Good Games with progressive female characters or progesssive ideas for them (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)
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Morrigan from Dragon Age Origins. Pretty much the Black Mage of the party. Though she is rather provocatively dressed, she is always in control. Her witty banter also works in her favor.
Glados from Portal. Not sexualized (except for the dark corners of the internet) but a very driven and passionate woman.
Glados from Portal. Not sexualized (except for the dark corners of the internet) but a very driven and passionate woman.
I may have one or two. Faith from Mirror's Edge, Katherine from Catherine (I did marathon it and it was confusing, so I may be remembering it wrong), Ellie and Tess from Last of Us (LGBTQ representation, too!), about a billion BioWare characters. I honestly could list every significant (and some super minor) character from Mass Effect, Dragon Age, and KoTOR (sorry, haven't played Jade Empire yet, but I own it). Sure, plenty of them have issues. Liara and Jack's development kind of jumps without the romance included, Miranda and Samara get objectified for the player (Miranda's sexuality in game, however, I will defend as an important character aspect), and all the stripper Asari (but not the Consort) are crazy problematic.
In fact, a number of the characters we could mention in this thread are problematic at times. One example (going with Mass Effect since I know it best) lies in teh conflicting arguments I've read about Ashley and Liara. Ashley receives criticism for being too strong, standardizing the image that "good" female characters must be "strong" (she also gets called other things that are terrible, but most of those would not be accusations thrown against a male character with the same traits). Liara, when she is introduced, is just a giant dork. People state that she is problematic for becoming a bumbling fool when she talks to Shepard, and therefore conveys the idea that women are "weak". A few conclusions from this. First, you will never please everyone. Even among smaller audiences, people will raw criticisms against otherwise fantastic characters. Which leads to the second point, even great characters can be problematic. The key here is the same for liking anything that is problematic: Recognize that it is, don't deny that it is, don't dismiss people that take issue with it, then enjoy it anyway. Lastly, no character can be everything to everyone all the time.
It's not inherently wrong to have a female character fill the damsel in distress role or to have a male character motivated because his significant other or daughter died. The issue is when almost every female character is relegated to these roles. By extension, no female character can fulfill every tickmark for what fulfills the need for female characters in media. For example, they can embrace their sexuality like Chloe in Uncharted or they can be asexual like Lightning in FFXIII (I expect someone may want to challenge this, but I don't feel like engaging. Do your own research).
And I know that characters whose gender you select don't really play a huge role in this, but I still have huge love for my FemShep (The Warden seemed kind of dull, but she still had to deal with sexism, which was cool).
And then there are the ones I came here to mention but other users already did.
In fact, a number of the characters we could mention in this thread are problematic at times. One example (going with Mass Effect since I know it best) lies in teh conflicting arguments I've read about Ashley and Liara. Ashley receives criticism for being too strong, standardizing the image that "good" female characters must be "strong" (she also gets called other things that are terrible, but most of those would not be accusations thrown against a male character with the same traits). Liara, when she is introduced, is just a giant dork. People state that she is problematic for becoming a bumbling fool when she talks to Shepard, and therefore conveys the idea that women are "weak". A few conclusions from this. First, you will never please everyone. Even among smaller audiences, people will raw criticisms against otherwise fantastic characters. Which leads to the second point, even great characters can be problematic. The key here is the same for liking anything that is problematic: Recognize that it is, don't deny that it is, don't dismiss people that take issue with it, then enjoy it anyway. Lastly, no character can be everything to everyone all the time.
It's not inherently wrong to have a female character fill the damsel in distress role or to have a male character motivated because his significant other or daughter died. The issue is when almost every female character is relegated to these roles. By extension, no female character can fulfill every tickmark for what fulfills the need for female characters in media. For example, they can embrace their sexuality like Chloe in Uncharted or they can be asexual like Lightning in FFXIII (I expect someone may want to challenge this, but I don't feel like engaging. Do your own research).
And I know that characters whose gender you select don't really play a huge role in this, but I still have huge love for my FemShep (The Warden seemed kind of dull, but she still had to deal with sexism, which was cool).
And then there are the ones I came here to mention but other users already did.
MrOmNomNom3 said:
Yes. After I finished Uncharted 2 I was surprised I had not heard about her before. I loved this character, her conflict was fantastic and really best portrayed from Drake's perspective. Honestly she was my favorite part of that game. I never even played the next game because I was scared she may not be as well-written.carnex said:
Of course I already mentioned some ME characters, but Tali is my fave. Liara had some of the most significant-while-logical (if you romanced her) character development in the series.Happyninja42 said:
Phoenixmgs said:
In the Smash Bros series she is actually two characters: one that wears the armor and one that does not. In the armor she is a heavy high fire power character, out of armor she is a light quick character. Armored Samus has been in smash bros since the very first game. Unarmored Samus was added in brawl. (Armored Samus has been in 4, no armor has been in 2, counting the next game)8bitOwl said:
Unarmored Samus wears the skintight jumpsuit that she wears under her armor and she uses emergency backup equipment, including a self defense energy pistol. In the next smash bros her suit got a redesign to make it look less like underwear and she was given rocket powered foot wear so she can kick like a mule (which are the high heels.) A bit silly and obviously pandering, but I have a hard time criticising Nintendo over this one.
tangent:
1 overtly sexy female character out of about 10 female characters isn't a bad thing. Sex and sexiness is a good thing in appropriate moderation. Sexy women in games are only a bad thing if that is all that is done with women, and being sexy doesn't make a female character bad. It isn't even all they are doing with that one character. Smash Bros Next has female sexiness in appropriate moderation. Damning Nintendo for daring to depict even one woman as overtly sexy is extremely troublesome. It is getting dangerously close to damning any depiction of female sexuality, approaching the "women must be chaste" double standard from the other side. It's master keys, shitty locks and slut shaming all over again.
More info on unarmored Samus:
Unarmored Samus first showed up playable in Metroid Zero Mission. She had completed her mission and defeated Mother Brain. Her ship was shot down as she tried to leave the planet and she had to eject, leaving her armor behind. She then had to solid snake her way though alien occupied territory without the advantage of her armor until she could rearm herself.
This is why the Zero Suit, the blue skin tight jumpsuit she sometimes wears, was made - previously she had just worn underwear or at most a leotard under her armor. Nintendo wanted the "girl power!" moment of Samus being a badass without her armor but they didn't want her running around in lingerie. Thus a skin tight jumpsuit that would fit under the armor was designed.
Zero Suit Samus only really became a problem with Metroid: Other M, also known as exactly how not to make a video game. It was bad in every way, but the worst was the way the character of Samus was treated. I could go really deep into this, but one of the big problems was the way Samus being sexy was abused. Samus was always designed to be sexy, but that was only used at appropriate times, when it made sense in stories or in the "what if?" spin off of Smash Bros. In Other M she looses her armor at every opportunity so she can show the camera her ass as often as possible.
In conclusion, Metroid Other M is a terrible game that has poisoned the Metroid franchise and ruined everything. Some people think it might have actually killed the franchise for good. I don't think that is true, but it certainly damaged it horribly. It will take several good Metroid titles to undo the damage done.
Thinking about it now, I kinda like how they made Veronica from Fallout: New Vegas a lesbian. They didn't make a huge deal out of it either, it was just simply a part of who she was.
Oh yeah, and she can literally punch people's heads off. That's always nice.
Oh yeah, and she can literally punch people's heads off. That's always nice.
You know what, fuck it. I?m gonna say what probably no-on else has ever said in a thread like this and cite Dixie Kong from the Donkey Kong Country games. Apart from Samus Aran, she?s the only long-standing heroine I can think of who was the protagonist of her own 2D platformer. I guess she?s progressive because, in both DKC2 and DKC3, she?s the one saving dudes-in-distress Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong (the latter being her boyfriend, although even that's nothing more than a note in the manual; they don't make a big deal out of it, like having them kiss after completing a level or something), not to mention how many female monkeys who can use their hair to glide do you see in video games?
Slightly off-topic, outside of video games, my quintessential feminist character (if there needs to be one) is Izumi Curtis from Fullmetal Alchemist. Strong, fearsome, regretful, and maternal. She?s just a damn good character, and takes pride in being ?a simple housewife? (even though, technically, she does work with her husband Sig in a butcher shop, as well as being an accomplished martial artist and alchemist).
Not saying that Samus wasn't a progressive videogame heroine, but she'd been sexualised from the beginning. It was just subtler than others, because she spent most of the game in an effectively gender-neutral suit of armor.
Personally, I think the whole Smash Bros rocket heels was a bunch of hoo-ha over nothing. She?s still badass. The Zero Suit is practical, so no problems with that. Other M is the only mark against her character. As far as the breast enlargement thing, I never even noticed until people pointed it out. But that?s just me.
Slightly off-topic, outside of video games, my quintessential feminist character (if there needs to be one) is Izumi Curtis from Fullmetal Alchemist. Strong, fearsome, regretful, and maternal. She?s just a damn good character, and takes pride in being ?a simple housewife? (even though, technically, she does work with her husband Sig in a butcher shop, as well as being an accomplished martial artist and alchemist).
Before? Are you forgetting that, as far back as the original game, the player's "reward" for beating the game fast enough was getting her to see her in a bikini? Seriously, the faster you beat the game, the more clothing she removes. What is that meant to tell you about Nintendo?s First Lady of video games? Not to mention the infamous "JUSTIN BAILEY" code that allows you to play as Samus in just her swimsuit.8bitOwl said:
Not saying that Samus wasn't a progressive videogame heroine, but she'd been sexualised from the beginning. It was just subtler than others, because she spent most of the game in an effectively gender-neutral suit of armor.
Personally, I think the whole Smash Bros rocket heels was a bunch of hoo-ha over nothing. She?s still badass. The Zero Suit is practical, so no problems with that. Other M is the only mark against her character. As far as the breast enlargement thing, I never even noticed until people pointed it out. But that?s just me.
Max Payne 3 has the worst sexist thing I've seen in a video game. You have to escort this pregnant chick through a few areas. Then, when they get into a bus, Max shoots while she drives and she can't even fucking drive straight, she literally hits things. The reason I feel it was the most sexist thing I've seen in a game is because it really seemed to have been done unconsciously instead of the normal hot chick in skimpy clothes (which is done consciously for obvious sex appeal).TopazFusion said:
Sad that this topic always gets hostile, yeah.
Despite the sexualization present (to varying degrees), Samus Aran has always been one of my top heroes. I highly recommend the Metroid: Prime Series (split across Gamecube and Wii, unfortunately, but still totally worth it).
It's more of the rock-solid, get-the-job-done character with immersive worlds, simple-yet-well-established plot, and if you *DO* do the full-achieve run, the first game only takes her helmet off, and the second game shows of the Zero-Suit while she receives honors from the race she rescued (effectively treating it like a dress uniform for a ceremony). The camera sexualizes her still, sadly, but that's a total of about 20-seconds across three games that I personally spend hours and hours per game on.
Despite the sexualization present (to varying degrees), Samus Aran has always been one of my top heroes. I highly recommend the Metroid: Prime Series (split across Gamecube and Wii, unfortunately, but still totally worth it).
It's more of the rock-solid, get-the-job-done character with immersive worlds, simple-yet-well-established plot, and if you *DO* do the full-achieve run, the first game only takes her helmet off, and the second game shows of the Zero-Suit while she receives honors from the race she rescued (effectively treating it like a dress uniform for a ceremony). The camera sexualizes her still, sadly, but that's a total of about 20-seconds across three games that I personally spend hours and hours per game on.
This. I was about to write this very post. Other M was the poison in the well, driving a character that felt like a strong female character into one that felt very, very wrong. Samus was never fleshed out too much (silent characters often have this problem), but through the gameplay you felt that she was strong (single handedly destroying entire space pirate strongholds), independent (you rarely see her supported by any other character), and stubborn (while some games had her stranded due to ship problems, not all did and she still stayed and finished the tasks).DrOswald said:
Smash bros' high heels and skin tight zero suit character would still have been weird and out of place, but if every main game in the series treated her with respect, it probably could have been ignored/forgiven. Instead every decision regarding her appearance is compounded by the poor treatment of her character in Other M.
As for the bikini/underwear in the other metroid games, I am not sure how I feel about it. It may be alluding to the Alien Ripley scene at the end, but also feels like it really did not need to be there at all. One scene at the end of the respective games is not enough to kill the strength of the character though.
I do hope that more metroid games are developed with a stronger view on her character, but if they are going to make Other M 2, I would prefer they just forget they ever had the metroid franchise.
On Topic: Samus was a strong character and while one game ruined a lot of it, if you ignore that one, she was quite good.
I'm gonna go with Makoto Nanaya from BlazBlue. I know that her design doesn't really get your hopes up that she'll be a respectable female character but she really is in a lot of ways. For one she's one of the physically strongest characters in the game's universe. I know that doesn't make a strong character necessarily but it's still a rare trait to find in a female character.
The main reason I think she's a good character is she's as independent as any of the male characters. She does what she wants. When she thinks her friends are in trouble she doesn't cry or go looking for help (like some of the other characters I could mention), she just goes and gets shit done. A lot of the other female characters in the game are motivated by men in one way or another (like most female characters), Makoto on the other hand is just providing for her family by being in the military. All around a pretty cool character.
The main reason I think she's a good character is she's as independent as any of the male characters. She does what she wants. When she thinks her friends are in trouble she doesn't cry or go looking for help (like some of the other characters I could mention), she just goes and gets shit done. A lot of the other female characters in the game are motivated by men in one way or another (like most female characters), Makoto on the other hand is just providing for her family by being in the military. All around a pretty cool character.
Suikoden really nails the gender balance for me, though there has really only been one female main character in the series, the cast throughout the games has been roughly 40% female, and some of the strongest characters are female. Basically, the attitude the game has toward gender is straight-forward: "Some people happen to have different plumbing than you. Now, get over it and let's get on with the story." Which is a much better attitude to have than either ostracizing or over-sexualizing women. Moreover, since there are so many characters, you see a diversity of women: some take on traditional gender roles, but on their own terms, some others do not. This is evidence of the character being founded in their own ideas, habits, skills, and beliefs, rather than on any concept of gender. Men in the series often take non-combat roles as well, like musicians, merchants, librarians, chefs, bath-builders, etc, furthering the notion that we are not defined by gender or sexuality.
That is really the key to the whole discussion: realizing that our gender identity and sexuality -while important- make up only a small part of who we are as people; our ideas, patterns, habits, politics, religion/spirituality, philosophies, education, culture, history, experience, etc, etc make up much more of who we "are" and how we see the world around us than mere gender.
That is really the key to the whole discussion: realizing that our gender identity and sexuality -while important- make up only a small part of who we are as people; our ideas, patterns, habits, politics, religion/spirituality, philosophies, education, culture, history, experience, etc, etc make up much more of who we "are" and how we see the world around us than mere gender.
I think you misunderstand what is meant by "for themselves." The idea is not that she is looking into a mirror and saying "wow, I am so hot. I wish I could do myself." She is sexy and she allows others to see her being sexy because she enjoys being sexy.8bitOwl said:
There are people who are justly proud of their beauty and like to be seen as beautiful. Though others see the beautiful person and enjoy their beauty the person is beautiful for themselves because they gain satisfaction, confidence or pleasure from others admiring their beauty. They are beautiful for the benefit it provides to themselves, not for the benefit it provides for their admirers.
Bayonetta is sexy for herself in a similar way. Yes, other people are part of the equation. But ultimately the character of Bayonetta is sexy for her own pleasure and benefit, not for any pleasure or benefit another might gain from her sexiness. She has fully embraced her own sexuality as something she will use to benefit herself when and how she wants it to.
In this way Bayonetta is a progressive character. Bayonetta is, by any standard, a hypersexualized character. She makes all sorts of suggestive comments, she shows off her body whenever and however she feels like, etc. It is fair to say that she meets all the criteria for being a "slut" or any number of other derogatory terms. And this is never once portrayed as a bad thing.
In a society where sexuality, especially female sexuality, is often viewed as something dirty to hide and be ashamed of, this is progressive. Bayonetta preaches that a woman can use her body in anyway she wants and does not have to be ashamed for doing so.
Bastion spoilers.
I'm going to say Zia, from Bastion. Because I think she's fascinating, and depending on how you play the game, she has the potential to be the driving force of the narrative after you initially meet her. Initially it may seem as if she's one dimensional- she's a singer with a pretty face, but as the game goes on, her personality begins to unravel a bit, and you are presented with her frustration prior to the calamity of being trapped in the city and her desire to explore the unknown. Linked also to her pulls between her two native cultures, one she's intimidated by and the other that oppresses her.
There's also a part in the game where the damsel in distress trope is turned on it's side slightly as you arrive to supposedly rescue her from her kidnappers only for her to admit that she went willingly, in a state of limbo from believing she may have a home to go back to elsewhere, but then realizing that notion was rapidly crumbling away too.
She pulls on the central themes of the game- namely she works in the favour of choosing the journey and experiences of the unknown rather than to stay in the banal but safer existence of life.
In the end, it is likely to be her actions and her way of thinking through the course of the game that may swing you to choose to move on and start anew rather than going back.
I'm going to say Zia, from Bastion. Because I think she's fascinating, and depending on how you play the game, she has the potential to be the driving force of the narrative after you initially meet her. Initially it may seem as if she's one dimensional- she's a singer with a pretty face, but as the game goes on, her personality begins to unravel a bit, and you are presented with her frustration prior to the calamity of being trapped in the city and her desire to explore the unknown. Linked also to her pulls between her two native cultures, one she's intimidated by and the other that oppresses her.
There's also a part in the game where the damsel in distress trope is turned on it's side slightly as you arrive to supposedly rescue her from her kidnappers only for her to admit that she went willingly, in a state of limbo from believing she may have a home to go back to elsewhere, but then realizing that notion was rapidly crumbling away too.
She pulls on the central themes of the game- namely she works in the favour of choosing the journey and experiences of the unknown rather than to stay in the banal but safer existence of life.
In the end, it is likely to be her actions and her way of thinking through the course of the game that may swing you to choose to move on and start anew rather than going back.
Perfect Dark, anyone? A game starring an intelligent, logical woman with lightning fast reflexes- and while she certainly wasn't unattractive, about 95% of the game is in 1st person, so it's by far more about what she does rather than how she looks.
Lucatiel of mirra and Sieglinde of catarina from dark souls 2/dark souls respectively. Both are knights trying to find/save a family member in a land full of stuff that wants to stick pointy metal(among other thing) into everything that moves.
Sieglinde might get some minus points, for being saved by the player(the prerequiste to finding her is to kill a golem that serves as her prison), but easily makes good on them by having the balls to travel to lordran while not being undead. To put this into perspective, lordran is a place where only the undead (cursed beings who have nothing left to lose and are viciously hunted everywhere else in the world) go to take on some suicidal journey to figure out theyr destiny or turn into a hollow(a soulless husk of a person hunting for beings that still posses a soul, a zombie essentially). Sieglinde journeys to what is essentially hell on earth to deliever her mothers dying words to her undead father before it's to late.
Lucatiel is an undead knight trying to find her brother in drangleic (the darksouls 2 version of lordran) while struggeling with the undead curse slowly taking her memory away and turning her into a hollow. She helps the player out of her own will on several occasions and is a fully capable knight wearing a totally bitching mask doing so.
Both are rather tragic heroines with different personalitys, sieglinde is jovial and optimistic while lucatiel is serious and melancholic, as well as theyr own motivations and missions.
Sieglinde might get some minus points, for being saved by the player(the prerequiste to finding her is to kill a golem that serves as her prison), but easily makes good on them by having the balls to travel to lordran while not being undead. To put this into perspective, lordran is a place where only the undead (cursed beings who have nothing left to lose and are viciously hunted everywhere else in the world) go to take on some suicidal journey to figure out theyr destiny or turn into a hollow(a soulless husk of a person hunting for beings that still posses a soul, a zombie essentially). Sieglinde journeys to what is essentially hell on earth to deliever her mothers dying words to her undead father before it's to late.
Lucatiel is an undead knight trying to find her brother in drangleic (the darksouls 2 version of lordran) while struggeling with the undead curse slowly taking her memory away and turning her into a hollow. She helps the player out of her own will on several occasions and is a fully capable knight wearing a totally bitching mask doing so.
Both are rather tragic heroines with different personalitys, sieglinde is jovial and optimistic while lucatiel is serious and melancholic, as well as theyr own motivations and missions.
I'm surprised no one mentioned Elizabeth from Bioshock 2 yet. She starts out as a cliche girl in a tower but grows into this intelligent, strong, dynamic, and flawed person, especially in Burial At Sea.
