Geohot Claims He's Never Heard of Sony Computer Entertainment of America
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
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Well, actually I don't think it is stupid. I'm a big believer in state rights, and the very idea that one of the things that allows the US to remain as free as it is, is for people to largely set their own laws and decide what goes on in their own back yard. One of the things that makes me a Republican (but not the only thing) is that I am very much a believe in the primacy of State and Local goverment, and that the federal goverment should butt out of a lot of the things it currently regulates or tries to. I won't go into more details on other specific issues, but in short I disagree with you about this being a bad thing. I'd rather be able to decide policy due to what's going on right here, than have some guy in DC doing it.Keava said:
That said, I can understand why this is annoying and complicated, with both sides of court cases wanting to use the laws of the areas they are in, but I think it's a lesser evil than taking away the abillity of states and even local towns to self regulate based on what the people in that area want.
All told though, I think this isn't about state Jurisdiction, it's about how legally binding the stupidity the game industry is trying to attach to it's products actually is. Honestly it seems like Geothotz is one of the first people to go up against a major company who has a lawyer who has a brain and wants to fight things the right way.
While sort of unconnected, one point I've long made was that you never actually see the EULA when you pay money for a product. It's not posted on the box, or provided by the store or anything else, once you see that agreement you generally can't return the product, whether it's a game or a console, at least not for your full value, not to mention whatever your time and trouble involved is worth. They pretty much take your money and then say "thanks, now if you want to actually use what you bought, you need to agree to this". In general a contract has to be provided before money changes hands for things like this, however it's never been fought on that level.
I'm guessing that's the next step in the Geohotz defense if it goes that far, right now the basic point they are making is that there was nothing on the box that mentioned any accountability to anyone, and actually specified the product was being provided by a group seperate from who is trying to regulate it. The point being that he purchused a product from Sony: Japan, that's who he thought he was doing business with, and that's the policies he thought he'd be dealing with... which incidently also means he can't be prosecuted for something like this by a Japanese court which is what it comes down to, since the US probably won't extradite him for something like this, if Japan even wanted to try and do it given the time, trouble, and expense.
Granted he's being an arsehole with the whole "I've never ever heard of the SCEA before" thing, but that's kind of a smokescreen since honestly I don't think it matters to the fundemental point, nor does him not opening the docs. Even if he did read the docs, and
knew who SCEA was, the point is he never agreed to do business with them or submit to their regulation when he actually paid money. There is no contract implicit in the purchuse specified on the box, nor was there any documentation signed before money changed hands.
Whether you like Geohotz or not, it seems like he's got a defense that knows what it's doing.
To be honest I'm cheering for him, I have mixed opinions about what he did specifically, but honestly I think someone needs to kick the can of these EULAs and such as they are becoming ridiculous. It would be nice if we weren't looking at a dubious case like this one being used to establish the precedent.
This guy's sounding more like a fucking jackass asshole every single time he appears in the news.
I think people who have no fucking clue on how the law and application of the law works should avoid posting. It's not about oppinions and what you think, it's about facts, evidence and well, what you can prove. Plus in this case, it's only the preliminaries to determine where to hold the trial... THIS ISN'T A TRIAL YET!
So far every person calling Geohot a liar missed the point by a lightyear, and those saying he deserves to lose don't understand that if he does lose the case, It'll make a precedent where manufacturers will be able to sue their consumers!
Would you imagine being sued for modifying your car? Well you should have read the lease/sale contract! Oh but you just wanted the airbag and seatbelts back, those that they removed on a recall update? Though shit, you're going down the slammer!
Really shows that the average age of the users are well under 16 years old.
my two cents.
So far every person calling Geohot a liar missed the point by a lightyear, and those saying he deserves to lose don't understand that if he does lose the case, It'll make a precedent where manufacturers will be able to sue their consumers!
Would you imagine being sued for modifying your car? Well you should have read the lease/sale contract! Oh but you just wanted the airbag and seatbelts back, those that they removed on a recall update? Though shit, you're going down the slammer!
Really shows that the average age of the users are well under 16 years old.
my two cents.
Well, actually I think it's probably best to say Sony is it's own self-contained entity at this point. It's pretty much the inspiration for the "evil Japanacorps" in dark future fiction and a lot has been said about it for decades.James Raynor said:
It was founded in Japan, but it's spread out throughout the world so much that it's not centrally based anywhere anymone. The entire Japan section could be raided and wiped out somehow, and Sony would survive, and still be ridiculously powerful. Hence the whole thing about corperations being more powerful than any nation, and so on.
I say this not to be a smart ass, but because the whole point of things like the SCEA is for them to have a "base" in every nation they operate in, all of which are part of a whole but can function independantly. This is incidently also one of the reasons why it can be specified he did business with Sony Japan, as opposed to SCEA.
This is a fairly rare situation with corperate tricks being thrown back at them, one of the ways companies avoid accountability is to play jurisdictional games, when called on something they will sit there and say "well, the US can't do anything to us, because this was all done by Sony Japan and you need to deal with the Japanese system" it becomes a matter of shuffling paperwork. In this case though Geohotz has documentation of a sort, in the forum of the box from the console, which bears the Sony Japan logo because it was presumably manufactured there and he's argueing that SCEA has nothing to do with what he agreed to at the time of purchuse.
At least that's how I understand things. It's not as simple as saying "Sony is a Japanese corperation" anymore, even if it started there and is run largely by ethnic Japanese... and like a lot of businesses nowadays, they refuse to be tied down and really define themselves as being based anywhere.
I remember being told that Sony DOES have a mission statement about the empowerment of Japanese culture, stated in a fairly disturbing fashion. If true, I suppose that could be used to tie them to Japan in a legal sense if the need arose, but it would be very teneous.
I can almost guarantee if the Japanese goverment was ever pressured to do something about Sony (unlikely) the first arguement you'd hear is that they couldn't do anything effective because they weren't actually Japanese anymore.
Besides what has already been posted about determining jurisdiction rather then mounting a defense, most people are confusing ignorance of law with ignorance of fact. Claiming that you didn't know that poisoning someone is illegal will not save you; claiming that you did not know that somebody had a rare lethal food allergy to something you just fed them will, if the only way you would have known (if they didn't tell you) is if you looked at their medic-alert bracelet. Or, to use a previous example - not knowing the posted speed limit vs not being able to see the sign that lowers it by 20mph because it is overgrown by a tree.
It comes down to what is reasonably expected; all the marking on the box and the machine were for Sony, not SCEA, and what would be displayed on playing a game is not important as he was dealing with the PS3 not a game. He would have reasonably as much expectation of being sued by BioWare because he played Dragon Age once. (Again this is in relation to jurisdiction not whether he is guilty/innocent.)
It comes down to what is reasonably expected; all the marking on the box and the machine were for Sony, not SCEA, and what would be displayed on playing a game is not important as he was dealing with the PS3 not a game. He would have reasonably as much expectation of being sued by BioWare because he played Dragon Age once. (Again this is in relation to jurisdiction not whether he is guilty/innocent.)
Actually they're pissed that he posted the security keys (which he doesn't own btw) on the internet.mxfox408 said:
They're actually more upset at the fact that he posted the root security key (which he does not own) online.mxfox408 said:
Edit: Gah, why is it this like the only site that gives me connection issues?
... are him and me the only people to file away the manuals, even tho they probably won't be needed?
Tend to chuck the boxes after so long as I don't have room to keep them, but keep the manuals for most things just in case there's some obscure thing I need to know how to do or something ¬¬.
Yeah, "they look pretty" is a stupid excuse imo.
Tend to chuck the boxes after so long as I don't have room to keep them, but keep the manuals for most things just in case there's some obscure thing I need to know how to do or something ¬¬.
Yeah, "they look pretty" is a stupid excuse imo.
The same way 100's of millions of Americans could not know what's in most of what they eat?Asuro_Aguero said:
It's quite easy to be very entrenched in an activity and be largely ignorant of the (very important) specifics.
Your officers would be quite wrong then unfortunately. One of our own Supreme Court Justices recently broke tax laws because he was "ignorant of the fact he needed to disclose his wifes income."Frank_Sinatra_ said:
So if the highest court in the United States can feign ignorance and get in no trouble at all, I would suspect it's fair game for all.
Also, while I'm not a hacker, I hadn't the slightest clue what SCEA was myself
.Not a fan of this kid, but I'm reminded of my previous jobs with his points. Never assume the average smuck knows as much as you do about something you like. Once you do you've lost a sale.
I do it too. I have every manual for every game I've ever owned, even games I no longer have.tharglet said:
Also have manuals to vacuums I haven't had in a 5 years, blenders that broke long ago, and various other things.
One of these days I'll read one and a new product I own might not get destroyed :/.
Can we get another non Seth Green photo of this guy? He looks so stupid I can't take it seriously if he was battle Sony over putting a PS3 agreement of stealing your first born child.
But as it goes the licensing agreements still need to go, they are a wee bit to invasive. And I always doubted the control they try and exert past stealing free games and cheating.
Think the point is, if you call it a Sony playstation, have no label of SCEA blatantly on the box he's saying they can't even communicate their claim of manufacture.
It's silly, but the point is unless you read 50 pages of agreement written in a lawyer language normal people wouldn't understand your not required to agree to it. Which I would say works, if the common man or woman with a normal education can't understand all that babble then the company is hiding something and chances are their agreement is crossing the bounds.
But as it goes the licensing agreements still need to go, they are a wee bit to invasive. And I always doubted the control they try and exert past stealing free games and cheating.
Think the point is, if you call it a Sony playstation, have no label of SCEA blatantly on the box he's saying they can't even communicate their claim of manufacture.
It's silly, but the point is unless you read 50 pages of agreement written in a lawyer language normal people wouldn't understand your not required to agree to it. Which I would say works, if the common man or woman with a normal education can't understand all that babble then the company is hiding something and chances are their agreement is crossing the bounds.
Have you ever read the PS3's EULA? Based on your erroneous assertions, I suspect that you haven't. It isn't written in legalese that only a lawyer can understand. It's actually written in plain English that anyone with at least a high school education should be perfectly capable of understanding. And it's nowhere near 50 pages in length. It's more like 5 pages, if that. See http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html.Carlston said:
I fear you suffer from the same failure that so many disgruntled PS3 owners also apparently suffer: failing to read the PS3's EULA in the first place.
I think the image is supposed to match the general feelings of the OP. They feel he's an idiot and so they use the worst image they could find of him.Carlston said:
Kind of like when people slam politicians they show a picture of them sneezing or something.
I think you are mistaken in your belief that a subsidiary corporation can function independently of its parent corporation. As a matter of American law governing corporate structures, a wholly-owned subsidiary corporation of a parent corporation has absolutely no independent authority of its own. The subsidiary corporation is completely governed by and subject to the will and whims of the parent corporation. Without the parent, the subsidiary has no existence of it's own.Therumancer said:
so, did you never own any of the PlayStations? a good bunch of PlayStation exclusive games since the PS1 and still now upon loading would bring up "Sony Computer Entertainment of America" in white text and black background, but then again, who really pays that much attention to the opening logos of videos game. (mashing the buttons till they all go away)Worgen said:
