Georgia Rep. Park Cannon Speaks Out for First Time Since Arrest

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So, as ever, you seem almost allergic to educating yourself even when directly provided with sources. Normally I'd just disengage again at this point because why bother if you're not even trying. I'm in a weird mood though, so let's do this...

yeh most of that doesn't address what I've just said infact it seems to echo it in an age when increasingly more things require a form of ID.

Now if you'd said the specifics of this individual iteration of it and the attachments to the bill itself or it not allowing a wide enough range of ID are the problem you'd have an argument but ID itself?
Since your initial argument included absolutely zero "specifics of this individual iteration of it and the attachments to the bill itself", I'm just going to ignore your goalpost moving and continue on.

So are you just opposing it cause you've been told to?


Because again wouldn't that mean attempting to push to remove ID requirements for the services of a number of other businesses too?
It's almost like there's a difference between constitutional rights and private services... I'll let you figure out which category voting falls under.


Just to ask is this all about that Voter ID law where the opponents seem to be saying Black people are too dumb / incompetent to be able to get government ID of some kind (and yes people were saying black people wouldn't know hot to get ID or where their local DMV was) so it shouldn't be brought it while it's been shown just how many things need an ID that could be used including many of the companies opposing the bill who require ID to use their services some even down to just buying tickets to see shows or things?
Maybe if I quote the exact portion of the page you'll read it this time?
https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet said:
Voter ID Laws Are Discriminatory
  • Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.6
  • States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
  • Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.7
  • Voter ID laws reduce turnout among minority voters. Several studies, including a 2014 GAO study, have found that photo ID laws have a particularly depressive effect on turnout among racial minorities and other vulnerable groups, worsening the participation gap between voters of color and whites.8
Cause honestly if it is that bill seriously? Just really seriously?
If people really are pushing this claim doesn't that make a lot of the companies requiring ID racist too?
Where's the bills to deal with that I'm pretty sure excluding service on racial grounds is an offence and all they're doing is adding 1 more step by require ID.
And again, maybe if I quote the exact portion of the page you'll actually read it.
https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet said:
Voter ID Requirements are a Solution in Search of a Problem
  • In-person fraud is vanishingly rare. A recent study found that, since 2000, there were only 31 credible allegations of voter impersonation – the only type of fraud that photo IDs could prevent – during a period of time in which over 1 billion ballots were cast.9
  • Identified instances of “fraud” are honest mistakes. So-called cases of in-person impersonation voter “fraud” are almost always the product of an elections worker or a voter making an honest mistake, and that even these mistakes are extremely infrequent.10
  • Voter ID laws are a waste of taxpayer dollars. States incur sizeable costs when implementing voter ID laws, including the cost of educating the public, training poll workers, and providing IDs to voters.
    • Texas spent nearly $2 million on voter education and outreach efforts following passage of its Voter ID law.11
    • Indiana spent over $10 million to produce free ID cards between 2007 and 2010.12
 

Dwarvenhobble

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So, as ever, you seem almost allergic to educating yourself even when directly provided with sources. Normally I'd just disengage again at this point because why bother if you're not even trying. I'm in a weird mood though, so let's do this...



Since your initial argument included absolutely zero "specifics of this individual iteration of it and the attachments to the bill itself", I'm just going to ignore your goalpost moving and continue on.







It's almost like there's a difference between constitutional rights and private services... I'll let you figure out which category voting falls under.




Maybe if I quote the exact portion of the page you'll read it this time?




And again, maybe if I quote the exact portion of the page you'll actually read it.
So as you insist on playing at this sophistry.

My argument had Zero specifics about the bill because as already pointed out in the ACLU article multiple places in the USA already have Voter ID laws in place.

As I could also point out India has voter ID laws in place


Are you really telling me the USA is less economically or structurally capable than India and citizens of the USA less economically capable then people in India?

As for Private sector vs public access to banking service and things like paypal to send and receive money will have more of an impact on a persons life than what coloured hat the person in office is wearing especially now when it's almost the same policies just with different PR spins. Oh and the argument about voter ID laws is they're racist and last I checked racial discrimination wasn't allowed by even private companies so where is the anger at these companies racially discriminating.

Also again if ID is needed for so much already where are the schemes for getting people IDs that would be a better response to this bill then trying to outright block and and present a ton of problems and go in essence "Yeh but we don't want to actually solve those issues just stop you trying to prevent any possible issues" I mean I thought the Russians stole the election in 2016?
 
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Kae

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I think the weirdest thing about voter ID advocates is that they claim that everyone would be able to get an ID, but if everyone gets one doesn't that mean that it's unnecessary and just a waste of time and resources?

Ultimately it's disingenuous, the system as is right now is already discriminatory and even leaving aside the fact that representative democracy isn't even real democracy in the first place the way it's already set up makes it hard to vote for illiterate people which in the USA is roughly around 21% of the entire adult population, keeping in mind that since they can't read they're less likely to participate in surveys and therefore it's probably more.

Perhaps this means that the education system isn't effective and the fact that illiteracy is treated as interchangeable with stupidity makes it harder for them to openly admit their illiteracy and do something about it.

In any case as someone that used to work with a lot of illiterate customers this makes me extremely sad as in my experience they tend to demean themselves and call themselves stupid when they admit it, which is depressing to see, ultimately rather than caring about bullshit made up solutions to non-existent problems we should perhaps invest in actually worthwhile projects like combating illiteracy, ultimately it's a systematic problem but the least that can be done is stop making illiterate people feel ashamed of themselves so that they can more confidently seek help and so that they can start participating in politics too, after all anyone that claims to love democracy should want every single citizen to have the capacity to vote.
 

Agema

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I think the weirdest thing about voter ID advocates is that they claim that everyone would be able to get an ID, but if everyone gets one doesn't that mean that it's unnecessary and just a waste of time and resources?
Pretty much. You have to bear in mind that if states can barely run their voter rolls properly, they're hardly going to be able to manage a voter ID system effectively either. Never mind that organised fraudsters will find ways to break or get round this system anyway. Law enforcement has spent over four decades vigorously trying to clamp down on the drugs trade, and all we've learnt is that criminals are sufficiently ingenious to develop tactics to get round whatever obstacles are placed in their way. That's if there were organised fraud of this nature to be prevented by these measures, but as discussed above, there isn't any in the first place.

The basic idea of this system is that the authors know that poor people have chaotic or disrupted lives. They can be offered free ID cards, and they're more likely to lose them, have them stolen, fail to change key data (e.g. addresses), forget to request / renew them, or even just forget to take it to the poll station, etc. Every additional bureaucratic burden placed will mean some people will be caught out and unable to vote, and this will disproportionately hit poor people, and poor people disproportionately vote Democrat. One cannot help but suspect there are similar processes in terms of banning handing out food and water. If you can make try to make the polling station queues long and time-consuming enough, the more unpleasant the experience is, the more people will get fed up and not vote.

In the short term, it may not actually work or even be counterproductive. The reason being that it may spur activists to put much more effort into ensuring that people are properly registered and have the right forms and ID. I will absolutely bet you these measures will accompanied by increased scrutiny of and media / political / legal harassment of groups who attempt to encourage registration and election involvement to suppress their activities.
 

Seanchaidh

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Every additional bureaucratic burden placed will mean some people will be caught out and unable to vote, and this will disproportionately hit poor people, and poor people disproportionately vote Democrat.
The people who fund Republicans (and Democrats) would rather poor people not vote regardless.
 
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tstorm823

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I think the weirdest thing about voter ID advocates is that they claim that everyone would be able to get an ID, but if everyone gets one doesn't that mean that it's unnecessary and just a waste of time and resources?
No. The purpose of voter ID isn't to exclude people without IDs. It's to identify and verify who voters are. A voter ID isn't meant to be a license to exclude people, it's meant to be an identifier like a birth certificate or social security number. Hell, the controversial mail-in ID provision of this bill includes social security numbers as an option, which every single legal voter already has, whether or not they wanted one.
 

Buyetyen

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No. The purpose of voter ID isn't to exclude people without IDs.
For Republicans, yes it is. If it was really about making sure everyone can be positively IDed, they would pay to issue everyone an ID as soon as they're old enough to vote. Some countries do that. The US doesn't.
 

tstorm823

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For Republicans, yes it is. If it was really about making sure everyone can be positively IDed, they would pay to issue everyone an ID as soon as they're old enough to vote. Some countries do that. The US doesn't.
The US doesn't run US elections. The states run US elections. People can freely move from state to state, but can only vote in one, making it significantly more complicated. Also why voter rolls are tricky and need to be purged. Regardless, it makes sense that the federal government who doesn't manage the elections wouldn't naturally just issue such a thing. I think we could have a national voter id though. I'm for it. If anything, it helps solve the issue of people moving states, since requiring a federal id would theoretically impede someone from trying to vote in multiple states. I don't think there's anything preventing Congress from enacting such a thing... well, except for the politics. You've got the libertarian-minded people on one side who hate the idea because they thoughtlessly oppose any registry of anything ever, and on the other-side you've got race-baiters who insist that any form of voter identification is a Jim Crow law. Neither is keen to vote for such a thing.

And in the mean time, the people who are determining how elections happen are doing what they can within their state. Every state with a voter id requirement will provide one for free. Nobody is attempting to make it difficult.
 

Kae

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No. The purpose of voter ID isn't to exclude people without IDs. It's to identify and verify who voters are. A voter ID isn't meant to be a license to exclude people, it's meant to be an identifier like a birth certificate or social security number. Hell, the controversial mail-in ID provision of this bill includes social security numbers as an option, which every single legal voter already has, whether or not they wanted one.
Sounds like a really roundabout way of saying absolutely nothing, even if your point was remotely close to valid, which it isn't, it's still looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, so again, why waste time and resources in such an inane thing?

I mean your country is so ass-backwards that individual votes basically count for nothing anyway.
 
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tstorm823

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Sounds like a really roundabout way of saying absolutely nothing, even if your point was remotely close to valid, which it isn't, it's still looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, so again, why waste time and resources in such an inane thing?
I don't suppose you live in a country with voter identification, do you? Were they solving a problem that didn't exist by implementing that? Was is ass-backwards to do so?
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I don't suppose you live in a country with voter identification, do you? Were they solving a problem that didn't exist by implementing that? Was is ass-backwards to do so?
I live in a state that doesn't require photo ID *and* no excuse mail in voting, and despite being able to count all of the cases of deliberate voter fraud in the last 20 years on a single hand with space left over, Republicans want to make it harder to vote "to secure the elections"
 
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Gordon_4

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I live in a state that doesn't require photo ID *and* no excuse mail in voting, and despite being able to count all of the cases of deliberate voter fraud in the last 20 years on a single hand with space left over, Republicans want to make it harder to vote "to secure the elections"
I don’t ever remember having to provide ID when I vote. It’s always just been my name, and my address. It gets crossed out on the electoral roll at the polling station and that was it.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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I think the weirdest thing about voter ID advocates is that they claim that everyone would be able to get an ID, but if everyone gets one doesn't that mean that it's unnecessary and just a waste of time and resources?

Ultimately it's disingenuous, the system as is right now is already discriminatory and even leaving aside the fact that representative democracy isn't even real democracy in the first place the way it's already set up makes it hard to vote for illiterate people which in the USA is roughly around 21% of the entire adult population, keeping in mind that since they can't read they're less likely to participate in surveys and therefore it's probably more.

Perhaps this means that the education system isn't effective and the fact that illiteracy is treated as interchangeable with stupidity makes it harder for them to openly admit their illiteracy and do something about it.

In any case as someone that used to work with a lot of illiterate customers this makes me extremely sad as in my experience they tend to demean themselves and call themselves stupid when they admit it, which is depressing to see, ultimately rather than caring about bullshit made up solutions to non-existent problems we should perhaps invest in actually worthwhile projects like combating illiteracy, ultimately it's a systematic problem but the least that can be done is stop making illiterate people feel ashamed of themselves so that they can more confidently seek help and so that they can start participating in politics too, after all anyone that claims to love democracy should want every single citizen to have the capacity to vote.
What you need ID for:

Legally drive in the USA
Have a bank account
Have a Paypal account
Buy tickets to a number of events
Buy alcohol
Buy Weed
Watch age gated content on youtube (yes really that's a new thing being brought in)
Some states welfare payments
Gun registration / ownership
Permits for protests etc
To legally get married
Certain medication purchases.

Would it really be a waste of time to push for people to have some form of ID to access said services?

Some states apply ID laws to gun ownership with is the 2nd amendment right but voting is seen as a problem to require ID? Supposedly the right to bear arms is a right every US citizen has but that's restricted by ID laws so it seems funny really people are trying to make the argument against voter ID laws when the same people really aren't going to be calling for repeals of gun ID laws anytime soon.

Here it's Fox news but it kinda shows the almost hilarity of the voter ID debate


As for the argument about people who are illiterate......... how the hell do they manage to get through life? I mean even to vote you have to be able to read the names of the candidates to know who you're voting for most places I'd imagine so already the system is excluding them from truly having a voice.
 

tstorm823

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I live in a state that doesn't require photo ID *and* no excuse mail in voting, and despite being able to count all of the cases of deliberate voter fraud in the last 20 years on a single hand with space left over, Republicans want to make it harder to vote "to secure the elections"
There's a problem with the idea that because we don't catch many people committing a crime, that means it isn't being committed. There's also a problem with the idea that a crime isn't worth preventing until after people are doing it. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever stolen the nuclear launch codes, but we still very much want those secured anyway. I'd say an election deserves a certain amount of preemptive consideration, and our elections certainly already have layers of protection, so it's not as though a different method is somehow contradictory.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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There's a problem with the idea that because we don't catch many people committing a crime, that means it isn't being committed. There's also a problem with the idea that a crime isn't worth preventing until after people are doing it. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever stolen the nuclear launch codes, but we still very much want those secured anyway. I'd say an election deserves a certain amount of preemptive consideration, and our elections certainly already have layers of protection, so it's not as though a different method is somehow contradictory.
You're right: our elections certainly already have layers of protection.

Prove there's a problem with those before "fixing" something that isn't broken
 

Dwarvenhobble

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You're right: our elections certainly already have layers of protection.

Prove there's a problem with those before "fixing" something that isn't broken
Ok so you're for not bothering reforming any other system until there is a big enough issue?

So a few dead from a faulty pharmaceutical wouldn't matter if it were to happen right?