Gena Davis institute on Gender in media tries to link violent games to mass shootings and police violence

Silvanus

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In the context of academic writing it would mean presenting an argument based on reasoning, rather than feelings and opinions, trying to look at a subject from different perspectives rather than purely your own, and so on.

I was in the middle of an English degree when I first became aware of Sarkeesian and watched her videos. My essays would have been ripped to pieces by the tutors if I tried to do what she does.

It's worth remembering as well that she stated that she wanted her videos to be used as educational tools, so really they should meet academic standards.
She's not presenting an academic paper, though, is she? She's an online pundit, like hundreds of others. I don't see anyone complaining about the lack of rigour or objectivity in Arlo's videos about Pikmin, Thunderf00t, or that "Doctor reacts!" guy. Because usually, people recognise they're just watching online vids. That's all. The only difference here is that what Sarkeesian said rubbed a bunch of people up the wrong way. And as a result we're still hearing about how terrible she is, eight years later.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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But... but she wants to take away our video-game tiddies! Look what she did to Tifa in the FF7 reboot; that was all her fault! If we don't stop her, women will castrate us all and force us to carry their purses!
Look I get it you just want me to post a link to "The Worm That Turned" so here you go.


But in all seriousness the threat is to the art that already exists in a world where things can be patched and changed far easier in the past where many original versions of films were lost due to pushes for censorship and all that survived was a heavily edited version.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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She's not presenting an academic paper, though, is she? She's an online pundit, like hundreds of others. I don't see anyone complaining about the lack of rigour or objectivity in Arlo's videos about Pikmin, Thunderf00t, or that "Doctor reacts!" guy. Because usually, people recognise they're just watching online vids. That's all. The only difference here is that what Sarkeesian said rubbed a bunch of people up the wrong way. And as a result we're still hearing about how terrible she is, eight years later.
Except her work was being portrayed and presented as an academic coming in to analyse video games.
Out of all those you named I've only ever watched Thunderf00ts stuff and sure I can point to some issues in his videos but they're far rarer and to be honest tend to be far smaller mistakes and not outright lies about content.

Also what was it Anita claimed "people who think they're least impacted by media". So the idea of it's just online videos and not recognising them as advertising stuff they are closer to as Anita does use a lot of advertising techniques.
 

CriticalGaming

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She's not presenting an academic paper, though, is she? She's an online pundit, like hundreds of others. I don't see anyone complaining about the lack of rigour or objectivity in Arlo's videos about Pikmin, Thunderf00t, or that "Doctor reacts!" guy. Because usually, people recognise they're just watching online vids. That's all. The only difference here is that what Sarkeesian said rubbed a bunch of people up the wrong way. And as a result we're still hearing about how terrible she is, eight years later.
If the crux of Anita's arguments are that video games are sexist and they can lead to sexist behavior in the people that play them. Then she is presenting forth a problem that has the potential to impact the industry whether it be from parents not letting kids buy video games because of a false notion, or when Anita herself speaks directly to developers to give feedback on projects and how to many them more androgynous as a whole. Because she has an impact on the media, especially since she has become mindbogglingly famous for some stupid fucking reason, her lies and her slander directly have an impact on the games being made. Remember Neil Druckman cited her as an inspiration to him which is why he made sure every female character in his games had their faces smashed by shovels for fear of them being too attractive.

Then the fact that her statements and claims are poorly researched, cherry picked, and outright locked down with it comes to criticism, then it becomes a problem. It's inventing a problem that isn't there and making a mountain out of the molehill of things that could be there. Additionally many of her trope complaints are tropes not specifically in video games but in story-telling in general. And it's not a bad thing either, the reason why damsel in distress is a trope to begin with is because it is an extremely effective story-telling device. It proves both character engagement, but also watcher/reader/player engagement and investment in what is going on. It speaks to the heroic part of us, the fantasy of being a hero or rooting for the hero. The trope itself isn't sexist unless view through that lens, which of course is the only lens Anita and people like her view things from.

And now she is involved with yet another bullshit anti gamer thing. Big fucking surprise.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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And it's not a bad thing either, the reason why damsel in distress is a trope to begin with is because it is an extremely effective story-telling device. It proves both character engagement, but also watcher/reader/player engagement and investment in what is going on. It speaks to the heroic part of us, the fantasy of being a hero or rooting for the hero.
Who is "us" here? Everyone, or just men? I'd like to know how the "damsel in distress" trope makes women feel like a hero.
 

CriticalGaming

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Who is "us" here? Everyone, or just men? I'd like to know how the "damsel in distress" trope makes women feel like a hero.
"Us" in this regard is everyone.

Also it is quite sexist to assume that women can't relate to wanting to save another person simply because that person they are trying to save is also a woman. Quite frankly I don't think that many people see the world nor do they see stories in that light. In fact i think the opposite is true, as many romance novels are basically all about giving the female read of being "saved" by the handsome knight/price/cowboy/rancher/vampire/werewolf/etc etc etc.

Again the trope exists because it is popular, not because it oppresses 50% of the population somehow.
 
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Bartholomew

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This new concern of "relating" to video game characters seems like a false concern. Consider mascots like Mario, Sonic, Kirby. I don't recall anybody disliking those games because they couldn't relate to the pink alien balloon.
 
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Hades

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Why are people talking about Anita Sarkesian? Haven't years passed since she has last been relevant?
 
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Silvanus

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If the crux of Anita's arguments are that video games are sexist and they can lead to sexist behavior in the people that play them. Then she is presenting forth a problem that has the potential to impact the industry whether it be from parents not letting kids buy video games because of a false notion, or when Anita herself speaks directly to developers to give feedback on projects and how to many them more androgynous as a whole. Because she has an impact on the media, especially since she has become mindbogglingly famous for some stupid fucking reason, her lies and her slander directly have an impact on the games being made. Remember Neil Druckman cited her as an inspiration to him which is why he made sure every female character in his games had their faces smashed by shovels for fear of them being too attractive.
Her argument is that sexist tropes are common, not that video games are inherently sexist. But I don't really have much interest in rehashing the old argument about how much validity there is in that. That's not really the point I was making.

The point I was making was that these are just online vids. And people have been moaning about them for eight years. She really doesn't have that much influence, you know; she's just a Youtuber and pundit.

The TLOU2 point is just pure rubbish, to be perfectly frank. A bunch of people had really petty gripes about the female characters not being to their liking (as if female characters in a game have to be physically attractive...? No they fucking don't) and chose to blame Sarkeesian, for something she had absolutely zero control over.

Then the fact that her statements and claims are poorly researched, cherry picked, and outright locked down with it comes to criticism, then it becomes a problem. It's inventing a problem that isn't there and making a mountain out of the molehill of things that could be there. Additionally many of her trope complaints are tropes not specifically in video games but in story-telling in general. And it's not a bad thing either, the reason why damsel in distress is a trope to begin with is because it is an extremely effective story-telling device. It proves both character engagement, but also watcher/reader/player engagement and investment in what is going on. It speaks to the heroic part of us, the fantasy of being a hero or rooting for the hero. The trope itself isn't sexist unless view through that lens, which of course is the only lens Anita and people like her view things from.
No, saving someone is an effective story-telling device that drives character engagement and investment.

But that's not all there is to it, is it? 9.5 times out of 10, the person being saved is a woman incapable of helping herself, and the person doing the saving is a brave man. It obviously carries a message about how men are the practical sex who can save people and do the brave stuff, and women are the weak & passive sex who need to be saved.
 

CriticalGaming

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The TLOU2 point is just pure rubbish, to be perfectly frank.
I never mentioned TLOU2. I specifically said Neil Druckmann, who's influence in gaming goes beyond TLOU and Naughty Dog.

It obviously carries a message about how men are the practical sex who can save people and do the brave stuff, and women are the weak & passive sex who need to be saved.
That is a projected message based purely on a feminist viewpoint and not any viewpoint that has any factual reality. The beauty of art is that people can interpret the piece of artwork anyway they want. The problem is, feminists will always see these kinds of things as problems which is not the way normal people view the world regardless of sex.

Pure projection, nothing more.

Now there is definitely validity in trying to create stories that circumvent these tropes, but based on the "7 stories archetype" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots Any attempt at trope prevention either only serves to shift the story into a different archetype, or simply do the same archetype with a different skin. Ultimately the premise remains the same.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Why are people talking about Anita Sarkesian? Haven't years passed since she has last been relevant?
I suspect because the don't want to address the massive elephant in the room of a supposed piece of research that tries to link violent video games to mass shooting and police violence.


Her argument is that sexist tropes are common, not that video games are inherently sexist. But I don't really have much interest in rehashing the old argument about how much validity there is in that. That's not really the point I was making.
No just harmful to the real world and part of the reason for the problems real life has seen happening.

The point I was making was that these are just online vids. And people have been moaning about them for eight years. She really doesn't have that much influence, you know; she's just a Youtuber and pundit.
Can you name many other youtubers who have spoken at the UN after being invited to speak there?
She's on the Twitter trust and Safety Council.
She had a meeting with Google before to talk about youtube policies.

How much influence does she need for it to count for anything in your book?

The TLOU2 point is just pure rubbish, to be perfectly frank. A bunch of people had really petty gripes about the female characters not being to their liking (as if female characters in a game have to be physically attractive...? No they fucking don't) and chose to blame Sarkeesian, for something she had absolutely zero control over.
She had no control over that is true.
What happened in part was a result of her ideas influencing Neil Druckman............. and also Neil Druckman's own fetish stuff sliding into the game too.


No, saving someone is an effective story-telling device that drives character engagement and investment.

But that's not all there is to it, is it? 9.5 times out of 10, the person being saved is a woman incapable of helping herself, and the person doing the saving is a brave man. It obviously carries a message about how men are the practical sex who can save people and do the brave stuff, and women are the weak & passive sex who need to be saved.
Problem is so often she misrepresents stuff and fails to recognise female characters being strong. E.G. Krystal in Dinosaur planet where the entire thing is a "Hero Trap" where the villain uses Krystal as bait basically and his efforts to save her only really serve the villains end.

It's funny it's presented as sexist by Anita that men have to save women but the onus for fixing cultural issues at game studios and other places is being placed on men. Men are being told they have to challenge friends about certain attitudes or comments made in private and told they have to protect the women and make the spaces welcoming to women by trying to make specific changes. So why couldn't women also be the change through force of will?
 

Silvanus

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I never mentioned TLOU2. I specifically said Neil Druckmann, who's influence in gaming goes beyond TLOU and Naughty Dog.
Yeah, but the only quote-unquote "controversy" I'm aware of with Druckmann writing female characters was in TLOU2-- where people complained that Abbie was too muscular, there were lesbians in it, and the women weren't pretty enough. And plenty of them blamed Sarkeesian for that.

What else was there?


That is a projected message based purely on a feminist viewpoint and not any viewpoint that has any factual reality. The beauty of art is that people can interpret the piece of artwork anyway they want. The problem is, feminists will always see these kinds of things as problems which is not the way normal people view the world regardless of sex.

Pure projection, nothing more.
OK, quick question.

Do you think it's pure coincidence that it's so much more frequent that the women needs saving and the man does the saving?

Now there is definitely validity in trying to create stories that circumvent these tropes, but based on the "7 stories archetype" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots Any attempt at trope prevention either only serves to shift the story into a different archetype, or simply do the same archetype with a different skin. Ultimately the premise remains the same.
The "7 basic plots" idea was always reductionist, and doesn't stop people from being able to write stories that don't fit into decades-old notions of brave men and passive, helpless women.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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OK, quick question.

Do you think it's pure coincidence that it's so much more frequent that the women needs saving and the man does the saving?
No because men generally are stronger (Testosterone is a hell of a drug) and due to greater bone density we also are generally more durable so it takes more harm to cause injury. It's also suggested men can recover from injury quicker than women. On the flip side women have a better immune response and can recover quicker and suffer less from pathogens etc.


The "7 basic plots" idea was always reductionist, and doesn't stop people from being able to write stories that don't fit into decades-old notions of brave men and passive, helpless women.
and they have done but Tropes are used as a shorthand to cut to the chase. Thus you don't have to explain about some mythical treasure, how it came to be and why no-one else has claimed it you can go "The bad guy kidnapped the person you love go rescue them"
 

CriticalGaming

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Yeah, but the only quote-unquote "controversy" I'm aware of with Druckmann writing female characters was in TLOU2-- where people complained that Abbie was too muscular, there were lesbians in it, and the women weren't pretty enough. And plenty of them blamed Sarkeesian for that.

What else was there?
Neil chased out a female character artist and the lead female writer for the uncharted series because neither woman was "woke" enough for lack of a better term. He wanted them to write the characters and design the characters a certain way, and both women told him that those ideas were bad. So he had them removed from the company. Amy Henning commented about it either on twitter or in some interviews but I don't remember exactly where it was.

Do you think it's pure coincidence that it's so much more frequent that the women needs saving and the man does the saving?
No I think it is for two primary reasons.

1. Men are usually the bigger stars in the movies/TV show. Therefore they are the driving force of the films and thus play the heroes. Money is big driver for this as hollywood is determined to cling to the most successful tropes.

2. As i mentioned before. Women actually like this trope. You might not believe it, but you only need to glance through the romance section of your local bookstore to see that this is true. Not only do romance novels in particular and see that the plots are always about girls getting saved, but also that the vast majority of these books are AUTHORED and READ by women. So if women are writing this trope AND buying into this trope, what other conclusion could there be that it is simply a good and desirable trope that women enjoy?

The "7 basic plots" idea was always reductionist....
Reductionist in what way? Take any story, any plot, no matter how complicated you make all the surrounding elements the CORE of the stories will ALWAYS fall into those 7 archtypes. This is a well known thing. Of course you have to reduce a plot to the core premise, but that is merely a tool to see where the story fits.
 

CriticalGaming

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Doesn't stop people from being able to write stories that don't fit into decades-old notions of brave men and passive, helpless women.
You're right. But in reality how often is that really the case in modern storytelling? how many female characters can you name in modern media today that can be classified as "helpless"? Just because they need saving, doesn't automatically make them "helpless". Locking down one of the main characters in your story is a very common way to raise the stakes. It doesn't make it sexist.

See the problem with the modern view on media that Feminist tend to take, is that nothing bad can ever happen to the female character. She must always be in complete control of any situation, she must be dominant or at bare minimum equal power level to all the male characters around her, she must never have anything bad happen to her in any way, and effectively she has to be playing the game on God-Mode. Which might be very empowering fantasy, but it also means it is a stupid and boring story because there is never any danger.

Buffy The Vampire Slayer was a great example of how to do the powerful women characters correctly. Buffy was the strongest person on the show, but there were several times which she got her ass kicked, her friends needed saving (including girl friends so it's okay to be the damsel if the hero is also a woman apparently), and was never above every creature she faced. There were several times where even she was saved by a male character, and that's FINE. There is nothing wrong with your character having vulnerabilities, and needing saving too. In fact a vulnerable hero is ultimately a more interesting and better hero because they continue to be the hero despite being vulnerable. It's one of the reason why Superman sucks.
 

Agema

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Why are people talking about Anita Sarkesian? Haven't years passed since she has last been relevant?
Well, for some people, ********* was not petty internet rage about someone's relationship woes rebadged as blah blah journalism blah to claim some credibility, but a seismic and formative event that really spoke to their deep and abiding dislike / distrust of women, and inspired them to get organised in their misogyny. And so eight years on, no they haven't let go, because it meant that much to them.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Well, for some people, ********* was not petty internet rage about someone's relationship woes rebadged as blah blah journalism blah to claim some credibility, but a seismic and formative event that really spoke to their deep and abiding dislike / distrust of women, and inspired them to get organised in their misogyny. And so eight years on, no they haven't let go, because it meant that much to them.
What strange thing to see, a person making broad statements about a number of people in this thread and their positions and beliefs all because they don't agree with a certain woman?

So does this apply to all women because I'm pretty sure some of Anita's critics are women too so are the people vehemently backing Anita what you claim too because they disagree with other women or is Anita a special case because she and her supporters are "On the right side of history" or whatever?
 

Satinavian

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I also find it perplexing that this whole thread is about Anita again, even if she is neither part of that institute nor author of that study and did little more than a bit promotion and being part of some hosted event.

She is irrelevant and also a troll. Her whole relevance comes from purposefully provoking people. Ignore and forget her.



OK, quick question.

Do you think it's pure coincidence that it's so much more frequent that the women needs saving and the man does the saving?
Meh, there are more than enough saved men to be saved. I could not even say whether men or women get saved more often nowadays.

But where i still see a big difference is, what kind of men/women get saved. Saved men are ususlly 1-scene minor NPCs, saved women can more easily be major characters or squad members. I think there is still a notion that "needing to be saved" is more a stain for a man than for a women and not something they want to put on major main characters that much. Putting this on minor male NPCs however makes the protagonists seem even more badass in comparison.

But that is just some impression, i don't have numbers for that. Still, it feels less like pushing women in the role to be rescued and more like a limitation on the kind of roles major male characters can have. Which already tend to be far more uniform and restricted than major female characters.

As for the person doing the saving, well, female protagonits are pretty common and even more common is having both options for the PC. And i don't see much more saving in games with male protagonists than in games with female protagonist or both options. And while there might still be more of the first than of the second, they are not actually treated much differently.

I am pretty sure the damsel trope is far less common in games than in firm or TV. I have a hard time remembering the last time i have seen it playrd straight in a game but can instantly remember several TV show examples from the last half year.
 
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