will use that as their purchasing platform.

Also, this. Welcome to the free market, quit bitching and get a tampon.

 

[Tdc2182]

I don't know about this. Valve really seems like one of the only video game companies out there really thinking about the costumers. This is getting rediculous, they are the most attacked company and yet make the most changes just for the clients.

 

[Escapefromwhatever]

I like how Steam operates, at least towards its customers, but I could see a lot of corrupt internal politics and behind-the-scenes deals going on. What I find odd about this, however, is that Gearbox developed both Half-Life expansions, so its weird seeing them risking ostracizing themselves from Valve like this.

Yeah, it's totally dangerous for a company that's known for its high-quality products (most of the time), attention to detail, and fanservice to actually get ahead in the industry. And Steam is exploiting people how exactly? Mind elaborating, Mr. Pitchford?

Obviously, he's being coy about his criticisms, but I'm pretty sure that he's implying that Valve is charging people too much to sell their games on Steam, specifically indie companies.