Gena Davis institute on Gender in media tries to link violent games to mass shootings and police violence

Dreiko

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Okay, and how does that relate to "no politics in my games" crowd?
They're wrong for the same reason the group I'm talking about now is wrong. This group just wants one fewer sort of politics removed from games, and that one is the politics they subscribe to. They're literally inches apart. Both crowds are wrong. If you want me to say the no politics at all crowd is more wrong, sure I don't have anything to lose by establishing that, as long as it is also established that the other group is almost just as wrong.



I mean, think about it for half a second. How many stories we have where it's set in some medieval kingdom? Does that have to mean the artist is pro-autocracy? Is that reeeeealy them making a political statement? Or is it just a creative thing they do cause it fits the plot and makes for an interesting or familiar or cool story?

I see a ton of politics in games and other art form in much the same vein, you could construe it as political, but it's pretty ludicrous if you do. And no, the one autocratarian fantasy novelist who writes about a kingdom is not proof to the contrary either.
 

Hades

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Acting neutral/apolitical is literally the correct thing to do as a game company. You're not supposed to be people's thought leader, you're supposed to make fun or interesting videogames. It's not your place to tell people what attitudes they should hold. To put on companies this responsibility is undesirable. I am not interested in a company monitoring, regulating or opining about my behavior, in fact I actively dislike any such attempts as I see them as babying me despite my status as a grownup. Obviously others agree with this approach which is why you see the situation you describe.


Most such things companies engage in, they do so either due to legal pressure that was put on them by authoritarian governments like China, or due to a cynical calculation that doing so will attract enough authoritarian customers to make them profitable that way.


This is often why there's a dichotomy with gamers and political activists, people who prioritize politics are treating games as a means to an end, meanwhile we treat games as an end in an of itself. Games being the best they can be matters more than reducing random instances of sexism or racism that you can't even really draw a direct link to.
Being neutral/apolitical is boring. Nothing wrong with politics in games. In fact if you take out all the politics you're often left without nothing interesting at all. Taking this stance to its logical extreme leads you with nothing but bubble shooter, or a 2d Mario game. A lot of the time political themes in games can even enhance those games. Its no surprise that the overtly political Kojima is one of the most credited(though admittingly also most mocked) storytellers of gaming, Miles Moralis was aggressively woke but these themes fit the game like a glove, and Persona 5 wouldn't have worked without being so explicitly political in its themes. Similarly the Whitcher 3, among the most acclaimed western games out there required its story to be political because Geralt is constantly an outsider and he constantly associates with groups typically maligned by society. Whenever a game has something to say about its society politics are present, and whenever games don't do this the stories often aren't very interesting.

Now the typical argument from the ''get politics out of my games!'' crowd when hearing this typically changes to ''Oh we don't REALLY want politics out of games! We just don't want to be preached to!'' but that not an argument to put any trust in. Because the people who say this the loudest are the same people who often show they are the least able to judge whether political themes are simply there or trying to convert them. The sort of people who think that game after game about Americans shooting up brown people in the middle east says nothing, but two woman kissing in a trailer is an unbearable intrusion of politics into gaming. Who decides when political themes are merely present or whether they are used to concert the audience? And isn't this answer itself impacted by people's own sense of politics?
 
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Dreiko

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Being neutral/apolitical is boring. Nothing wrong with politics in games. In fact if you take out all the politics you're often left without nothing interesting at all. Taking this stance to its logical extreme leads you with nothing but bubble shooter, or a 2d Mario game. A lot of the time political themes in games can even enhance those games. Its no surprise that the overtly political Kojima is one of the most credited(though admittingly also most mocked) storytellers of gaming, Miles Moralis was aggressively woke but these themes fit the game like a glove, and Persona 5 wouldn't have worked without being so explicitly political in its themes. Similarly the Whitcher 3, among the most acclaimed western games out there required its story to be political because Geralt is constantly an outsider and he constantly associates with groups typically maligned by society. Whenever a game has something to say about its society politics are present, and whenever games don't do this the stories often aren't very interesting.

Now the typical argument from the ''get politics out of my games!'' crowd when hearing this typically changes to ''Oh we don't REALLY want politics out of games! We just don't want to be preached to!'' but that not an argument to put any trust in. Because the people who say this the loudest are the same people who often show they are the least able to judge whether political themes are simply there or trying to convert them. The sort of people who think that game after game about Americans shooting up brown people in the middle east says nothing, but two woman kissing in a trailer is an unbearable intrusion of politics into gaming. Who decides when political themes are merely present or whether they are used to concert the audience? And isn't this answer itself impacted by people's own sense of politics?
Right that's what I was saying too, I was saying games should be political if the devs find that trait interesting or decide it fits the story somehow, but companies or devs in real life don't need to be political too in order to make games be that way.


A good example of a game with political themes is Disco Elysium, I get the feeling that the game judges you very harshly sometimes, but it still does a good job of feeling believable and not overly preachy. It handles the issues with nuance and is very much about these issues. Now, I think I heard something about the devs being communists or something to that effect, but I literally don't need to learn or care about them personally to enjoy the game they made. Trying to focus on their politics and trying to paint this game as a cog in the war machine against capitalism cheapens the whole experience. I can easily do without that element going into the game. Even people who celebrate the game's function as that cog also cheapen it, also use it as a means to an end and not an end in and of itself. It is an insult to gaming and art.
 

09philj

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Right that's what I was saying too, I was saying games should be political if the devs find that trait interesting or decide it fits the story somehow, but companies or devs in real life don't need to be political too in order to make games be that way.


A good example of a game with political themes is Disco Elysium, I get the feeling that the game judges you very harshly sometimes, but it still does a good job of feeling believable and not overly preachy. It handles the issues with nuance and is very much about these issues. Now, I think I heard something about the devs being communists or something to that effect, but I literally don't need to or care about them personally to enjoy the game they made.
They shouted out Marx and Engels on stage at the Game Awards but you could probably have worked out their affiliation from playing the game anyway.
 
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Hades

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I think the ''take out politics out of my games'' crowd is fascinating in general. They often really don't know what they're talking about.

Last summer and then again during the Game Awards the anti politics crowd very strongly rallied against TLOU2 as an example of unacceptable intrusion of politics in the medium. They rallied against it as THE example of a game were politics was more important than making a good video game. To make a stand against TLOU2 this crows then strongly rallied behind Ghost of Tsushima which supposedly was the REAL gamers game for the REAL games and thus deserved every bit of support to show who this medium belonged to.

This despite the core theme of Ghost of Tsushima....being political, and the core theme of TLOU2 NOT being political.

The alt rage outrage was the most political thing about TLOU2. Its core theme had nothing to do with ''girl power'' where woman would show that evil Joel his place. The core theme of the game was a bog standard ''revenge is bad, m'kay!'' message. But the core message of Ghost of Tsushima is strongly anti traditionalist, its message is that Japan is in such turmoil because extreme adherence to tradition and class is stifling the country. The game also commits the supposedly deathly sin of purposely making its characters less beautiful and more ugly, which is a habit the alt right loudly despises but strangely decided to overlook this time around.
 

Dreiko

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They shouted out Marx and Engels on stage at the Game Awards but you could probably have worked out their affiliation from playing the game anyway.
No man, that's what I'm saying! I'm just tackling games as games, I separate the art from the artist. I can easily take in the game as just the creation of a creative person's imagination. I don't need to try and ascertain traits about their real life politics. It's a lot more fun to have it be in a vacuum like that and not taint it or bog it down with real world elements but just experience it like a closed dimension that has its own quirks.

You can easily make a game be as sarcastic as Disco is towards you for being a sexist asshole or an ignorant racist without needing to take those critical stances personally yourself, merely because such a game existing is interesting!


Also if I wanted to I could make a case for their real life politics being different if I just played the game and had no outside information cause they make a lot of the right wing options kinda crazy fun to do, like that whole dick carousel spiel had me chuckling like a 12 year old. The game is judging you all the way but it still seems to also get the joke too, which is not that "woke". It sometimes feels like the judgement is kinda obligatory, like a teacher warning you for misbehaving in a way that is technically bad but which they don't really mind all that much, while their eyes are laughing and they don't really mean it. Someone operating in bad faith has more than enough ammo to call em nazis basically.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Did she ever finish her tropes v woman youtube series?
On a techicality she did but in terms of the actual stated stuff to cover she left a number of bits on the cutting room floor.

30% is quite a lot imo. Those movie characters (Ramsay and Cypher, Millie in Free Guy, Julianne Moore's character from Assassins) are lightyears off realistic depictions. I'll add one more from the teen comedy The DUFF in which the """hacker""" gal pal can take down YouTube in two minutes in the school library. Lisbeth Salander too but for different reasons and imagine if a girl's image of a female nerd is Amy Fowler from The Big Bang Theory. In 24 Chloe "Jack I've got satellite" O'Brien was alright before quitting the CTU, and I'd call Grace Van Pelt from The Mentalist a decent example. And they weren't nerds. While gatekeeping such a title is ridiculous, it's still something that has an effect on work, leisure activities and personal relationships. Do people really want that? It can be a social sudoku for girls.
Oh I know they're very far off realistic depictions of hacking but hey aspirational movie characters often aren't that based in realism.

I will say another example who you have to admit is a nerd too would be Abby in NCIS


I mean some girls will be nerds / outcasts anyway it also is pretty weird these days it's still seen to some as social suicide especially for girls. I mean maybe that's a societal thing to fix. Hell at least 1 of the girls I know who did a computer Science course you really wouldn't call her a nerd in the traditional sense. I mean she had the massive number of previous injuries from a certain "extreme" sport to prove she's very much not the normal sitting behind a computer all the time nerd.
 

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I think the ''take out politics out of my games'' crowd is fascinating in general. They often really don't know what they're talking about.

Last summer and then again during the Game Awards the anti politics crowd very strongly rallied against TLOU2 as an example of unacceptable intrusion of politics in the medium. They rallied against it as THE example of a game were politics was more important than making a good video game. To make a stand against TLOU2 this crows then strongly rallied behind Ghost of Tsushima which supposedly was the REAL gamers game for the REAL games and thus deserved every bit of support to show who this medium belonged to.

This despite the core theme of Ghost of Tsushima....being political, and the core theme of TLOU2 NOT being political.

The alt rage outrage was the most political thing about TLOU2. Its core theme had nothing to do with ''girl power'' where woman would show that evil Joel his place. The core theme of the game was a bog standard ''revenge is bad, m'kay!'' message. But the core message of Ghost of Tsushima is strongly anti traditionalist, its message is that Japan is in such turmoil because extreme adherence to tradition and class is stifling the country. The game also commits the supposedly deathly sin of purposely making its characters less beautiful and more ugly, which is a habit the alt right loudly despises but strangely decided to overlook this time around.
It goes to show how fully stupid and idiotic these people truly are. Just because they're stupid does not stop from being terrible people. They're a whole bunch of want to be smart guys that think they know everything, but they don't know crap, as you said. While I do love Ghost of Tsushima, they're only using that game just to rally behind something. The moment it becomes useful no longer, those parasitic leeches will latch on to something else. I do dislike TLOUS2. Mainly, because it's just another grim and gritty, revenge story that thinks it's saying something, but it's not saying anything. It's a game stuck in the seventh generation of gaming where everything has to be dark and gritty for the sake of it and mean spirited. Ironic, because Ghost has revenge as a theme for some of the subplots and the actual main story that's woven into the narrows. That game does it better there than TLOUS2. Otherwise, neither of the games should be compared to each other.

Then there's getting into the fact, that a bunch of know nothing butt-holes complain about the politics in Miles Morales and claim that such "dangerous politics" or even mentioning of Black Lives Matter should not exist in video gaming. I find it funny that it's all sudden dangerous when it involves black people, women, or any people of color, or someone of a non-Christian religion. Thankfully, those people were called out on, and most people had no problem with the politics. The previous Spider-Man game have plenty of politics; especially the latest game.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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You're not paying attention. I did not say the employees became that way nor the executive that's hot for playing those games. All I'm saying is that they do exist at those companies. And when you stop ending everything with a freaking lol. Not everything can be written off with a laugh.

Second, I'm not equating the two together, but what I am saying is that those executives at top are more than happy to please a couple of races if it needs to get some more cash. Why do you think both Activision Blizzard and Ubisoft have that constant it's not about politics bull crap. Or we're apolitical or anti political nonsense. They are afraid of sending the all right and super ultra conservative. EA has done the same thing too. They're so scared of losing their goddamn money tree, that they're willing to please a couple racist just so they don't have to deal with the consequences. The video game didn't make them racist nor sexist, but there sure as hell not helping with the attitudes and encouraging them. Racism and sexism always existed in those company cultures. That's nothing that can be denied or downplayed. Either you get it or you don't dude. There's none of this sitting on the fence, middle of the road bullshit
Pat of the issue is often the claim of "Yes it's political" has been used to mean "Yes it's a political statement being made" and as one twitter user put it.


A better reply these days would be "It's non partisan" but that wouldn't work because "OMG you mean you're suggesting the MAGA crowd might be right in part and they're evil so you're evil" or something similar.

The whole "It's not political" is likely a carefully calculated claim because then yes it gets them mocked by some of the more hard-core Left wng people online but it doen't get them framed as monstrous villains just silly clowns and companies can somewhat take being seen as clowns as that's not inherently bad PR, it can even be good as it lowers expectations for quality because "Of course the clown company delivered something with bugs"
 

Dwarvenhobble

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There's also proof of me saying I hate videogames. Right here - I hate videogames. And I'm actually kinda serious.

But honestly, so the hell what? She said she hated videogames, then later on she said she loved videogames. How is this a gotcha? You can feel both, or change your mind, or just say it cuz who gives a shit. They're just fucking games, they aren't holy, or actual people. Saying you hate them doesn't damn one to never speak of them again.
If she didn't give credit to the people whose gaming footage she used, then yeah, that's bad form. But considering the amount of work that goes into writing and editing a video, using already existing footage is an easy short cut. Heck, if she only watched footage and criticized the gender roles in games based on that it would still be valid criticism.
When people claim "Well no you got this wrong, and this wrong and don't seem to know what you're talking about in how you're framing this or seem to not know the wider context of stuff going on" and you reply is "I'm an expect on this subject" well it does kinda undermine the claim when there are videos of her claiming to not be an expert mere years before. It's an appeal to authority fallacy where Anita placed herself as the authority.

Context matters and there's quite a few times Anita doesn't show true context.

One of the things she claimed was sexist was Tekken Tag Tournament's swimwear DLC

I'd suggest watching the trailer for it


In Anita's video she cut it so there was 0 footage of any of the male characters swimwear.

Similarly in one of the women as Background decoration videos Anita says how in one of the Just Cause games the game having female strippers is sexist and problematic. The footage doesn't however show in the same club not far away is a male Stripper too..

Context matter and well Tekken wasn't sexist because it happily gave the male characters swimwear too some of it more revealing than the womens.


And with the amount of vitriol she got I'm not surprised she turned off the comments section. But then I'm sure a lot of detractors only saw this as more reason to get pissed at her.
Oh, I don't wonder, I know exactly why. And it depends on which community you're talking about, because if it's the gaming or pretty much any other fan community, they can fuck right off. Gamers and geeks have been riding that vindictive wave for decades now, acting like games and comic book related properties are still in the 'shame' corner, and therefor they're allowed to be overly protective and hateful toward anyone they deem not a true fan. Just as Sarkeesian was labeled 'not a real gamer', indicating that she should therefor shut up and not say anything negative about it.
No people are getting fed up of people stomping in claiming to be experts, making bold and often inaccurate or outright false claims about the space and the properties and then demanding changes to accommodate them now.

E.G. a recent example I ran into.


Some-one who was claiming how gaming needs to change and is so offensive and oppressive presenting themselves initially as an expert or big fan of gaming claiming The Witcher 3 has you earn points banging hookers. A claim no based in reality as there's not a points system. Now you might ask "well how do you know they're not actually a fan of video games really?"

Well


She admitted it, she doesn't play them and just glad they keep him busy.

meanwhile an actual female friend of mine who is into gaming has had a good 25% of her feed be about romancing Garrus in Mass Effect recently with comments from her Husband along the lines of "So any-one know any people who make very good alien costumes?"

The whole "Gatekeeping" argument falls apart when people realise Gatekeeping of old was to stop trouble getting in not stop regular people and yes gaming spaces could be a bit overzealous sometimes about it but you wouldn't let Mary Whitehouse attend some horror movie festival because she'd have blown her lid and wouldn't have been there for love of the thing but there more to cause trouble for it due to her own sensibilities and goals.

You don't give the person who wishes to see the thing destroyed or Twisted, pride of place and power or influence over it.
 

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Why do people care so much about seeing fat video game characters? I just don't understand that complaint at all. Of course, how many A-list celebrities do you see that are fat? The reason for that is fantasy, nobody aspires to be fat (or at least nobody SHOULD) and there is no legitimate reason to glorify it.

People like playing attractive characters, people like interacting with attractive characters and the vast majority of people prefer slim to average body types.

I find it funny that this literally only applies to female characters too, because women for whatever reason need justification for being fat. Meanwhile nobody gives too shits that every male character looks like an Ambercrombe & Fitch model at the slimest or the Terminator at their biggest.

Hot shirtless Ryu, nicknamed "Hot Ryu". Totally fine.

Lara Croft in a tank top and shorts.....fucking sexist.
It's because women of this day and age aren't being victimized anymore for being women, at least in countries like the U.S. where they are equal in every sense of the word, including the disadvantages that come from circumstance. However, they're so used to being victimized and fighting against their victimization that instead of just saying "mission accomplished" and getting on with their lives they're making stuff up to call sexist, and that always becomes hypocritical. In your example? I don't see men railing against the sexism of every one of them in fiction being Ambercrombe & Fitch model at the slimmest or the Terminator at their biggest despite the fact that it's the exact same thing that exists for the exact same purposes as anything feminists complain about.

You only see it when the female equivalent comes into the picture. Despite the fact that those Ambercrombe and Fitch and Terminators are just as much eye candy for women to drool over as they are wish fulfillment for men. Those supermodel women with big breasts and butts are just as much wish fulfillment for women as they are eye candy for men. However, the latter is wrong, the former nobody cares about. This is because feminists are trying to force a narrative of "POOR US" onto the world with no justification. Not a single one of them actually cares about the oppression of women, if they did they'd be going to other parts of the world where women actually face genuine oppression, like for instance the fact that they can't so much as show their own faces in public, and fighting against that.

The worst thing is that they fail to recognize that this so called sexism is even enabled by women themselves. There's a reason why there's less female protagonists in games in general, it's because not just the men prefer male protagonists, the women do too. Even when a female protagonist does exist in games less women buy those games. The reason video games don't have more female protagonists? It's because the vast majority of the audience doesn't want more of them including the female gamers.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Dwarvenhobble not reading an article and getting mad about it? Must be a Tuesday.

Then they'll make boring games and have online spaces full of Nazis that nobody except you will want to visit.
So what didn't I read again?
OR will this be another case of a person taking their shot and vanishing hoping people just blindly believe it?

Because I responded to Avnger and they vanished yet again or did you not read that rather lengthy detailed response?

What exactly are you basing any of this on? Just a hunch? Because she's OBVIOUSLY a terrible person so she would OBVIOUSLY love all the harassment so she could get them big bucks? She made everyone mad on purpose so she could play the victim? Because everyone knows that's where all the money is right; Feminism and getting death threats and harassment? What the actual fuck dude!?

Again, I really don't wonder why the hate boner is there, I just find it fucking embarrassing and sad that it was ever, and apparently still is, there.
1) Some-one posted her campaign every hour on one of 4chan's boards for weeks despite it being marked as off topic and removed again and again. They spammed 4chan with it which yeh would generate annoyance.
2) She's on record saying about it


3) It's not a new concept that a press desperate for clicks would prop up a controversial figure. The BBC show the Goodies mocked this in like the 1980s in the episode "Gender Education".
4) Anita at the UN did claim she saw harassment as people telling her she's wrong and at Vidcon 2016 in a panel she kinda let slip that she doesn't think a lot of the stuff she's publicly called out as creators harassing her is harassment (it's over an hour long so I'm sorry I don't have a timecode to hand or desire to sit through it all again to find the timecode)



Thank you!

Also, corporations don't tell us how to do what now, Dreiko? How we should think or behave? They've been doing that plenty of times. Blizzard and Activision have both been supporting toxic behavior for two decades now.


Don't even start, cuz I'm not listening.
So there's truth to the video but it's not the full truth you see she presents wow as having 0 female character that aren't like Victoria's secrets models. Well


Chromie and my World of Warcraft knowledge is literally I saw the film and have vaguely heard stuff about things from the game. It's an issue of approach as there probably are a few other less sexualised female wow characters too and the developers know that so even being arseholes they're not exactly sure what to say.

I mean Quentin Tarantino faced similar

 

CriticalGaming

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The worst thing is that they fail to recognize that this so called sexism is even enabled by women themselves. There's a reason why there's less female protagonists in games in general, it's because not just the men prefer male protagonists, the women do too. Even when a female protagonist does exist in games less women buy those games. The reason video games don't have more female protagonists? It's because the vast majority of the audience doesn't want more of them including the female gamers.
I don't know about that. I'd have to look up statistics in that regard. Because based off the girls I've played decades of MMO's with, they almost always play female characters. In my experience it's usually the guys who will play the female characters for whatever reason. Though I don't know the actual statistics like i said, but I feel like women are more inclined to play female characters when given the choice. I could be wrong though.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Ok because posting error / whatever connection error here's the tweet some-one made about the issue of politics in games coming up showing the kind of issue on show where politics encompasses kinda too much and one group are using politics meaning one thing to then want games to be political statements and basically hitpieces supporting their ideas


If people don't believe me that some people when they say they want games to be political only mean taking shots at Trump et al well just look at the reaction to Six Days in Fallujah coming back as a game. People pushing to have it banned by the UN or others. It's a political title but it doesn't do the politics the way they want so it's bad.

Same with people who pushed against COD Cold War because it was doing politics the wrong way as showing the communists and not exactly great.
 

CriticalGaming

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2) She's on record saying about it
i like how she talks about 4chan following her videos just for the sole purpose of attacking her......except she hasn't had comments enabled on her videos since like the very first one. So how are people leaving comments on videos that don't have comments enabled, fucking magic?


Chromie and my World of Warcraft knowledge is literally I saw the film and have vaguely heard stuff about things from the game. It's an issue of approach as there probably are a few other less sexualised female wow characters too and the developers know that so even being arseholes they're not exactly sure what to say.
And every female dwarf in the game as well. And female undead. Female orc. etc etc etc.

I think that is part of why the devs responded the way that they did. Because the underlying context of her complaint wasn't that ALL the female characters in WoW are too attractive, it's that all the IMPORTANT female characters are "attractive". Seeing as how the characters are part of the main cast, in a fantasy game just like with any movie, the more attractive character designs are going to be the ones that take center stage.

Of course the devs were also raping people behind the scenes so fuck 'em.
 
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BrawlMan

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I don't know about that. I'd have to look up statistics in that regard. Because based off the girls I've played decades of MMO's with, they almost always play female characters. In my experience it's usually the guys who will play the female characters for whatever reason. Though I don't know the actual statistics like i said, but I feel like women are more inclined to play female characters when given the choice. I could be wrong though.
You're not wrong. There are plenty of women that prefer playing female over male if given the option. I don't know what immortalfreezia going on about and I don't care. While I do prefer playing as the guy protagonist from time to time, I don't mind playing a female character at all. I never did unless the character's a jackass. The same applies if that care is a male too. And if that characters poorly written and etc etc.
 
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Gergar12

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'Literally, so fucking what?'
These things snowball and push the Overton window. That's what.

Also if this is a problem, then this should be equally a problem.


I never really like the more radical feminist movement for what I see as being exclusionary, and hypocritical. It's basically stuff I like is good, and stuff men like is bad.

Porn is bad, but non-straight porn is good

Every other media is good, but video games are bad(other than the phone apps of course)

Revealing men costumes are good, but the ones with women are bad

Every sexuality is good but anime sexuals, gee I wonder why?

I suspect as a political analyst that they will win on this. Let's face it the left wins on social issues, while the right grabs the more impactful economic issues in America.
 
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Kwak

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One of the best answers on this entire topic. This thread is dead now!

🤪
I tried to see if there was anything in it, but I struggled to be energised with outrage over this same old song - but that was enough to energise me to register my frustration I guess.

The thread should carry on, people caring about things that I don't is fine, and it's good to find a purpose in life.
 
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