Gena Davis institute on Gender in media tries to link violent games to mass shootings and police violence

Silvanus

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Are they? Because I'm pretty sure I showed they're very much not more sexualised than their real world counterparts.
😂

No, you showed about 3 pictures of women wearing similar revealing clothes. Which is about as compelling as me posting 3 photos of wrestlers wearing sparkling spandex and then arguing that the "real world counterparts" of the male fighters wear sparkling spandex so they should too.

So if you wish to argue they are care to show me what women who are members of secret ninja clans look like in real life?
Or how about what magical Tengu what to magical Tengu women look like in real life?
It's already been addressed that a comparison with real-world counterparts is completely unnecessary and irrelevant.


Yet it was your question regarding martial artists and bikinis. As I pointed out UFC women's fighters class as martial artists and fight in basically sports bras and booty shorts. Do they not count?
What does that have to do with "never wearing a bikini ever", which was your inane question?


As for titillating men? Is there something wrong with that?
There's something pretty damn tiresome about it when it dominates character design over and over and over and over and over again, for decades, to the detriment of imagination and variety.
 

Gergar12

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Congratulations, you failed at college.
If I wanted to learn something I will google it, or look it up. Anytime a professor challenged my beliefs I would note it, and move on. I started on being non-politically correct, yet on the left, and I will end not being politically correct, and on the left.
 
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Avnger

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If I wanted to learn something I will google it, or look it up. Anytime a professor challenged my beliefs I would note it, and move on. I started on being non-politically correct, yet on the left, and I will end not being politically correct, and on the left.
Why are you repeating what Terminal Blue said but with more words as if its a denial?
 

Gergar12

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Why are you repeating what Terminal Blue said but with more words as if its a denial?
I am not denying it. I am clarifying my position. What do I have to explain everything to you as if you are a two-year-old.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Are you sure, because this really, REALLY doesn't look like getting over it. In fact, it kind of looks like being morbidly obsessed. How many women do you think are on the internet typing furiously about how putting Tifa being in a sports bra is ruining their experience?

It's been pretty consistently shown that female audiences, regardless of bra size, don't tend to like oversexualized female characters. At best, they tolerated them when they had no choice, but female audiences have choices and market influence now. Also, while this is anecdotal, in my experience, women with big boobs (especially skinny, conventionally attractive women with big boobs) tend to be particularly sensitive to objectification because they experience it on a daily basis.
See now part of the issue was the changes were made because people couldn't get over it. It's not big boobs bothering me so I've got nothing to "get over" in that regard. My issue is with the changes which I do have to question your position of in essence "You're not allowed to object to the changes" for some nebulous reason.

How many women are furiously typing? I dunno I can point to Genna Bain initially being a bit disappointed by the changes.

As for female audiences not liking female characters they see as overly sexualised well again that may well only be some sectors of women polled. Also wasn't that claim from the Wiseman and Burch research than was never actually published or sent for peer review as just from them initially doing a presentation on it publicly people found abnormalities in the research methodology?

But hey it couldn't possible be a side effect of a culture pushing the idea that sexy or sexuality is a bad thing or anything right? It's not a though we have fairly well established psychology research onto the ideas about conformity or anything.


That entirely depends on what you consider to be "harmful".

You've misunderstood cultivation theory. Cultivation theory isn't the same thing as the "media brainwashing" alleged by right wing conspiracy theories and Christian moralists. A piece of media can't be responsible for a person's actions. It can't take away a person's self-control or fundamentally change who they are. It can't force them to do something they wouldn't otherwise do.
Well it's what Anita has presented as part of her claims. Otherwise why bring up the rape and domestic violence stats she does?

Cultivation theory is the idea that narrative can influence the way you think about the world, which is undeniably true. The classic example is that people who watch a lot of true crime shows, or even fictional crime dramas, tend to think that crime is more prevalent than it really is and to overestimate their risk of falling victim to it. Men who watch a lot of pornography tend to rate the attractiveness of their own sexual partners lower and report less satisfying sex lives. Developing parasocial relationships for fictional characters can make you more sympathetic to real people whose experiences resemble those characters. All of these effects are extremely well documented and easily demonstrable.
And yet from an educational development perspective they are all just schema which can be broken and changed as the environment necessitates and reality shows.

One persons watching lots of crime documentaries makes the crime part of their reality remove them from the shows somewhat and their perspective changes because they experience the reality of the world rather than the reality the shows present more.

Fictional characters plights helps develop schema to understand said experiences better.

Throwing academics at me isn't terrible persuasive, even by the standards of appeals to authority. Being a "20 year veteran" doesn't mean anything in academia except that you're either a burned out wasted husk of a human being or a complete hack. Give me a full text citation or don't bother.
Well you can check his name, I did give it to you, basically most of his work addresses the subject or various aspects of it


The US military spends incredible, unfeasible amount of money subsidizing Hollywood films, both in raw finance and in the use of actual military equipment and personnel. The conditions attached to this is that the film's messaging has to be approved by the military. A film that paints the military in a bad light or doesn't align with what the military thinks are its own ethical standards doesn't get subsidies. This means that anti-war or anti-military films cost more to make, meaning fewer such films get made, meaning the public is overwhelmingly exposed to media which presents the military in a particular way.
And the moment you remove it and stop the spell starts to break, because that is how fragile the spell is.

And its insidious. All of the Iron Man films, for example, received military subsidies. There's no scene where Tony Stark says "hey guys, you should all sign up for the army and die for the glorious motherland." There doesn't need to be. The military are there in the background, they're presented as good honest people doing their best. No difficult questions are asked, and then we move on to a man dressing up in a big metal suit to punch bad guys.

That's the actual, real, dangerous form of propaganda. The stuff you see on North Korean state television is the equivalent of Infowars. It works on the people who already believe it, or who have to believe it because otherwise they'll be sent to a camp. To really influence people, all you have to do is to ensure that the media they consume overwhelmingly leads to one particular conclusion, even it it takes many different paths to get there (in fact, especially if it takes many different paths to get there, because that illusionary plurality is more persuasive).
yet as a young child learns that not every man is Daddy, so too does a person learn and adapt so people will learn the military is a more nuanced thing of both good and terrible
 

Dwarvenhobble

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😂

No, you showed about 3 pictures of women wearing similar revealing clothes. Which is about as compelling as me posting 3 photos of wrestlers wearing sparkling spandex and then arguing that the "real world counterparts" of the male fighters wear sparkling spandex so they should too.
Which is still 3 more than you've shown to support your claims I will say.

Also one of Bass's outfits is a spandex wrestling costume lol

It's already been addressed that a comparison with real-world counterparts is completely unnecessary and irrelevant.
So it's fine then there are no issues as we're not bound by the conventions of reality. Thus the argument is invalid



What does that have to do with "never wearing a bikini ever", which was your inane question?
are they not alternative costumes in real life?



There's something pretty damn tiresome about it when it dominates character design over and over and over and over and over again, for decades, to the detriment of imagination and variety.
Ah so artists must be made to make something else?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Ah so artists must be made to make something else?
That's how wage labor works. Always has. Don't like it, go indie. You know, "make your own"?
But hey it couldn't possible be a side effect of a culture pushing the idea that sexy or sexuality is a bad thing or anything right? It's not a though we have fairly well established psychology research onto the ideas about conformity or anything.
Like the conformity of the massive sexualization of the female body that had fast food burger joints using sex to sell teriyaki burgers?
This argument goes both ways.

And the moment you remove it and stop the spell starts to break, because that is how fragile the spell is.


yet as a young child learns that not every man is Daddy, so too does a person learn and adapt so people will learn the military is a more nuanced thing of both good and terrible
*Looks at the state of USA politics*
*sad lmao*
I am not denying it. I am clarifying my position. What do I have to explain everything to you as if you are a two-year-old.
Because we're trying to figure out how you've come to believe in the feminist conspiracy to radically alter the social order for unspecified nefarious purposes via infiltrating video games and making people criticize anime games featuring sexy high school girls
 

Dwarvenhobble

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That's how wage labor works. Always has. Don't like it, go indie. You know, "make your own"?
Except generally you also want it to sell and like it or not Sex still sells. Otherwise Fifty Shades of Grey wouldn't have managed a 3 film trilogy lol

Like the conformity of the massive sexualization of the female body that had fast food burger joints using sex to sell teriyaki burgers?
This argument goes both ways.
Worth pointing out that's more commercialisation of it.

*Looks at the state of USA politics*
*sad lmao*
True, on both sides of it lol

Because we're trying to figure out how you've come to believe in the feminist conspiracy to radically alter the social order for unspecified nefarious purposes via infiltrating video games and making people criticize anime games featuring sexy high school girls
As I pointed out and showed videos form. Video games to some seems just like a vector to try and get what they want and spread wider changes. I mean is it a conspiracy when they're on stage saying "It's not about video games not really it's about changing culture" ?
 

Hawki

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And its insidious. All of the Iron Man films, for example, received military subsidies. There's no scene where Tony Stark says "hey guys, you should all sign up for the army and die for the glorious motherland." There doesn't need to be. The military are there in the background, they're presented as good honest people doing their best. No difficult questions are asked, and then we move on to a man dressing up in a big metal suit to punch bad guys.
Not saying you're wrong, but the military in all three films is generally portrayed as inept.

First film, does nothing but have some soldiers killed. It's apolitical on the presence of US troops in Afghanistan, but it's more negative towards arms sales. That, and the military doesn't accomplish anything.

Second film, Stark refuses to give his tech to the US military (and we're meant to agree with him), and the military instead lets Hammer sells them drones, who go berserk, and are stopped by Iron Man and War Machine. Again, military is inept.

Third film, I don't recall the military actually featuring, but if it does, it fails to accomplish anything. Iron Patriot goes back to being War Machine, president is captured, the Mandarin fools everyone, etc.

None of the above films have an anti-war message, but they're hardly pro-military either. Which isn't surprising, since superhero fare generally relies on most law enforcement and military forces being useless against the antagonists.
 

Gordon_4

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Not saying you're wrong, but the military in all three films is generally portrayed as inept.

First film, does nothing but have some soldiers killed. It's apolitical on the presence of US troops in Afghanistan, but it's more negative towards arms sales. That, and the military doesn't accomplish anything.

Second film, Stark refuses to give his tech to the US military (and we're meant to agree with him), and the military instead lets Hammer sells them drones, who go berserk, and are stopped by Iron Man and War Machine. Again, military is inept.

Third film, I don't recall the military actually featuring, but if it does, it fails to accomplish anything. Iron Patriot goes back to being War Machine, president is captured, the Mandarin fools everyone, etc.

None of the above films have an anti-war message, but they're hardly pro-military either. Which isn't surprising, since superhero fare generally relies on most law enforcement and military forces being useless against the antagonists.
They tend to show up only if they have genuine relevance. Tony Stark starts as a tech mogul arms dealer, so of course he's selling to the US Military. They have maybe three to ten seconds of screen time in The Avengers. Captain America the First Avenger takes place in World War II and the character is inexorably linked to the propaganda apparatus of the day so yeah, military is there. In Age of Ultron, the Sokovia scenes seem to have that Cold War era thing where the police and the army are kind of indistinguishable in terms of their uniform and armament. And the South African Army (?) show up when the Hulk goes berko after Scarlet Witch got in his head before Hulk Buster arrived. There's a few generals in Ant-Man who I think are just Hydra agents anyway.

Basically the MCU did what I wished Transformers did and slowly eased out the armed forces. Whatever else one may say about the MCU - and a fair bit can be said - they recognised that the audience was there to watch the various superheroes do the whole saving of the day. Its kind of what one signs up for in the genre.
 
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Gergar12

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That's how wage labor works. Always has. Don't like it, go indie. You know, "make your own"?
Like the conformity of the massive sexualization of the female body that had fast food burger joints using sex to sell teriyaki burgers?
This argument goes both ways.


*Looks at the state of USA politics*
*sad lmao*

Because we're trying to figure out how you've come to believe in the feminist conspiracy to radically alter the social order for unspecified nefarious purposes via infiltrating video games and making people criticize anime games featuring sexy high school girls

Short answer: In either this video or a video made by this creator. The creator mentions feminists have no right power, but then he says they make suggestions to video games creators. That made me think that they have both the video game creator's ears, and thus can de facto lobby them for design changes.

Which I then tied to politics. The only way to win the insider game is to have at least two of the following; people in power willing to listen to you, and you willing to do so privately. Feminists have both for at least a portion of the video game industry vs people opposed to it(mainly male nerds) who don't. Thus they will win.

I don't believe the decline in skimpy clothing in games in western games is organic, I believe people made it happen via behind doors emailing. I don't know that, but just like the classified files, and the deep web(not the dark web), there are things going on that we can't see. Conversations, emails, and memos.

I also used to believe as long as you had LGBTQ porn alongside your straight porn, or skimpy male clothing alongside skimpy female clothing you could evade censorship, outrage, and etc. I don't believe this is true today. Bethesda was just brought by Microsoft, and they will not allow Loverslab, and like-wise mods to function as is the consensus among the Loverslab forum.
 

Avnger

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Short answer: In either this video or a video made by this creator. The creator mentions feminists have no right power, but then he says they make suggestions to video games creators. That made me think that they have both the video game creator's ears, and thus can de facto lobby them for design changes.
"I heard an offhand reference in an unsourced youtube video and invented a conspiracy from it that (magically) supports my pre-existing views."

Which I then tied to politics. The only way to win the insider game is to have at least two of the following; people in power willing to listen to you, and you willing to do so privately. Feminists have both for at least a portion of the video game industry vs people opposed to it(mainly male nerds) who don't. Thus they will win.
"Said conspiracy theory (again, magically) connects all of the dots to (wow, once again) mean I don't need any actual evidence!"

Also, the idea that "male nerds" don't exist and have power in the video game industry is fucking laughable. Take thirty seconds to do a google search on the makeup of game dev teams.

I don't believe the decline in skimpy clothing in games in western games is organic, I believe people made it happen via behind doors emailing. I don't know that, but just like the classified files, and the deep web(not the dark web), there are things going on that we can't see. Conversations, emails, and memos.
<More magical conspiracy theory created above means I can dismiss out of hand the complete lack of evidence nonsense>

I also used to believe as long as you had LGBTQ porn alongside your straight porn, or skimpy male clothing alongside skimpy female clothing you could evade censorship, outrage, and etc. I don't believe this is true today. Bethesda was just brought by Microsoft, and they will not allow Loverslab, and like-wise mods to function as is the consensus among the Loverslab forum.
Well if someone on an internet forum said it, it must be true!
 
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Gergar12

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"I heard an offhand reference in an unsourced youtube video and invented a conspiracy from it that (magically) supports my pre-existing views."



"Said conspiracy theory (again, magically) connects all of the dots to (wow, once again) mean I don't need any actual evidence!"

Also, the idea that "male nerds" don't exist and have power in the video game industry is fucking laughable. Take thirty seconds to do a google search on the makeup of game dev teams.



<More magical conspiracy theory created above means I can dismiss out of hand the complete lack of evidence nonsense>



Well if someone on an internet forum said it, it must be true!
Your right I should have said male gamers who like skimpy clothing that isn't devs. Who have less power than feminist interest groups.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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"They shouldn't be listening to that group; they should be listening to my group!"
Entirely depends on what you're making and who you want your target demographic to be. Just don't do running to the press about how "The Toxic men refuse to see this film and that's why it failed" when the initial marketing was "This isn't a film for men who we deem Toxic".

I mean you can see it plenty of places.

DC's Stargirl has been kicking Batwoman's ass. Stargirl the show where they're not really doing the "raaa raa toxic men raa raaa women are better we're the upgrade who have been denied credit too long" is beating Batwoman despite the fact Batwoman was deemed a far more valuable IP than Stargirl.

Meanwhile if you want to make a feminist deck of playing cards or a game based on Chuck Tingle's works well they're more likely the base you want to listen to
 

Hawki

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“We attribute this decline to an increasing female interest in gaming coupled with the heightened criticism levied at the industry’s male hegemony,” the study’s authors write.

I am not making this up.
Doesn't that rule out the idea of some sinister cabal though?

More females are applying, so the industry shifts to accomodate them, because, among other things, you're going to get a bigger audience.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Except generally you also want it to sell and like it or not Sex still sells. Otherwise Fifty Shades of Grey wouldn't have managed a 3 film trilogy lol
Oh yes, the gamer boys loved Fifty Shades of Grey
As I pointed out and showed videos form. Video games to some seems just like a vector to try and get what they want and spread wider changes. I mean is it a conspiracy when they're on stage saying "It's not about video games not really it's about changing culture" ?
And the culture has changed dramatically: there's less random, passive sexualization of the female body, particularly the underaged anime ones, and there's a massive increase in active sexualization of adults of all body types as well as outright sex.

Like, maybe there's slightly less of a specific kind of sexualization that certain corners hold sacred, but there's oh so much more for everybody outside that niche.
Entirely depends on what you're making and who you want your target demographic to be. Just don't do running to the press about how "The Toxic men refuse to see this film and that's why it failed" when the initial marketing was "This isn't a film for men who we deem Toxic".

I mean you can see it plenty of places.

DC's Stargirl has been kicking Batwoman's ass. Stargirl the show where they're not really doing the "raaa raa toxic men raa raaa women are better we're the upgrade who have been denied credit too long" is beating Batwoman despite the fact Batwoman was deemed a far more valuable IP than Stargirl.
Uhh, Batwoman's first season had both higher ratings *and* more viewership than Stargirl's. They've got roughly equivalent viewer numbers for season 2 despite major cast shakeups for Batwoman. Honest question: do you watch Batwoman or are you relying entirely on YouTube "reviews"?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Doesn't that rule out the idea of some sinister cabal though?

More females are applying, so the industry shifts to accomodate them, because, among other things, you're going to get a bigger audience.
Look, it can't be that making minor changes to character design and characterization led to more women wanting to game because that would prove the feminists correct, and it can't be that more women becoming gamers has led to games being slightly modified to make more money because Get Woke Go Broke, so it must be solely the heightened criticism that's not based on those first two things.

EDIT: the fuck was up with my grammar?
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Oh yes, the gamer boys loved Fifty Shades of Grey
Ok replace it with any number of other franchises rather than being pedantic when the point was sex sells not that it only applies to one demographic.

And the culture has changed dramatically: there's less random, passive sexualization of the female body, particularly the underaged anime ones, and there's a massive increase in active sexualization of adults of all body types as well as outright sex.
and there are people still very pissed at that and wanting to see it censored. People on twitter pushing claims like The Witcher 3 gives you points for having sex with prostitutes

Like, maybe there's slightly less of a specific kind of sexualization that certain corners hold sacred, but there's oh so much more for everybody outside that niche.
Uhh, Batwoman's first season had both higher ratings *and* more viewership than Stargirl's. They've got roughly equivalent viewer numbers for season 2 despite major cast shakeups for Batwoman. Honest question: do you watch Batwoman or are you relying entirely on YouTube "reviews"?
So far Stargirl is holding up better actually despite also being on Prime and it started as a DC universe exclusive. With Batwoman I only need to see some of the clips that have been put out. Hell Batwoman's rating actually went lower that Stargirl's season 1 the average viewership was only higher due to the initial few episodes having more viewers.