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BrawlMan

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I gotta side with him. On the "idea" front, I'm with it, but man I already see some many concerns in the trailer. The plotting, characters, acting...eeh something is stinky.
I already considered both of your reasons, but that's not going to deter me. Whatever happens, happens.
 

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"Imaginary Playmates" would have been a great song too. Honestly been a better pick in my mind.



 

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@jeffromaddox5778
3 days ago
The Marvels is the WNBA of movies. The audience it was geared towards didn't see it so the audience it wasn't geared towards is getting blamed for it's financial failure.



@Isnogood12
2 days ago
How to write a good female character: Don't. Write a good character. If someone is a scientific prodigy, show it to us and tell us how they got that level of knowledge.

Sigourney Weaver wasn't a warrior in Alien, she was just another crewmember. When they showed her being able to use a powerloader in Aliens, it was not about showing off, but helping get a job done. When she fought the queen at the end of Aliens, it wasn't because she was better at it than the trained marines, it was because there was nobody else left and she HAD to do it.

She didn't go with the marines at the start, dual wield katanas and run on walls to show off how amazing she was compared to MALE SOLDIERS but instead she was there to guide them because of, you guessed it, knowledge she had earned. Ellie Satler in Jurassic Park had studied years to be the top of her field, and she showed it to us without having to put anyone down.

She didn't need to make snide comments about how she was better at chaos theory than Jeff Goldblum, instead she immediately shoved her hands elbow-deep into dino poop to use her own merits. She didn't need to drop-kick a t-rex to be amazing.
 
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@jeffromaddox5778
3 days ago
The Marvels is the WNBA of movies. The audience it was geared towards didn't see it so the audience it wasn't geared towards is getting blamed for it's financial failure.



@Isnogood12
2 days ago
How to write a good female character: Don't. Write a good character. If someone is a scientific prodigy, show it to us and tell us how they got that level of knowledge.

Sigourney Weaver wasn't a warrior in Alien, she was just another crewmember. When they showed her being able to use a powerloader in Aliens, it was not about showing off, but helping get a job done. When she fought the queen at the end of Aliens, it wasn't because she was better at it than the trained marines, it was because there was nobody else left and she HAD to do it.

She didn't go with the marines at the start, dual wield katanas and run on walls to show off how amazing she was compared to MALE SOLDIERS but instead she was there to guide them because of, you guessed it, knowledge she had earned. Ellie Satler in Jurassic Park had studied years to be the top of her field, and she showed it to us without having to put anyone down.

She didn't need to make snide comments about how she was better at chaos theory than Jeff Goldblum, instead she immediately shoved her hands elbow-deep into dino poop to use her own merits. She didn't need to drop-kick a t-rex to be amazing.
I just saw Ruby Gillman and I find it ironic, while that movie performed worse than The Marvels at the box office, RG got better reception and sales the moment it hit digital and home video. RG is a animated female lead superhero movie, yet it doesn't talk down to its audience nor does it make any of the male characters incompetent nor stupid. I haven't seen The Marvels, but I doubt it did that with its male characters. If it did, feel free to correct me. I am sure in a few years, there will be some people saying how the movie is not as bad, but I honestly couldn't care either way. I'm sure it's got some decent action, but I never really going to touch this, nor most of Marvel's recent output of movie and TV shows. I don't even want to see Loki right now nor later. Disney and Marvel, take a freaking break and take time to make your products. Stop putting any Marvel show or Star Wars show on the assembly line.
 
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Casual Shinji

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Sigourney Weaver wasn't a warrior in Alien, she was just another crewmember. When they showed her being able to use a powerloader in Aliens, it was not about showing off, but helping get a job done. When she fought the queen at the end of Aliens, it wasn't because she was better at it than the trained marines, it was because there was nobody else left and she HAD to do it.
Except that scene is totally framed as her showing off to the men that she can do the same thing they can when told 'I don't know, is there anything you can do?' And how in Alien she has all the correct judgement as opposed to the men in charge.

Ellie Satler in Jurassic Park had studied years to be the top of her field, and she showed it to us without having to put anyone down.

She didn't need to make snide comments about how she was better at chaos theory than Jeff Goldblum, instead she immediately shoved her hands elbow-deep into dino poop to use her own merits. She didn't need to drop-kick a t-rex to be amazing.
Yeah... Hey, remember when Ellie followed up Malcom's 'God creates dinosaurs, God destroys dinosaurs, God creates man, man destroys God, man creates dinosaurs' with 'Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth'? And how she reponds to Hammond implying she's not up to getting the power back up with 'We can discuss sexism in survival situations when I get back'? And how she shows up the male veterinarian by immediately figuring out what's wrong with the Triceratops?

You're telling me this wouldn't have gotten scrutinized by asshats like the Critical Drinker had scenes like this been in a current movie?

This is reactionary hindsight, but seeing as it's under a Critical Drinker video I'm not surprised. This is the same guy who was peeved that Peter Parker as the only white man in Across the Spider-Verse was wearing a pink bathrobe and had a baby with him.

Isn't it curious we never see videos about badly written male characters, or videos titled 'people don't hate male characters, they hate badly written characters'? Funny that, huh?
 
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Except that scene is totally framed as her showing off to the men that she can do the same thing they can when told 'I don't know, is there anything you can do?' And how in Alien she has all the correct judgement as opposed to the men in charge.
That part actually makes sense. She's the only one that had encountered with a Xenomorph, up until that point when they started pouring out by 100s.


This is reactionary hindsight, but seeing as it's under a Critical Drinker video I'm not surprised. This is the same guy who was peeved that Peter Parker as the only white man in Across the Spider-Verse was wearing a pink bathrobe and had a baby with him.

Isn't it curious we never see videos about badly written males characters, or videos titled 'people don't hate male characters, they hate badly written characters'? Funny that, huh?
Oh, so that was a douchebag going on about that Double Toasted mention a person like that, but I think they're referring to a guy in the little theater with them that was crying about a similar thing. More than likely a different asshat though. The showing Korey went to had a guy in the theater whining about how they made Peter Parker "too funny" like a black character. That goes to show you what those type of people think or only prefer a certain stereotypes to a specific gender or race.
 
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Casual Shinji

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That part actually makes sense. He's the only one that had encountered with a Xenomorph, up until that point when they started pouring out by 100s.
No, I mean the first Alien. Ripley's the one who decyphers the alien beacon to show it's a warning and not an S.O.S., and she's the one who refuses to open the hatch to let Dallas, Lambert, and face-hugged Kane back on board. Both times she gets shut down by Ash. And later on she challenges Dallas on his leadership for letting Ash do whatever he wants, which is then brushed off by Dallas. Her not being believed/taken seriously by the men in charge is definitely a running theme in that movie.
 

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No, I mean the first Alien. Ripley's the one who decyphers the alien beacon to show it's a warning and not an S.O.S., and she's the one who refuses to open the hatch to let Dallas, Lambert, and face-hugged Kane back on board. Both times she gets shut down by Ash. And later on she challenges Dallas on his leadership for letting Ash do whatever he wants, which is then brushed off by Dallas. Her not being believed/taken seriously by the men in charge is definitely a running theme in that movie.
Ripley was originally written to be a man. Sigourney Weaver did the role so well during auditions, that Scott barely had to change anything at all.


Ability over Appearance: The script was written so that any character could be played by either a woman or man. The filmmakers originally wanted a guy for Ripley, but Sigourney Weaver owns the role.
 

Casual Shinji

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Ripley was originally written to be a man. Sigourney Weaver did the role so well during auditions, that Scott barely had to change anything at all.

I know, but that doesn't stop the theme from being there, whether originally intended or not. Both Ripley and Lambert were apparently gender swapped due to the rise of second-wave feminism.
 

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I know, but that doesn't stop the theme from being there, whether originally intended or not. Both Ripley and Lambert were apparently gender swapped due to the rise of second-wave feminism.
And it worked out all for the better, because the film remembered to have great writing and good characters. No disasters happened. No raining cats and dogs. No volcanoes erupting, because of a female character taking charge. Everyone went about their day, after watching the movie, and moved on to something else.
 

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Except that scene is totally framed as her showing off to the men that she can do the same thing they can when told 'I don't know, is there anything you can do?' And how in Alien she has all the correct judgement as opposed to the men in charge.

Yeah... Hey, remember when Ellie followed up Malcom's 'God creates dinosaurs, God destroys dinosaurs, God creates man, man destroys God, man creates dinosaurs' with 'Dinosaurs eat man, woman inherits the Earth'? And how she reponds to Hammond implying she's not up to getting the power back up with 'We can discuss sexism in survival situations when I get back'? And how she shows up the male veterinarian by immediately figuring out what's wrong with the Triceratops?

You're telling me this wouldn't have gotten scrutinized by asshats like the Critical Drinker had scenes like this been in a current movie?

This is reactionary hindsight, but seeing as it's under a Critical Drinker video I'm not surprised. This is the same guy who was peeved that Peter Parker as the only white man in Across the Spider-Verse was wearing a pink bathrobe and had a baby with him.

Isn't it curious we never see videos about badly written male characters, or videos titled 'people don't hate male characters, they hate badly written characters'? Funny that, huh?
Back then it was unexpected and a surprise. Audiences weren’t yet beaten over their heads with “Meee tooooo!!” sexism this and man-hating that. Fatigue happens in many forms, and we’ve gotten the message for decades now.

I can’t speak for TCD, but also can’t exactly fault most of his reasoning here either.
 
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Casual Shinji

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Back then it was unexpected and a surprise. Audiences weren’t yet beaten over their heads with “Meee tooooo!!” sexism this and man-hating that that. Fatigue happens in many forms, and we’ve gotten the message for decades now.

I can’t speak for TCD, but also can’t exactly fault most of his reasoning here either.
Except you yourself just posted those female characters as examples that apparently don't "beat you over the head with it". So were those bad then too, but we didn't know, or were they good despite the feminism?

And if that's the case - that fatigue has set in, that we've gotten the message - this means that sexism shouldn't be adressed anymore, that it's over, what? Or that we should seek advice from people like the Critical Drinker on how to write female characters? And women being overpowered and competent, is that man-hating too? Because apparently it is unless there's a man of equal or greater strength next to her. Again, can you sense the scrutiny we've reached with this? How this has absolutely nothing to do with fatigue, but everything with rage baiting: focusing on any new movie, game, or show with a prominent or leading female character, and see what minute detail that isn't traditionally feminine to point at and scream 'woke' to get clicks.

And I can very much fault his reasoning because I know exactly where the fuck it comes from.
 
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BrawlMan

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Back then it was unexpected and a surprise. Audiences weren’t yet beaten over their heads with “Meee tooooo!!” sexism this and man-hating that. Fatigue happens in many forms, and we’ve gotten the message for decades now.

I can’t speak for TCD, but also can’t exactly fault most of his reasoning here either.
I know you're trying to be fair, but when a guy like CD cries, because Peter is doing silly things in a bathrobe for most of the run time, and not some "funny" black side character in the background doing Uncle Tom Foolery, that sends off crimson red flags. He can get fucked. I'll quote myself from the Space Battle Forums.

Whatever points they do have is usually incidental, a coincidence, or they immediately shoot themselves in the foot with their crappy rhetoric or going on and on and on saying all these things, but adding absolutely nothing and wasting the viewers time.
 

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Except you yourself just posted those female characters as examples that apparently don't "beat you over the head with it". So were those bad then too, but we didn't know, or were they good despite the feminism?

And if that's the case - that fatigue has set in, that we've gotten the message - this means that sexism shouldn't be adressed anymore, that it's over, what? Or that we should seek advice from people like the Critical Drinker on how to write female characters? And women being overpowered and competent, is that man-hating too? Because apparently it is unless there's a man of equal or greater strength next to her. Again, can you sense the scrutiny we've reached with this? How this has absolutely nothing to do with fatigue, but everything with rage baiting: focusing on any new movie, game, or show with a prominent or leading female character, and see what minute detail that isn't traditionally feminine to point at and scream 'woke' to get clicks.

And I can very much fault his reasoning because I know exactly where the fuck it comes from.

The difference between then and now is characters like Ripley, Sarah Connor, etc. were written to stand on their own without having to grandstand any causes or agendas that wind up overshadowing the movie itself. The timing doesn’t help either, since yes, people are generally fatigued by not only the superhero genre which is being bled dry by greedy studios that have run out of ideas, but by an industry at large (Hollywood) that has become more concerned with pandering than ever using its widespread influence in any truly socially constructive way that doesn’t need to belittle or tear one group down to build another up.

Is it the anti-woke crowd or whatever it’s called now’s fault that movies like Ghostbusters 2016, Charlie’s Angels 2019, or most recently The Marvels flopped? Or is it more-so these are examples of movies being made for the wrong reasons? Because there are certainly examples even within the last decade of female led casts that have done really well. Mad Max, Wonder Woman, even the previous Charlie’s Angels from way back in 2000. They work because the characters are written for the sake of telling meaningful, fun, and funny stories rather than for the sake of themselves.
 

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The difference between then and now is characters like Ripley, Sarah Connor, etc. were written to stand on their own without having to grandstand any causes or agendas that wind up overshadowing the movie itself. The timing doesn’t help either, since yes, people are generally fatigued by not only the superhero genre which is being bled dry by greedy studios that have run out of ideas, but by an industry at large (Hollywood) that has become more concerned with pandering than ever using its widespread influence in any truly socially constructive way that doesn’t need to belittle or tear one group down to build another up.
Then look outside the MCU or any of the other franchise factory movies. Aim your arrows at the ivory tower of Hollywood. They're not tearing down what I assume in this case is straight white people anymore than they're building up gay people or women. Look at the big blockbuster movies that came out this year and tell me 90% of them weren't about straight white men. Not meant as a critique here, just to show a frame of reference for this supposed overtaking of pandering and tearing down of the straight whites. Hollywood is comfortably swimming within the capitalist bounds of the status quo, and will never rock the boat until someone from outside does it first and makes money off of it. The only reason we're getting the sliver of "pandering" from Hollywood now is because other forms of media, namely cartoons and some streaming shows, were there 10 years ago.

Is it the anti-woke crowd or whatever it’s called now’s fault that movies like Ghostbusters 2016, Charlie’s Angels 2019, or most recently The Marvels flopped? Or is it more-so these are examples of movies being made for the wrong reasons?
No, it's their fault for putting the blame squarely on women, and framing the narrative that diversity and all those who would fall within it - woman, gay, lesbian, black, asian, trans, non-binary - make movies worse and are not welcome. People got pissed at the reveal trailer for The Force Awakens because it started with a black stormtrooper. What, were people fatigued by black people in movies?

And The Marvels was NEVER going win over the reactionaries. The Critical Drinker and his ilk were licking their chops at the prospect of tearing into it, for not only was it a female led team-up movie, it starred Brie Larson: she who took the anti-Christ crown from Anita Sarkeesian.

Also, what would the "wrong reasons" for these movies being made be? Success or failure depends little on the behind-the-scenes intention. We had a toy movie and a videogame movie making billions this year, based mostly on brand recognition and marketing. Was that the right reason or the wrong reason to make those movies?

Because there are certainly examples even within the last decade of female led casts that have done really well. Mad Max, Wonder Woman, even the previous Charlie’s Angels from way back in 2000. They work because the characters are written for the sake of telling meaningful, fun, and funny stories rather than for the sake of themselves.
Guess which movie kickstarted the anti-woke outrage industry... Mad Max: Fury Road. Max was taking orders from a woman, boo.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Is it the anti-woke crowd or whatever it’s called now’s fault that movies like Ghostbusters 2016, Charlie’s Angels 2019, or most recently The Marvels flopped? Or is it more-so these are examples of movies being made for the wrong reasons? Because there are certainly examples even within the last decade of female led casts that have done really well. Mad Max, Wonder Woman, even the previous Charlie’s Angels from way back in 2000. They work because the characters are written for the sake of telling meaningful, fun, and funny stories rather than for the sake of themselves.
The previous Charlie's Angels film, as you mention, was decades ago, before the whining got really loud.

And the modern reboot, yeah, it has a really painful ra-ra girlpower bit in the opening, otherwise forgets all that and wasn't nearly as bad as a lot of more successful rubbish. Not saying it was good, mind, but loads of movies aren't, having women in them isn't the problem.

(If they had wanted to make Charlie's Angels a big girl-power message film, they probably wouldn't have given most of the best bits to the men.)
 
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Gordon_4

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Ellie Satler in Jurassic Park had studied years to be the top of her field
Ellie Satler was a graduate student and in her 20s in the book, that Alan occasionally perved on. The movie made her a peer in paleobotany and in age: a change that would have really twisted this shithead's underpants. She also doesn't do nearly as much in the book as the movie. Also fun fact, the movie cut a shitload of cool stuff that Genaro (who was a badass in the novel) and Muldoon did like hunting raptors with rpgs.

Except that scene is totally framed as her showing off to the men that she can do the same thing they can when told 'I don't know, is there anything you can do?'.
Close but no. Ripley isn't showing off to the men, but to the marines. She is a civilian on a warship and that creates tension. Apone asks her if there's anything she can do because he genuinely does not know; he knows the measure of his team so he knows Ferro (the pilot), Deitritch (their medic) and Vasquez (their other heavy gunner) can do what he asks of them without him having to supervise them. Watch Hick's face in that scene, as soon as Ripley starts strapping herself into that loader he's got a grin on his face cos he knows the Sarge is about to find out Ripley can mix it with them. Probably helps that she's blue collar as opposed to Burke who may as well have 'office boy' tattooed on his forehead.
 

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Close but no. Ripley isn't showing off to the men, but to the marines. She is a civilian on a warship and that creates tension. Apone asks her if there's anything she can do because he genuinely does not know; he knows the measure of his team so he knows Ferro (the pilot), Deitritch (their medic) and Vasquez (their other heavy gunner) can do what he asks of them without him having to supervise them. Watch Hick's face in that scene, as soon as Ripley starts strapping herself into that loader he's got a grin on his face cos he knows the Sarge is about to find out Ripley can mix it with them. Probably helps that she's blue collar as opposed to Burke who may as well have 'office boy' tattooed on his forehead.
I stand corrected. This would still fall under the 'woman shows up men' line of scrutiny though.
Ellie Satler was a graduate student and in her 20s in the book, that Alan occasionally perved on. The movie made her a peer in paleobotany and in age: a change that would have really twisted this shithead's underpants. She also doesn't do nearly as much in the book as the movie. Also fun fact, the movie cut a shitload of cool stuff that Genaro (who was a badass in the novel) and Muldoon did like hunting raptors with rpgs.
Also, Alan Grant basically looked like Joel from The Last of Us. Not that Sam Neil isn't a handsome devil himself though, but they shrank his burly outdoorsy look practically to ziltch. He also got along fine with kids and actually loved how into dinosaurs they were in the book. Never cared much for the very obvious character arc his movie version was dealt.