Geek Remix: Undyne the Undying an Undertale Theory
- Thread starter Geek Remix
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I know that some people will go ?oh man that means alphys is evil?. And I disagree. Alphys did it because she cares and loves about Undyne. But alphys is also a weirdo and evil scientist. So she did it in this really round about way to protect undyne.
The majority of people, and well written characters, are never evil or good. They?re just people who make decisions with good intentions in the context of complicated lives.
I hope no one jumps to the conclusion that things are horrible and bad. And I feel like a lot of people do that just to make a story more dramatic when it is already dramatic enough. It?s just a thing that happened.
And the theory is just a theory anyway. You don?t need to believe it.
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Also. In B4 "I havn't played undertale but it's a bad game and here is why"
The majority of people, and well written characters, are never evil or good. They?re just people who make decisions with good intentions in the context of complicated lives.
I hope no one jumps to the conclusion that things are horrible and bad. And I feel like a lot of people do that just to make a story more dramatic when it is already dramatic enough. It?s just a thing that happened.
And the theory is just a theory anyway. You don?t need to believe it.
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Also. In B4 "I havn't played undertale but it's a bad game and here is why"
Take this post as friendly counter points rather than a "no ur wrong!" post, I like fan theories and would just like to offer some of my own.
It kinda falls apart when you take into account that the 'determination" alphys injecting into her test subjects was extracted from the human souls and not sea grass. I believe the note in the true lab says it like so " I did it, using the human souls I isolated the power that allows them to persist after death, the will to change fate, I'll call this power "determination."
And to the point of mettaton feeling betrayed for some reason, you can disprove this since his attitude towards alphys can be explained by his stardom going to his head making him think less of his friends such as alphys, naptsablook and shyren (who in his diaries says he was going to rise to fame as a group but instead goes it alone when alphys builds the basic mettaton body).
The body alphys is talking about in the true lab can be explained away as the stable version of mettaton ex, when you finish the fight with mettaton he says that the form is incomplete and is power inefficient.
I think the pink goop is really just an as the story describes it a basic machine that turns sea weed into ice cream (somehow) since it seems that alphys has completely given up any experimentation after all her experiments were a complete failure, this can be show by inspecting her regular lab, her workstation on the second level as you inspect it is describes as being dusty and seems to have not been use for a long time.
Also the human dying in the sea grass can have some doubt cast on it since you can find the dusty tutu under a water fall at the very beginning of the waterfall zone.
My final point is that determination is a thing that monsters can develop on their own, undyne has it cause she is filled with determination to save the underground from its fate of being locked up forever, she is after all the "heroine that never gives up".
You also have to think about "boss" monsters as described by the plaques littered throughout waterfall, boss monsters are unique monsters who have a soul that can persist after death if only for a few moments. this leads to the conclusion that "boss" monsters like toriel and asgore also have small amounts of determination as well. This show that monsters have and have had determination before alphys ever started her experimentation's.
It kinda falls apart when you take into account that the 'determination" alphys injecting into her test subjects was extracted from the human souls and not sea grass. I believe the note in the true lab says it like so " I did it, using the human souls I isolated the power that allows them to persist after death, the will to change fate, I'll call this power "determination."
And to the point of mettaton feeling betrayed for some reason, you can disprove this since his attitude towards alphys can be explained by his stardom going to his head making him think less of his friends such as alphys, naptsablook and shyren (who in his diaries says he was going to rise to fame as a group but instead goes it alone when alphys builds the basic mettaton body).
The body alphys is talking about in the true lab can be explained away as the stable version of mettaton ex, when you finish the fight with mettaton he says that the form is incomplete and is power inefficient.
I think the pink goop is really just an as the story describes it a basic machine that turns sea weed into ice cream (somehow) since it seems that alphys has completely given up any experimentation after all her experiments were a complete failure, this can be show by inspecting her regular lab, her workstation on the second level as you inspect it is describes as being dusty and seems to have not been use for a long time.
Also the human dying in the sea grass can have some doubt cast on it since you can find the dusty tutu under a water fall at the very beginning of the waterfall zone.
My final point is that determination is a thing that monsters can develop on their own, undyne has it cause she is filled with determination to save the underground from its fate of being locked up forever, she is after all the "heroine that never gives up".
You also have to think about "boss" monsters as described by the plaques littered throughout waterfall, boss monsters are unique monsters who have a soul that can persist after death if only for a few moments. this leads to the conclusion that "boss" monsters like toriel and asgore also have small amounts of determination as well. This show that monsters have and have had determination before alphys ever started her experimentation's.
Good Point all around.Corven said:
Someone on youtube pointed out that the seaweed can be an "alternative source" for determination. A more ethical source that Alphys has been using. One that is less harmful to everyone involved. AKA vegan DETERMINATION.
Also yeah I think discrediting monsters for lacking in determination might be an error on my part. However, is determination even what we really think it is?
It's kinda like how "do robots have souls" or "do dogs have souls"? A thing can have all the aspects of what people consider to having a soul. It doesn't make their existence less valid. And maybe a soul isn't important at all anyway. Evil people have souls, right? (assuming souls are real but i'm talking about in the context of scifi and fantasy fiction)
Great theory, in general Alphys seems much more smarter and almost more scientifically ruthless than she lets on initially. The chances of one of the children who fell down was wearing a ballet outfit (considering both the shoes and Old Tutu) is high, and one of the souls is clearly a fan of ballet. It becomes quite a dark story when you think about it...
I suppose in some ways to add onto the theory, Undyne herself might have killed the previous child, on purpose or on accident, though there might be something in the game that contradicts that. She told Alphys, who got the idea about the sea grass. It may be why Undyne doesn't particularly like the tall grass and why she acts weird when talking about ballet shoes. Getting the child's soul might have been the action that got her the position in the first place. Undyne's nature seems to be one of liking a good fight but is somewhat hesitant to actually kill anyone- that is until you go on the "Bad Kid" run and she starts trying to kill you for realsies.
As someone above me said it's not a bulletproof theory but certainly something that adds an interesting facet to the story and Undyne's character if you pick up and run with it.
I suppose in some ways to add onto the theory, Undyne herself might have killed the previous child, on purpose or on accident, though there might be something in the game that contradicts that. She told Alphys, who got the idea about the sea grass. It may be why Undyne doesn't particularly like the tall grass and why she acts weird when talking about ballet shoes. Getting the child's soul might have been the action that got her the position in the first place. Undyne's nature seems to be one of liking a good fight but is somewhat hesitant to actually kill anyone- that is until you go on the "Bad Kid" run and she starts trying to kill you for realsies.
As someone above me said it's not a bulletproof theory but certainly something that adds an interesting facet to the story and Undyne's character if you pick up and run with it.
It's a really sad situation overall. It's a bunch of good people stuck in a bad situation. And they are so desperate to get out, that they do things they hate themselves for doing.hentropy said:
They did it the same way Sans turned cat tails (water sausages) into hotdogs. xDCorven said:
>
Magic! [sub][sub][sub]and some science/cooking[/sub][/sub][/sub]OT: I don't think the "ice cream" had Determination in it. If the sea grass had Determination wouldn't it have been alive like Flowey? Though, I guess you could argue they'd need to have a monster die near the area for that to work like that, but I'm still skeptical about it.
However, maybe it did do something to increase Undyne's own "natural" Determination levels. Alphys may not even have known about it since she was also eating it.
Alphys also mentions that the monsters melted because of they couldn't handle THOSE levels of Determination, so maybe that means they could have enough to do what Undyne did. Boss Monsters have enough to have their souls persist a little bit after death, so maybe Undyne was able to get enough in that moment to do what she did.
Humans seem to be able to get Determination by just playing around in leaves, so I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to say Undyne got enough on the edge of her death. That combined with Determination enhancing Ice Cream may have given her the edge she needed.
Or maybe Undyne is just that awesome. She is a humanoid talking magic fish lady after all.
I like the idea that even Alphys didn't know. It's just weird that there is not an actual ITEM that is the shoes. But only Undyne knows about them. And the room is called "room_water_shoe". So it makes me feel like the shoe is important.Imp Emissary said:They did it the same way Sans turned cat tails (water sausages) into hotdogs. xDCorven said:
>
OT: I don't think the "ice cream" had Determination in it. If the sea grass had Determination wouldn't it have been alive like Flowey? Though, I guess you could argue they'd need to have a monster die near the area for that to work like that, but I'm still skeptical about it.
However, maybe it did do something to increase Undyne's own "natural" Determination levels. Alphys may not even have known about it since she was also eating it.
Alphys also mentions that the monsters melted because of they couldn't handle THOSE levels of Determination, so maybe that means they could have enough to do what Undyne did. Boss Monsters have enough to have their souls persist a little bit after death, so maybe Undyne was able to get enough in that moment to do what she did.
Humans seem to be able to get Determination by just playing around in leaves, so I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to say Undyne got enough on the edge of her death. That combined with Determination enhancing Ice Cream may have given her the edge she needed.
Or maybe Undyne is just that awesome. She is a humanoid talking magic fish lady after all.
I need this. And thank you!Zjarcal said:
I may be just hoping that she wouldn't knowing put Undyne in that kind of danger without her consent, but it would be weird for her to also be eating the "ice cream" too. Plus, Undyne seems like she would be up for it if Alphys asked her.geekremix_Mari said:I like the idea that even Alphys didn't know. It's just weird that there is not an actual ITEM that is the shoes. But only Undyne knows about them. And the room is called "room_water_shoe". So it makes me feel like the shoe is important.Imp Emissary said:They did it the same way Sans turned cat tails (water sausages) into hotdogs. xDCorven said:
>
OT: I don't think the "ice cream" had Determination in it. If the sea grass had Determination wouldn't it have been alive like Flowey? Though, I guess you could argue they'd need to have a monster die near the area for that to work like that, but I'm still skeptical about it.
However, maybe it did do something to increase Undyne's own "natural" Determination levels. Alphys may not even have known about it since she was also eating it.
Alphys also mentions that the monsters melted because of they couldn't handle THOSE levels of Determination, so maybe that means they could have enough to do what Undyne did. Boss Monsters have enough to have their souls persist a little bit after death, so maybe Undyne was able to get enough in that moment to do what she did.
Humans seem to be able to get Determination by just playing around in leaves, so I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to say Undyne got enough on the edge of her death. That combined with Determination enhancing Ice Cream may have given her the edge she needed.
Or maybe Undyne is just that awesome. She is a humanoid talking magic fish lady after all.
I need this. And thank you!Zjarcal said:
Also, :/ Anime isn't real. I couldn't lie to Undyne after making Alphys confess.
-_- But that's okay.
Undyne, Empress of Anime!
[http://s105.photobucket.com/user/ihatephotob1/media/Undyne_zpstcbnx9ya.png.html]
Actually. Undertale's world includes magic monsters, demons, time travel, and human mages. So it also having giant robots and magical princesses isn't that much more of a stretch.
Maybe, in Undertale, Anime IS real. :3
Wait wait. Anime is real. It's all documentaries.... right?Imp Emissary said:I may be just hoping that she wouldn't knowing put Undyne in that kind of danger without her consent, but it would be weird for her to also be eating the "ice cream" too. Plus, Undyne seems like she would be up for it if Alphys asked her.geekremix_Mari said:I like the idea that even Alphys didn't know. It's just weird that there is not an actual ITEM that is the shoes. But only Undyne knows about them. And the room is called "room_water_shoe". So it makes me feel like the shoe is important.Imp Emissary said:They did it the same way Sans turned cat tails (water sausages) into hotdogs. xDCorven said:
>
OT: I don't think the "ice cream" had Determination in it. If the sea grass had Determination wouldn't it have been alive like Flowey? Though, I guess you could argue they'd need to have a monster die near the area for that to work like that, but I'm still skeptical about it.
However, maybe it did do something to increase Undyne's own "natural" Determination levels. Alphys may not even have known about it since she was also eating it.
Alphys also mentions that the monsters melted because of they couldn't handle THOSE levels of Determination, so maybe that means they could have enough to do what Undyne did. Boss Monsters have enough to have their souls persist a little bit after death, so maybe Undyne was able to get enough in that moment to do what she did.
Humans seem to be able to get Determination by just playing around in leaves, so I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to say Undyne got enough on the edge of her death. That combined with Determination enhancing Ice Cream may have given her the edge she needed.
Or maybe Undyne is just that awesome. She is a humanoid talking magic fish lady after all.
I need this. And thank you!Zjarcal said:
Also, :/ Anime isn't real. I couldn't lie to Undyne after making Alphys confess.
-_- But that's okay.
Undyne, Empress of Anime!
[http://s105.photobucket.com/user/ihatephotob1/media/Undyne_zpstcbnx9ya.png.html]
Actually. Undertale's world includes magic monsters, demons, time travel, and human mages. So it also having giant robots and magical princesses isn't that much more of a stretch.
Maybe, in Undertale, Anime IS real. :3
RIGHT!?
I liked the first bit about how in the genocide playthrough she melts like the amalgamates. It fits and doesn't contradict with anything which i liked.
Everything past that seemed way way too complex and blind. I mean what about every other weapon? Did the turtle kill one of the kids? What about the ones in hot land? If that child died alone in the seaweed why does she "show up" during the fight with flowey. If they monsters are... monstrous and just left the dead child in the grass whats with the coffin with her color on it? Alphys seems to really regret what happened to the amalgamates is she slowly poisoning her fantasy girlfriend for fun? If true is their whole relationship a sham because she needed a live test subject? Why the person who when she found out would probably murder you with her pinky? Why do you need to help get Alphys and Undyne in order to gain her friendship if Alphys doesn't really care about her? Why do you think Mettaton resents Alphys? Why does it matter?
SO MANY QUESTIONS!
You know whats really simple?
Alphys: "The crazy kid is coming and hes going to kill you too! Here let me inject you with some determination. It's terribly dangerous but you just might hold on."
You could even argue Undyne is the only monster with determination since her backstory reeks of it.
Everything past that seemed way way too complex and blind. I mean what about every other weapon? Did the turtle kill one of the kids? What about the ones in hot land? If that child died alone in the seaweed why does she "show up" during the fight with flowey. If they monsters are... monstrous and just left the dead child in the grass whats with the coffin with her color on it? Alphys seems to really regret what happened to the amalgamates is she slowly poisoning her fantasy girlfriend for fun? If true is their whole relationship a sham because she needed a live test subject? Why the person who when she found out would probably murder you with her pinky? Why do you need to help get Alphys and Undyne in order to gain her friendship if Alphys doesn't really care about her? Why do you think Mettaton resents Alphys? Why does it matter?
SO MANY QUESTIONS!
You know whats really simple?
Alphys: "The crazy kid is coming and hes going to kill you too! Here let me inject you with some determination. It's terribly dangerous but you just might hold on."
You could even argue Undyne is the only monster with determination since her backstory reeks of it.
The seaweed theory is fantastic. I love it
My two cents on the general points in the comments
1) Flowey gained sentience because it came from the human world and had Assriel's ashes spread over him. So the same wouldn't happen to other plants injected with determination.
2) The monsters injected with determination were dying, and for a short while revived without any apparent melting side effects. So maybe after becoming Undyne the Undying, she would've eventually melted anyways even after defeating you.
3) None of the characters except Assgore act like they killed someone before. The second to last human must have fallen down when everyone was a child or before that (10 or 20+ years ago). Boss monsters without children don't age and Sans says Toriel laughed "like it was the best joke she heard in a houndread years"; so she must have left Assgore a long, long time ago, because we know how accurate Sans can be with this, right?
My two cents on the general points in the comments
1) Flowey gained sentience because it came from the human world and had Assriel's ashes spread over him. So the same wouldn't happen to other plants injected with determination.
2) The monsters injected with determination were dying, and for a short while revived without any apparent melting side effects. So maybe after becoming Undyne the Undying, she would've eventually melted anyways even after defeating you.
3) None of the characters except Assgore act like they killed someone before. The second to last human must have fallen down when everyone was a child or before that (10 or 20+ years ago). Boss monsters without children don't age and Sans says Toriel laughed "like it was the best joke she heard in a houndread years"; so she must have left Assgore a long, long time ago, because we know how accurate Sans can be with this, right?
In Undertale? They just might be real. Maybe.geekremix_Mari said:
Ah dear.....This is awkward.....
The reason I said that about the genocide run is because one of the game testers said that to me. So I assumed he had heard it directly from Toby.Siesta45 said:
Nice idea. Strange, but plausible.
Here's my theory: Undyne is a Spirit Bomb.
Massive spoilers:
Here's my theory: Undyne is a Spirit Bomb.
Massive spoilers:
It is revealed, at the end of the True Pacifist run, that "just about every monster soul" combined together equals one human soul. You, being the murderous bugger you've been in the "genocide" run, slaughtered every soul in the other parts of the world, and terrified the rest into hiding (including Alphys and Asgore). The souls of the lost and the fallen gathered together their last remaining will, similar to the six other human souls in the OmegaFlowey battle. The culmination of collected souls, slaughtered and terrorized by you, combined together to grant Undyne, their chosen champion, Human-like DETERMINATION, letting her not only will herself back into existence, but dramatically increase her powers, similar to the way Asgore, Flowey, and Asriel absorbed human souls in the other endings. We know that monster souls can indeed will their strength to other monsters, through the explanation of how monsters breed in the underlabs, and the existence of the three ghosts and especially Mettaton, who is "invincible" in the pacifist run.
This theory is further supported by her amalgam-like melting when her True Hero form dies. Her new, fused body technically IS an amalgam, created naturally by the enduring willpower of the destroyed monsters for whom she fights, rather than the machinations of science/meddling.
This also explains why Undyne had no knowledge of past "loops", like Sans (and presumably Flowey, Alphys, and Asgore) did, and couldn't manipulate SAVE/LOAD like Flowey: her DETERMINATION, her ersatz human soul, was incomplete. Unlike Asriel, who literally did absorb "every monster soul", Undyne had only fragments given to her by their dying wishes.
This theory is further supported by her amalgam-like melting when her True Hero form dies. Her new, fused body technically IS an amalgam, created naturally by the enduring willpower of the destroyed monsters for whom she fights, rather than the machinations of science/meddling.
This also explains why Undyne had no knowledge of past "loops", like Sans (and presumably Flowey, Alphys, and Asgore) did, and couldn't manipulate SAVE/LOAD like Flowey: her DETERMINATION, her ersatz human soul, was incomplete. Unlike Asriel, who literally did absorb "every monster soul", Undyne had only fragments given to her by their dying wishes.