Ghost in the Shell Casting Shows We Need More Than White Feminism

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
Ghost in the Shell Casting Shows We Need More Than White Feminism

Hollywood has a bad problem with casting women; it has an even worse problem with casting women who aren?t white.

Read Full Article
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
as a fan of Asian cinema...they do have their own industry y'know...plenty of (extremely famous, accomplished and talented) Asian women cast there...

there's more to the world than the Hollywood zeitgeist...and i see no reason why Hollywood should not equally serve its own (primarily home) market demographics.

that said it would be nice if Ghost in the Shell was an international production...but US audiences don't generally go to see foreign language films afaik.

"asians" are 4.75% of the US population according to wikipedia ("whites" are 72.41%) people like to see representations they can equate with themselves.

there's not much potentially culturally affecting value to a film that fails at the box office...

the "draw" of specific headliners is an important factor both in terms of securing production and eventual economically viable success.

atm the fact Hollywood is prepared to make women the headline in blockbuster action movies and the audience is prepared to go along with it is a good thing.

in short Scarlet puts bums on seats...is trailblazing in that respect to a certain extent (given the types and size of film projects she is and is going to be involved in)...i see very little to condemn about that.

Rinko Kikuchi might be good...in a "recently visible" sense...but can she do that kind of work?..and how many people would actually go see a Rinko Kikuchi headlined movie compared a Scarlet one ?

far less is the uncomfortable real world answer to that...

...and at the end of the day this a billion dollar business we're talking about not a school play.
 

Aggieknight

New member
Dec 6, 2009
229
0
0
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?

I ask because Scarlett, besides being extremely hot, looks a heck of a lot like Motoko. Ergo the casting makes sense to me.

Hollywood does have a problem with whitewashing, for example - the recent Exodus and Noah movies, but I don't see this as a case.
 

Popido

New member
Oct 21, 2010
716
0
0
Hear hear. Lynch the white cis witch.

Remember the old times and accept your guilt.

Maybe they just wanted a big name lead rather than act of racism.

Aggieknight said:
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?
She has the mass produced doll look and has hard time identifying herself.
 

Liam Steel

New member
Oct 12, 2014
22
0
0
Sleekit said:
as a fan of Asian cinema...they do have their own industry y'know...plenty of (extremely famous and accomplished) Asian women cast there...

there's more to the world than the Hollywood zeitgeist...and i see no reason why Hollywood should not equally serve its own (primarily home) market demographics.

that said it would be nice if Ghost in the Shell was an international production...but US audiences don't generally go to see foreign language films afaik.
The problem is, increasingly Hollywood is serving a world market. Particularly these big blockbusters may make more money overseas than stateside. It does both a disservice to the material and it's audience to halfass the casting. I mean assuming they stay true to the political landscape is this going to still take place in Japan but have an entirely white American section 9?

Fortunately there's a new Ghost in the Shell anime to look forward to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUEktyhOSxg
 

Abomination

New member
Dec 17, 2012
2,939
0
0
The selected Scarlett Johansson because she's hot as hell, fits the figure, puts bums on seats, and let's not get into how so many anime characters look "white" anyway.

This isn't a racist issue in the slightest and it isn't even a feminism issue. Motoko Kusanagi has always been a woman, this role would be filled by a woman in any scenario.

What kind of bullshit clickbait topic is this anyway?

RACISM!

FEMINISM!

COLLECT VIEWS!

PROFIT!
 

Popido

New member
Oct 21, 2010
716
0
0
Liam Steel said:
Fortunately there's a new Ghost in the Shell anime to look forward to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUEktyhOSxg
Another? I hope this has nothing to do with Arise.

Abomination said:
The selected Scarlett Johansson because she's hot as hell, fits the figure, puts bums on seats, and let's not get into how so many anime characters look "white" anyway.

This isn't a racist issue in the slightest and it isn't even a feminism issue. Motoko Kusanagi has always been a woman, this role would be filled by a woman in any scenario.

What kind of bullshit clickbait topic is this anyway?

RACISM!

FEMINISM!

COLLECT VIEWS!

PROFIT!
I believe this is the writer that also deals with all the GamerGate/Social Justice news. Yes, I remembered that right.

TopazFusion said:
Solaire of Astora said:
TopazFusion said:
Escapist has posted their news article on the Intel thing

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.868408-Intel-Working-with-Feminist-Frequency-IGDA-to-Bolster-Diversity-in-Tech
Gah, nothing against Carly, but I've tended not to really enjoy reading her articles much lately. It's difficult to explain but she really lets the opinion seep through her writing. It is more subtle in this one but there's a certain spin she's putting on things that isn't really wrong. I just think it's rather underdeveloped.
She also seems to get given the lion's share of the GamerGate articles...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/tag/view/gamergate#tagsgamergate

Not sure why.
 

JennAnge

New member
May 15, 2012
86
0
0
"I understand why DreamWorks would cast a white woman, but I can't wait to live in a world where that reasoning is no longer acceptable. "

Yup.

And yes, Kusanagi could actually be of any race, gender or mechazoid she chooses her shell to be. It won't be complete BS that Johansson should play her. It's just that this was a golden opportunity to front an Asian actress. I understand the financial and investment logic behind that decision but I do not have to like it.

If they wanted to make an action flick with Johansson, that's great, she rocked Lucy, and I am all for more female leads in movies, but I sorta wished they could have picked another IP.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
Liam Steel said:
Sleekit said:
as a fan of Asian cinema...they do have their own industry y'know...plenty of (extremely famous and accomplished) Asian women cast there...

there's more to the world than the Hollywood zeitgeist...and i see no reason why Hollywood should not equally serve its own (primarily home) market demographics.

that said it would be nice if Ghost in the Shell was an international production...but US audiences don't generally go to see foreign language films afaik.
The problem is, increasingly Hollywood is serving a world market. Particularly these big blockbusters may make more money overseas than stateside. It does both a disservice to the material and it's audience to halfass the casting. I mean assuming they stay true to the political landscape is this going to still take place in Japan but have an entirely white American section 9?

Fortunately there's a new Ghost in the Shell anime to look forward to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUEktyhOSxg
i agree to a certain extent but a truly global film industry is very far away...and would require "western" audiences to be far more accepting and knowledgeable of "stars" from other parts of the world than it is atm.

to my mind perhaps the only person in Hollywood with a truly "futurist" global mindset in that vein (from an east-west bridge kinda pov) atm is weirdly Keanu Reaves...and sadly his last two projects...which he made with exactly that goal...were not a good as good as they could have been.

also ofc he looks "a bit asian" due to his Hawaiian and Chinese ancestry, likes and spends time in that part of the world and is hugely popular there.
 

Liam Steel

New member
Oct 12, 2014
22
0
0
Popido said:
Liam Steel said:
Fortunately there's a new Ghost in the Shell anime to look forward to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUEktyhOSxg
Another? I hope this has nothing to do with Arise.
Same creators dunno which canon it follows.

Sleekit said:
Liam Steel said:
Sleekit said:
as a fan of Asian cinema...they do have their own industry y'know...plenty of (extremely famous and accomplished) Asian women cast there...

there's more to the world than the Hollywood zeitgeist...and i see no reason why Hollywood should not equally serve its own (primarily home) market demographics.

that said it would be nice if Ghost in the Shell was an international production...but US audiences don't generally go to see foreign language films afaik.
The problem is, increasingly Hollywood is serving a world market. Particularly these big blockbusters may make more money overseas than stateside. It does both a disservice to the material and it's audience to halfass the casting. I mean assuming they stay true to the political landscape is this going to still take place in Japan but have an entirely white American section 9?

Fortunately there's a new Ghost in the Shell anime to look forward to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUEktyhOSxg
i agree to a certain extent but a truly global film industry is very far away...and would require "western" audiences to be far more accepting and knowledgeable of "stars" from other parts of the world than it is atm.

to my mind perhaps the only person in Hollywood with a truly global mindset (from an east-west bridge kinda pov) atm is weirdly Keanu Reaves and sadly his last two project were...not a good as good as the could have been.

also he looks "a bit asian" due to his Hawaiian and Chinese ancestry...
See my hope would have been to use Batou as a bridge character, esentially bait and switch the US viewer into seeing a movie with some big name star. But then the lead is a Japanese actress.

In either case I get what your saying, I can understand Hollywood wanting to play it safe.
 

shadowmagus

New member
Feb 2, 2011
435
0
0
I'm not looking forward to the movie, mostly because I don't think Hollywood can do the anime any true justice. What is worse though is that when they cast ScarJo, I knew these kind of opinion pieces were on the horizon. Not that I necessarily agree or disagree with them but because they always sound so whiny, "oppressed", and read like they belong on a tumblr blog, but with an editorial staff.
 

Soviet Heavy

New member
Jan 22, 2010
12,218
0
0
Like I said in the other thread on this, I don't have a problem with Johansson playing the Major. This is set after World War 4, they could set it in denmark and it wouldn't make much of a difference.

To put this into a strange reverse perspective, look at the live action adaptation of Attack on Titan coming out. The majority of the cast in the manga are ethnically white and much of the scenery is based on European designs. It's a big deal that Mikasa is one of the few asian people left in the world.

Then the japanese film industry makes their live action version and they cast all asians in the role of technically white people.
 

Trishbot

New member
May 10, 2011
1,318
0
0
You know who I think would be awesome in the role, but Hollywood won't go with her for "reasons"?
Pacific Rim's Rinko Kikuchi.

(No! Don't! It makes TOO much sense!)
 

Norix596

New member
Nov 2, 2010
442
0
0
This was my thought too; the ONLY way that this could be fit in well would be if it became a subplot about Kusanagi for some reason having recently been using a Caucasian looking body model (after all they can look like whatever they want when they're full prosthetic) and the other Japanese characters really have an issue with this or try and get her to fess up about why she's "ashamed of" or "hiding" her ethnicity and how much concepts such as that matter in the setting at the time now that people can replace their bodies at will.

However what I EXPECT to see is a movie that takes place in the United States with the attending primarily white actors without reference to Japan in the vein of All You Need is Kill -> Edge of Tomorrow etc.
 

Toilet

New member
Feb 22, 2012
401
0
0
Sleekit said:
as a fan of Asian cinema...they do have their own industry y'know...plenty of (extremely famous and accomplished) Asian women cast there...

there's more to the world than the Hollywood zeitgeist...and i see no reason why Hollywood should not equally serve its own (primarily home) market demographics.

that said it would be nice if Ghost in the Shell was an international production...but US audiences don't generally go to see foreign language films afaik.

"asians" are 4.75% of the US population according to wikipedia ("whites" are 72.41%) people like to see representations they can equate with themselves.

there's not much potentially culturally affecting value to a film that fails at the box office...

the "draw" of specific headliners is an important factor both in terms of securing production and eventual economically viable success.

atm the fact Hollywood is prepared to make women the headline in blockbuster action movies and the audience is prepared to go along with it is a good thing.

in short Scarlet puts bums on seats...is trailblazing in that respect to a certain extent (given the types and size of film projects she is and is going to be involved in)...i see very little to condemn about that.

Rinko Kikuchi might be good...in a recent "visible sense"...but can she do that kind of work?..and how many people would actually go see a Rinko Kikuchi headlined move compared a Scarlet one ?

far less is the uncomfortable real world answer to that...

...and at the end of the day this a billion dollar business we're talking about not a school play.
This, it's a non issue and definitely not a feminist issue. It's a western American take on a Japanese property so it's not an issue if a white, extremely popular ScarJo is cast as the lead. If there is a big huge outcry from Japan or the nip community then we get to ponder if we're awful for "whitewashing".

All depends if it's an American adaption of another countries property which Ghost in the Shell is or if it's an American movie set in a place that is distinctly ethnic like Exodus, Last Airbender ect ect. I half bet that this American Adaption of Ghost in the Shell will be set in a big USA city.

Almost makes me think if people would be mad if there was an American Ace Attorney movie, have a think.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
Liam Steel said:
See my hope would have been to use Batou as a bridge character, esentially bait and switch the US viewer into seeing a movie with some big name star. But then the lead is a Japanese actress.

In either case I get what your saying, I can understand Hollywood wanting to play it safe.
well that's just it. "big budget Hollywood"...is not actually about "rolling the dice".

they can't afford to be.

hell, one of the major studios was almost on the verge of collapse last year because it didn't hit the mark and put enough bums on seats with just a couple of "blockbuster" productions (sony i think...not sure).
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
Abomination said:
The selected Scarlett Johansson because she's hot as hell, fits the figure, puts bums on seats, and let's not get into how so many anime characters look "white" anyway.

This isn't a racist issue in the slightest and it isn't even a feminism issue. Motoko Kusanagi has always been a woman, this role would be filled by a woman in any scenario.

What kind of bullshit clickbait topic is this anyway?

RACISM!

FEMINISM!

COLLECT VIEWS!

PROFIT!
Instead of jumping to "clickbait," maybe read the article and see that Hollywood has always placed its star power on male actors and now white female actors. There are Asian actors who are repeatedly denied roles. Yes, Johansson could conceivably do this role well. Does it have to be her? No.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
wasted opportunity, sure. potential subpar anime adaptation hollywood butchering, sure.

sad that they picked a good looking, sufficiently good acting, proven can do action movies, crowd drawing, actress to play the lead role?

no, I am not.

stop going far out of your way to be offended, it is becoming really really really

really

really

reallyreallyreallyreally

really tiring.

stop it
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
34,595
1,213
118
Liam Steel said:
snip

Fortunately there's a new Ghost in the Shell anime to look forward to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUEktyhOSxg
Ooooh, nifty. It looks like the character design is different from Arise. That's usually code for a different continuity.

EDIT: http://kokaku-a.jp/movie/message.html

This is from the movie site. I don't read Japanese (if someone here does, that'd be nice), but the SAC movie sticks out.
 

Liam Steel

New member
Oct 12, 2014
22
0
0
Sleekit said:
Liam Steel said:
See my hope would have been to use Batou as a bridge character, esentially bait and switch the US viewer into seeing a movie with some big name star. But then the lead is a Japanese actress.

In either case I get what your saying, I can understand Hollywood wanting to play it safe.
well that's just it. "big budget Hollywood"...is not actually about "rolling the dice".

they can't afford to be.

hell, one of the major studios was almost on the verge of collapse last year because it didn't hit the mark and put enough bums on seats with just a couple of "blockbuster" productions (sony i think...not sure).
Sony's problems are far larger than a bad string of movies. And there's no roll of the dice involved, cast Tom Cruise, Leonardo DiCaprio, whatever big name star you want as the supporting man and your big budget SciFi can print as much money as you expect.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
roseofbattle said:
Does it have to be her? No.
can you name a Hollywood Asian actress you think would draw the same number of people (thus justifying the blockbuster budget this film will have) to the theaters by headlining such a film ?

i mean it took me a while even come up with Rinko Kikuchi...and she's never headlined such a movie and most people would be like "who ?".

seriously whatta ya got ? Lucy Liu ?

some things...are..."easy to say"...and not much else.

Liam Steel said:
Sony's problems are far larger than a bad string of movies. And there's no roll of the dice involved, cast Tom Cruise, Leonardo DiCaprio, whatever big name star you want as the supporting man and your big budget SciFi can print as much money as you expect.
maybe...but that does rather detract from having a woman headline a blockbuster sci-fi action movie/and the desired "feminism"/"progressiveness" of the thing does it not ?...

hell, why not just cast Sigourney in the next Expendables if that's all you want...

"don't worry about the woman, the guys will take care of it" is basically what you just said there.

sheeesh.

ps. im not entirely sure it was sony...but one of them was on the brink last year.
 

Andy Shandy

Fucked if I know
Jun 7, 2010
4,797
0
0
Yeah, while I can understand why they went with ScarJo, and have no doubt she could do a good job, it would've been nice for Hollywood to maybe use this as a chance to promote an Asian actress as a lead.
 

Hodlum

New member
Jan 8, 2015
1
0
0
Instead of jumping to "clickbait," maybe read the article and see that Hollywood has always placed its star power on male actors and now white female actors. There are Asian actors who are repeatedly denied roles. Yes, Johansson could conceivably do this role well. Does it have to be her? No.
I believe one large problem with your argument is, you believe Hollywood has control over where star power goes.

Hollywood follows market forces, not the other way around. Hollywood's market, i.e. America, currently wants certain star in their films. Your counter in the article was that Hollywood could 'make' non-white/non-male stars, but Hollywood isn't in the habit of betting 100 million dollar productions to 'make' a star.
 

midgetspoot

New member
Apr 30, 2013
7
0
0
Has/does Hollywood had a problem with whitewashing? Absolutely (I do think it is getting incrementally better, though Exodus was defiantly a step backward).

But from a strictly economic standpoint, Scarlett Johansson makes perfect sense. With Ghost in the Shell being, lets be honest, very far from the mainstream and niche, you need a big name actress to sell it.

Would someone like Rinko Kikuchi from Pacific Rim make as much, if not more, artistic sense, probably. But for better or worse this is the movie BUISNESS after all. So the bottom line wins.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
34,595
1,213
118
Sleekit said:
snip

Liam Steel said:
Sony's problems are far larger than a bad string of movies. And there's no roll of the dice involved, cast Tom Cruise, Leonardo DiCaprio, whatever big name star you want as the supporting man and your big budget SciFi can print as much money as you expect.
maybe...but that does rather detract from having a woman headline a blockbuster sci-fi action movie/and the desired "feminism"/"progressiveness" of the thing does it not ?...

hell why not just cast Sigourney in the next Expendables if that's all you want...

"don't worry about the woman, the guys will take care of it" is basically what you just said there.

sheeesh.
Legit question, why not cast Sigourney in an Expendables movie? That sounds bad ass.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
Legit question, why not cast Sigourney in an Expendables movie? That sounds bad ass.
actually i thought that too while writing it :p but given its a Stallone controlled "testosterone fueled" franchise i doubt it would turn out well in the end.

they don't even treat half the guys who show up well (Jet Li for example).
 

Scars Unseen

^ ^ v v < > < > B A
May 7, 2009
3,028
0
0
Soviet Heavy said:
Like I said in the other thread on this, I don't have a problem with Johansson playing the Major. This is set after World War 4, they could set it in denmark and it wouldn't make much of a difference.

To put this into a strange reverse perspective, look at the live action adaptation of Attack on Titan coming out. The majority of the cast in the manga are ethnically white and much of the scenery is based on European designs. It's a big deal that Mikasa is one of the few asian people left in the world.

Then the japanese film industry makes their live action version and they cast all asians in the role of technically white people.
Comparing the film industry of an almost entirely monoethnic nation to that of one of the most polyethnic ones isn't a very useful perspective IMO. Even were it something they wanted to do, Japanese studios would have a really difficult time finding a large cast of talented European or American actors that speak fluent Japanese. The reverse is not true.

Now, this movie in general doesn't bother me as much on this issue because the themes that the show cover are pretty much completely divorced from Japanese history or culture. By and large, GotS is an anime take on the cyberpunk genre, and since that started in the west anyway(Canada, specifically), I'm not too worried about the show being re-re-adapted using a white cast. A much greater travesty is the dub for the anime Steins;Gate, where they completely erased all traces of Japanese otaku culture from the show, which was half of what the show was actually about.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
34,595
1,213
118
Sleekit said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Legit question, why not cast Sigourney in an Expendables movie? That sounds bad ass.
actually i thought that too while writing it :p but given its a Stallone controlled "testosterone fueled" franchise i doubt it would turn out well in the end.
Eh, maybe so. Maybe Stallone is just too scared to ask a girl taller than him to join in the movie :D
 

Stryc9

New member
Nov 12, 2008
1,294
0
0
Liam Steel said:
Fortunately there's a new Ghost in the Shell anime to look forward to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUEktyhOSxg
That wasn't much to go on but I like what I saw, it kind of looks like more SAC might be on the way.

I see that we're all glossing over the more important issue here. There is less than a .01% chance of this movie being good no matter who is cast in any role. This movie shouldn't be happening period but since it is just remember this: There is still tons of other good to absolutely excellent Ghost in the Shell material out there and this movie as shit as it inevitably will be isn't going to affect the pre-existing material.

EDIT: I take that back, SAC Major has brown eyes.
 

NiPah

New member
May 8, 2009
1,084
0
0
The only good thing about this movie is how much money it's pouring into the pockets of Masamune Shirow.
This will go about as well as Edge of Tomorrow (which I hear is actually pretty good but failed horribly).
 

circularlogic88

Knower of Nothing
Oct 9, 2010
292
0
0
This is a ramble done on my smart phone, apologies for the incoherency:
Okay, I know I'm going to get flack for pointing this out...but the character she's playing is a brain living in a mechanical husk. She could literally be played by any ethnicity or gender for that matter and it would make sense for the rules of this universe.

In the original animated movie, she's very detached and calculating. She doesn't really see her body as a sacred vessel that represents all that she is and believes in. She sees her body as a tool to be used for her job. She doesn't really have a concept of modesty or shame for her form because she doesn't really care what she looks like so long as she can do her job.

I feel like this movie is going to be very Westernized much in the same way that Dragon Ball Evolution was. I get the feeling like this is going to be a bad sci-fi script repurposed and using only names and locations of the source material.

Now is whitewashing a character wrong? I don't think so necessarily, not with this character or this setting where she could literally look like anyone if she wanted to. Would it be more authentic to the source material if she was Asian? Again, maybe, maybe not. This movie is being made by Hollywood for Americans with American sensibilities. Dragon Ball E deviated heavily from the source material because some suit in a board meeting convinced other suits that no one was going to want to watch a proven best-selling story the world over, and instead, they had a better story in mind. One that tested really positive in all of the right demographics they were trying to hit.

Scarlett Johannsson got the role because she's off of the success of the Marvel movies. She's easily identifiable to the American audience this movie is being made for and most likely Dreamworks was nervous that their return on investment would be minimal if they couldn't get a highly recognizable actress to play the starring role.

TL;DR: Casting choice is a product of the Hollywood system. Whitewashing doesn't necessarily apply to the character of Kusuragi as she's a brain in a machine and can look however she wants. This movie will most likely pull a DBE and be completely unfaithful to the source material anyways so who cares if an Asian actress doesn't get her name dragged down with this production? Most would call me pessimistic, I prefer to call myself realistic.
 

Rad Party God

Party like it's 2010!
Feb 23, 2010
3,560
0
0
Trishbot said:
You know who I think would be awesome in the role, but Hollywood won't go with her for "reasons"?
Pacific Rim's Rinko Kikuchi.

(No! Don't! It makes TOO much sense!)
Yeah, just came here to say this exactly. We already have a kickass asian actress.
But nope, Hollywood sure likes to whitewash anything foreign they get their hands on.
 

P-89 Scorpion

New member
Sep 25, 2014
466
0
0
Trishbot said:
You know who I think would be awesome in the role, but Hollywood won't go with her for "reasons"?
Pacific Rim's Rinko Kikuchi.

(No! Don't! It makes TOO much sense!)

Except Scarlett Johansson is fine with nudity and Rinko Kikuchi isn't and the major does not have a nudity taboo.
 

MPerce

New member
May 29, 2011
434
0
0
I'm of two minds on this. On one hand, it's awesome that female-centric movies are getting the green light more and more. That is unquestionably a good thing.

But yeah, I do wish Hollywood felt financially comfortable with casting a non-white person in a non-white role. I understand why Johansson was cast, she's a box office behemoth, but it doesn't make the loss of a role tailor-made for an Asian actress any less annoying.

It's a complicated issue that probably won't matter much in this case, anyway. The odds of this not only getting off the ground but being any good are pretty slim, if other American live-action animes are any indication (except for you, Speed Racer. You'll be my guilty pleasure forever).
 

Aaron Sylvester

New member
Jul 1, 2012
786
0
0
Abomination said:
The selected Scarlett Johansson because she's hot as hell, fits the figure, puts bums on seats, and let's not get into how so many anime characters look "white" anyway.

This isn't a racist issue in the slightest and it isn't even a feminism issue. Motoko Kusanagi has always been a woman, this role would be filled by a woman in any scenario.

What kind of bullshit clickbait topic is this anyway?

RACISM!

FEMINISM!

COLLECT VIEWS!

PROFIT!
Agreed, lately this site has been getting overloaded with more and more clickbait opinion-pieces.
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

New member
Nov 19, 2009
3,672
0
0
Indeed, Hollywood (and America in general) is still thinking thirty years in the past. Despite the fact that Asia is increasingly becoming more important in terms of movie sales, they still don't seem to get this. This is why diversifying is something they're going to be forced to do in the future, which is why they should just get it over with now. Instead of casting someone white as chalk like Scarlet, they could have cast Kikuchi who became quite the star after Pacific Rim. And that's before we get into how the white male demographic is being usurped in America itself due to how racial mixing is occurring and diversifying the population. Might as well stop gimping your market potential.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

I never asked for this
Sep 8, 2011
6,652
0
0
I have no problem with the casting. We don't know to what extent the movie is going to follow the 1995 anime. But even if we did, I still don't have a problem. It's just an anime movie. It's not like it's about a historic figure and the race of the characters matters like if someone had cast Denzel Washington to play George Washington.

There's a double standard here. Most people on The Escapist (I remember this) claimed that they wouldn't have a problem with a black James Bond, despite him being an iconic character with a long history. The dude is Scottish. But you have a problem with this all of a sudden? With an anime character being played by a non-Asian? Really? Do you really?
 

Kaiser0120

New member
Mar 11, 2010
14
0
0
"But you guys! Motoko Kusanagi uses an android body! That means that she can be whatever ethnicity that she wants to be!"

This is total tripe.

This reasoning does nothing more than excuse the problem; it makes up a reason for Hollywood to continue casting white actors and actresses in roles where not only could a minority have just as easily have filled, but would have been more appropriate to the source material.

Completely ignoring the facts that:

1. Motoko Kusanagi's body was built in Japan as a standard model, intentionally to be as inconspicuous as possible.

2. The entire setting is located in Japan. With Japanese characters. With Japanese themes, philosophies, politics, etc.

So can we please stop excusing this bullshit? Can we just have the strong, female, Asian main character this story is supposed to feature and stop trying to make excuses to have yet another Caucasian actress instead?
 

V4Viewtiful

New member
Feb 12, 2014
721
0
0
Aggieknight said:
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?

I ask because Scarlett, besides being extremely hot, looks a heck of a lot like Motoko. Ergo the casting makes sense to me.

Hollywood does have a problem with whitewashing, for example - the recent Exodus and Noah movies, but I don't see this as a case.
The thing is excluding Aris, The Major was born Japanese but then became more and more Machine till however as time went on depending on the lore her nationa Identity became less of a defining characteristic.
The first movie put it more bluntly but till the end of the movie when she combined with the entity born of the internet and fused with it, she was searching for her own Identity or at the very most never saw her self defined by what she was.
As we've see she can swap bodies (before she still kept her original cyberbrain to do it but again - depending - can now move her consciousness between vacant bodies without a source) so having her white isn't to far-fetched, especially when you think about the lores migration history and globalization of Japan around the time the war happened, though she was cybernetically enhanced before that from what I understand.

Saying all this If it was possible I'd prefer a mostly Japanese cast set in Japan, themes and politics of the series is from that perspective.
 

Trishbot

New member
May 10, 2011
1,318
0
0
P-89 Scorpion said:
Trishbot said:
You know who I think would be awesome in the role, but Hollywood won't go with her for "reasons"?
Pacific Rim's Rinko Kikuchi.

(No! Don't! It makes TOO much sense!)

Except Scarlett Johansson is fine with nudity and Rinko Kikuchi isn't and the major does not have a nudity taboo.
And Jessica Alba has a no-nudity clause and yet was cast as Nancy in Sin City, and nobody is frothing at the mouth saying she ruined the film.

Besides, it's not like the Major spends the vast majority of her time giving the audience full frontal. I watched several seasons of Stand Alone Complex where she kept her clothes on 99% of the time.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
Adam Jensen said:
There's a double standard here. Most people on The Escapist (I remember this) claimed that they wouldn't have a problem with a black James Bond, despite him being an iconic character with a long history. The dude is Scottish. But you have a problem with this all of a sudden? With an anime character being played by a non-Asian? Really? Do you really?
i have a problem with a black James Bond :p

even more so if he's now canonically Scots...because virtually the only dark skinned Scots are Scots-Pakistani or Sikhs...

"the name's Bond...Jemsa Bond..."

probably best leave that discussion of the next time it comes up tbh...
 

rembrandtqeinstein

New member
Sep 4, 2009
2,173
0
0
99% of the jobs with the highest serious injury/death rates are done by men

in the US the life expectancy gap between men and women is around 5 years in favor of women

when until people claiming to care about "equality" address those concerns they don't deserve to be taken seriously
 

Kaiser0120

New member
Mar 11, 2010
14
0
0
rembrandtqeinstein said:
99% of the jobs with the highest serious injury/death rates are done by men

in the US the life expectancy gap between men and women is around 5 years in favor of women

when until people claiming to care about "equality" address those concerns they don't deserve to be taken seriously
Seriously dude? This has nothing to do with any of that. You want to talk about that, go make a post about it somewhere else on the forum; this discussion literally has 0% to do with that conversation.
Adam Jensen said:
I have no problem with the casting. We don't know to what extent the movie is going to follow the 1995 anime. But even if we did, I still don't have a problem. It's just an anime movie. It's not like it's about a historic figure and the race of the characters matters like if someone had cast Denzel Washington to play George Washington.

There's a double standard here. Most people on The Escapist (I remember this) claimed that they wouldn't have a problem with a black James Bond, despite him being an iconic character with a long history. The dude is Scottish. But you have a problem with this all of a sudden? With an anime character being played by a non-Asian? Really? Do you really?
Bond is not defined by his ethnicity.

He?s British.

He?s male.

He?s handsome and charming.

He?s also been interpreted by several different actors and, ultimately, it?s become more and more heavily implied that each Bond is a different person altogether. Reinterpretations of that character?s race are bound to happen. Commonly, as well, you?ll find a looot more black men in Britain than Caucasians in Japan. By at least ten times. A black Bond makes sense, to a certain extent. It's not a stretch and it only would only help to reinvent and explore the character in new ways.
 

RandV80

New member
Oct 1, 2009
1,507
0
0
Toilet said:
Sleekit said:
as a fan of Asian cinema...they do have their own industry y'know...plenty of (extremely famous and accomplished) Asian women cast there...

there's more to the world than the Hollywood zeitgeist...and i see no reason why Hollywood should not equally serve its own (primarily home) market demographics.

that said it would be nice if Ghost in the Shell was an international production...but US audiences don't generally go to see foreign language films afaik.

"asians" are 4.75% of the US population according to wikipedia ("whites" are 72.41%) people like to see representations they can equate with themselves.

there's not much potentially culturally affecting value to a film that fails at the box office...

the "draw" of specific headliners is an important factor both in terms of securing production and eventual economically viable success.

atm the fact Hollywood is prepared to make women the headline in blockbuster action movies and the audience is prepared to go along with it is a good thing.

in short Scarlet puts bums on seats...is trailblazing in that respect to a certain extent (given the types and size of film projects she is and is going to be involved in)...i see very little to condemn about that.

Rinko Kikuchi might be good...in a recent "visible sense"...but can she do that kind of work?..and how many people would actually go see a Rinko Kikuchi headlined move compared a Scarlet one ?

far less is the uncomfortable real world answer to that...

...and at the end of the day this a billion dollar business we're talking about not a school play.
This, it's a non issue and definitely not a feminist issue. It's a western American take on a Japanese property so it's not an issue if a white, extremely popular ScarJo is cast as the lead. If there is a big huge outcry from Japan or the nip community then we get to ponder if we're awful for "whitewashing".

All depends if it's an American adaption of another countries property which Ghost in the Shell is or if it's an American movie set in a place that is distinctly ethnic like Exodus, Last Airbender ect ect. I half bet that this American Adaption of Ghost in the Shell will be set in a big USA city.

Almost makes me think if people would be mad if there was an American Ace Attorney movie, have a think.
Well not quite. In this specific case they're making a big budget movie and need to get buts in seats, Scarlett Johannsson is a big draw so it makes sense. Also this is American $$$ adapting a Japanese property, so it's likely they'll just take the same concept and set it in New York instead of Tokyo or something, therefore the characters will be representative of the US and you can't really call it 'white washing'... except maybe this is set a decent amount in the future and ethnic diversity in the US increasing so it could be seen as that if the rest of the cast is white, but that's a different topic.

But, we're just looking at a box office draw leading role here, the film industry is much bigger than that and the problem is more of a top to bottom thing. I see this pretty well first hand living in a film industry city (Vancouver) with my girlfriend who's an Asian actor at the TV one liner level. With a large Asian population in Vancouver there's a lot of Asian actors, and it's certainly more of a challenge to be seen for regular roles and not just 'dim sum waitress' or something like. Which in her case those auditions tend to be a bit of a disaster as she's not Chinese and her attempt at Asian accents are pretty bad!

I'd say what people want here are to be able are for roles to be more colourblind so anyone can be seen regardless of race. An example of an inspiratonal actor for my gal is from the much internet maligned TV show Scorpion, is Jadyn Wong who plays the mechanical genius Happy. The show doesn't do a single thing about the fact that she's Chinese and she could easily be swapped out in the role for someone who was white, black, hispanic, etc etc.

Like I said, this specific example is okay because Scarjo is a lead attraction, but Hollywood needs to open up from top to bottom in the manner of my Happy example.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

I never asked for this
Sep 8, 2011
6,652
0
0
Kaiser0120 said:
Bond is not defined by his ethnicity.

He?s British.

He?s male.

He?s handsome and charming.

He?s also been interpreted by several different actors and, ultimately, it?s become more and more heavily implied that each Bond is a different person altogether. Reinterpretations of that character?s race are bound to happen. Commonly, as well, you?ll find both black and white men in Britain. A black Bond makes sense, to a certain extent.
I'm not arguing about Bond. I even have an idea of my own which black actor could play him perfectly. I'm just using him as an example of why ethnicity doesn't matter in this case.
 

T_ConX

New member
Mar 8, 2010
456
0
0
Excuse me while I recycle a comment I made for the original new story...

Oh crap! Better go burn down Tumblr before the Social Justice Wankers start bit-

fix-the-spade said:
Cans of whitewash still experiencing strong sales in Hollywood...
The Almighty Aardvark said:
Mokoto Kusanagi... played by Scarlett Johansson. Huh. Wonder how they're going to play off the fact that she's not remotely japanese.

Although if we had a movie centered around a japanese actress we'd all probably just explode from too much change.
kael013 said:
Suit 1: "OK, we have a film about a Japanese robot woman leading a group of Japanese government agents against cyberpunk crime in Japan. Who should we cast? That chick from Pacific Rim, uh... Rinko Kikuchi?"
Suit 2: "How about Scarlett Johansson?"
Suits 3-6: "Perfect!"
MirenBainesUSMC said:
No

For the simple reason that the Major isn't a blond, blue eyed white woman and never was.
Psst... Scarlett is actually a brunette, and I hate your guts for making me Google 'scarlett johansson natural hair color'. Still, it's not as bad as when I started typing this out.

MirenBainesUSMC said:
So you mean to tell me that Hollywood still can't find a decent up and comming asian actor to play what is basically an asian woman's role?

What next --- is Mulan going to be a live action movie with a tall, green eyed red headed woman with Celtic painting on her face?

Roles should fit the creation, this is why a lot of these movies die quickly. They need to open themselves up to a more diverse pool of actors than the same 10 actors.
RolandOfGilead said:
They couldn't find one Japanese-descent actress? Really?
Aw fuck I'm too late.

roseofbattle said:
Ghost in the Shell Casting Shows We Need More Than White Feminism

Ethnic minorities are prevented from playing white characters
Two words: Black Annie.

Let's just ignore the fact that there's a movie in theatres RIGHT NOW that stars a young black actress play a character that is traditionally portrayed as a ginger.

Also, since we're talking about Japan, let's just ignore the fact that Akira Kurosawa directed not one, not two, but three different movies based on the work of William Shakespeare. Also, forget about the two Miyazaki movies that are based off of English novels.

Also, this anime based off of Anne of Green Gables. Seems it's open season on us gingers.

But, I mean, come on, it's not like the Japanese would ever make an TV adaptation of a American comic book francise and cast a Japanese actor as the traditionally white lead right?


If you're still salty about ScarJo playing the Major, then I suggest you go hang out with the dudes who are still angry over Idris Elba playing a Norse God.
 

Karadalis

New member
Apr 26, 2011
1,065
0
0
Ethnic minorities are prevented from playing white characters,
Yeah... marvels calling... they aparantly dont have a problem with that.. Nick Fury? Human torch?

That said.. yes it is incredibly stupid to ignore the source material... anime most often is HEAVILY influenced by japanese worldview. To "americanize" such an anime for western audiences will only destroy what made the anime/manga great and apealing to people in the first place. Not only that but the whole story most likely will make absofuckinglutely no sense to anyone anymore. See the disaster that the now binned Akira project became.

And casting the wrong ethnecity for the wrong roles is allways a big issue.. and it doesnt matter what skin color or what gender. As soon as you disrespect the source material you might throw the entire thing into the trashcan.
 

Darth_Payn

New member
Aug 5, 2009
2,868
0
0
shadowmagus said:
I'm not looking forward to the movie, mostly because I don't think Hollywood can do the anime any true justice. What is worse though is that when they cast ScarJo, I knew these kind of opinion pieces were on the horizon. Not that I necessarily agree or disagree with them but because they always sound so whiny, "oppressed", and read like they belong on a tumblr blog, but with an editorial staff.
And thus you have answered my question, "WTF did I just read?!" In all this bitching about the problem, I didn't find anything that sounded like a workable solution.
 

hentropy

New member
Feb 25, 2012
737
0
0
Am I the only one who would like to see more ethnic/Asian actors in movies for no other reason than it's more interesting than seeing the same three women in every female leading role? That would get tiring no matter what race the actresses were.

Akira and GitS were bound to be awful live-action adaptations from the start, in any case. I wouldn't want any promising Asian actors attached to them, as they're bound to be busts.

I simply cannot stand all the extraneous bullshit people want to force into these discussions. I like J-Law and ScarJo, they're talented, but I don't want to fucking see them in everything. If a movie is set in Japan, it should probably have Japanese actors. I don't know why it should be more complicated than that.
 

Dango

New member
Feb 11, 2010
21,066
0
0
roseofbattle said:
There are Asian actors who are repeatedly denied roles.
Now that's a poor choice of words right there. No one is being "denied" here, and saying so is well... incorrect.


The fact of the matter is Scarlett Johansson is a really popular action star right now, and if there was an Asian star that was at her levels of popularity they would be starring in this movie. That's ignoring the fact though that Johansson actually quite looks the part, probably more so than any Asian actress I can think of, and it's not hard to imagine her in the role.

Lastly, most of the backlash is going to be coming from the western world anyway, as I can guarantee you Japan is gonna eat this movie up, as they tend to do with all big name western action movies.
 

Ruisu

Enjoy the Silence
Jul 11, 2013
190
0
0
Sleekit said:
that said it would be nice if Ghost in the Shell was an international production...but US audiences don't generally go to see foreign language films afaik.
Not to get too "off topic" from your full comment, but this is one of the main reasons I hope international box office becomes more relevant than 'home' box office as time goes on. Maybe this can evolve into more support for movies that are interesting to other audiences other than US, or even produced outside of hollywood. (and I say that as someone who lives in brazil.)
 

Rellik San

New member
Feb 3, 2011
609
0
0
Here's a question and it's one no one has answered:

Having already basically starred in a Live Action Anime (Pacific Rim) and invariably is booked for it's sequel; Being an Asian action star: Maybe Rinko Kikuchi was offered the role, but turned it down so she wouldn't be type cast in the future.

Also beyond this casting choice, do we really know anything about this movie yet?

Or are we going to all sit here and pretend that playing Racial Chess by picking and choosing which roles should be given to which actors is any more or less racist than this casting choice? Because so far I've not seen any evidence to suggest Kikuchi has even ever wanted this role and saying she should do it because she's Japanese and good at stunts is just really fucking racist to be blunt.
 

Aaron Sylvester

New member
Jul 1, 2012
786
0
0
Dango said:
Lastly, most of the backlash is going to be coming from the western world* anyway
*US
As with the backlash to anything with the words "female", "sexism", "misogyny", "racist", "black", "white" in the news/article/editorial :p
 

Sleepy Sol

New member
Feb 15, 2011
1,831
0
0
Darth_Payn said:
shadowmagus said:
I'm not looking forward to the movie, mostly because I don't think Hollywood can do the anime any true justice. What is worse though is that when they cast ScarJo, I knew these kind of opinion pieces were on the horizon. Not that I necessarily agree or disagree with them but because they always sound so whiny, "oppressed", and read like they belong on a tumblr blog, but with an editorial staff.
And thus you have answered my question, "WTF did I just read?!" In all this bitching about the problem, I didn't find anything that sounded like a workable solution.
That's my main problem with this article. What can we really do about this issue (if we do perceive it to be an issue) ourselves?

Though, honestly, I doubt many Japanese people actually feel 'oppressed' or somesuch by this casting.

It is rather disappointing that they didn't want to make the effort to find a Japanese actress, but it's not exactly particularly upsetting.

Also, that last paragraph is really weird. A bunch of subordinate clauses in a row - because, because, because. But that's just an error I noticed that isn't particularly important to the content of the article. Also a couple spelling errors.
 
Sep 24, 2008
2,461
0
0
Hey, Rush! RUSH! LOOK! Hollywood is at it again! This time it's not Idris taking a role, but Scarlett!

Rush? It's kind of quiet over there, bud. What's up?

Sleekit said:
can you name a Hollywood Asian actress you think would draw the same number of people (thus justifying the blockbuster budget this film will have) to the theaters by headlining such a film ?

i mean it took me a while even come up with Rinko Kikuchi...and she's never headlined such a movie and most people would be like "who ?".

seriously whatta ya got ? Lucy Liu ?

some things...are..."easy to say"...and not much else.
Grace Park [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Park_(actress)] is smoking to some. People like Lindsay Price [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Price]. There's acceptable Asian Facsimile Kristin Kreuk [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Kreuk]. My personal Man-boner would pierce whatever celestial bodies that were actually in the Heavens if it was Michelle Yeoh [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Yeoh]. That woman does something to me.

Anyway, is it more of a point that there aren't any big name Asian Actresses that has the chops to bring people in, or no one wants to be the first to try? Not wanting to cast Denzel in any more oversea films as the headliner because he doesn't sell there is one thing [http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/12/sony-email-hack-denzel-washington-black-leads-international-audience-racist/]. Yeah, I get that people are really choosy with their male leads.

But people are stupid and are into base things. One of the most common fetishes in the world of Porn is Asian. Asian women are the second most 'acceptable female race [https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=why+do+guys+love+asian+women]' in the world. If Hollywood wanted to, yeah, I think they'd have no problem if they got an asian woman hot enough and who kicked ass.

So, no, I don't think an American Movie company would fail with an Asian female lead if they marketed it right.
 

Rect Pola

New member
May 19, 2009
349
0
0
When issues like this come up, it's rarely a "bad thing, done by bad people" issue. It's more of a "Not cool in a broad perspective" issue. Sure there's a ton of numbers on the trends, and yeah it sucks, but for all we know they approached casting her exclusively because she can make the role work (the butts-in-seats factor don't hurt either). BUT since she's white in a historically not-white role it's another tic of the "whiteness of hollywood" counter.

Yeah, the face of the issue sucks, especially in an property that made the point of being set in japan. I'd love to see more broad-minded casting, thinking long and hard if a character *has* to be a certain race. Fortunately, the more they mine american comics the sooner we'll know if things are going in that direction. America's comic history on the whole isn't exactly a racial smorgasbord.
 

Rellik San

New member
Feb 3, 2011
609
0
0
Here's another question:

Other than character names, what is there about GitS and it's setting that is actually uniquely Japanese?

Because I'm seeing a lot of people bark about how GitS is such a Japanese show and it could only Japanese and I'm thinking to myself: "Have you people ever read William Gibson or Phillip K. Dick?"
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
Kaiser0120 said:
Commonly, as well, you?ll find both black and white men in Britain. A black Bond makes sense, to a certain extent.
i'd never saw a black person in the flesh until i was 18.

and when i did they were two American basketball players bought in for the local team who bought up the local video shop as a business concern on the side...and btw everyone thought they were cool as fuck...which kinda actually freaked them out...

tell me how common "black" people are in the UK again ?...

oh ye. outside the South of England and Caribbean immigrants ("the windrush generation") their descendants and a few followers on...not very at all actually.

sry but perhaps the biggest joke about Demoman is black Scots basically don't exist...

plenty of ("former empire") "brown" tho.

and ofc plenty on the telly because guess where all that is based...the South of England.

there are probably more "black" people on Eastenders than in the entirety of the "shire" in which i live.

here, as in America, they are actually hugely over represented in the media compared with their actual demographic percentages.

the 2011 census place percentages of black people in the UK at 3.01% ("asians" are 6.92%...and that includes "asians" AND "asians" ;P)

just to throw that into perspective that means if you collected a perfectly balanced sample of 100 people only 3 of them would be black...

in the US the demographic percentage of black people is apparently 12.2% according to wikipedia.

ObsidianJones said:
Hey, Rush! RUSH! LOOK! Hollywood is at it again! This time it's not Idris taking a role, but Scarlett!

Rush? It's kind of quiet over there, bud. What's up?

Sleekit said:
Grace Park [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Park_(actress)] is smoking to some. People like Lindsay Price [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsay_Price]. There's acceptable Asian Facsimile Kristin Kreuk [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Kreuk]. My personal Man-boner would pierce whatever celestial bodies that were actually in the Heavens if it was Michelle Yeoh [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Yeoh]. That woman does something to me.

Anyway, is it more of a point that there aren't any big name Asian Actresses that has the chops to bring people in, or no one wants to be the first to try? Not wanting to cast Denzel in any more oversea films as the headliner because he doesn't sell there is one thing [http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/12/sony-email-hack-denzel-washington-black-leads-international-audience-racist/]. Yeah, I get that people are really choosy with their male leads.

But people are stupid and are into base things. One of the most common fetishes in the world of Porn is Asian. Asian women are the second most 'acceptable female race [https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=why+do+guys+love+asian+women]' in the world. If Hollywood wanted to, yeah, I think they'd have no problem if they got an asian woman hot enough and who kicked ass.

So, no, I don't think an American Movie company would fail with an Asian female lead if they marketed it right.
ok Grace Park ive never heard of and she doesn't even look Asian.

Lindsay Price, again never heard of...

Kristin Kreuk...i've actually met hehe (thanks to Irvine Welsh) but again doesn't look Asian...

i recognise some people might frown at the "doesn't look Asian" thing but if they don't what's the point really ?

as for Michelle...while i love her to bits she's old enough to be my mom (and i'm probably old enough to be your dad :p) and she is basically more than semi retired at this point (and will probably completely retire after CTHD II which is in production...if it gets made).
 

SNCommand

New member
Aug 29, 2011
283
0
0
It's a hollywood movie though, of course they're going to hire a big name hollywood actor, that means most likely white, and thanks to the Marvel movies no one is more sought after than Scarlett Johansson, there's nothing wrong with that choice

The movie is going to be an absolute mess though, you got the director of Snow White and the Huntsman working with Dreamworks of to make a live action rendition of Ghost in the Shell, everything about that team up smells disaster, this is going to be one movie I'm going to keep tabs on just for the massive trainwreck that's incoming

They're likely going to cut back on some of the more "raunchy" parts of the work they're adapting as well, don't expect anything like the scene where Major Kusanagi wears her skintight flesh colored suite and tries to pull off the lid on a tank, muscles bulging and all, don't expect any subtlety as well, the preceding parts of the fight with the tank would be completely different, hollywood would demand dubstep action music in the background instead of the choir, and more explosions and gun fire instead of using quiet moments to create tension and juxtaposition

This is going to be bad, Shyamalan's Last Airbender bad, I don't think we want one of Hollywoods few female asian actors to be dragged down by this disaster, instead people should simply enjoy the original adaptation more, fans of Avatar: The Last Airbender learned that long ago
 

Baresark

New member
Dec 19, 2010
3,908
0
0
I see the both the validity and ridiculous nature of this article.

You should give lesser known actors who fit the ethnic identity of a character a chance. ScarJo isn't the best actress (not bad mind you, not bad at all, just not really all that great IMO). It just would make more sense to pick someone who at least is likely to have a Japanese name in real life (ie. Someone who is of Japanese decent or is Japanese).

Now that I got that out of the way:

Hollywood, for all it's progressive pushing, does not give a shit about the above. From a logical standpoint, what I said makes sense. But no-name actors do not draw to a movie. Like it or not, they are not making a movie for a niche audience. Hollywood will ALWAYS cast based on looks and general attraction of the audience. It's how they make money. Theatre is identical. They will cast a worse actor/actress in a role that looks right, than cast the better actor/actress. This is universal truth in anything that is extremely public facing.

Also, movies are made with a sense of rhetoric. That is, they are made for the audiences they are meant to appeal to in mind. If this movie was going to be a big deal in someplace like Japan, they might change their tune. But I don't imagine this is meant for anything of the sort. I think this is meant for American, European and maybe Australian audiences, which are predominantly white last I checked, so it's not such a big stretch to think that they will cast a white person for the role.

All of this said: I would rather see a Japanese actress in this role. Realistically, it should be a cast of mostly Japanese thespians. Not that I think the characters are, artistically, distinctly Japanese in the Manga or any of the accompanying Anime, it just makes sense to me for it be that way. But this seems to be a movie aimed at mostly American audiences, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that it's not.

Edit:

This is Hollywood to a T.

 

hentropy

New member
Feb 25, 2012
737
0
0
Rellik San said:
Having already basically starred in a Live Action Anime (Pacific Rim) and invariably is booked for it's sequel; Being an Asian action star: Maybe Rinko Kikuchi was offered the role, but turned it down so she wouldn't be type cast in the future.

Also beyond this casting choice, do we really know anything about this movie yet?
It's possible that Kikuchi was offered the role and turned it down. It's also possible that they didn't audition a single Asian actress. It's pure speculation and pointless to bring up, unless there's evidence one way or another.

What we know about the film beyond ScarJo is that it's being directed by Rupert Sanders, his only prior directing credit being Snow White and the Huntsman... I'll let you judge for yourself on that one. It's being produced by Avi Arad and Steven Paul... Arad's biggest recent production is The Amazing Spider-Man series and various other... movies. Paul has only one other movie, a Tekken adaptation, in the works.

Rellik San said:
Here's another question:

Other than character names, what is there about GitS and it's setting that is actually uniquely Japanese?
It's set in Japan and all the main characters are Japanese special law enforcement agents. Most of the main cast is Japanese, as in they have Japanese personas.

Personally I don't like the idea that something can only be "uniquely Japanese" if it's set in old Kyoto with everyone wearing kimono and/or being samurai. GitS does have some focus outside of Japan, but it is still set there with most of the characters being Japanese. The story details and setting would have to be reworked to a significant degree in order to localize it.

It might be possible for it to be a good movie even with ScarJo and localization to NYC or whatever, but given the film's current leadership, the casting decision seems to have more to do with cynicism and money-grubbing than it does with Johansson really be the best fit for the part.

I don't personally think "they're only doing it for the money" gives someone a pass for doing something wrong. In fact, it makes it worse.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
hentropy said:
I don't personally think "they're only doing it for the money" gives someone a pass for doing something wrong. In fact, it makes it worse.
as i said before it's a business...a multi billion dollar business...not a school play.

ofc they're going to make choices "for the money".
 

hentropy

New member
Feb 25, 2012
737
0
0
Sleekit said:
hentropy said:
I don't personally think "they're only doing it for the money" gives someone a pass for doing something wrong. In fact, it makes it worse.
as i said before it's a business...not a school play.
And? Does simply being a business mean that someone is immune from criticism when they do something stupid for greedy reasons? What you're saying is a non-sequitur. The people at Stormfront are private citizens and are allowed to express their views, and I'm also allowed to say that they are wrong.

Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to be a business who isn't constantly doing crappy things. It's also possible to be a business and negatively affect society for purely greedy reasons.

I don't think it's quite that bad in this case. Rupert Sanders being the director offends me more than Johansson being the Major. But take the case of the movie "21", a movie based on true events, where literally all of the people involved in real life were Asian and were whitewashed into white people for the movie with the two Asian characters being reduced to comic relief sidekicks. It was something done for purely monetary reasons, and it was wrong. Just like when companies pump carcinogens into the air because it saves them a buck or when GM neglects to fix an ignition problem because it might cost money. It's wrong, and "a business exists to make money" doesn't excuse the wrongness.
 

The Choke

New member
Nov 5, 2014
52
0
0
crimson5pheonix said:
Sleekit said:
crimson5pheonix said:
Legit question, why not cast Sigourney in an Expendables movie? That sounds bad ass.
actually i thought that too while writing it :p but given its a Stallone controlled "testosterone fueled" franchise i doubt it would turn out well in the end.
Eh, maybe so. Maybe Stallone is just too scared to ask a girl taller than him to join in the movie :D
Ronda Rousey. She could roundhouse me any day. And oddly enough, she's in Expendables 3. She started as an actual fighter and not an actress, so I don't know if she counts...

On topic: I definitely do not like Ms. Johansson, and that's just on a personal level. I also have some mixed feelings about properties that are very nostalgic and meaningful to me getting the Hollywood treatment. I almost think the only way this could work would be a complete departure from the original material. But if you're doing that, why bother making a GitS movie in the first place?

Oh, what the hell. At least it's not Kristen Stewart.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
hentropy said:

how do type so fast that you can do 3 paragraphs in the space of time it takes me to edit in ".a multi billion dollar business" and "ofc they're going to make choices "for the money"" :eek:

i'm impressed at that if nothing else.

making as much as possible (back) from a ("blockbuster" sci-fi) action film is not greed.

if you want worthy look up Sundance exhibitors not Hollywood "blockbusters".

go to "arthouse" cinemas and film festivals.

its extremely naive to expect "worthiness" from a big budget Hollywood film.

as i inferred earlier in the thread just a couple "big" films not doubling their budgets in returns can end a major studio.

they will NEVER make "worthy" "blockbusters" and not care about returns.

NEVER.

and it's not "greed" its pure and simple "we'd like jobs next year as well tyvm if that's all right with you" + a fair whack of "give the people what they want".
 

Kaiser0120

New member
Mar 11, 2010
14
0
0
Sleekit said:
Kaiser0120 said:
Commonly, as well, you?ll find both black and white men in Britain. A black Bond makes sense, to a certain extent.
i'd never saw a black person in the flesh until i was 18.

and when i did they were two American basketball players bought in for the local team who bought up the local video shop as a business concern on the side...and btw everyone thought they were cool as fuck...which kinda actually freaked them out...

tell me how common "black" people are in the UK again ?...

oh ye. outside the South of England and Caribbean immigrants ("the windrush generation") their descendants and a few followers on...not very at all actually.

sry but perhaps the biggest joke about Demoman is black Scots basically don't exist...

plenty of ("former empire") "brown" tho.

and ofc plenty on the telly because guess where all that is based...the South of England.

there are probably more "black" people on Eastenders than in the entirety of the "shire" in which i live.

here, as in America, they are actually hugely over represented in the media compared with their actual demographic percentages.

the 2011 census place percentages of black people in the UK at 3.01% ("asians" are 6.92%...and that includes "asians" AND "asians" ;P)

just to throw that into perspective that means if you collected a perfectly balanced sample of 100 people only 3 of them would be black...

in the US the demographic percentage of black people is apparently 12.2% according to wikipedia.
Fair enough, I altered my post to reflect that. But still, nearly 2 million black folk in the UK. I still think a Black Bond isn't out of the question.
 

Kennetic

New member
Jan 18, 2011
374
0
0
Toilet said:
Almost makes me think if people would be mad if there was an American Ace Attorney movie, have a think.
You have no idea how bad I want an America Ace Attorney movie. Hell, a tv show or mini-series would be pretty awesome.
 

VonBrewskie

New member
Apr 9, 2009
480
0
0
hear, hear! i'm tired of movies clearly meant for non-white characters getting whitewashed. blackface and yellowface is shunned, but hiring white actors to play non-white characters seems only one or two steps removed from that old, racist practice.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
Adam Jensen said:
I have no problem with the casting. We don't know to what extent the movie is going to follow the 1995 anime. But even if we did, I still don't have a problem. It's just an anime movie. It's not like it's about a historic figure and the race of the characters matters like if someone had cast Denzel Washington to play George Washington.

There's a double standard here. Most people on The Escapist (I remember this) claimed that they wouldn't have a problem with a black James Bond, despite him being an iconic character with a long history. The dude is Scottish. But you have a problem with this all of a sudden? With an anime character being played by a non-Asian? Really? Do you really?
Stop using that common sense thing, heathen, it's not compliant with the SJW hivemind attitude of these forums. Oh and for god's sake get something for that throat, you sound like some majorly bad bourbon killed a smoking iguana in there...

Also, this issue cannot be any more obviously artificially engineered bullshit and cannot possibly be taken seriously by anyone other than those who got paid to care about it. Honestly. This is about as far as that old topic *John-Wayne-played-Genghis-Khan* as it can get
 

Dizchu

...brutal
Sep 23, 2014
1,277
0
0
I'm pretty sure they cast Scarlett Johansson because she's a "big name" right now and it'll encourage non-anime fans to watch this. I sincerely doubt that there was a deliberate attempt to undermine Asian actresses. Would Johansson be good as the character of Motoko Kusanagi? I don't know. Maybe? Maybe not? Maybe she's just born for the role? I don't think any of us can say for certain until the film comes out.

But I'm gonna be realistic here. Statistically there is gonna be an Asian actress that is more suited for the role than she is. I probably would prefer an Asian actress play Motoko Kusanagi... no, scratch that... I'd personally prefer it if the whole production was done in Japan and all the actors were Japanese... speaking in Japanese. Actually sod all of this I'm grabbing my DVD of the original Ghost in the Shell.

This film will probably suck. It might not though. But what will make it a good film or not will not depend on the ethnicity of its actors (though it'll feel less faithful to the original). That seems to be the point of contention, not whether or not the film will be any good but how well it'll hold up to the original film.

Personally I don't think we should make a big deal out of it for that very reason. Catwoman starring the mixed-race Halle Berry was a trainwreck despite Berry being a well-liked actress with an Academy Award. Selina Kyle has traditionally been depicted as white. How much better would the film have been if they had a white actress?

Guys put down your pitchforks and angry placards, we have bigger fish to fry.
 

Jake Martinez

New member
Apr 2, 2010
590
0
0
To me, the real crime here is that a terrible actress is being cast in another big budget sci-fi movie instead of someone (anyone!) who can actually act.

Issues of "representation" always sound like something interesting to get upset about over until you start asking yourself practical questions:

"What ratios of representation should we have in films?"
"How should we decide or deduce what these ratios are?"
"Who should be the people to be in charge of deciding this?"
"How do you enforce some system like this?"
"Does this change over time? How do we change this?"
"What happens if you just really want to make a character that is of a race/gender that is already over represented?"

As you can see, once you get past the pretend outrage, there are a lot of practical problems with any sort of suggestion that we need "more representation" of any sort in media, starting of course, with what this even looks like and ending with how do you force people to cast/write characters in the "correct" ratios (and how is this decided? empirical research? star chamber illuminati? popular vote?)

Look, if someone wants to put forward the idea that the type of popular feminism practiced by middle class, college educated, white women is largely ineffectual and panders to the bourgeois, then I'm going to be forced to agree with them. After all, there's a mountain of observable evidence to support this conclusion. However, the idea that we can implement some sort of diversity quota system in media seems outlandish along the lines of Kafka's "The Trial" - that is, more like intending to implement a perpetual kangaroo court designed simply to be perpetually "outraged" over perceived slights based on a self totalizing belief system.
 

deth2munkies

New member
Jan 28, 2009
1,066
0
0
Because anime girls overwhelmingly look like white women by design.

Sorry, but somebody had to say it.
 

Metalrocks

New member
Jan 15, 2009
2,406
0
0
P-89 Scorpion said:
Trishbot said:
You know who I think would be awesome in the role, but Hollywood won't go with her for "reasons"?
Pacific Rim's Rinko Kikuchi.

(No! Don't! It makes TOO much sense!)

Except Scarlett Johansson is fine with nudity and Rinko Kikuchi isn't and the major does not have a nudity taboo.
actually rinko was nude in the movie babel. she played a deaf character and tried everything to get laid but because of her problem, she got rejected a lot. was a good drama too.

otherwise, yes, already in PR she looked like motoko and i think she would be a suitable role for it.
 

SNCommand

New member
Aug 29, 2011
283
0
0
Metalrocks said:
actually she was nude in the movie babel. she played a deaf character and tried everything to get laid but because of her problem, she got rejected a lot. was a good drama too.

otherwise, yes, already in PR she looked like motoko and i think she would be a suitable role for it.
Besides, the nudity will be very downplayed if there at all, all hints seem to conclude that the movie will be PG-13 to rake in the dollar, I'll be shocked if they seek to capture Shirow Masamune's "preferences"
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
On one hand, it just seems like another stupid casting choice based solely on the popularity of the actress and like most Hollywood anime adaption will probably end up shit (though 'All You Need Is Kill' was surprisingly good, if completely unrecognizable from the original outside of premise alone). On the other hand, it's hilarious to see how many people will jump to the defense of a traditionally white character being cast as a different race or the source material itself being race changed yet instantly cry racism on the inverse. So with that I guess I can say I honestly do not care.
 

SNCommand

New member
Aug 29, 2011
283
0
0
DizzyChuggernaut said:
Personally I don't think we should make a big deal out of it for that very reason. Catwoman starring the mixed-race Halle Berry was a trainwreck despite Berry being a well-liked actress with an Academy Award. Selina Kyle has traditionally been depicted as white. How much better would the film have been if they had a white actress?
It also torpedoed her career, ending the high profile roles she had been receiving since winning her academy award, seems like only recently that she's been making a return

This whole project screams trainwreck, I don't think we want to smudge the reputation of say Rinko Kikuchi with it
 

Metalrocks

New member
Jan 15, 2009
2,406
0
0
SNCommand said:
Metalrocks said:
actually she was nude in the movie babel. she played a deaf character and tried everything to get laid but because of her problem, she got rejected a lot. was a good drama too.

otherwise, yes, already in PR she looked like motoko and i think she would be a suitable role for it.
Besides, the nudity will be very downplayed if there at all, all hints seem to conclude that the movie will be PG-13 to rake in the dollar, I'll be shocked if they seek to capture Shirow Masamune's "preferences"
just wanted to clarify the nudity part of the actress. thats all.
but lets hope it will not be a PG13 movie. just alone the political and diplomatic conversations is what made these movies so mature and really good. i highly doubt a young person will understand that.
and besides, it was only in part 1 were she was naked wile in part 2 she wasnt. well, she wasnt really around in her well known body.
if it would be a bad thing if she would be naked, that rally depends how accurate they capture the original. there at least it was kept in a mature way. so as in babel. she was completely naked but it was treated in a mature way that didnt really sexulize the matter.
 

ecoho

New member
Jun 16, 2010
2,093
0
0
SJ was chosen for the same reason Idris Elba was chosen for Heimdall in thor. Shes a good actor and will most likely do the part justice, in fact other then the young woman from pacific rim I cant think of a better actress to play the Major
period and though good Rinko Kikuchi does not have the star power to sell seats. so yeah SJ is the best actress for this role. Its also good to point out that none of the characters in Ghost in the shell look traditionally Asian.
 

Dizchu

...brutal
Sep 23, 2014
1,277
0
0
SNCommand said:
It also torpedoed her career, ending the high profile roles she had been receiving since winning her academy award, seems like only recently that she's been making a return

This whole project screams trainwreck, I don't think we want to smudge the reputation of say Rinko Kikuchi with it
True. What I'm getting at is that it takes more than a single actor/actress to determine whether or not a film will be any good. Many people find Keanu Reeves to be a mediocre actor yet they'll still applaud The Matrix (the original one at least).

The fact that people attribute so much of the success or failure of a film to its lead actors/actresses really bothers me.
 

Kurt Cristal

New member
Mar 31, 2010
438
0
0
valium said:
wasted opportunity, sure. potential subpar anime adaptation hollywood butchering, sure.

sad that they picked a good looking, sufficiently good acting, proven can do action movies, crowd drawing, actress to play the lead role?

no, I am not.

stop going far out of your way to be offended, it is becoming really really really

really

really

reallyreallyreallyreally

really tiring.

stop it
This. Wow, I want to thank the OP for personally rehashing everything that was already covered in the original thread about the casting decision and adding absolutely zero things to this discussion that hasn't already been discussed.
 

CrystalShadow

don't upset the insane catgirl
Apr 11, 2009
3,829
0
0
Scars Unseen said:
Soviet Heavy said:
A much greater travesty is the dub for the anime Steins;Gate, where they completely erased all traces of Japanese otaku culture from the show, which was half of what the show was actually about.
I don't... Oh wait, I've never seen the dub of steins;gate - the tv channel that was showing it here was showing a subbed version, not dubbed.
Sounds messed up. Especially considering some of the main plot points...

OT: eh. You know what? I'm beyond caring at this point. It's annoying this keeps happening on some level, but at the same time GiTS while set in japan isn't really about much of anything that is all that specific to Japan.
you could set it anywhere and it wouldn't change most of the stories that much. (Well, except maybe some of the xenophobic sublots about immigrants - although... That isn't an idea exclusive to Japan)
 

Tono Makt

New member
Mar 24, 2012
537
0
0
A) Hollywood isn't here to be a social force. It's here to make money. Casting a white woman in a movie that will be primarily aimed at Americans will make more money than a casting a more "appropriate" person in the role. ie: Oriental. While MOIVES and CINEMA can be powerful social forces... those are separate from Hollywood. Hollywood = $$$$$$$$$. That's why we get so much stuff aimed at teenage kids who literally don't know a good movie when they're presented with one. Most of us didn't know good movies from bad movies until we saw dozens of bad movies, saw a few good movies and learned how to tell good from bad.

Think of Hollywood as Matthew McConaughey from Dazed and Confused. Every year there's a new crop of kids who haven't seen a terrible Michael Bay movie yet, but it looks awesome in the trailer so they line up to go see it. Boys, mostly; the big money-making movies are always aimed at boys. (white boys, to be more precise) Boys don't care that it's got sexist jokes in it. Boys don't care that it's got racist jokes in it. They don't even understand what racism and sexism are, for the most part. It's loud, it's crude, it doesn't require any sort of deep thought, just go with it and enjoy it. Maybe in 10 years they'll look back on the movie and say "How... did I ever think that it was actually funny to see a transformer with giant testicles?" or "Those twins ... ya know, I've seen some actual racist shit, and those twins... I dunno man, if they aren't outright racist they're somewhere on that family tree.".

But that same year, there's another crop of kids who haven't seen a terrible (insert new director who makes terrible movies aimed at kids, mostly) move yet, but the trailer looks awesome. And David Wooderson is sitting back there going "Teenagers. Every year I keep making billions of dollars, and they just stay the same age."

That's Hollywood. Don't expect Hollywood to care about social causes at all; the best you can hope for is that a cause you believe in will catch the attention of a Hollywood studio looking to win an Oscar. Beyond that, don't expect a thing.

Now if you want MOVIES to help with social causes... you're going to have to out there and make your own movie. Or find someone who's making a movie you believe in and help them make that movie.

B) The segue into the sexism/feminism/gender demographics of Hollywood is... a bit of a red herring in this article. I will wholeheartedly agree that it's an important issue to discuss, but including it into this article is just going to give people who want to scream about Feminism/Feminists/Misogynists/Sexists a reason to scream about those topics, and ignore what I gather is supposed to be the main thrust of the article - that there is a problem with casting a white woman in what has been an Asian woman's role up to now.

Also, the discussion about women in Hollywood's backroom/boardroom? That's going to have to be a far larger discussion about women in backroom/boardrooms in general, not just Hollywood. Hollywood isn't different enough from Wall Street or K Street or Silicon Valley to warrant its own separate topic.


c) Rinko Kikuchi

Other than Pacific Rim, what has she been in to show she can act? She's cute, she's Japanese, she's able to deal with choreographed fight scenes impressively, but... okay? I liked her in Pacific Rim, but I wasn't impressed with her. Or any of the actors, really, beyond Idris Elba. (I liked most of them, but liked is not the same as being impressed.) A big meh for me on her for the Major.
 

Poetic Nova

Pulvis Et Umbra Sumus
Jan 24, 2012
1,974
0
0
I'm personally more concerned that the movie will end up sucking rather than who plays Major Kusanagi.
 

Tono Makt

New member
Mar 24, 2012
537
0
0
deth2munkies said:
Because anime girls overwhelmingly look like white women by design.

Sorry, but somebody had to say it.
Where the white women with blue hair at?

(seriously, how come girls rarely dye their hair a bright shade of blue? pinks, reds, purplishes, yellows, all over the place. but a nice Sailor Mercury shade of blue? argh!)
 

NeutralDrow

New member
Mar 23, 2009
9,097
0
0
Mild quibble: live-action adaptations of anime in Japan have a non-perfect, but still much better track record than Western attempts. I can personally speak to the quality of the live action Great Teacher Onizuka.

Otherwise, spot on. I'd like to think the increase in female-lead heroic movies recently is baby steps in at least a right direction, and Johansson is at least a good actress...then I remember reading that there's actually fewer women cast overall in movies in the past decade, so it's really more like baby twitching in a random direction, and throwing the concurrent racial casting issues into sharp relief. It doesn't even help that I don't like movies.
 

Ugicywapih

New member
May 15, 2014
179
0
0
I really fail to see what the big deal is with the lead role casting.
Yeah, the original Motoko Kusanagi is Japanese and it is perhaps regrettable, that audiences tend to associate more with characters of their own ethnicity (or at least conventional moviemaking "wisdom" seems to indicate so), but as it's been pointed out, she's a cyborg with a robotic body, so her external features are, to a degree superficial. The point, that her body type was mass-produced (and Japanese) was important in the original work, but on one hand the body is highly replaceable in this case, and besides, I wouldn't be too surprised if they just whitewash the entire setting, taking it from Tokyo to New York or San Francisco or whatever.
And really, it doesn't really bother me too much, since, at least to my limited understanding, GitS doesn't really rely too much on inherently Japanese cultural sensibilities, making whitewashing it fairly benign as far as the core ideas of the show, mostly centered around transhumanism and the question of whether artificial intelligence comes with artificial humanity, are concerned (a complete opposite of the Akira case).
If anything, I recall the choice of director was being discussed as somewhat controversial due to his poor track record, but whitewashing GitS? Yeah, it's perhaps regrettable, to a degree, but if I'm getting a donut with powdered sugar rather than proper glaze, I've still got a donut and it's not like someone dipped it in mayonnaise just because they think mayonnaise goes well with everything. I'll take it, and enjoy it so long as the filling isn't a mess, thank you very much.
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,846
1
3
Country
United States
Adam Jensen said:
I have no problem with the casting. We don't know to what extent the movie is going to follow the 1995 anime. But even if we did, I still don't have a problem. It's just an anime movie. It's not like it's about a historic figure and the race of the characters matters like if someone had cast Denzel Washington to play George Washington.

There's a double standard here. Most people on The Escapist (I remember this) claimed that they wouldn't have a problem with a black James Bond, despite him being an iconic character with a long history. The dude is Scottish. But you have a problem with this all of a sudden? With an anime character being played by a non-Asian? Really? Do you really?
What does being Scottish have to do with his skin color? They're a minority but black Scots DO exist.

http://files.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays/untitled-1_22.png

I'm sorry, you royally shot yourself in the foot with the way you worded your argument.

And if I had to take a wild guess, I think the reason not too many people are bothered are because the white characters being played by non-white actors are isolated cases, while non-white characters being played by white actors has a rather depressing precedent. Not to mention Hollywood has a tendency to give limited roles to non-white actors. I'd be perfectly ok with the "Skin shouldn't matter, acting skill should" mindset, but sadly Hollywood just doesn't seem comfortable unless the majority of the actors are white. Hence the anger.

For example, in the Hunger Games book, Katniss was described as having olive skin. The casting for her character flat out called for "should be Caucasian, between ages 15 and 20, who could portray someone ?underfed but strong,? and ?naturally pretty underneath her tomboyishness." For the record, people with olive skin are commonly from Latin America.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
erttheking said:
For example, in the Hunger Games book, Katniss was described as having olive skin. The casting for her character flat out called for "should be Caucasian, between ages 15 and 20, who could portray someone ?underfed but strong,? and ?naturally pretty underneath her tomboyishness."
as someone from a family with a lot of white people with olive skin, I fail to see your point exactly. unaware a lot of people in the united states are descended from european immigrants?
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,846
1
3
Country
United States
valium said:
erttheking said:
For example, in the Hunger Games book, Katniss was described as having olive skin. The casting for her character flat out called for "should be Caucasian, between ages 15 and 20, who could portray someone ?underfed but strong,? and ?naturally pretty underneath her tomboyishness."
as someone from a family with a lot of white people with olive skin, I fail to see your point exactly. unaware a lot of people in the united states are descended from european immigrants?
Simple really.

The person that they got to play Katniss in the movie wasn't olive skinned. They decided that was too dark and wanted someone with lighter skin.

Frankly it's kind of sad considering that olive skin can hardly be noticed and Hollywood declared that Hunger Games need "white" white people.

Hollywood is frankly just pathetic.

Doesn't help that on the Fitzpatrick scale, olive skinned falls under "Moderately brown."
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
erttheking said:
valium said:
erttheking said:
For example, in the Hunger Games book, Katniss was described as having olive skin. The casting for her character flat out called for "should be Caucasian, between ages 15 and 20, who could portray someone ?underfed but strong,? and ?naturally pretty underneath her tomboyishness."
as someone from a family with a lot of white people with olive skin, I fail to see your point exactly. unaware a lot of people in the united states are descended from european immigrants?
Simple really.

The person that they got to play Katniss in the movie wasn't olive skinned. They decided that was too dark and wanted someone with lighter skin.

Frankly it's kind of sad considering that olive skin can hardly be noticed and Hollywood declared that Hunger Games need "white" white people.

Hollywood is frankly just pathetic.

Doesn't help that on the Fitzpatrick scale, olive skinned falls under "Moderately brown."
so the best actor they found to play the character was not the right kind of white person? is that what you are implying?

that implication is... racist.
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,846
1
3
Country
United States
valium said:
erttheking said:
valium said:
erttheking said:
For example, in the Hunger Games book, Katniss was described as having olive skin. The casting for her character flat out called for "should be Caucasian, between ages 15 and 20, who could portray someone ?underfed but strong,? and ?naturally pretty underneath her tomboyishness."
as someone from a family with a lot of white people with olive skin, I fail to see your point exactly. unaware a lot of people in the united states are descended from european immigrants?
Simple really.

The person that they got to play Katniss in the movie wasn't olive skinned. They decided that was too dark and wanted someone with lighter skin.

Frankly it's kind of sad considering that olive skin can hardly be noticed and Hollywood declared that Hunger Games need "white" white people.

Hollywood is frankly just pathetic.

Doesn't help that on the Fitzpatrick scale, olive skinned falls under "Moderately brown."
so the best actor they found to play the character was not the right kind of white person? is that what you are implying?
No, because really olive skinned isn't white. I checked and it turns out that people with olive skin tend to live in Latin America. In other words, they're Latino. They got a white actor to play a Latino character, or at least someone with the same shade of skin as a Latino character.

http://www.google.com/books?id=fewKcicENJYC&pg=PA234&dq=olive+skin+mediterranean&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GUHYU5_mA4aOyAT7rYEo&ved=0CCEQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=olive%20skin%20mediterranean&f=false

EDIT: Could also be Mediterranean.

And no it isn't racist. On the Fitzpatrick scale, Caucasian is a 2 or 3. Olive skinned is 4 or 5. The character was white washed, pure and simple. Minor white washing? Maybe. Still white washing.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
erttheking said:
valium said:
erttheking said:
valium said:
erttheking said:
For example, in the Hunger Games book, Katniss was described as having olive skin. The casting for her character flat out called for "should be Caucasian, between ages 15 and 20, who could portray someone ?underfed but strong,? and ?naturally pretty underneath her tomboyishness."
as someone from a family with a lot of white people with olive skin, I fail to see your point exactly. unaware a lot of people in the united states are descended from european immigrants?
Simple really.

The person that they got to play Katniss in the movie wasn't olive skinned. They decided that was too dark and wanted someone with lighter skin.

Frankly it's kind of sad considering that olive skin can hardly be noticed and Hollywood declared that Hunger Games need "white" white people.

Hollywood is frankly just pathetic.

Doesn't help that on the Fitzpatrick scale, olive skinned falls under "Moderately brown."
so the best actor they found to play the character was not the right kind of white person? is that what you are implying?
No, because really olive skinned isn't white. I checked and it turns out that people with olive skin tend to live in Latin America. In other words, they're Latino. They got a white actor to play a Latino character, or at least someone with the same shade of skin as a Latino character.

http://www.google.com/books?id=fewKcicENJYC&pg=PA234&dq=olive+skin+mediterranean&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GUHYU5_mA4aOyAT7rYEo&ved=0CCEQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=olive%20skin%20mediterranean&f=false

EDIT: Could also be Mediterranean.
and a lot of those who live in the mediterranean area can be considered white. such as southern france in the pyrenees, where my mother's side of the family comes from, or towards the italian border. olive skinned white people. also a lot of white people mixed with native american which comes out to olive skin in the appalachian mountains general area. I come from both.
 

Waterz

New member
Nov 19, 2009
1
0
0
As someone who's obsessed with GITS and The Major I thought I'd share the horror I already posted when an article about this came up on my news feed, so here goes...

Scarlett as the Major? Definitely a subpar choice but seeing as it's not a natural body and would be based off of the Majors own aesthetic preferences it might be understandable. If this indicates though that it's set outside Japan and in the west then I have almost no hope for a good adaptation. For me Shinto animist beliefs are a vital part of the context, while the franchise avoids being overtly supernatural most of the time I think it's often meant to be inferred as what drives a lot of what happens. The idea that a much wider range of things can have souls provides extremely important context that's not there when you transfer it to the west and it's so easy to foresee this being a generic "rogue AI" story (assuming it's an adaptation of the film) which kind of misses the point of GITS completely. I just know they're going to take the iconic tank designs and all the sci fi stuff and make an action film while either avoiding, barely touching upon or completely missing the point of the religion, philosophy and politics that's meant to be the emphasis of the franchise.

I can't see this ending well. I think it's almost impossible for any of the elements that make the franchise so special to actually make it into the film with studio executive pressure. At best I see this as possibly being a good sci fi action film almost unrelated to the source material. Realistically though I expect that it's going to be a horribly pretentious film that tries to explore the same things that the series does but fails miserably because of changes to try and broaden the appeal. Even if the person adapting it manages to nail it I can't see it getting through rewrites without losing the elements that make the franchise so special. This film is just not at all suitable for a big money Hollywood remake since the budget will demand that it appeal to such a wide audience that it's either going to be unrelated and possibly good or try to hit the same notes fail and flop.

Ok now addressing the actual article... I think intersectional feminism while coming from the right place doesn't really offer any equitable solutions to this issue. The fight you're taking up is essentially meaningless and won't dramatically increase the rate at which these issues are going to be solved. The increasingly global world will eventually allow for the representation that you all want protesting Hollywood casting decisions on the basis of race representation is going to do almost nothing. When you see how much the growing Chinese middle class is spending at theaters and realize that before long the two markets are probably going to merge to lower overheads for mega budget films (I mean there was already some of that with the transformers series) it'll start to grow clear that the issue of under-representation of Asians within films will start to solve itself. As for other minorities this might take significantly longer but really with the quality of a lot of the films produced by the big studios it's almost a favor.

If you want change the people you should be starting with if you want better representation of different groups isn't so much the actors as the film makers themselves. You can't really pressure filmmakers to write things they don't know about or don't care about, I mean we all know that the studio executives get a big say on a lot of whats going to happen in films even against the creative vision of the people making the film, but pressuring them include minorities is just going to result in tokens and caricatures. If you care about these stories I'm sure you can find plenty of kickstarter's or indiegogo's by people who do want to tell those stories even if they won't have as much of a broad appeal but if enough of them are successful then you'll start seeing more of those voices getting into the big studios and then as a result you'll start getting better representation on the screen too.

I absolutely adore ghost in the shell and there's pretty much no chance this film is going to be faithful to the original, actually good and successful at the same time. This is going to be horrific and having an Asian actress in the Majors role would actually probably be horrible for your cause since this thing is almost certainly going to flop and the blame might be assigned to that instead of the horrific writing that's going to be the real problem. Maybe you should just consider this a dodged bullet. Look at the creative staff and tell me that this has any chance of going well... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1219827/fullcredits?ref_=tt_ov_wr
 

Tsun Tzu

Feuer! Sperrfeuer! Los!
Legacy
May 3, 2020
1,620
80
33
Country
Free-Dom
Carly. Stahp. Pls.

Anywho!

Already posted my feelings about this in the original article announcing her getting the role.

I'm not fond of the decision and will likely spend viewing time completely knocked out of immersion just because I'll constantly be seeing her as...well, ScarJo.

She isn't The Major. She's ScarJo.

It's the same deal with, say George Clooney (Hey, look, George Clooney's an astronaut) or Samuel Jackson (Sam Jackson's a Jedi, nifty) in a role. If an actor is so big and saturated throughout media, then I just see the actor and not the character, to the detriment of the film/immersion. Granted, sometimes, I can get past it, if the performance is amazing, but it's a big damned hurdle.

I'm going to have to echo the sentiment from some posters...I'd have preferred Rinko, if she was even interested in the role to begin with anyway. If not? Eh. ScarJo certainly isn't bad. *shrug*

The movie, however, is likely to be quite awful, what with the assembled 'talent' and all.

We're probably looking at another Aeon Flux. Joy of joys.
T_ConX said:
If you're still salty about ScarJo playing the Major, then I suggest you go hang out with the dudes who are still angry over Idris Elba playing a Norse God.
I was never "angry" over that, but I feel much the same way about that particular instance that I do about this one.

If a character is X race or Y gender, then I'm of the mind that they should be represented as such, in the interest of reflecting said character as best as possible. This goes for any race/gender/whatever. I don't care about that nonsense.

With that said, Idris did a fine job. I actually quite liked him in the role, as he does the somber guardian schtick very well...but it still irks me just on the "it's not as close of a representation as possible" level.
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,846
1
3
Country
United States
valium said:
erttheking said:
valium said:
erttheking said:
valium said:
erttheking said:
For example, in the Hunger Games book, Katniss was described as having olive skin. The casting for her character flat out called for "should be Caucasian, between ages 15 and 20, who could portray someone ?underfed but strong,? and ?naturally pretty underneath her tomboyishness."
as someone from a family with a lot of white people with olive skin, I fail to see your point exactly. unaware a lot of people in the united states are descended from european immigrants?
Simple really.

The person that they got to play Katniss in the movie wasn't olive skinned. They decided that was too dark and wanted someone with lighter skin.

Frankly it's kind of sad considering that olive skin can hardly be noticed and Hollywood declared that Hunger Games need "white" white people.

Hollywood is frankly just pathetic.

Doesn't help that on the Fitzpatrick scale, olive skinned falls under "Moderately brown."
so the best actor they found to play the character was not the right kind of white person? is that what you are implying?
No, because really olive skinned isn't white. I checked and it turns out that people with olive skin tend to live in Latin America. In other words, they're Latino. They got a white actor to play a Latino character, or at least someone with the same shade of skin as a Latino character.

http://www.google.com/books?id=fewKcicENJYC&pg=PA234&dq=olive+skin+mediterranean&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GUHYU5_mA4aOyAT7rYEo&ved=0CCEQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=olive%20skin%20mediterranean&f=false

EDIT: Could also be Mediterranean.
and a lot of those who live in the mediterranean area can be considered white. such as southern france in the pyrenees, where my mother's side of the family comes from, or towards the italian border. olive skinned white people. also a lot of white people mixed with native american which comes out to olive skin in the appalachian mountains general area. I come from both.
That's interesting. It doesn't change the fact that the actor hired to play Katniss is clearly none of these things. Caucasian and olive skinned were very different things. It would've been one thing if it had been an open audition and they just decided that that the one that they got was the best for the roll, but actors with olive skin didn't even get to try.

Frankly it feels like they did something on par with putting up INNA.
 

nightmare_gorilla

New member
Jan 22, 2008
461
0
0
I've heard this complaint many times that modern or "3rd wave" feminism is mostly wealthy white women who do not care about the problems of black or Asian women. I remember black feminists have repeatedly taken issue with lena dunham only to be shot down by white feminists. to me it speaks to why humanism is a better idea as it removes the concept of gender or race and just presses us to be decent people to other people we meet.

As for the issue itself, SJ as kusinagi? I can see why people would be mad about it, I also don't see the difference between taking her and making her white vs taking human torch and making him black. honestly most of the time it's just being done to stir up hype and use outrage to promote a film for free rather than for any ideological reasons.

in the end i think it's an issue with perseption right as oposed to how people really feel. you get one of these marketers or "by the numbers" film makers and decisions like this are basically ticking a box on a checklist. I picture some giant jackass in a board room with slicked back hair and a cigar going "what do the kids like these days? that japanimation stuff right? they also like that chick from the marvel movies. brilliant!" this decision is someone saying "hey i'm not the reason this movie sucks i put scarlet johansen in it she makes money so the movie SHOULD have made money and i can't be held accountable if it doesn't" the americanization seems to be more so so old white producers can wrap their head around the concept. i hate using terms like that but the voting members of either the emmys or the acadamy awards, one of those awards shows, the median age is 88 and they are all white men. i'm not into diversity quotas but that is some bullshit.

I for one DO think it's a poor choice. but i also agree most live action adaptations of anime tend to suck and moreso than just being bad they are unnecisary, no way are they going to cram into one movie everything you love about a character from a 50+ episode series. you like it? great go watch the anime again, or make more episodes of it, but i mean how long did it take AMERICAN movies to understand what makes AMERICAN comic book characters so great? you really think the king of all egomaniacs hollywood is going to understand something from another culture?
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

New member
Aug 22, 2010
2,578
0
0
Rellik San said:
Here's another question:

Other than character names, what is there about GitS and it's setting that is actually uniquely Japanese?

Because I'm seeing a lot of people bark about how GitS is such a Japanese show and it could only Japanese and I'm thinking to myself: "Have you people ever read William Gibson or Phillip K. Dick?"
A lot of the social, economic and military politics involved in both seasons of Stand Alone Complex are as I understand them rather rooted in parallels to the same of real life Japan at the time of creation. These may have changed in the decade or so since the show was made obviously. And it becomes a plot point when the Major has to operate outside of her own country where she has basically no authority. The sci-fi stuff is lifted right from the classics though.


Personally, I'm disappointed but I'll be far more disappointed if the choose to use Mamoru Isshi's movie as their base template because while it is itself one of the classics, after watching SaC I think it's boring and takes some of the cheeky fun out of Motoko's character. Plus I loved the Tachikomas


You know what though, if I was going to adapt an Anime, I'd be doing Gunsmith Cats!



A gun toting bounty hunter chick, her grenade mad buddy, a Shelby Cobra GT-500 and a gun shop. And all based in the Windy City, this would have been piss-easy and have none of the complaints. And for fun and profit; ScarJo could play Natasha Rednov
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
erttheking said:
What does being Scottish have to do with his skin color? They're a minority but black Scots DO exist.

http://files.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays/untitled-1_22.png
can you maybe stop trying to inform people about the demograhics of my nation based on knowledge you've gleened playing computer games ?

please.

i'll promise to not claim Bravehart is historically accurate if we can maybe do a tit for tat pinky swear ;)

in the 2001 census the numbers of black Scots is given as 0.12%

that's a tenth of one percent -.-

which in nation of only 5 million is not so much "a minority" as a statistically recorded anomaly.

...or a big family on holiday...walking around...goin'..."there are no black people here :eek:"
 

Scars Unseen

^ ^ v v < > < > B A
May 7, 2009
3,028
0
0
CrystalShadow said:
Scars Unseen said:
Soviet Heavy said:
A much greater travesty is the dub for the anime Steins;Gate, where they completely erased all traces of Japanese otaku culture from the show, which was half of what the show was actually about.
I don't... Oh wait, I've never seen the dub of steins;gate - the tv channel that was showing it here was showing a subbed version, not dubbed.
Sounds messed up. Especially considering some of the main plot points...
It's pretty bad. They replaced all of the otaku references with generic western geek humor. I get that they were trying to make the show more accessible to western audiences, but it just doesn't work very well.

 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,846
1
3
Country
United States
Sleekit said:
erttheking said:
What does being Scottish have to do with his skin color? They're a minority but black Scots DO exist.

http://files.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays/untitled-1_22.png
can you maybe stop trying to inform people about the demograhics of my nation based on knowledge you've gleened playing computer games ?

please.

i'll promise to not claim Bravehart is historically accurate if we can maybe do a tit for tat pinky swear ;)

in the 2001 census the numbers of black Scots is given as 0.12%

that's a tenth of one percent -.-

which in nation of only 5 million is not so much "a minority" as a statistically recorded anomaly.

...or a big family on holiday...walking around...goin'..."there are no black people here :eek:"
Putting the demonman was a joke. Chill man.

I did check the official statistics for black men and I saw that they were low. They still exist though. So frankly if the only problem with with James Bond is that he's Scottish, and I don't see why him being black is a problem.

And no it's a minority. That's still tens of thousands of people.

Also can you please cut it out with the emoticons and sarcasm?
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
erttheking said:
And no it's a minority. That's still tens of thousands of people.
most of whom are non permanently resident students.

erttheking said:
Also can you please cut it out with the emoticons and sarcasm?
not really.

 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,846
1
3
Country
United States
Sleekit said:
erttheking said:
Also can you please cut it out with the emoticons and sarcasm?
not really.

Ok. So is that it for our conversation? Because I feel like it would be pretty unproductive if it just ended there.

Ah, there we go. Non-resisdants. Got a citation for that?
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
erttheking said:
Sleekit said:
erttheking said:
Also can you please cut it out with the emoticons and sarcasm?
not really.

Ok. So is that it for our conversation? Because I feel like nothing really came out of that.
Scotlands a big small place and like i said before i never saw a black person until i reached adulthood.

i don't like my life experience being denied -.-

but.

im always smiling and humorous...to myself if no one else...and i ain't gonna stop for anyone.

so i was answering your request honestly.

erttheking said:
Ah, there we go. Non-resisdants. Got a citation for that?
yes, its called visiting the Glasgow student hangouts and noticing lots of Africans.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
This is how it's going to be.

My name is Major Motoko Kusa...nagi? Motoko Kusenagi, no, again. Motako, ah, fuck.

CUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT!
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,846
1
3
Country
United States
Sleekit said:
erttheking said:
Sleekit said:
erttheking said:
Also can you please cut it out with the emoticons and sarcasm?
not really.

Ok. So is that it for our conversation? Because I feel like nothing really came out of that.
Scotlands a big small place and like i said before i never saw a black person until i reached adulthood.

i don't like my life experience being denied -.-

but.

im always smiling...and i ain't gonna stop for anyone.

so i was answering your request honestly.
That's it? Your life experience? No offense man, but it doesn't matter how small Scotland is, unless you personally saw every last person of the 5 million that lived there, that isn't what I would call hard evidence to the majority of the black people living there being permanent non-residance. I need something a bit harder than that. I wouldn't just put up my personal experience for the race ratio in my town, I'd get hard evidence for it. Heck, Massachusetts is around the same size as Scotland, if a bit bigger. I've lived here all my life and I wouldn't assume myself to be knowledgeable enough on the status of the population without hard data.

Non my intention, my apologies.
 

Souther Thorn

New member
Apr 5, 2013
105
0
0
Toilet said:
Sleekit said:
This, it's a non issue and definitely not a feminist issue. It's a western American take on a Japanese property so it's not an issue if a white, extremely popular ScarJo is cast as the lead. If there is a big huge outcry from Japan or the nip community then we get to ponder if we're awful for "whitewashing".

All depends if it's an American adaption of another countries property which Ghost in the Shell is or if it's an American movie set in a place that is distinctly ethnic like Exodus, Last Airbender ect ect. I half bet that this American Adaption of Ghost in the Shell will be set in a big USA city.

Almost makes me think if people would be mad if there was an American Ace Attorney movie, have a think.

Dude....did you just make reference to 'The nip community'?? I'm....this might not be what I'd consider a race or feminist issue with ScarJo, but 'Nip' is kinda a blatantly racist term.
 

Souther Thorn

New member
Apr 5, 2013
105
0
0
Tono Makt said:
deth2munkies said:
Because anime girls overwhelmingly look like white women by design.

Sorry, but somebody had to say it.
Where the white women with blue hair at?

(seriously, how come girls rarely dye their hair a bright shade of blue? pinks, reds, purplishes, yellows, all over the place. but a nice Sailor Mercury shade of blue? argh!)
Come up to Seattle, we've got em all over the place in a racial rainbow of multicolored hair goodness.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
erttheking said:
Sleekit said:
erttheking said:
Sleekit said:
erttheking said:
Also can you please cut it out with the emoticons and sarcasm?
not really.

Ok. So is that it for our conversation? Because I feel like nothing really came out of that.
Scotlands a big small place and like i said before i never saw a black person until i reached adulthood.

i don't like my life experience being denied -.-

but.

im always smiling and humorous...to myself if no one else...and i ain't gonna stop for anyone.

so i was answering your request honestly.
That's it? Your life experience? No offense man, but it doesn't matter how small Scotland is, unless you personally saw every last person of the 5 million that lived there, that isn't what I would call hard evidence to the majority of the black people living there being permanent non-residance. I need something a bit harder than that. I wouldn't just put up my personal experience for the race ratio in my town, I'd get hard evidence for it. Heck, Massachusetts is around the same size as Scotland, if a bit bigger. I've lived here all my life and I wouldn't assume myself to be knowledgeable enough on the status of the population without hard data.

Non my intention, my apologies.
maybe you should pause to ask yourself why you think there should be a noticeable native black population here.

i mean i know why there are black people in America.

and i know why there are Poles, Italians and Pakistanis and Shiks here.

but there is no reason for black people to be here.

anyway

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/People/Equality/Equalities/DataGrid/Ethnicity/EthPopMig

black ? (as opposed to African) 7k.
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,846
1
3
Country
United States
Sleekit said:
erttheking said:
Sleekit said:
erttheking said:
Sleekit said:
erttheking said:
Also can you please cut it out with the emoticons and sarcasm?
not really.

Ok. So is that it for our conversation? Because I feel like nothing really came out of that.
Scotlands a big small place and like i said before i never saw a black person until i reached adulthood.

i don't like my life experience being denied -.-

but.

im always smiling...and i ain't gonna stop for anyone.

so i was answering your request honestly.
That's it? Your life experience? No offense man, but it doesn't matter how small Scotland is, unless you personally saw every last person of the 5 million that lived there, that isn't what I would call hard evidence to the majority of the black people living there being permanent non-residance. I need something a bit harder than that. I wouldn't just put up my personal experience for the race ratio in my town, I'd get hard evidence for it. Heck, Massachusetts is around the same size as Scotland, if a bit bigger. I've lived here all my life and I wouldn't assume myself to be knowledgeable enough on the status of the population without hard data.

Non my intention, my apologies.
maybe you should pause ask yourself why you think there should be a noticeable native black population here.

anyway

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/People/Equality/Equalities/DataGrid/Ethnicity/EthPopMig

black ? (as opposed to African) 7k.
I didn't. I looked up some statstics that lead me to beleive so. I didn't say there "should" be.

Ok fair enough.
 

jhoroz

New member
Mar 7, 2012
494
0
0
I mean considering the themes of the orignal work that the Major's body is nothing more than a tool or a comsetic choice that she likes to change from time to time, there's nothing to stop Hollywood from hiring both ScarJo AND Kikuchi. As someone else said, there are episodes where the Major has missions in foreign countries (e.g. Germany and the UK) so it would make sense for her to have a Caucasian body. Granted, having to convince some suit to have your protaganist in a blockbuster movie played by two different actresses would be twice as difficult than trying to convince them for her to be played by an Asian woman.

Also, while Kikuchi does resemble the Major more than ScarJo, I wasn't impressed at all with her performance in Pacific Rim. ScarJo's portrayal of Black Widow in the Winter Soldier shows lot more potential for her as the Major (e.g. cunning, ruthless, resourceful, witty etc.) Granted, I'm comparing this more with the Major from SaC rather than the movie adaptation, but since SaC is closer to the actual manga, I'd rather they went with that portrayal.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
erttheking said:
Ok fair enough.
im sorry erttheking. maybe i came across as too abrasive in that little exchange.

but if you could see my face hopefully you'd see it was all meant in jocularity and good humour.

hence the comment at the very start about Bravehearts historical accuracy and pinky swears.

Scots humour is kind of abrasive...even aggressive...and sometimes i forget others aren't used that.
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,846
1
3
Country
United States
Sleekit said:
erttheking said:
Ok fair enough.
im sorry erttheking. maybe i came across as too abrasive in that little exchange.

but if you could see my face hopefully you'd see it was all meant in jocularity and good humour.

hence the comment at the very start about Bravehearts historical accuracy and pinky swears.

Scots humorous is abrasive...even aggressive...and sometimes i forget others aren't used that.
Heh, it's cool.

To be honest I let myself get a little too worked up on forums.

Plus Poe's Law and all that.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
DizzyChuggernaut said:
Many people find Keanu Reeves to be a mediocre actor yet they'll still applaud The Matrix (the original one at least).
I think his appeal has at least something to do with the fact that he's fully aware he's not an amazing actor, but doesn't seem overly bothered. And that he's the nicest famous person since Dave Grohl/Mother Teresa (I couldn't decide which, I'm not suggesting they're the same person).
 

Grumman

New member
Sep 11, 2008
254
0
0
Baffle said:
And that he's the nicest famous person since Dave Grohl/Mother Teresa (I couldn't decide which, I'm not suggesting they're the same person).
Mother Teresa was a monster who fetishised the suffering of the innocent. Please stop using her as a positive example.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
Grumman said:
Mother Teresa was a monster who fetishised the suffering of the innocent. Please stop using her as a positive example.
My bad, just Dave Grohl and the Chuckle Brothers then I guess.
 

Bat Vader

New member
Mar 11, 2009
4,996
0
0
I think it would be cool if the movie was just about an American team set in the Ghost In The Shell Universe and that at the end of the film they team up with Section 9 who is all played by Japanese actors with Rinko Kikuchi as the major.
 

Super Cyborg

New member
Jul 25, 2014
474
0
0
While there are most likely somewhat racist/sexist/bigot intents at times with Hollywood, I want to offer a different point that could be a bigger problem overall, and that is just the need to use big named people in a movie in order for it to sell.

These days it seems that when a big blockbuster comes out, whenever a preview is shown, there seems to be an emphasis on who the actors are. When seeing previews for Lucy, it really seemed to home in on the idea of "Hey, this is the person who played Black Widow in the Avengers. You all loved that, so you will love this movie." The problem can extend then extend to movies with minority leads as well. If you are going to have an action movie with a person of a color other than white, they will most likely choose from an even smaller pool of well known people. Heck, look at something like Dolphin Tale, which could've had any actor, but chose Morgan Freeman for some reason.

People seem to like to go to movies with actors they know and like, and with Hollywood knowing that, instead of trying to find people to fit the role, they take a famous person, have them in it, and use their name to sell the movie. This makes a select number of people always appearing, while others only take small side roles, or only star in lesser known movies. Thus we get Johanneson playing the character, because she can get people in, unlike if you got any other person, because that wouldn't sell tickets. This also probably shows they aren't confident in their project, so need big names to really sell.

In the end, something needs to happen where the idea of only well known people staring in the big movies has to go away. This has to go with people not caring about acting choices, as well as previews selling the actual product, not the people selling the movie because they are famous.
 

madwarper

New member
Mar 17, 2011
1,842
0
0
roseofbattle said:
It's probably been pointed out several times in this thread, but it's worthwhile to just repeat; The title is Ghost in the Shell. Motoko is the "Ghost", and her completely prosthetic body is "the Shell". Her Ghost could be in ANY Shell, and she'd STILL be Motoko. Hell, Batou kept suggesting that she "upgrade" to a male prosthetic. So, is there an easily explainable, canonical reason for why an actress such as Johansson is playing Motoko? Yes.

As for movies like Avatar and Dragonball having white casts... That was the least of their problems. How about we aim for movies that aren't shit, before we worry about casting ethnically appropriate characters? Last thing I want to see is a minority actor kill their career by being attached to a flaming pile of shit.
 

BloodRed Pixel

New member
Jul 16, 2009
630
0
0
Aggieknight said:
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?
No she's not a ROBOT.
Kusanagi is orignially a japanese female human person that got a full prosthetic body replacement, which still holds her real brain. That makes her a cyborg, which is a totally different thing.
 

DarkhoIlow

New member
Dec 31, 2009
2,531
0
0
The one thing Hollywood shouldn't get their hands on is anime or anime movies..STAY AWAY PLEASE. It's the last bastion of enjoyment of mine that you haven't ruined yet.

I really hope this movie doesn't see the light of day...americanize it is one thing (and it's insulting to the series itself) but adding a white actress in it as well? That is going way too far. Stop please!
 

Rellik San

New member
Feb 3, 2011
609
0
0
hentropy said:
Rellik San said:
Here's another question:

Other than character names, what is there about GitS and it's setting that is actually uniquely Japanese?
It's set in Japan and all the main characters are Japanese special law enforcement agents. Most of the main cast is Japanese, as in they have Japanese personas.

Personally I don't like the idea that something can only be "uniquely Japanese" if it's set in old Kyoto with everyone wearing kimono and/or being samurai. GitS does have some focus outside of Japan, but it is still set there with most of the characters being Japanese. The story details and setting would have to be reworked to a significant degree in order to localize it.
It's a story about people who have undergone extensive cybernetic enhancement and are permanently connected to the internet, how they cope with this, how such expensive augmetics is possible (government loaned bodies), and the sense of self that can be lost we no longer resemble ourselves... ...That happens to be set in Japan. We've seen this story a thousand times from western Sci-Fi authors many decades before Shirow was on the scene, it's a basic Cyberpunk story told with great visual flair, but your kidding yourself if you think because it's set in Japan that makes it uniquely Japanese.

I'm also not saying we have to see Okinawa Samurai fighting against the Shogun for it to be uniquely Japanese, but elements of Japanese culture, their sense of self, their office politics, their social standards... these things are not present in either the original texts of the 1995 Movie. They are present in Stand Alone Complex, but mostly as window dressing to the cases.

So with that in mind, I ask you again, other than names and it happening to be set in Japan, what would actually need to be significantly reworked for this adaptation?
 

Vorpal_Smilodon

New member
Apr 13, 2013
56
0
0
I call BS! You can't be saying black Heimdal is no big deal/actively good (agreed) and then get pissed of at a white Motoko. "But why a white woman?" is the exact kind of crapola racists were spouting about Heimdal, 'boohoo whys he got to be black' - the director gets to cast who he thinks is best for the role. Grrr, at this rate a year from now the escapist is going to be just as clickbaity as buzzfeed.

And the writer is completely ignoring the fact that hiring Scarlett is basically advertising, so it doesn't matter that there are equally good asian actresses. Unless you're trying to say there's an equally famous asian woman actor who will draw in just as many people in american theaters?
 

PH3NOmenon

New member
Oct 23, 2009
294
0
0
roseofbattle said:
Abomination said:
The selected Scarlett Johansson because she's hot as hell, fits the figure, puts bums on seats, and let's not get into how so many anime characters look "white" anyway.

This isn't a racist issue in the slightest and it isn't even a feminism issue. Motoko Kusanagi has always been a woman, this role would be filled by a woman in any scenario.

What kind of bullshit clickbait topic is this anyway?

RACISM!

FEMINISM!

COLLECT VIEWS!

PROFIT!
Instead of jumping to "clickbait," maybe read the article and see that Hollywood has always placed its star power on male actors and now white female actors. There are Asian actors who are repeatedly denied roles. Yes, Johansson could conceivably do this role well. Does it have to be her? No.
Does it have to *not* be her? No.
Is there anything wrong with it being her? No.


I'm with Abomination here. This isn't what racism is. At all. Whatsoever.

If we consider this racism, then we're doing something very wrong.
 

Sampler

He who is not known
May 5, 2008
650
0
0
Ethnic minorities are prevented from playing white characters
Idris Elba played Heimdall (to many complaints admittedly, but he rocked the role) he may even be the next James Bond (again, to much chargin') - I don't see him having the suave myself but I'll watch the guy in anything so count my bum on a seat. (yes, yes, it's one example - and by no means am I trying to belittle the point, it shouldn't be, but also, that statement wasn't entirely true).

I've seen a lot of comments about Scarlet being cast in the GitS but not which character, we've all assumed she's the Major and complained about it as far as I can see.

I'm actually hoping she's the bad guy, I reckon she'd rock playing the antagonist, especially after all the good guy roles she's been getting.
 

Abomination

New member
Dec 17, 2012
2,939
0
0
PH3NOmenon said:
roseofbattle said:
Abomination said:
The selected Scarlett Johansson because she's hot as hell, fits the figure, puts bums on seats, and let's not get into how so many anime characters look "white" anyway.

This isn't a racist issue in the slightest and it isn't even a feminism issue. Motoko Kusanagi has always been a woman, this role would be filled by a woman in any scenario.

What kind of bullshit clickbait topic is this anyway?

RACISM!

FEMINISM!

COLLECT VIEWS!

PROFIT!
Instead of jumping to "clickbait," maybe read the article and see that Hollywood has always placed its star power on male actors and now white female actors. There are Asian actors who are repeatedly denied roles. Yes, Johansson could conceivably do this role well. Does it have to be her? No.
Does it have to *not* be her? No.
Is there anything wrong with it being her? No.


I'm with roseofbattle here. This isn't what racism is. At all. Whatsoever.

If we consider this racism, then we're doing something very wrong.
I think you mean to say you agree with me here, not roseofbattle :)
 

theNater

New member
Feb 11, 2011
227
0
0
Jake Martinez said:
"What ratios of representation should we have in films?"
Something in the neighborhood of what the ratios are in the population at large.
Jake Martinez said:
"How should we decide or deduce what these ratios are?"
By looking at census data(for the population at large), and tracking similar data in films.
Jake Martinez said:
"Who should be the people to be in charge of deciding this?"
Society at large. This is a social issue, and so should be handled socially. Organizations focused on particular demographic groups should be tracking representation of their group, and mentioning it publicly when things seem out of whack.
Jake Martinez said:
"How do you enforce some system like this?"
Social pressure. Mostly just asking representatives of those studios which have screwy representation "what's up with that?" every time you talk to them, and occasionally saying "good job" to those with good representation.
Jake Martinez said:
"Does this change over time? How do we change this?"
Hiring practices. If things are massively out of whack, it's reasonable to assume there's some unconscious bias in the hiring process. Deliberately engage in preferential hiring to counter that unconscious bias until you're in the right neighborhood.
Jake Martinez said:
"What happens if you just really want to make a character that is of a race/gender that is already over represented?"
Then you ask yourself why you want that character to be that race/gender. If there is some significant story/characterization reason, then you go ahead regardless. Otherwise, you change it.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
Sleekit said:
as a fan of Asian cinema...they do have their own industry y'know...plenty of (extremely famous, accomplished and talented) Asian women cast there...

there's more to the world than the Hollywood zeitgeist...and i see no reason why Hollywood should not equally serve its own (primarily home) market demographics.
So since Sleekit tore the whole article apart in these two sentences (that were admittedly full of ellipses), maybe the editors and writers at the escapist should consider taking it down and apologizing for being racists.
 

LazyAza

New member
May 28, 2008
716
0
0
Eh it sucks but in this instance I don't really care that much. I'm far far more worried about this movie not being shit when their is a 99% certainty no matter who was cast as who it would suck. And I think johansen could do a fine job as Motoko. The name thing can always be explained away as "one of my parents was japanese" or "I grew up in japan" etc.

On a related note ghost in the shell is one of the most americanized sci-fi anime things to ever exist. Most of the core characters don't even look japanese, heck the lead male (batou) is one of the most american-looking anime characters to ever exist. I can think of several white male actors who could play him very well.

Not to mention the english dub of the movies and series is phenominal and I've always preferred the english vo cast, especially since characters like batou have been played by the same guy since the original.

Gits is basically a japanese interpretation of american police drama, but with cyborgs and such. I could see it easily being translated to a more "western" version very well but it would still require a talented writer and director regardless. I feel this is one example where "white washing" isn't really as terrible as it would be under many other circumstances. With Avatar it was absurd, with this much less so.
 

Abomination

New member
Dec 17, 2012
2,939
0
0
theNater said:
Jake Martinez said:
"What ratios of representation should we have in films?"
Something in the neighborhood of what the ratios are in the population at large.
In the context of the setting of the media.
Jake Martinez said:
"How should we decide or deduce what these ratios are?"
By looking at census data(for the population at large), and tracking similar data in films.
In the context of the setting of the media.
Jake Martinez said:
"Who should be the people to be in charge of deciding this?"
Society at large. This is a social issue, and so should be handled socially. Organizations focused on particular demographic groups should be tracking representation of their group, and mentioning it publicly when things seem out of whack.
Socially run companies are known as the government. Do you really want the government to run entertainment?
Jake Martinez said:
"How do you enforce some system like this?"
Social pressure. Mostly just asking representatives of those studios which have screwy representation "what's up with that?" every time you talk to them, and occasionally saying "good job" to those with good representation.
I prefer to buy media I like, not media I find meets someone else's social criteria.
Jake Martinez said:
"Does this change over time? How do we change this?"
Hiring practices. If things are massively out of whack, it's reasonable to assume there's some unconscious bias in the hiring process. Deliberately engage in preferential hiring to counter that unconscious bias until you're in the right neighborhood.
Which will soon be overturned by those who were not hired due to their demographic rather than their merit. You would be engaging in genuine discrimination in an effort to counter it. You would be creating victims to replace victims at a 1:1 ratio.
Jake Martinez said:
"What happens if you just really want to make a character that is of a race/gender that is already over represented?"
Then you ask yourself why you want that character to be that race/gender. If there is some significant story/characterization reason, then you go ahead regardless. Otherwise, you change it.
I'm not about to dictate the story someone else wishes to create because it doesn't fit my world view.
 

Piorn

New member
Dec 26, 2007
1,097
0
0
Wait, wait, wait, Travis?
I thought that American Akira cartoon trailer on youtube was just a random parody.

And on topic, considering the current trend of movie making, it'll just be another Robocop reboot that people will have forgotten in a week. It's unfortunate, but that's capitalism for you. Gotta fullfill the quota!
 

Zato-1

New member
Mar 27, 2009
58
0
0
No, I don't think we need more feminism at all. In fact, I would prefer a lot less of it.
Gender equality is good. Feminism, however, seems to stand for "men bad, women good" nowadays.
 

fezzthemonk

New member
Jun 27, 2009
105
0
0
Aggieknight said:
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?

I ask because Scarlett, besides being extremely hot, looks a heck of a lot like Motoko. Ergo the casting makes sense to me.

Hollywood does have a problem with whitewashing, for example - the recent Exodus and Noah movies, but I don't see this as a case.
This is kinda the point ghat most who are screaming raceism are missing. She shed her human shell long ago for a full prothsetic (robotic) body. One of the themes the show takles is the precieved loss of self after enough prothstetic peices have been added. Matoko has resided in several different bodies, hell, she could be played by a man and it would still fit
 

laggyteabag

Scrolling through forums, instead of playing games
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
2,697
286
88
UK
Scarlett Johansson is a fine actress, and one that could pull off this role very well, no doubt about that. Would it have been a better choice to go for an Asian actress? Probably, but how many people will go rushing to the cinema to watch a film that stars some unknown actress that was in Pacific Rim that one time, as opposed to ScarJo who is very well known for her action movies?

You can probably expect a very westernised interpretation of Ghost in the Shell, and that could be fine. What is the worst thing that could happen? We get a shitty film. Great. Will the anime franchise get hurt in any way? Probably not. It will probably get chalked in with the rest of the shitty anime films that exist, and everybody will move on with their lives. All I can say is that at least it is a very capable actress in the lead role, and I am more than willing to give it a chance, but if you are a hardcore Ghost in the Shell fan that will criticise each and every thing that differs from the anime, this film is probably not for you anyway.
 

Abomination

New member
Dec 17, 2012
2,939
0
0
Laggyteabag said:
Scarlett Johansson is a fine actress, and one that could pull off this role very well, no doubt about that. Would it have been a better choice to go for an Asian actress? Probably, but how many people will go rushing to the cinema to watch a film that stars some unknown actress that was in Pacific Rim that one time, as opposed to ScarJo who is very well known for her action movies?

You can probably expect a very westernised interpretation of Ghost in the Shell, and that could be fine. What is the worst thing that could happen? We get a shitty film. Great. Will the anime franchise get hurt in any way? Probably not. It will probably get chalked in with the rest of the shitty anime films that exist, and everybody will move on with their lives. All I can say is that at least it is a very capable actress in the lead roll, and I am more than willing to give it a chance, but if you are a hardcore Ghost in the Shell fan that will criticise each and every thing that differs from the anime, this film is probably not for you anyway.
I actually quite liked the western take on Edge of Tomorrow. It wasn't exactly a flop so it's good to remember the west can make "anime/manga" movies that stay relatively true to the source material.
 

blackrave

New member
Mar 7, 2012
2,020
0
0
1.Yes, Major is full cyborg (organic brain+synthetic body) with mass produced body
2.Yes, she can look like anyone, but she has distinct look to her
3.No, Scarlet doesn't look like Major, since Major had distinct Japanese/Asian feel to her look
4.If anyone Batou always had non-asian feel to him (at least from my POV)
5.Really? This crap again? And this time they are messing with my favorite anime? FUUUUUUUUU...
6.Awesome if they hire lookalikes to play few random background people (to show that there are people with similar look like Motoko)
7.Bonus points if they never make big deal out of Nr.6
 

Ihateregistering1

New member
Mar 30, 2011
2,034
0
0
"Ethnic minorities are prevented from playing white characters, yet white characters are given free reign to play minorities."
Ok, is this article seriously trolling?

-Idris Elba as Heimdall
-Will Smith as James West (he was white in the original TV show)
-Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury (yes I know there's the "Ultimate Marvel" version of Fury as well, but the original, white Nick Fury had been around decades longer).
-Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm (Fantastic Four reboot)
-Michael Clark Duncan as Kingpin (Daredevil)
-Denzel Washington (The Manchurian Candidate)
-Morgan Freeman (Shawshank Redemption. In the book, his character was white).
-Lucy Lui in Charlie's Angels

There are more but I think that's enough. And guess what? You hear WAAAAYYYYY more cries of outrage when they cast a white actor to play a black/Hispanic/Asian person than vice versa.

I'm not saying I approve of it in any direction, but to pretend that ethnic minorities are "prevented" from playing white characters is just ridiculous.

Oh and Carly, it's 'given free rein', not 'given free reign'.
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
0
0
Zato-1 said:
No, I don't think we need more feminism at all. In fact, I would prefer a lot less of it.
Gender equality is good. Feminism, however, seems to stand for "men bad, women good" nowadays.
There are people who call themselves feminists that do have that kind of mentality. They are a minority and not actually feminists. Feminism is about equality in social standing and opportunity. No need to throw the movement out with the bathwater.

OT - I offer for consideration the following random collection of thoughts:

It seems there are no few people willing to uphold a racist double standard when it comes to the supposed ethical obligations Hollywood has when making casting decisions. I find it irksome that so many people who claim to be against racism would support racist (by definition) ideology. I will always argue that one does not serve the cause of equality by fighting for racist double standards.

People do not have a right to representation in creative works. Those works, whether created by a single artist or art-by-committee, are the vision of their creators.

People do have a right to criticize creative works for not including representations they think are appropriate. Coupled with my last point, it is fair for someone to say that they think the role of Makoto would be better suited to an Asian actress. It would not be fair to say that those making the movie are or should be ethically obligated to cast an Asian actress in the role.

People are and should be free to put social pressure on artists to get them to conform to what those people view as "correct" representation. Artists are and should be free to criticize and/or ignore the crap out of those people.

Those who would (myself included) like to see more minorities represented in various roles in media need to be less picky about how those roles are represented. One of the biggest damned deterrents to portraying any minority character is the inevitable backlash you're going to get from people who decide they don't like the representation. One need look no further than Disney's "The Princess and the Frog" and the kerfuffle over just the lead characters name to see what I mean. If every time an artist includes a minority character in their work, they promptly get the pointy end of the social justice movement, they are going to be a heck of a lot less likely to include minority characters in future works.

There is simply no pleasing everyone. If we assert that including minority characters is an ethical obligation and claim that how those characters are portrayed is also carries an ethical obligation, then there is no possible way for a content creator to meet those ethical obligations. If they do not include minority characters, they are certain to offend. If they do include minority characters, they are certain to offend. This problem is not one that can be resolved so long as people are intent on being offended.
 

Aggieknight

New member
Dec 6, 2009
229
0
0
BloodRed Pixel said:
Aggieknight said:
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?
No she's not a ROBOT.
Kusanagi is orignially a japanese female human person that got a full prosthetic body replacement, which still holds her real brain. That makes her a cyborg, which is a totally different thing.
Yet being a CYBORG (caps lock get stuck?) with a full prosthetic body replacement she can be any race or ethnicity that they (the people that gave her a new body) want her to be.
 

b.w.irenicus

New member
Apr 16, 2013
104
0
0
Well, first things first, I have zero problems with Johansen starring Ghost in the Shell. I do however understand that for diversitys sake and in this case the sake of a faithful adaptation some people would like the movie to feature asian actors. And I don't disagree with that, I would still watch the movie (if it was good to begin with). However, I do want to contribute a different perspective:
I love watching movies with my wife. And you knw whta she does if a moves features only asian actors? She does not watch it. Hold on hold on! Not because she doesn't like asians or thinks they are somehow less than we are (in fact, she has this weid fetish that almost all asians are cute and beatiful, kinda like human elves -_-).
Its just that she cannot tell them appart. She just can't. I tried watching The Raid with her and she was constantly asking "Who was that again?" "On witch side was he on?", the asian names didn't help either. So for her, watching a movie that features only asian actors demands a high degee of concentration and simply put, is hardly any fun. And afaik that's not "white" phenomenon. Many asians think the same about blacks or caucasians, which is why they usually use asian actors themself when they make a movie (or indian moviemakers using indian staff when adapting western material).
I am of course aware that this is anecdotal evidence at best, I have no idea how the majority of western movie goers think. I can however understand why they would use more western orientated actors in Hollywood.
 

Paradoxrifts

New member
Jan 17, 2010
917
0
0
If they were just going to hire one of Hollywood's most bankable female actresses to play the lead role, I just don't see how it was even necessary to involve the intellectual property of Ghost In The Shell in the first place. They could've easily developed an original intellectual property in the cyberpunk genre around Scarlet's star power.
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
0
0
azriel2422 said:
Aggieknight said:
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?

I ask because Scarlett, besides being extremely hot, looks a heck of a lot like Motoko. Ergo the casting makes sense to me.

Hollywood does have a problem with whitewashing, for example - the recent Exodus and Noah movies, but I don't see this as a case.
What he said.
Friendly advice here, you should add more to your post if you want to avoid a mod warning for low content. They don't take kindly to posts that are just a "thumbs up." Cheers!
 

Verlander

New member
Apr 22, 2010
2,449
0
0
Vicious cycle. American consumers don't buy into ethnic leads as much as homegrown ones, so films don't cast them, so Americans continue to not want them, so Hollywood continues not to cast them.

The trick is for either the consumer demand to change via an outside influence, or for film studios or risk loosing money initially to broaden the scope of their content.
 

Callate

New member
Dec 5, 2008
5,118
0
0
Having spent a significant amount of money on licensing a notable and popular franchise, with the promise of a hefty budget for special effects and advertisement, why wouldn't a studio shoulder the risk of casting a lead no one has ever heard of for the opportunity to self-immolate to gratify someone else's sense of right and wrong?

That doesn't smack of picking an unproductive fight for symbolic reasons at all.
 

psijac

$20 a year for this message
Nov 20, 2008
281
0
0
I am upset that the Major is not actually played by a male to female transgender lesbian.
 

MrMan999

New member
Oct 25, 2011
228
0
0
psijac said:
I am upset that the Major is not actually played by a male to female transgender lesbian.
Wait what. I am an avid reader of the Manga and I have the series and the movies on DVD. And I have never heard about the Major being transgender.
 

elvor0

New member
Sep 8, 2008
2,320
0
0
P-89 Scorpion said:
Japan the 8th most populated country in the world (were 98.5% are Japanese) is a minority LOL.
There are lots of black and hispanic people too. We still call them minorities because it's minority representation, not how many of them exist"LOL" That and we're talking about Hollywood which is in America, not Japan "LOL"
 

theNater

New member
Feb 11, 2011
227
0
0
Abomination said:
theNater said:
Jake Martinez said:
"What ratios of representation should we have in films?"
Something in the neighborhood of what the ratios are in the population at large.
In the context of the setting of the media.
Jake Martinez said:
"How should we decide or deduce what these ratios are?"
By looking at census data(for the population at large), and tracking similar data in films.
In the context of the setting of the media.
Yes, of course.
Abomination said:
Jake Martinez said:
"Who should be the people to be in charge of deciding this?"
Society at large. This is a social issue, and so should be handled socially. Organizations focused on particular demographic groups should be tracking representation of their group, and mentioning it publicly when things seem out of whack.
Socially run companies are known as the government. Do you really want the government to run entertainment?
The NAACP should be making a fuss when colored people are underrepresented. The NOW should be making a fuss when women are underrepresented. And so on. The government doesn't need to get involved at all.
Abomination said:
Jake Martinez said:
"How do you enforce some system like this?"
Social pressure. Mostly just asking representatives of those studios which have screwy representation "what's up with that?" every time you talk to them, and occasionally saying "good job" to those with good representation.
I prefer to buy media I like, not media I find meets someone else's social criteria.
My suggestion does not involve you changing your buying habits in any way.
Abomination said:
Jake Martinez said:
"Does this change over time? How do we change this?"
Hiring practices. If things are massively out of whack, it's reasonable to assume there's some unconscious bias in the hiring process. Deliberately engage in preferential hiring to counter that unconscious bias until you're in the right neighborhood.
Which will soon be overturned by those who were not hired due to their demographic rather than their merit. You would be engaging in genuine discrimination in an effort to counter it. You would be creating victims to replace victims at a 1:1 ratio.
So, not causing any new problems, and making the media look like the real world it represents? Sounds good to me.
Abomination said:
Jake Martinez said:
"What happens if you just really want to make a character that is of a race/gender that is already over represented?"
Then you ask yourself why you want that character to be that race/gender. If there is some significant story/characterization reason, then you go ahead regardless. Otherwise, you change it.
I'm not about to dictate the story someone else wishes to create because it doesn't fit my world view.
Neither am I. I explicitly said that if the story relies on the race or gender of the character, then they shouldn't change the race or gender of the character. However, if the story doesn't rely on the race or gender of the character, they can tell the same story with a character of a less well-represented race or gender.
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
0
0
Verlander said:
Vicious cycle. American consumers don't buy into ethnic leads as much as homegrown ones, so films don't cast them, so Americans continue to not want them, so Hollywood continues not to cast them.

The trick is for either the consumer demand to change via an outside influence, or for film studios or risk loosing money initially to broaden the scope of their content.
I can agree with your sentiment here but I"m not sure that's the whole story. One of the things I see in these discussions is the idea that one of the biggest reasons more minority leads are needed is to give minority audiences someone to relate to. Conversely, it is often stated that white people should be able to relate to minority leads because race is such a minor part of a character and it is the story that's important/relatable. I'm not sure how these two conflicting ideas hold up.

It is perhaps true that people have an easier time relating to a character of their same race/ethnic background. If so, that would explain why having successful movies with minority leads seems difficult. On the other hand, if the race of the character/actor doesn't matter, because it's their story that we relate to, then this reasoning behind why we need more minority leads does not hold up.

If the circular issue you present is true and represents the real problem, then the question becomes how do we fix it? Is Hollywood under an ethical obligation to create movies for specific demographics? Are white people under an ethical obligation to demand more movies be made for non-white people?

None of my questions here are meant to be loaded; I am as unclear on these questions as anyone I think. I tend to lean toward the belief that these are not ethical issues though and that representation isn't something people are entitled to in media. If I moved to Japan, I do not feel anyone there owes me a movie or manga starring a white person. But then I am just one man. It seems these things are not simple.
 

Newway12

New member
Oct 21, 2014
31
0
0
Excuses excuses. Last Airbender was intentionally white washed, when they were casting and they deliberately made a point of looking for white actors. And this film is no different. Hollywood needs to realize that it?s not the 1950's anymore, or even the 1980's for that matter. Racial issues are in the zeitgeist right now and this kind of ethnic hand waiving is going to get noticed. You say that there aren't enough Asian actors that are box office draws, well why is that? Los Angeles has one of the largest Asian populations in the country. Hong Kong and Japan both have hundreds of actors that could make the jump to Hollywood. If there aren't any Asian actors that are box office, it?s because of lack of effort on the studios part. It further compounded by the fact that Hollywood claims that they are trying to break into Asian markets. Well if you?re trying to break into Asian markets maybe you should hire more Asian talent.
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
0
0
theNater said:
Neither am I. I explicitly said that if the story relies on the race or gender of the character, then they shouldn't change the race or gender of the character. However, if the story doesn't rely on the race or gender of the character, they can tell the same story with a character of a less well-represented race or gender.
Surely they can but do you believe they should be obliged to do so? You seem to suggest they are or should be under an obligation to provide representation in specific amounts that relate to census information. That at least heavily implies that you think they are ethically responsible for the creation of specific content for a demographic. How far does this presumed obligation extend? Are they also ethically responsible for the creation of content that reflects ethnicity? Creed? Religion? Does this obligation stop at our borders or do they have an obligation to their international audience as well?

I agree with your suggested methods by the way, even if I think I am unlikely to agree with your ends.
 

Verlander

New member
Apr 22, 2010
2,449
0
0
Gorrath said:
I can agree with your sentiment here but I"m not sure that's the whole story. One of the things I see in these discussions is the idea that one of the biggest reasons more minority leads are needed is to give minority audiences someone to relate to. Conversely, it is often stated that white people should be able to relate to minority leads because race is such a minor part of a character and it is the story that's important/relatable. I'm not sure how these two conflicting ideas hold up.

It is perhaps true that people have an easier time relating to a character of their same race/ethnic background. If so, that would explain why having successful movies with minority leads seems difficult. On the other hand, if the race of the character/actor doesn't matter, because it's their story that we relate to, then this reasoning behind why we need more minority leads does not hold up.

If the circular issue you present is true and represents the real problem, then the question becomes how do we fix it? Is Hollywood under an ethical obligation to create movies for specific demographics? Are white people under an ethical obligation to demand more movies be made for non-white people?

None of my questions here are meant to be loaded; I am as unclear on these questions as anyone I think. I tend to lean toward the belief that these are not ethical issues though and that representation isn't something people are entitled to in media. If I moved to Japan, I do not feel anyone there owes me a movie or manga starring a white person. But then I am just one man. It seems these things are not simple.
That's a pretty awesome point. My only take on the apparent hypocrisy is that (particularly in adaptations) white characters tend to be written better, and more numerous, and thus are good opportunities to inject actors of varying ethnic backgrounds. Meanwhile, strong ethnic characters are too rare to waste on white actors that don't need to exposure or work.

That's not to say that I always agree with it, nor do I agree that every outrage following a "blackwash" is racist - I opposed making Johnny Storm and Heimdal in Thor black, on the grounds that it's a token gesture - there are plenty of strong, black characters that Marvel could and should be developing instead. By contrast, I'm completely fine with James Bond being black, as there's no real alternative, and the previous actors that have played him haven't fit the original description of the character anyway.
 

Techno Squidgy

New member
Nov 23, 2010
1,045
0
0
midgetspoot said:
But for better or worse this is the movie BUISNESS after all. So the bottom line wins.
With a small change to your statement I have revealed an attitude that contributes a great deal to what is wrong with the modern western world.

OT: I don't know how I feel about this, probably because whatever feelings I do have for this are rather minor. I don't trust the live adaptation to be faithful to the source material in anything but the most superficial aspect, so it doesn't really bother me who the actress is. Yeah, it'd be nice to have an Asian lead (assuming that the setting remains in Japan and Section 9 are still a Japanese organisation), but I get it, Hollywood doesn't think American audiences will be as interested in the film if it starred an Asian lead as they would if it stars an American lead. I don't have any data to go on, and I by no means have my finger on the pulse of America but surely American audience's would be fine with an Asian-American lead? I can't say I'm too clued up on the demographics of America, but I imagine there must be some quality actresses out there that would fit the part and could probably do with some exposure.

I had a brief look to see if I could find out where it would be set, but I couldn't find anything and got bored, so for now I really have little interest in this version of GitS.
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
0
0
Verlander said:
That's a pretty awesome point. My only take on the apparent hypocrisy is that (particularly in adaptations) white characters tend to be written better, and more numerous, and thus are good opportunities to inject actors of varying ethnic backgrounds. Meanwhile, strong ethnic characters are too rare to waste on white actors that don't need to exposure or work.

That's not to say that I always agree with it, nor do I agree that every outrage following a "blackwash" is racist - I opposed making Johnny Storm and Heimdal in Thor black, on the grounds that it's a token gesture - there are plenty of strong, black characters that Marvel could and should be developing instead. By contrast, I'm completely fine with James Bond being black, as there's no real alternative, and the previous actors that have played him haven't fit the original description of the character anyway.
I don't know if I can say that white characters tend to be written better or not. I do see that there are lots of pretty bad roles reserved for minority actors. But then, there are lots of these same kinds of shitty roles for white actors too. White actors have a broader range of roles they get to play, though this is contingent on who they are as people far more than on what their skin color is. I would agree that artistically, there are not enough movies which focus on minority characters or have minorities in lead roles. But Just as with women in video games or X group in Y media, I don't take this to be an ethical issue.

I don't tend to care much for arguments that treat people like they are part of a racial hegemony. While one can say that there are plenty of white actors and some of them make plenty of money, there are still tons more white actors that are very talented and have no success at all. Speaking about these issues in a way that treats those actors as part of the "white actor, must be doing great" group is unjustified.

I don't mind racial changes to characters except when there's a claim to historicity involved. Heimdall being black didn't matter to me at all because the actor knocked the freakin' role out of the park. In my opinion, Heimdall was the best thing in Thor and that was due to the fact that Idris Elba is phenomenal. Likewise, I don't care about Johnny Storm being black either. Yet I would certainly take issue with Storm being cast as a white woman because her ethnicity is such a potent part of who her character is. I would have no problem with 007 being black either. So, a lot of this comes down to our personal hangups and interpretations and that being said, should be a matter for artistic criticism not the realm of social justice. That's my 2 cents anyhow. Cheers!
 

Adaephon

New member
Jun 15, 2009
126
0
0
One thing this kind of debate always makes me wonder is just how many shades does this issue have? What I mean is a lot of people wanted Rinko Kikuchi to play this part but since we have no reason (that I know of anyways) to believe that she wanted to do the part or even tried to audition for it a few other names have been dropped and those have been mostly Chinese or Korean (or Chinese-American, Korean-American, etc.) actresses whereas Kikuchi was (according to Wikipedia) born and raised in Japan. So what I'm asking is do people think any Asian is "close enough" to play a Japanese role? There's still a fairly serious debate if the half-Indian Ben Kingsley was "Indian enough" to play Gandhi and I personally (/anecdotally) know a fair number of people who were up in arms when the African-American Morgan Freeman played the Xhosa Nelson Mandela (since, to many South Africans and probably other Africans as well, African Americans aren't "African enough" to call themselves as such because they are "too White," "too Americanized," etc.)

Obviously the bigger issue here is White casting vs. Non-White casting in Western Film-making/Hollywood rather than the issues of shades of ethnicity and nationality, but I still think it is somewhat important to look at the non-western audiences for these movies. I mean probably if Grace Park (a very talented Canadian-American-Korean actress) was cast that would probably be good, or even great for most Canadian-American-European audiences but would that be more or less controversial in Korea or Japan than Scarlet would be? Or what if someone even cast an actress who was non-white and non-East-Asian like Halle Barry? Would that be super controversial? What if it was a historically oppressed or discriminated nationality, like a White English actor playing a White Irish character or an ethnically Japanese actor playing an ethnically Chinese character?

So I guess what I'm asking in that rambling mess above is how specific to character do people want adaptations to be done? Is simply looking similar enough or do they have to be the same ethnicity, the same nationality, the same language, how precise do most people want it to be?
 

Sehnsucht Engel

New member
Apr 18, 2009
1,890
0
0
I mostly agree. I also find it offensive to me as a fan of Ghost in the shell. I've never thought of Scarlett Johansson as anything else than a mediocre actress, and I don't want Hollywood to ruin Gits just for money. I doubt any of the fans asked for this or even wanted it. Ghost in the shell is already great in the anime versions. There's no need for a live action adaptation. Even if there was, the fact that Hollywood is making it instead of a film company in Japan is disturbing.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
i suppose i'm the only one who sees the casting of "smack talking" Johnny Storm as a black man as potentially actually quite offensive cinematic cliché/trope/stereotype indulging...
 

Ihateregistering1

New member
Mar 30, 2011
2,034
0
0
Adaephon said:
One thing this kind of debate always makes me wonder is just how many shades does this issue have? What I mean is a lot of people wanted Rinko Kikuchi to play this part but since we have no reason (that I know of anyways) to believe that she wanted to do the part or even tried to audition for it a few other names have been dropped and those have been mostly Chinese or Korean (or Chinese-American, Korean-American, etc.) actresses whereas Kikuchi was (according to Wikipedia) born and raised in Japan. So what I'm asking is do people think any Asian is "close enough" to play a Japanese role? There's still a fairly serious debate if the half-Indian Ben Kingsley was "Indian enough" to play Gandhi and I personally (/anecdotally) know a fair number of people who were up in arms when the African-American Morgan Freeman played the Xhosa Nelson Mandela (since, to many South Africans and probably other Africans as well, African Americans aren't "African enough" to call themselves as such because they are "too White," "too Americanized," etc.)
Thank you. I've always wondered this: if they were to make a movie about Storm (the X-men character), who would you rather have play Storm (assume these were your only two choices and the other X-Men films were never made)?:
-Charlize Theron (who was born in South Africa)
-Gabrielle Union (born in Omaha, Nebraska)

I mean, technically, if we're aiming for "character authenticity", then isn't the white woman who was actually born in Africa "more African" than the black woman who was born in the US, and thus a better fit for the character?

Moviebob brought up a good point once (I can't believe I just typed that) when he was talking about the "Prince of Persia" movie. People were complaining because they cast Jake Gyllenhaal as a Persian, but no one was complaining about them casting Ben Kingsley as one, even though Gyllenhaal is half-Jewish and thus "more middle-eastern" than Kingsley.

In other words, so much of this talk of "whitewashing" or "changing the character's race" is based on outdated concepts of "oh people from here are SUPPOSED to look like this", which is some 19th century type thinking. If we're truly living in a globalized world, then the concept of race having an automatic and necessary attachment to geographical location needs to go the way of the dodo.
 

theNater

New member
Feb 11, 2011
227
0
0
Gorrath said:
Surely they can but do you believe they should be obliged to do so? You seem to suggest they are or should be under an obligation to provide representation in specific amounts that relate to census information. That at least heavily implies that you think they are ethically responsible for the creation of specific content for a demographic. How far does this presumed obligation extend? Are they also ethically responsible for the creation of content that reflects ethnicity? Creed? Religion? Does this obligation stop at our borders or do they have an obligation to their international audience as well?
I do think there is an obligation there, but it's a social obligation, rather than an ethical one. It's on the order of saying "please" and "thank you". It is appropriate social behavior, and (I believe) a reasonable expectation.

However, they are not obligated to monitor themselves. Monitoring is the role of their audience. When their audience says "hey, we've noticed that this group is underrepresented in your work", that's when the author's obligation kicks in. At that point, they should monitor their representation of that group until it is represented to a degree they believe is adequate. After that, they return monitoring duties to the audience, and simply try to be mindful of the group as they create in the future. If the audience still believes the group is underrepresented, or if representation drops again, they inform the author and the cycle begins anew.

If the author and the audience disagree with the level of representation that is adequate, the author should clearly indicate their position and the reasoning behind it, and the audience can choose whether they wish to remain an audience of someone who takes that position for those reasons.
 

dystopiaINC

New member
Aug 13, 2010
498
0
0
NiPah said:
The only good thing about this movie is how much money it's pouring into the pockets of Masamune Shirow.
This will go about as well as Edge of Tomorrow (which I hear is actually pretty good but failed horribly).
huh I thought Edge of Tomorrow was a pretty decent movie. I Wonder why it flopped.

OT: Really? This is an issue? They want an A-list headline female lead and they chose the biggest action movie female star at the moment. That really all this is. it's a marketing choice.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
Two things, 1, the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media? BwahahahahHahhahhHHhbHhB.

2. The way minorities are counted in the study is effectively self reported. Since "everybody knows" white actors/actresses get the better parts, plenty of them pass as white on their portfolios.
 

Qvar

OBJECTION!
Aug 25, 2013
387
0
0
So if I understand this correctly, Thor can be made female, but Motoko white? Hell no, that would be racism.
 

Abomination

New member
Dec 17, 2012
2,939
0
0
Qvar said:
So if I understand this correctly, Thor can be made female, but Motoko white? Hell no, that would be racism.
It's only racist if a white person replaces a non-white person and it's only sexist if a man replaces a woman.

That's, essentially, the bottom line here. Certainly, there's a slew of historical justifications for this phenomenon but when we get down to brass tacks: you can't be racist towards white people and you can't be sexist towards men in the film industry.
 

roseofbattle

News Room Contributor
Apr 18, 2011
2,306
0
0
is Scarlett Johanson even cast as the major?

this could be an entirely different character. or just 'the major' as an american with an all american police unit set in the states.

I think people are preemptively getting offended over potentially nothing at all.

I mean, cmon, the basic premise of ghost in the shell is H+ near future where there is a much needed special elite police unit to deal with entire new classes of criminals created by transhumanism and advancing technology. nothing remotely strictly japanese about this.
 

Paragon Fury

The Loud Shadow
Jan 23, 2009
5,161
0
0
MrMan999 said:
psijac said:
I am upset that the Major is not actually played by a male to female transgender lesbian.
Wait what. I am an avid reader of the Manga and I have the series and the movies on DVD. And I have never heard about the Major being transgender.
She isn't. I have a friend (who is trans) who was semi-adamant about this too, but its a badly-thought out and doesn't have any support.

In all versions of the Major's backstory, she is a young girl who is involved in a tragic accident that requires her to get a full prosthetic body. She goes on to serve in the military/police (where she gets progressively better and better bodies and learns most of her skills) before joining Section 8.

Some details varying from telling to telling, but the basics are always the same. The confusion I believe stems mostly from the Stand Alone Complex version, where there is ALSO a young boy involved who gets a prosthetic body. The boy is better at controlling his body than she is and he makes the origami cranes that Motoko is seen with (and are used as symbols in the series). She can't make them herself and resolves to become better at controlling her body so she can make cranes for the boy too. Then the rest of the series goes on, etc. (And we eventually see that the Major has mastered making the cranes as well).

Also, the Major is never "lesbian" in the sense meant here. She is always depicted as heterosexual or bisexual (sometimes aggressively so), but never homosexual. Not surprising, given the proclivities of the series creator.
 

Rellik San

New member
Feb 3, 2011
609
0
0
Paragon Fury said:
Also, the Major is never "lesbian" in the sense meant here. She is always depicted as heterosexual or bisexual (sometimes aggressively so), but never homosexual. Not surprising, given the proclivities of the series creator.
I thought she appeared mostly A-Sexual save that one... FULL COLOUR SECTION of the Manga in which she's included in a Lesbian Orgy. That said an argument could be made that being augmetic, she's simply fulfilling what the job needs, which would be in line with her character.
 

mecegirl

New member
May 19, 2013
737
0
0
valium said:
erttheking said:
valium said:
erttheking said:
valium said:
erttheking said:
For example, in the Hunger Games book, Katniss was described as having olive skin. The casting for her character flat out called for "should be Caucasian, between ages 15 and 20, who could portray someone ?underfed but strong,? and ?naturally pretty underneath her tomboyishness."
as someone from a family with a lot of white people with olive skin, I fail to see your point exactly. unaware a lot of people in the united states are descended from european immigrants?
Simple really.

The person that they got to play Katniss in the movie wasn't olive skinned. They decided that was too dark and wanted someone with lighter skin.

Frankly it's kind of sad considering that olive skin can hardly be noticed and Hollywood declared that Hunger Games need "white" white people.

Hollywood is frankly just pathetic.

Doesn't help that on the Fitzpatrick scale, olive skinned falls under "Moderately brown."
so the best actor they found to play the character was not the right kind of white person? is that what you are implying?
No, because really olive skinned isn't white. I checked and it turns out that people with olive skin tend to live in Latin America. In other words, they're Latino. They got a white actor to play a Latino character, or at least someone with the same shade of skin as a Latino character.

http://www.google.com/books?id=fewKcicENJYC&pg=PA234&dq=olive+skin+mediterranean&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GUHYU5_mA4aOyAT7rYEo&ved=0CCEQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=olive%20skin%20mediterranean&f=false

EDIT: Could also be Mediterranean.
and a lot of those who live in the mediterranean area can be considered white. such as southern france in the pyrenees, where my mother's side of the family comes from, or towards the italian border. olive skinned white people. also a lot of white people mixed with native American which comes out to olive skin in the appalachian mountains general area. I come from both.
The olive skin tone is perhaps the most neutral skin tone on earth. Its in the middle of the color spectrum for skintones. Damn near any ethnicity can be some shade of olive. Darker White people can be olive. Lighter Black people can be olive. Mid range Asian(all of Asia, from china to India) people can be olive. So can Native American, Middle Eastern, and Latino people. A woman of any race could have been casted as Katniss, there was no need to limit the casting call to White actresses.


OT:
I'm happy in a dodged a bullet sort of way that an Asian actress wasn't casted. These adaptation's tend to suck. And as far as hypocrisy is concerned. It's disingenuous to point to what happens with Black actors and use it to justify the lack of opportunity for Asian actors. Its hard enough for black actors to find work that isn't stereotypical, which is why race swapping is so common. But its even worse for actors of color who are not Black. Much, much, worse for actors of color who are not Black. At least a black actor can count on getting a supporting and or token role here and there. Asian actors don't have that opportunity as often, especially on the big screen.

Just using the recent Marvel movies as an example. For Black actors the only role that will be a single lead role will be the Black Panther movie. There are plenty of Black characters to choose from, and honestly BP's movie should have happened years ago, but at least its happening now. Outside of that there are the supporting characters. Nick Fury, who isn't even a race swap. It makes me want to smack people whenever someone says he's a race swap. He is black in the Ultimate universe and the movies are sure as hell not following either Marvel universe faithfully, so bitching about Fury not looking like Hasselhoff is a joke. Then there are the other supporting characters. War Machine/Iron Patriot, The Falcon, I think there was a random black commando in the first Capt. movie. Heimdall, the only chracter that was truly race swapped. The only Black female actress is Saldana, but she doesn't play a black female chracter but a green one. Similarly with Honsou, he hasn't been painted an unnatural skin color but he's an alien not a human.

Going outside of Marvel/Disney. If not for the race swapping in the new Fantastic Four the entire cast would be white, so that counts as a joint leading role. They they royally botched Storm and had Angel turn against X-Men. Fucking Darwin dies. DARWIN, a chracter that has both teleported and turned into pure energy in the comics to avoid death...was blown up. Uhhh Robbie from the Spider man. And Electro from Spiderman who was racebent. And of course Blade.

Did I forget anyone? Probably(I should Google a list instead of relying on my memory). But look at the list of Black characters, there is one to each movie in general. Two on a few occasions where Nick Fury does a cross over appearance. Two for Days of future past, and one dies in the dumbest way possible. Two for the future fantastic four movie and we will see if papa Storm dies. Three for the very first Blade because the love interest was a Black woman(don't know why she doesn't appear in future movies), and his mom was a villain. I guess I can say four? There was the little black girl vampire who gets killed. The other Blade movies, if they do feature black people outside of Blade, are bit parts.

Out of all of that I'd say three have lead roles. The rest are supporting roles. And that's better than it could be for Black actors (not at all for actresses). But what about Asian characters. I think there is Hogun from Thor, and the random Asian commando from the first Capt. Movie. Uhh then Blink from X-men, and Blink was racebent. I don't remember any Latino, Middle Eastern...damn much of anything else. Ben Kingsly since he biracial I guess? I mean wooooo one for the team right?

Its not that every movie needs to have some rainbow casting or at least one of each ethnicity. But you'd think that every once and a while there would be a movie with more diversity than a white female and a single black guy. Or even a movie that isn't stereotypical with a cast devoid of any white people at all(like this movie could be. Set it in California,a state with a pretty hefty Asian population, and a majority Asian cast would be more than possible). Not just among Marvel films but all movies from Hollywood. It's not like its unusual for there to be movies without any poc in them.

Still, there could be more white female leads in movies, there could be more black male leads in movies, but the fight for those roles has already begun and has made some headway. Everyone else is left in the dust. Which is why when something like this happens folks pay attention. I mean...outside of Pacific Rim two when is the next time that a Asian female actress is going to get a lead part? And what about the supporting roles? They don't even routinely get casted for supporting roles in films like Black men do, but folks want to use Black men as some universal standard? The numbers just don't add up for that comparison to hold any water.
 

UberGott

New member
Feb 20, 2014
69
0
0
Rambling coming. Sorry, no turning it off now.

Not quite on target, but geez, every time Dragon Ball Evolution gets brought up all I can do is shake my head. First because it's god-awful, but then because the argument about "White Goku = Muh Cultural Appropriation" is about as short-sighted as claiming that Kurosawa's Ran is an insult to King Lear. Does anyone who uses that as an example even bother doing a head-count? Five of the main cast members are Asian actors, only one of whom is a particularly established name (Chow Yun-Fat). The director is Asian, as well, for what that's worth.

Plus, the two main characters are - canonically speaking, at least - literal aliens from outer space. One of them spends the entire movie in... screw it, let's call it "greenface". They also changed his outfit to avoid looking like a historical Persian stereotype, because if there's one thing creator Akira Toriyama's really good at, it's extremely shallow stereotypes - see Mr. Popo, Mr. Satan and Tao Pai-Pai for a handful of obvious examples. I don't think they're malicious, mind you, just pretty far outside what would be considered racially or culturally sensitive.

Yes, the "main" character in DBE was a generic white kid - so what? We've already seen what an all-Asian version of Dragon Ball looks like, because Taiwan made a movie called Dragon Ball: The Magic Begins in 1991. It's an unlicensed adaptation, but that's... pretty common with non-Japanese East Asian anime and adaptations from the early 90s. (As for the movie itself? Let's just say Goku being played by an Asian doesn't fix much. I won't deny that it has a certain Power Rangers level lo-fi charm, but calling it "good" would be a stretch...)

Back to Ghost in the Shell. Honest question to Carly here: Have you read the original Masamune Shirow comics, or just seen the Mamoru Oshii movie adaptation? Because [INSERT SPOILER WARNING HERE] while the movie ends with Motoko's body being "replaced" with essentially a younger version of herself, the manga ends with Motoko being inserted into a male shell - much to the shock of Batou, who simply grabbed what he could. The very DNA - and in fact the whole bloody point of the Puppet Master storyline featured in the '95 film - is to question the notion of "self" in a world where one's self is simply a consciousness that can be placed into any shell, even an inhuman one, or a consciousness that has no body to claim as its own.[/DONE SPOILING NOW, PROBABLY]

Basically, the origins of the character are fuzzy enough that she could be anyone, and the core idea of the franchise - particularly the Stand Alone Complex TV series - is that the notion of "identity" aren't as clear-cut as society seems to think of them when the possibility of changing bodies becomes possible. The Oshii film suggests she actively doesn't care about her body, and a big element of the film - which is substantially less at the forefront of the other versions, as I remember it - is that she seems to have fallen out of touch with seeing the body she's in as "herself". In short, Motoko can look like anyone, and has proven she no qualms about using a separate body to accomplish her goals. Scarlett Johansen being cast isn't an issue because she's Caucasian, because the racial identity of an isolated consciousness isn't inherently tied to the strands of its DNA that dictated its skin color.

Mind you, this doesn't always work. Akira - at a meta level, at least - is a frustrated reflection of the societal shock that happened to Japan after the end of WWII, and specifically the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Randomly setting that in "New New York" or whatever changes a lot of the political and cultural baggage that's inert to the whole point of the story, that the 'end of the world' is only as good or as bad as those who find themselves left behind choose to make it. Could you recontextualize that for a Western palette? I guess so, but that would basically undermine the whole point, unless you really think spending a fortune on the rights to the badass red bike and pill-jacket combo are worth the price.

This discussion swings both ways, too - even if the "more minorities = more diversity" argument is brought up, particularly when, as others have already pointed out, several groups are over-represented by a pretty wide margin. (Not that I care either way, just stating facts as they exist.) The upcoming Japanese movies based on Attack on Titan take place in a world that's inspired by Germanic folklore, and there's an in-universe discussion about how Mikasa Ackerman is presumed to be the last ethnic (half) Asian in existence. So, what does the movie do? Creates a new cast of similar archetypes in a different part of the universe that are all ethnically Japanese. Problem solved, right? Sure... except for the fact that Eren Jaeger and Armin Armout show up. These are characters who are explicitly stated to be non-Asian, and are, naturally, played by Japanese actors with blonde hair. Because that isn't stupid or anything...

So, you want to talk about casting Asians and setting the story in Japan when it's Akira? You've probably got a solid point. You want to bring it up in GITS? Not really seeing the problem here. I mean, yes, there could be huge problems, but setting it in Washington, or France, or Belize wouldn't be the inherent stumbling block for this particular project.

Besides, if the only stipulation is that an actor be "Asian", that's kind of... well, it's just a little weird to me. It made sense before I watched a lot of Asian films - Japanese, Korean, Thai, Hong Kong - and realized just how different Asian films can be, linguistically and culturally. But if the argument is solely down to looking the part, Japanese and Korean features tend to be pretty similar, but Thai and Malaysian look quite a bit different. What about someone like Keanu Reeves - Theodore Logan is half Hawaiian-Chinese. Does he qualify as "Asian Enough" for movies like 47 Ronin? And should we give Valkyrie guff for casting a non-German as a Nazi? Or is getting cultures miss-matched okay so long as they're all still white... I'm not a terribly PC person, I suppose, so the whole thing confuses me.

(For the record, I could care less that Idris Alba is a Norse God. No, it doesn't make much sense for a seemingly otherwise mono-ethnic race of aliens whom inspired the images of Norse mythology to have one black guy... but dude. He's Idris F'ing Alba. Cast him as Christ next time, please.)

But the bigger issue here is that there's simply no Asian-American actresses worth banking an entire production on. You could grab one of the successful actresses from Asia - Ziyi Zhang and Michelle Yeoh might have a little star power in Hollywood at this point, but outside of Rinko Kikuchi I can't think of a single Japanese actress that could draw a non-Japanese audience by recognition alone. And let's not forget that for how friggin' amazing Pacific Rim was, it under-performed at the US box office. The only Asian-American actress I can think of with any level of legit mainstream appeal is Lucy Liu, and that was... quite a while ago, now that I think of it. Are Asian actors in Hollywood denied better roles because there isn't a market for them? You bet. How do you fix that short of mandatory affirmative-action style quotas, which are obviously BS? I don't really know. Popular Asian actors exist in Asia, but even then, they rarely get the sort of cross-over appeal when they come to Hollywood. Can anyone name one Asian actor with a notable presence in the last 15 years or so? I'm legitimately curious, because short of going for Ziyi Zhang or Tony Jaa (who's not even an actor!), I can't think of any off the top of my head.

And just to remind people that "cyberpunk" is still pretty niche, the closest film to GITS in recent memory - Automata - basically got crapped out straight to on-demand. And that was with Antonio Banderas in the lead. Again, not 1995 Antonio Banderas, but if this project put even a bankable Asian actress in the lead, I would assume it'd get the same sort of promotion.

For the record, the only actress I'd have picked for this role is Noomi Rapace. She could do the "dead eyes, agressive body language" thing Oshii perfected in her sleep. I have nothing against Scarlett, but about all I've seen her in is The Avengers and Lucy, neither of which make a particular case for the cold, detached personality required (unless they want to go back to the smarmy, pulpy tone of Shirow's books, which seems doubtful). That said, I've heard nothing but good things about her in Under the Skin, so it's entirely possible she could surprise me for the better under proper direction.

Make no mistake, I'm expecting I'll hate this movie's guts - assuming it even happens. But in this particular case, the fact that a pretty white lady is playing a pretty Japanese-named cyborg is the least of my worries.
 

RavingSturm

New member
May 21, 2014
172
0
0
Imho the casting choice is more of a business decision. Its same reason a crappy movie like WWarz made

money based on the lead actor's following, recognizabilty , charisma etc. Actors can be of any ethnicity

and degree of talent but I think the abilty to get people's butts in the seat is what counts the most for

the producers.
 

Kameburger

Turtle king
Apr 7, 2012
574
0
0
Trishbot said:
You know who I think would be awesome in the role, but Hollywood won't go with her for "reasons"?
Pacific Rim's Rinko Kikuchi.

(No! Don't! It makes TOO much sense!)
They wouldn't go for her because, one her English is not that great and 2 and because in Asia she is not considered as "beautiful" as probably would be expected of a leading lady.

To this article
Actually and this has been said over and over again on this and every other serious discussion of the subject. Now that Asia is a bigger market Hollywood movies are often made to cater to them. White actors make Hollywood movies more "exotic." We know what this is and Carley Smith is exploiting our outrage like all news sites these days do to make money. She, along with the escapist, are writing articles that should touch a nerve regardless of who reads them. It's been a strong strategy for Fox News and MSNBC alike and we should only be disapointed that game and entertainment journalism expects so little of us as it provides us the same. Never the less it's her opinion, and I respect her write to it and fair enough it gets views for the escapist. That being said I have no respect any more for articles that exploit a knee jerk reaction from their users many of whole want to ESCAPE from the stresses of the everyday world to begin with.

So no Carley I had a lovely day today, i will continue to enjoy it. I am not outraged.
 

mecegirl

New member
May 19, 2013
737
0
0
Ihateregistering1 said:
Adaephon said:
One thing this kind of debate always makes me wonder is just how many shades does this issue have? What I mean is a lot of people wanted Rinko Kikuchi to play this part but since we have no reason (that I know of anyways) to believe that she wanted to do the part or even tried to audition for it a few other names have been dropped and those have been mostly Chinese or Korean (or Chinese-American, Korean-American, etc.) actresses whereas Kikuchi was (according to Wikipedia) born and raised in Japan. So what I'm asking is do people think any Asian is "close enough" to play a Japanese role? There's still a fairly serious debate if the half-Indian Ben Kingsley was "Indian enough" to play Gandhi and I personally (/anecdotally) know a fair number of people who were up in arms when the African-American Morgan Freeman played the Xhosa Nelson Mandela (since, to many South Africans and probably other Africans as well, African Americans aren't "African enough" to call themselves as such because they are "too White," "too Americanized," etc.)
Thank you. I've always wondered this: if they were to make a movie about Storm (the X-men character), who would you rather have play Storm (assume these were your only two choices and the other X-Men films were never made)?:
-Charlize Theron (who was born in South Africa)
-Gabrielle Union (born in Omaha, Nebraska)

I mean, technically, if we're aiming for "character authenticity", then isn't the white woman who was actually born in Africa "more African" than the black woman who was born in the US, and thus a better fit for the character?

Moviebob brought up a good point once (I can't believe I just typed that) when he was talking about the "Prince of Persia" movie. People were complaining because they cast Jake Gyllenhaal as a Persian, but no one was complaining about them casting Ben Kingsley as one, even though Gyllenhaal is half-Jewish and thus "more middle-eastern" than Kingsley.

In other words, so much of this talk of "whitewashing" or "changing the character's race" is based on outdated concepts of "oh people from here are SUPPOSED to look like this", which is some 19th century type thinking. If we're truly living in a globalized world, then the concept of race having an automatic and necessary attachment to geographical location needs to go the way of the dodo.
No no no no no. Storm's mother is from Kenya. Her father is African American. So no its not more accurate to have a White woman play her....ugh. It would be more accurate to have an African American woman play her because of her father.

Beyond all that we never play such games when it comes to white chracters. There are White actors from Australia and England and Scotland that play American parts. Would it be more accurate if, say, an Asian American played those parts?
 

Ihateregistering1

New member
Mar 30, 2011
2,034
0
0
mecegirl said:
Ihateregistering1 said:
Adaephon said:
One thing this kind of debate always makes me wonder is just how many shades does this issue have? What I mean is a lot of people wanted Rinko Kikuchi to play this part but since we have no reason (that I know of anyways) to believe that she wanted to do the part or even tried to audition for it a few other names have been dropped and those have been mostly Chinese or Korean (or Chinese-American, Korean-American, etc.) actresses whereas Kikuchi was (according to Wikipedia) born and raised in Japan. So what I'm asking is do people think any Asian is "close enough" to play a Japanese role? There's still a fairly serious debate if the half-Indian Ben Kingsley was "Indian enough" to play Gandhi and I personally (/anecdotally) know a fair number of people who were up in arms when the African-American Morgan Freeman played the Xhosa Nelson Mandela (since, to many South Africans and probably other Africans as well, African Americans aren't "African enough" to call themselves as such because they are "too White," "too Americanized," etc.)
Thank you. I've always wondered this: if they were to make a movie about Storm (the X-men character), who would you rather have play Storm (assume these were your only two choices and the other X-Men films were never made)?:
-Charlize Theron (who was born in South Africa)
-Gabrielle Union (born in Omaha, Nebraska)

I mean, technically, if we're aiming for "character authenticity", then isn't the white woman who was actually born in Africa "more African" than the black woman who was born in the US, and thus a better fit for the character?

Moviebob brought up a good point once (I can't believe I just typed that) when he was talking about the "Prince of Persia" movie. People were complaining because they cast Jake Gyllenhaal as a Persian, but no one was complaining about them casting Ben Kingsley as one, even though Gyllenhaal is half-Jewish and thus "more middle-eastern" than Kingsley.

In other words, so much of this talk of "whitewashing" or "changing the character's race" is based on outdated concepts of "oh people from here are SUPPOSED to look like this", which is some 19th century type thinking. If we're truly living in a globalized world, then the concept of race having an automatic and necessary attachment to geographical location needs to go the way of the dodo.
No no no no no. Storm's mother is from Kenya. Her father is African American. So no its not more accurate to have a White woman play her....ugh. It would be more accurate to have an African American woman play her because of her father.

Beyond all that we never play such games when it comes to white chracters. There are White actors from Australia and England and Scotland that play American parts. Would it be more accurate if, say, an Asian American played those parts?
Ok then, we'll change it around: who would you rather play Black Panther?
-A white guy born in South Africa?
-A black guy born in North Carolina?
The particular character isn't really that relevant, my point is that if we're going for 'character authenticity" and the character was born in Africa, what's more important for the actor portraying them: that they have the same skin color as the character, or were born on the same continent?

As for the English, British, etc. actors playing 'American' parts, this is because, partly, America has always gone for the "melting pot" idea, and thus there isn't really supposed to be an associated race with "American".

But the point still stands: people often have this knee-jerk (and frankly, ignorant) belief that people who live in X country are 'supposed' to be Y race, when it flat out isn't true. For example, I've met people born, raised, and living in Mexico with very white skin; their family has been in Mexico for hundreds of years. So, if we were going to make a movie with a Mexican character, in Mexico, who would be better to portray the character: this very white Mexican person, who was born in Mexico, or say, Eva Mendes (who was born in Miami and is of Cuban Descent)? The "whitewashing" crowd would likely scream about how we picked a white actor instead of a "minority" actor, even though the white actor is far more "Mexican" than Mendes and thus far more authentic for the role.
 

mecegirl

New member
May 19, 2013
737
0
0
Ihateregistering1 said:
mecegirl said:
Ihateregistering1 said:
Adaephon said:
One thing this kind of debate always makes me wonder is just how many shades does this issue have? What I mean is a lot of people wanted Rinko Kikuchi to play this part but since we have no reason (that I know of anyways) to believe that she wanted to do the part or even tried to audition for it a few other names have been dropped and those have been mostly Chinese or Korean (or Chinese-American, Korean-American, etc.) actresses whereas Kikuchi was (according to Wikipedia) born and raised in Japan. So what I'm asking is do people think any Asian is "close enough" to play a Japanese role? There's still a fairly serious debate if the half-Indian Ben Kingsley was "Indian enough" to play Gandhi and I personally (/anecdotally) know a fair number of people who were up in arms when the African-American Morgan Freeman played the Xhosa Nelson Mandela (since, to many South Africans and probably other Africans as well, African Americans aren't "African enough" to call themselves as such because they are "too White," "too Americanized," etc.)
Thank you. I've always wondered this: if they were to make a movie about Storm (the X-men character), who would you rather have play Storm (assume these were your only two choices and the other X-Men films were never made)?:
-Charlize Theron (who was born in South Africa)
-Gabrielle Union (born in Omaha, Nebraska)

I mean, technically, if we're aiming for "character authenticity", then isn't the white woman who was actually born in Africa "more African" than the black woman who was born in the US, and thus a better fit for the character?

Moviebob brought up a good point once (I can't believe I just typed that) when he was talking about the "Prince of Persia" movie. People were complaining because they cast Jake Gyllenhaal as a Persian, but no one was complaining about them casting Ben Kingsley as one, even though Gyllenhaal is half-Jewish and thus "more middle-eastern" than Kingsley.

In other words, so much of this talk of "whitewashing" or "changing the character's race" is based on outdated concepts of "oh people from here are SUPPOSED to look like this", which is some 19th century type thinking. If we're truly living in a globalized world, then the concept of race having an automatic and necessary attachment to geographical location needs to go the way of the dodo.
No no no no no. Storm's mother is from Kenya. Her father is African American. So no its not more accurate to have a White woman play her....ugh. It would be more accurate to have an African American woman play her because of her father.

Beyond all that we never play such games when it comes to white chracters. There are White actors from Australia and England and Scotland that play American parts. Would it be more accurate if, say, an Asian American played those parts?
Ok then, we'll change it around: who would you rather play Black Panther?
-A white guy born in South Africa?
-A black guy born in North Carolina?
The particular character isn't really that relevant, my point is that if we're going for 'character authenticity" and the character was born in Africa, what's more important for the actor portraying them: that they have the same skin color as the character, or were born on the same continent?

As for the English, British, etc. actors playing 'American' parts, this is because, partly, America has always gone for the "melting pot" idea, and thus there isn't really supposed to be an associated race with "American".

But the point still stands: people often have this knee-jerk (and frankly, ignorant) belief that people who live in X country are 'supposed' to be Y race, when it flat out isn't true. For example, I've met people born, raised, and living in Mexico with very white skin; their family has been in Mexico for hundreds of years. So, if we were going to make a movie with a Mexican character, in Mexico, who would be better to portray the character: this very white Mexican person, who was born in Mexico, or say, Eva Mendes (who was born in Miami and is of Cuban Descent)? The "whitewashing" crowd would likely scream about how we picked a white actor instead of a "minority" actor, even though the white actor is far more "Mexican" than Mendes and thus far more authentic for the role.
The character is relevant as fuck. You are only choosing big names but obviously don't know anything about the character. Unless you want to explain why the king of African nation that has never been colonized or "discovered" has a White king. I mean Wakanda even has a force field around the capital.... Hypothetical movie makers may as well remake Tarzan if they are gonna go with that sort of casting because such a casting would completely change the story. Yet people always want to use BP for this argument... Why? He's the worst example to use for a race swap ever. Even Heimdall has the rational that they are space aliens. Making BP White reads like the worst White nationalist fantasy and yet I'd bet the folks using him as an example aren't racist. They are just so eager to make a point they didn't use their brains.

There isn't an associated race with American but folks sure as hell like to cast only White people for everything. You bring up your points like we live in a world where there is just as great a chance for a POC to be casted as White person in American cinema and that just is not true. Until then, fuck yeah a non pale Mexican person(or someone who could pass for one) should be casted in a movie about Mexican people because if not for that a that person wouldn't even get the chance to be in a movie at all. Like ever, except for bit parts or the Fast and Furious franchise. Like woop de do for that right? Latino actors of darker skin tones should be sooooooooo grateful for the lack or opportunity, right? That's what the "whitewashing crowd" is concerned about. Opportunity, or rather the lack of opportunity, for POC actors to play anything other than stereotypical/bit/token roles. To be someone other than Latino gangster with a heavy Spanish accent #5 in movie. Or the spicy, sensual and exotic hot chick.
 

Winnosh

New member
Sep 23, 2010
492
0
0
Qvar said:
So if I understand this correctly, Thor can be made female, but Motoko white? Hell no, that would be racism.
Seeing as how Thor was not made female I don't see how this comes into play.

Another person has assumed title and power of Thor But THOR is still around and relevant in the Marvel comics universe and the two have met and interacted.
 

Anomynous 167

New member
May 6, 2008
404
0
0
Jim Trailerpark said:
Adam Jensen said:
I have no problem with the casting. We don't know to what extent the movie is going to follow the 1995 anime. But even if we did, I still don't have a problem. It's just an anime movie. It's not like it's about a historic figure and the race of the characters matters like if someone had cast Denzel Washington to play George Washington.

There's a double standard here. Most people on The Escapist (I remember this) claimed that they wouldn't have a problem with a black James Bond, despite him being an iconic character with a long history. The dude is Scottish. But you have a problem with this all of a sudden? With an anime character being played by a non-Asian? Really? Do you really?
Stop using that common sense thing, heathen, it's not compliant with the SJW hivemind attitude of these forums. Oh and for god's sake get something for that throat, you sound like some majorly bad bourbon killed a smoking iguana in there...

Also, this issue cannot be any more obviously artificially engineered bullshit and cannot possibly be taken seriously by anyone other than those who got paid to care about it. Honestly. This is about as far as that old topic *John-Wayne-played-Genghis-Khan* as it can get
What are you insinuating, that John Wayne shouldn't play Ghenghis Khan? I see no logical reason why he can't (besides the fact that Wayne is dead... I suppose they could dress up his skeleton).
John Wayne is Scottish, and there ain't anybody more Scottish than good old Angus McKhan
 

StriderShinryu

New member
Dec 8, 2009
4,987
0
0
While I can certainly agree that they could (and maybe should) have gone with an Asian actress for Kusanagi, I think there's a pretty clear stretch being made to call out the bad adaptations as being bad because of their casting. The DBZ and Avatar movies, Exodus, etc. would have still been terrible even if they had ethnically appropriate casting. While the white washing of the casts wasn't anything to support, it didn't impact the quality of those films either way.
 

rayen020

New member
May 20, 2009
1,138
0
0
On the one hand I think Scarlett Johansen is amazingly attractive and talented and could totally pull off Mjr. Kusunagi.
On the other hand, yes Motoko should be played by an Asian actress.
And on yet a third un-grown hand (seriously [not really] two more generations and we'll have a third [and maybe a forth{!}] arm/hand) I knew that this debate was going to take place and like every other race-related movie debate it will ultimately come down to whether or not the movie is good.
And on the rarely mentioned forth hand Nearly everybody in those movies is a robot anyways, it honestly doesn't matter what they look like (except Togusa and Saito because they aren't robots). Easy lampshade, just make Batou ask why Motoko keeps that weird looking female body (like he does in the show) and have him punch himself after a cute look from Motoko (like they do in the show).
And on a totally implausible fifth hand, i find it entertaining that a show that depicted Americans as culturally insensitive xenophobic dicks has American filmmakers making casting choices that make them look like culturally insensitive xenophobic dicks...

Look all i want is for this movie to be good. I love GitS and really don't want that name tarnished. Johansen is the star talent pull, cast a bunch of other Asian unknowns to fill out the rest of the cast and get Peter Dinklage as Aramaki. Also guys don't try to do any story from stand alone complex or the movies, come up with something new.
 

theNater

New member
Feb 11, 2011
227
0
0
Qvar said:
So if I understand this correctly, Thor can be made female, but Motoko white? Hell no, that would be racism.
People can be so inconsistent.

Reminds me of a time I was out on the lake with my buddies. Our boat springs a leak, and we all grab buckets. Apparently, if I scoop water from the boat into the lake, everything's hunky-dory, but when I scoop water from the lake into the boat suddenly I'm "a maniac" and "trying to get us all killed". I mean, come on, is moving water from one place to another okay or not?
 

Darkmantle

New member
Oct 30, 2011
1,031
0
0
theNater said:
Qvar said:
So if I understand this correctly, Thor can be made female, but Motoko white? Hell no, that would be racism.
People can be so inconsistent.

Reminds me of a time I was out on the lake with my buddies. Our boat springs a leak, and we all grab buckets. Apparently, if I scoop water from the boat into the lake, everything's hunky-dory, but when I scoop water from the lake into the boat suddenly I'm "a maniac" and "trying to get us all killed". I mean, come on, is moving water from one place to another okay or not?
Why hello false equivocation, how are we doing today?

But oh no, lets really commit to this analogy shall we? So what are you saying about the end game for white people in movies then? That you perceive white actors as an intrusion into you and your buddies movie industry, and you need to take them ALL out or the industry will sink? So from your analogy as it is presented, you want the movie industry (the boat) to be totally empty of white people (the water) As a matter of fact, the boat would be on top of the water, so you want minorities to sit above whites as a ruling class, with no whites allowed into your ideal movie industry, you fascist you!

You want to over analyze? I can over analyze.

But it's not as fun when someone is doing it to every word you say is it?
 

theNater

New member
Feb 11, 2011
227
0
0
Darkmantle said:
But it's not as fun when someone is doing it to every word you say is it?
Actually, it is. I keep getting these great mixed images as I read your post. Like the film industry sinking: does the water recede when they shut the cameras off? If a director is in the middle of Nebraska and gets an idea for a movie, does the entire US sink, or does the water just appear around right there? "Hey, I've got a brilliant blub blub blub..."

And I don't know why, just the image of a boat being moved along over a sea of people just gives me the giggles. It's been that way since at least Women and Men:


Good times.
 

Pinkilicious

New member
Sep 24, 2014
74
0
0
Popido said:
Hear hear. Lynch the white cis witch.

Remember the old times and accept your guilt.

Maybe they just wanted a big name lead rather than act of racism.

Aggieknight said:
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?
She has the mass produced doll look and has hard time identifying herself.
That last line is somewhat amusing considering the type of criticisms typically leveraged at bad Hollywood actors...
also yes I believe she had one episode where she was in a different body as a sting, it was just that she is preferred to use the mass produced model with modifications inside. I think this was in the episode with the shota who she offered herself too but then he declined. That was an amusing tease to the audience like they were saying "Well maybe he would, but it is not that kind of show!"
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
Aggieknight said:
Maybe my memories of GitS is awry, but isn't Motoko Kusanagi a robot, not a person. If that's the case, can't she be any race/ethnicity/etc that her "creator" wants?

I ask because Scarlett, besides being extremely hot, looks a heck of a lot like Motoko. Ergo the casting makes sense to me.

Hollywood does have a problem with whitewashing, for example - the recent Exodus and Noah movies, but I don't see this as a case.
She isn't a robot. Ghost In The Shell deals with the idea of transhumanism, and the idea that what makes you human transcends anything physical, including the brain. In this case it's possible to transfer someone's mind and soul into a a purely artificial body. As a result she has an entirely mechanical body, but is entirely human. Throughout the various storylines you see various characters that have various levels of augementation ranging from regular Cyberpunk Cyborgs to brain downloads.

Of course the series is also ultimately anti-mysticism despite what some people think as one of the defining problems is that people have gotten such a firm understanding of the human brain that they can not only transfer brains into artificial bodies, but also program brains like a computer. In this future where most people at least have some level of cyberware allowing them to interface with computers, criminals go through the internet and invade people's minds in order to program them.

There are various storylines, but one of the big "opponents" they run into is a synthetic life form, that is to say computer code that evolved on it's own into a living thing "born in the primordial sea of information", a true information based intelligence as opposed to an AI or Artificial Intelligence which is a synthetic awareness created artificially by someone else. Part of what makes things freaky is the realization that you wind up with computers programming humans on their own.

That said part of the entire "Matoko Kusanagi" concept is that she's human but was recruited by the military who gave her the perfect body in exchange for her giving up most of her early memories and undergoing personality modification. The idea being to create a perfect, compassionless, soldier. This was done during a huge war between the east and west where Japan wound up dominating and becoming the undisputed world superpower, largely because of soldiers like this and the use of terror tactics. Without a war to fight people like Matoko wound up in some awkward positions, a lot of them joining the police or law enforcement. Matoko herself is part of a special police unit based loosely on the Shinsengumi that is tasked to defend Japan against all threats, especially high tech ones, and is given a sort of "License To Kill" and encouraged to use terror tactics (though this mandate does change somewhat as they conflict with certain government objectives). As well as she fights Matoko's big talent is in brain hacking, which oftentimes causes her to wax poetic on the nature of humanity (at least in her internal monologue) along with her own nature, as well as how everything interrelates as she deals with various "awarenesses" both natural, artificial, and everything in between.

That's probably more than you wanted to know about the character. That said given her reasons for being in the body she uses and the fact that she's basically a wartime terror machine, working as a fascist police officer in a world with strong overtones of Japanese payback power fantasies... it makes little sense for her to not appear ethnically Japanese. Technically a person can transfer into an artificial body that looks like anything (they even visit factories where such bodies are made and see them taken over ... more than once in various stories I believe) but she likely wouldn't. She doesn't do deep cover, her idea of infiltration is invisibility. All the undercover ops. and stuff are for the normal police and the like, as a general rule of her unit is involved it's not a normal situation, being something with out of control technology, politically sensitive, or a case where they want to make a big mess by way of setting an example (ie government thuggery).
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
Okay Carly Smith / Rose Of Battle, I agree with you here for the most part. I don't like ethnicity swapping established characters in either direction. I also think this character being Japanese is a big part of both the character and the world setting. Take a lot of ethnic liberties with it or get politically correct and your just doing general transhumanist Cyberpunk, it won't be "Ghost In The Shell" anymore.

That said, who do you think should play the character? "Asian" is not an ethnicity and really this is very Japanese Centric. Consider also most "Asians" hate the Japanese, and the Japanese feel superior to them. One of the reasons why westerners are sometimes considered so racist is how we tend to lump all this together especially when we shouldn't. One example of this was how someone thought it would be a great idea to cast a Korean pop st