George R.R. Martin Pulling Back From Game of Thrones Season Five

[Ratty]

To comment on the anger, I believe Neil Gaiman said it best: "George R.R. Martin is not your *****."

I'll admit to some exasperation myself, tho, I shan't lie. Not because I think Martin owes me anything, but because it's becoming more and more clear that the series itself is not good enough to warrant so much time. Simply put, there are authors out there who create superior art at a faster pace, and it's frustrating to see so much adoration heaped on this one series of books in dire need of a ruthless editor.

I've not watched the show but that's the general impression I get from the little I've read of ASoIaF. It's good but nowhere near as great (or devastatingly dark) as Berserk or as imaginative as say the Riftwar books. It just happens to be the series that filled the gaping hole in the market for "mature" high production value epic fantasy on the screen after LotR[footnote]And to some extent Harry Potter and Twilight as well. Since tons of young men and women today obsessed over Harry Potter as kids, fawned over Twilight as teens and now want another big fantasy series to obsess over with their friends.[/footnote] turned an entire generation or three of non-readers onto the genre.

 

[Cecilo]

To the "he has no obligation" crowd:
Yeah, and I have no obligation, legal, moral or hygenic, to refrain from spitting on the sidewalk in front of every person I pass on the street. That doesn't mean it's okay for me to do it or that other people would be out of line for calling me a dick.
GRRM has created a serialized work of art that many people care about deeply and he's made a great deal of money because of people's investment in the series. If he can't find time to write that's one thing and if he didn't realize how much of his time the series would take or how much it would burn him out on Westeros that's another thing; I truly sympathize. Nevertheless if he abandons ASoIaF in mid-stream for other projects his fans have every right to flame him for leaving them hanging. He's a grown-ass man, he knows what his fans want and he's smart enough to know that giving them something else will not be appreciated.

Well, no. You don't have an obligation to do those things, not doing them will make people hate you, and think you are an ass. But you don't have to do them. At the same time however, doing that doesn't require a great amount of effort on your part, it just requires you act like a decent human being.

If you want a more appropriate comparison, it would be like you hmm.. Closest thing that a normal person could do is I suppose a web series, you get half way through it and decide you no longer have motivation or interest in it. A lot of people may like it, but if you have no interest in it, you don't HAVE to do it. And if you force yourself to, it is going to go down in quality.

That's the problem, people expect the same quality, but at rushed rates, and you can't have both. That is not how it works.

 

[Infernai]

While I do admit I would be lying if i said i wasn't wanting him to finish the series before he died, I am not exactly as worried as I would be with some other projects. Why? Well, he's already gone and given HBO an ending to the series and an outline of basically the rest of the events so...worst case scenario is even if he dies, the series won't be left "Unfinished" unlike some other series in the past which have had this happen to them.
Plus, as Martin said in the past, he's not exactly in bad health so I doubt it's going to be a Wheel of Time Scenario here guys.

So relax, take a deep breath and just let Martin do his thing. Either way, the series is going to get an ending that Martin had a hand in.

 

[tofulove]

To the "he has no obligation" crowd:
Yeah, and I have no obligation, legal, moral or hygenic, to refrain from spitting on the sidewalk in front of every person I pass on the street. That doesn't mean it's okay for me to do it or that other people would be out of line for calling me a dick.
GRRM has created a serialized work of art that many people care about deeply and he's made a great deal of money because of people's investment in the series. If he can't find time to write that's one thing and if he didn't realize how much of his time the series would take or how much it would burn him out on Westeros that's another thing; I truly sympathize. Nevertheless if he abandons ASoIaF in mid-stream for other projects his fans have every right to flame him for leaving them hanging. He's a grown-ass man, he knows what his fans want and he's smart enough to know that giving them something else will not be appreciated.

You are also correct, but he also has the right to not give a fuck which is what I was at least trying to get to. But I also consider that the last 2 books were mostly crap, so I'm in the "clearly overrated" part of the moat where I really don't care if he never finishes.

Actually you do, most places i know of casually spitting all over the place is against the law. If you have a unbridled desire to spit, carry a handkerchief around. You not being a douche bag is not the same as you not writing a book.

 

[pearcinator]

So there's authors who can publish multiple, quality books in one year and then there's others like GRRM who take several years to write one novel.

There should be a happy medium. One novel every two years (no more). Who is his publisher? Paying GRRM all this money. If it weren't for the show then they probably would have stopped paying him. Obviously they won't now that the show has not only boosted book sales (by a huge amount I'm guessing) but has also made GoT a household name and up there with The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter when it comes to fantasy.

 

[Kontarek]

Sometimes it seems like George is the only person on this planet who still thinks that he will have a say in how the series or the books will end.

...I don't see how he won't have a say on how the books end. The show is a different story of course, as HBO is going to make whatever changes it feels are necessary to keep the viewers.

But the books are completely separate, and GRRM is going to write them however he wants.

snip

In response to your spoiler tag footnote, the character you mentioned has not yet been officially cut. When Benioff and Weiss were asked about that at Comic-Con they refused to comment, meaning it could go either way.

And even if this and other certain characters don't show up this season (Euron, Victarion), that doesn't mean they have been officially cut either. Ramsay Snow, the Reeds, and Mace Tyrell all showed up a season later than expected, I don't see why the same couldn't be true for these guys.

(Although it seems pretty certain now that Arianne has been cut.)

 

[Shinkicker444]

Woah, how rude? This guy doesn't owe you anything, he's not obligated to finish his book series at all, what gives you the right to call him a lazy ass?

He might be rockin' the jovial grandpa look, but he's far from an all around nice guy (like when he lost to Harry Potter ages ago). I don't care about the lazy part though.

Didn't he call Rowling a hack or something? Or was that a different author?

 

[nevarran]

The show is about to surpass his books anyway, there's no need for the guy there.
He can watch the show from his home and grab and idea or two

 

[Elijin]

To the "he has no obligation" crowd:
Yeah, and I have no obligation, legal, moral or hygenic, to refrain from spitting on the sidewalk in front of every person I pass on the street. That doesn't mean it's okay for me to do it or that other people would be out of line for calling me a dick.
GRRM has created a serialized work of art that many people care about deeply and he's made a great deal of money because of people's investment in the series. If he can't find time to write that's one thing and if he didn't realize how much of his time the series would take or how much it would burn him out on Westeros that's another thing; I truly sympathize. Nevertheless if he abandons ASoIaF in mid-stream for other projects his fans have every right to flame him for leaving them hanging. He's a grown-ass man, he knows what his fans want and he's smart enough to know that giving them something else will not be appreciated.

Lots of places blatantly spitting in public walkways and such is illegal.

And furthermore, lots of places, you spit directly in someone's path, near them or in their general direction, that could be considered instigating minor assault.

So I guess that analogy fell apart immediately.

 

[Razorback0z]

Good idea, please finish the damn story lines before you die George. We don't need the last half a book written by Michael Bay.

 

[Exterminas]

Sometimes it seems like George is the only person on this planet who still thinks that he will have a say in how the series or the books will end.

...I don't see how he won't have a say on how the books end. The show is a different story of course, as HBO is going to make whatever changes it feels are necessary to keep the viewers.

But the books are completely separate, and GRRM is going to write them however he wants.

snip

In response to your spoiler tag footnote, the character you mentioned has not yet been officially cut. When Benioff and Weiss were asked about that at Comic-Con they refused to comment, meaning it could go either way.

And even if this and other certain characters don't show up this season (Euron, Victarion), that doesn't mean they have been officially cut either. Ramsay Snow, the Reeds, and Mace Tyrell all showed up a season later than expected, I don't see why the same couldn't be true for these guys.

(Although it seems pretty certain now that Arianne has been cut.)

Martin is going to die before he finishes the books. At least it is very likely that he will. I mean, look at his work pace and then look at this guy: His he the sort of man that lives to be produtive in his 80s or 90s? No, quite frankly. And he isn't going to become a faster writer with increasing age, he is going to become slower.

He is going to pull a Robert Jordan on the book series and it seems like he is the only one who is still adamant that this will not happen. Someone else will finish the books and the series will run out of books to adapt soon, so they will likely start making up their own stuff.

Granted, I have exaggerated that, sure Martin will "have a say" in that, like his wishes and ideas (so far as they exist) might fall into consideration. But seeing as how things went with Jordan, there is also going to be a lot of foreign influence in the finished work

 

[RoonMian]

Hey, while he's at it... Could he also finish a few new Wild Cards books?

 

[DEAD34345]

snip

In response to your spoiler tag footnote, the character you mentioned has not yet been officially cut. When Benioff and Weiss were asked about that at Comic-Con they refused to comment, meaning it could go either way.

And even if this and other certain characters don't show up this season (Euron, Victarion), that doesn't mean they have been officially cut either. Ramsay Snow, the Reeds, and Mace Tyrell all showed up a season later than expected, I don't see why the same couldn't be true for these guys.

(Although it seems pretty certain now that Arianne has been cut.)

The interview the character's actor seems to make it pretty final and official to me:

Spoiler

You couldn?t have missed the online furor over the lack of Lady Stoneheart in the Thrones finale. Were you surprised by that attention?
I actually haven?t seen any of that. I don?t look that stuff up. I avoid it like the plague. I was totally unaware.

There was a lot of online conversation. I heard third-hand that you were basically told that it?s not likely to ever happen. Is that accurate?
Yeah, the character?s dead. She?s dead.

Do you have a preference at all?do you think Catelyn?s arc should end where it ended, or would you be into the resurrection idea?
You respect the writers? decision. I knew the arc, and that was it. They can?t stick to the books 100 percent. It?s impossible?they only have 10 hours per season. They have got to keep it dramatic and exciting, and extraneous stuff along the way gets lost in order to maintain the quality of brilliant show.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/25/michelle-fairley-24-lady-stoneheart/

... And now you tell me Arianne has been cut too. Great.

I wouldn't even mind so much if I thought the alternate content would be good in its own way, but all of the worst scenes in each season are the ones the writers decided to add for themselves. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I can't help but feel the series is just going to become crappier and more generic as it deviates from the books more and more, because that's how the changes have all been in the past.

 

[Kontarek]

Martin is going to die before he finishes the books. At least it is very likely that he will. I mean, look at his work pace and then look at this guy: His he the sort of man that lives to be produtive in his 80s or 90s? No, quite frankly. And he isn't going to become a faster writer with increasing age, he is going to become slower.

He is going to pull a Robert Jordan on the book series and it seems like he is the only one who is still adamant that this will not happen. Someone else will finish the books and the series will run out of books to adapt soon, so they will likely start making up their own stuff.

Granted, I have exaggerated that, sure Martin will "have a say" in that, like his wishes and ideas (so far as they exist) might fall into consideration. But seeing as how things went with Jordan, there is also going to be a lot of foreign influence in the finished work

He's only 65; he could easily have another 15-20 years in him to finish the series (though I don't think it'll take him more than 10). While his dying before that is a possibility, it is hardly a certainty. We know nothing about what sort of health he is in, and frankly it's not really our business. Not to mention this article says he's at least trying to buckle down and write faster, and you can't really ask anything more from him than that.

The interview the character's actor seems to make it pretty final and official to me:

Spoiler

You couldn?t have missed the online furor over the lack of Lady Stoneheart in the Thrones finale. Were you surprised by that attention?
I actually haven?t seen any of that. I don?t look that stuff up. I avoid it like the plague. I was totally unaware.

There was a lot of online conversation. I heard third-hand that you were basically told that it?s not likely to ever happen. Is that accurate?
Yeah, the character?s dead. She?s dead.

Do you have a preference at all?do you think Catelyn?s arc should end where it ended, or would you be into the resurrection idea?
You respect the writers? decision. I knew the arc, and that was it. They can?t stick to the books 100 percent. It?s impossible?they only have 10 hours per season. They have got to keep it dramatic and exciting, and extraneous stuff along the way gets lost in order to maintain the quality of brilliant show.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/25/michelle-fairley-24-lady-stoneheart/

... And now you tell me Arianne has been cut too. Great.

I wouldn't even mind so much if I thought the alternate content would be good in its own way, but all of the worst scenes in each season are the ones the writers decided to add for themselves. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I can't help but feel the series is just going to become crappier and more generic as it deviates from the books more and more, because that's how the changes have all been in the past.

Lucky for us the actors/actresses have zero say in whether or not their characters are cut. The person in the interview could be lying or could legitimately not realize that the character still has a part to play. Gotta wait for word from Weiss and Benioff for it to be official.

And I was initially upset about Arianne being cut as well, but the more I thought about it the more it made sense. I suspect they are going to divide up her (admittedly small at this point) role among the 3 Sand Snakes (and possibly Trystane). We as an audience already have a bit of connection with the Sand Snakes because we met their father, Oberyn, last season and were enraged by his death, which they likely will be as well. If it's going to be that death and the anger resulting from it driving the action in Dorne next season, why not express it through the man's daughters instead of his niece? It seems to me the Sand Snakes are far more interesting than Arianne anyways, and could fill her book four role without too much trouble at all.

 

[Razhem]

Is it really that much of a loss loosing Lady Stoneheart and Arianne, at least for now? The whole of the Martell family outside of the Oberyn have been a joke since they are all talk and no do currently and the Lady Stoneheart plotline doesn't really seem to know where it's going after the fifth book.

 

[Kontarek]

Is it really that much of a loss loosing Lady Stoneheart and Arianne, at least for now? The whole of the Martell family outside of the Oberyn have been a joke since they are all talk and no do currently and the Lady Stoneheart plotline doesn't really seem to know where it's going after the fifth book.

And we were so carefully avoiding mentioning LS by name...

Well if you'd heard what GRRM confirmed about TWOW prologue at Comic-Con, you might not be so quick to say that that plotline doesn't know where it's going.

Spoiler

He confirmed Jeyne Westerling will make an appearance (though the POV remains unnamed), and if we should consider Jaime's book four thoughts about how she might be useful to certain rebel groups (obviously LS and the BwB) then I think we've got a pretty clear picture of what might happen in that prologue...

 

[ForumSafari]

How dare he do anything other than spend 24 hours a day writing the book? We don't want the book to be good, we want it now!

Honestly, calm down a little. You've bought his previous books, and he's under no obligation to provide you with another. He's under no obligation to finish the series if he doesn't want to, especially not now that the TV show will end the story whatever happens.

He isn't obligated exactly, though it'd be bad form not to wrap them up, but in the fantasy world GRRM is basically the equivalent of Peter Molyneux. It's perfectly understandable, after the lax editorial control and the spiralling chances that we'll never see how the story ends, that people are starting to run out of patience with him.

 

[Exterminas]

Martin is going to die before he finishes the books. At least it is very likely that he will. I mean, look at his work pace and then look at this guy: His he the sort of man that lives to be produtive in his 80s or 90s? No, quite frankly. And he isn't going to become a faster writer with increasing age, he is going to become slower.

He is going to pull a Robert Jordan on the book series and it seems like he is the only one who is still adamant that this will not happen. Someone else will finish the books and the series will run out of books to adapt soon, so they will likely start making up their own stuff.

Granted, I have exaggerated that, sure Martin will "have a say" in that, like his wishes and ideas (so far as they exist) might fall into consideration. But seeing as how things went with Jordan, there is also going to be a lot of foreign influence in the finished work

He's only 65; he could easily have another 15-20 years in him to finish the series (though I don't think it'll take him more than 10). While his dying before that is a possibility, it is hardly a certainty. We know nothing about what sort of health he is in, and frankly it's not really our business. Not to mention this article says he's at least trying to buckle down and write faster, and you can't really ask anything more from him than that.

I can't understand how you concile your optimism with the data at hand. I just checked his bibliography again:

The second and thrid book took him two years to write. The fourth took him five years, the fith six years.

Now, If I am being optimistic and assume that the next two books will only take him six years, I get the following time table:

Next book: 2017
Last book: 2023.

So by the time the last book releases Martin will be 75. How many overweight 70-year-old americans do you know that don't have any serious health conditions that slow down their productivy? Like cancer or diabetis?

And that is not even accounting for the fact that Martin will very likely take longer for the last two books than six years, because he is who he is and has been taking increasingly longer for each book in the past.

 

[mindfaQ]

It would be good if he'd manage to finish his work. Otherwise I don't know what turn it will take. Would the series stay discontinued or take the route of The Wheel of Time and get finished with the help of notes by another competent fantasy author. Guess it's no use to plan that out now (but it might be good to make a clear plan where the series is going and how it's going to end; in case something happens).