Oh for fuck... Will the GamersTM be over Sarkeesian by the 2030's maybe?
We know fuck all about why Amy Hennig left, owing to a non-disclosure agreement. We certainly have no reliable reason to think it's because of insufficient "woke".Neil chased out a female character artist and the lead female writer for the uncharted series because neither woman was "woke" enough for lack of a better term. He wanted them to write the characters and design the characters a certain way, and both women told him that those ideas were bad. So he had them removed from the company. Amy Henning commented about it either on twitter or in some interviews but I don't remember exactly where it was.
Uhrm, "men are the bigger stars" is.... just restating the issue.No I think it is for two primary reasons.
1. Men are usually the bigger stars in the movies/TV show. Therefore they are the driving force of the films and thus play the heroes. Money is big driver for this as hollywood is determined to cling to the most successful tropes.
I would maybe say it's not a good idea to base your conclusions about the kind of art that 51% of the global population enjoy on the romance section of a bookstore.2. As i mentioned before. Women actually like this trope. You might not believe it, but you only need to glance through the romance section of your local bookstore to see that this is true. Not only do romance novels in particular and see that the plots are always about girls getting saved, but also that the vast majority of these books are AUTHORED and READ by women. So if women are writing this trope AND buying into this trope, what other conclusion could there be that it is simply a good and desirable trope that women enjoy?
You can force them to fit those archetypes. You could also make them fit 2 or 3 "basic stories" if you pushed hard enough, and stripped away enough of the details, complexities, and differentiating factors.Reductionist in what way? Take any story, any plot, no matter how complicated you make all the surrounding elements the CORE of the stories will ALWAYS fall into those 7 archtypes. This is a well known thing. Of course you have to reduce a plot to the core premise, but that is merely a tool to see where the story fits.
Yeah, but Druckmann drew so much ridiculous hatred during the pre-release of TLoU2 that people just started to make shit up so they could get even more angry. The generally accepted story before the hate was that Henning and Richmond weren't making Uncharted 4 work the way the studio heads wanted it to, removed them from the project, put Druckmann and Straley on it after the massive succes of TLoU, and then Henning and Richmond left Naughty Dog probably due to feeling slighted after having the project that by that point they certainly invested years in taken away from them. From Henning especially I can understand, since she was the one who made Uncharted what it is.We know fuck all about why Amy Hennig left, owing to a non-disclosure agreement. We certainly have no reliable reason to think it's because of insufficient "woke".
That goes in part to the despite the original character artist i previously mentioned. Ellie originally was going to be a very different character cosmetically. And Neil pushed to make her much younger. They also altered the bodies of the original model for adult Ellie, Dina, and Abby. Namely lowered breast size and smashed the faces a bit.Which characters then do you define as having been uglified?
Oh for fuck... Will the GamersTM be over Sarkeesian by the 2030's maybe?
It isn't. Thus your whole argument is based on a false premise. Do the homework next time instead of relying on hearsay from trolls.If the crux of Anita's arguments are that video games are sexist
How is that an issue? It's not an issue. Celebrities make money based off the box office draw that they have, just like professional athletes.Uhrm, "men are the bigger stars" is.... just restating the issue.
I don't know what your argument here is. I presented evidence that proves that women enjoy a trope you say is a problem because that trope is mostly applied to female characters. And then I showcased that despite that trope, most women don't have a problem with it, and even enjoy it.I would maybe say it's not a good idea to base your conclusions about the kind of art that 51% of the global population enjoy on the romance section of a bookstore.
Much like if I based what men enjoy on the sci fi section of a bookstore, I'd conclude men only enjoy shitty video-game tie in novels.
That's the point yes. It's like the nucleus of a cell. These basic principals are the core of a story that make everything else around it work. Without a core the story doesn't work, it becomes disjointed and doesn't make sense.You can force them to fit those archetypes. You could also make them fit 2 or 3 "basic stories" if you pushed hard enough, and stripped away enough of the details, complexities, and differentiating factors.
In what way. Do you have examples of these and archetypal roles? Because the gender of the Archetype doesn't really matter. If a character fits into an archetype then they are an archetype regardless of sexual characteristics. There is nothing about archetypes that require a specific gender. They are merely templates that characters are based around.The point is that these basic story archetypes haven't stopped countless writers producing fiction that doesn't involve men and women in super-traditional archetypal roles.
Henning also did a lot of the writing on TLOU1's original script as well IIRC. Because both Uncharted 4 and TLOU were being put together conceptually around the same time. Though I think Henning was ultimately pulled off TLOU because of Druckmann's vision for the game and she went to work on Uncharted 4 exclusively only to also be removed from that. Regardless of the ultimate reasoning, I think creative differences was a clear factor for Henning's departure. She didn't want to write what they told her for whatever reason, likely because she didn't think it would be any good and not necessarily because "wokeness".Yeah, but Druckmann drew so much ridiculous hatred during the pre-release of TLoU2 that people just started to make shit up so they could get even more angry. The generally accepted story before the hate was that Henning and Richmond weren't making Uncharted 4 work the way the studio heads wanted it to, removed them from the project, put Druckmann and Straley on it after the massive succes of TLoU, and then Henning and Richmond left Naughty Dog probably due to feeling slighted after having the project that by that point they certainly invested years in taken away from them. From Henning especially I can understand, since she was the one who made Uncharted what it is.
Don't forget that Naughty Dog also had bad pipes that nearly fell on people during some sort of construction or repairs or some shit going down.But because he made TLoU2 bad, and even worse, "woke", Druckmann apparently did all the bad stuff; He drove Henning away, he stole TLoU from her, he made girls ugly on purpose, he modeled himself in the game to spit on Joel, he personally mo-capped the sex scene with Abby because he has a crush on the actor Laura Bailey. Meanwhile none of these people said anything about the bad stuff that actually happened, like him being complicit in Naughty Dog's immense crunch culture.
I mean, being the reality of business doesn't make something not sexism. The reality of business in entertainment is that people do discriminate between male and female performers, both in the industries and the audience.The answer is no. It's not sexism, it's the reality of business, end of story.
And your proof of this is.....?The reality of business in entertainment is that people do discriminate between male and female performers, both in the industries and the audience.
That doesn't make any sense time wise, since TLoU, or the project that would eventually become TLoU, began developement right after Uncharted 2. Henning was busy writing Uncharted 3, so why would she be writing TLoU? After Uncharted 2 Naughty Dog split up its developers; one team would go for the surefire financial success that was the next Uncharted (3), and the other team would be allowed to try something else, which sorta started out with a new Jak game but quickly became TLoU.Henning also did a lot of the writing on TLOU1's original script as well IIRC. Because both Uncharted 4 and TLOU were being put together conceptually around the same time. Though I think Henning was ultimately pulled off TLOU because of Druckmann's vision for the game and she went to work on Uncharted 4 exclusively only to also be removed from that. Regardless of the ultimate reasoning, I think creative differences was a clear factor for Henning's departure. She didn't want to write what they told her for whatever reason, likely because she didn't think it would be any good and not necessarily because "wokeness".
Scenarios are written for games long before development begins. But yeah maybe they just took work she work for Uncharted and adapted it into TLOU, that's certainly possible. Either way I think we can agree that the work environment at Naughty Dog wasn't great at the best of times.I think there was at one point an idea to make a section in Uncharted 2 that saw Drake escorting a young girl who was either mute or blind, which was dropped, and that served as the initial spark for TLoU, but that's about as much influence Henning had on the writing of that game.
There were already stories about ND bleeding talent right after the first Last of Us was released. It's why Bruce Straley, responsible for some of Naughty Dog's best games, left the company. Because right after Uncharted 2 he was put on The Last of Us (apparently already a crunch nightmare), and right after that he was tasked with saving Uncharted 4, which seemingly was a giant trash fire under Henning and Richmond.Either way I think we can agree that the work environment at Naughty Dog wasn't great at the best of times.
With Taliban back in power i expect Sarkesiaan gaining new relevancy in 2030s, kickstarting Gamergate 2, because time is a flat circleOh for fuck... Will the GamersTM be over Sarkeesian by the 2030's maybe?
Well, she is to a considerable extent just a typical Web 2.0 dilettante looking for something to get some views, in our democratised media environment where the art is spouting opinions for attention rather than insight.With Taliban back in power i expect Sarkesiaan gaining new relevancy in 2030s, kickstarting Gamergate 2, because time is a flat circle
Translation: "I have no desire to understand what informs these phenomena because the implications make me uncomfortable."How is that an issue? It's not an issue. Celebrities make money based off the box office draw that they have, just like professional athletes.
Crub your sexism at the door and think rationally and realistically. What female movie star draws the biggest crowd? Do any of them pull a bigger audience than someone like...I dunno The Rock? The answer is no. It's not sexism, it's the reality of business, end of story.
OK, OK OK OK stop a second.How is that an issue? It's not an issue. Celebrities make money based off the box office draw that they have, just like professional athletes.
Crub your sexism at the door and think rationally and realistically. What female movie star draws the biggest crowd? Do any of them pull a bigger audience than someone like...I dunno The Rock? The answer is no. It's not sexism, it's the reality of business, end of story.
I'm not expecting equality of outcome. I'm requesting that writing not be so tremendously lazy as to endlessly lean on age-old tropes about what men and women can do.What you expect is equality of outcome, which isn't how the world works. So no, men being the bigger stars, is not the issue. There are plenty of female led franchises and films that still don't hold a candle to what other movie stars bring in. It's not sexism either because these female driven franchises are still very successful.
My argument is that you didn't prove that. You proved that there's an audience for trashy romance, and you seem to have extrapolated from that that all women like these tired old tropes, so we shouldn't bother to make anything else or challenge them.I don't know what your argument here is. I presented evidence that proves that women enjoy a trope you say is a problem because that trope is mostly applied to female characters. And then I showcased that despite that trope, most women don't have a problem with it, and even enjoy it.
It's literally the same logic. An audience exists for some kind of trashy fiction. So it's just as valid to say "men like trashy video game tie-in novels" as it is to say "women like stereotypical trope-filled romance".I don't know how comparing that to men in a sci-fi section has any relevance.
Yes. And there could be 3, or there could be 50, depending on how hard you push.That's the point yes. It's like the nucleus of a cell. These basic principals are the core of a story that make everything else around it work. Without a core the story doesn't work, it becomes disjointed and doesn't make sense.
The gender doesn't matter, eh? Then why is it always women?In what way. Do you have examples of these and archetypal roles? Because the gender of the Archetype doesn't really matter. If a character fits into an archetype then they are an archetype regardless of sexual characteristics. There is nothing about archetypes that require a specific gender. They are merely templates that characters are based around.
Yeh because her position of "Games contain "sexist" stuff and are the reason for actually far more serious stuff that happens in real life" is so much of a better position right? It's just Jack Thompson esc rhetoric with an extra step in the middle the equivalent of going "Games cause increased aggression response and increased aggression response leads to mass shootings".It isn't. Thus your whole argument is based on a false premise. Do the homework next time instead of relying on hearsay from trolls.
I don't think I need to prove that to you. You said it yourself, that it's the reality of business.And your proof of this is.....?
Who says the military toys, trucks, nerf guns, and all that crap is for boys? Is there something that says girls can't play with them? Is there something that says boys can't have barbies?Like when you go into a kids toy shop, and find all the boys toys involve soldiers, monsters, fire trucks, cops and robbers. And all the girls toys involve princesses, housewife barbies, hair accessories.