Good Riddance, Fred Phelps: 5 Pivotal Moments For LGBTs In Comics

RossaLincoln

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Good Riddance, Fred Phelps: 5 Pivotal Moments For LGBTs In Comics

To mark the passing of a bigot, let's look at how gay people have fared on the pages of American comic books.

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AzrealMaximillion

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RossaLincoln said:
Alright I'm calling this out.

I'm not going to say I like Fred Phelps here, but there's a line here and literally laughing/celebrating the death of anyone is pretty immature in my books. I expect this kind of stuff from a Gawker media outlet.

Yes, Phelps was a huge knob when it came to being a massively homophobic prick, but you've just fed the Westboro Baptist Church the attention they crave. These are people that picket funerals for media attention but you just gave it up for free. This is a group of people who don't even have the guts to protest near the people they oppose, why give them the time of day and muck up the accomplishments of LGBT moments of any media by association?
 

Barbas

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Oh, I don't know about that...once again, people are up in arms and the Westboro Baptist Church seems to be getting the publicity it craves. I read that Phelps used to be a civil rights lawyer, representing non-white residents of Kansas in discrimination cases. You can proclaim that part of his life to be a diamond in the muck if you wish to, but that only makes it stand out more.

Did he change his mind again before he died? Maybe. I also read that his relatives who left the church were denied contact with him, so I doubt I'll ever know, but there is always the possibility.
 

RossaLincoln

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I'm celebrating the fact that his hateful legacy failed. Though, and I swear I don't mean to offend, I have no problem considering people who aren't bigots morally superior to people who are, nor do I think it's in bad taste to comment on the legacy of hateful bigots by pointing out how they failed, and hilariously so.
 

Fox12

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RossaLincoln said:
I'm celebrating the fact that his hateful legacy failed. Though, and I swear I don't mean to offend, I have no problem considering people who aren't bigots morally superior to people who are, nor do I think it's in bad taste to comment on the legacy of hateful bigots by pointing out how they failed, and hilariously so.
Perhaps, but Westboro Baptist Church was never influential, unlike other hate groups. They effectively angered every political and social group in existence, and I believe their congregation never numbered more than maybe forty something people.

I don't think anyone will really miss him, of course, but what I think most people are saying is that we shouldn't react to hate with more hate. That just gives Westboro what it wants: attention. We should pity and ignore them, since their effectively the little toddler in the room that wants attention, but doesn't have any real power or authority.

Interestingly, I don't know any Republicans under the age of 65 that hate homosexuals, due in large part to the massive Libertarian influence that currently exists within the party. Lets celebrate the positives, not the death of a hateful old bigot who wasted what could have been a positive life. He doesn't deserve it.
 

RossaLincoln

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RossaLincoln said:
I'm celebrating the fact that his hateful legacy failed.
Only if you consider his crazier, more spiteful, lawyer of a daughter taking over is a "failure".

But still, I cared more when Saddam Hussein died than I care about Fred Phelps' death.
 

vagabondwillsmile

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I'm torn as well - certainly not offended; I don't think any of the commenters are offended per se.

I would have APPLAUDED from my desk, if the equivalent of this was written while he was still alive. A direct challenge like that to him and his idiology would have been bold and most impressive indeed. But now, it feels a little late, and a little like easy pickings.

Look, we pull over on the side of road and stop when we see an ambulance coming - it doesn't matter where it's going or who is in it. We pull over and stop for a funeral procession - it doesn't matter who is in the casket. Civil/equal rights causes are of better mettle than public gloating, or at least they ought to be. This could have been a triumphant article written with dignity and class, rather than a five page treatise that amounts to some interesting comic info on a relevant topic, book-ended by pointing and laughing at some bigotted jerk's tombstone. One path is journalism and being the bigger better person (like the better parts of this article), the other is a glorified tumblr post.
 

ShirowShirow

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Neat rundown. Wasn't aware of these firsts myself. Is Batwoman (A completely different one from the one mentioned in the Batman bit, mind) the first gay superhero to have their own ongoing series...?

As for celebrating Fred Phelps' death being considered offensive or something... Going by that "Be Tolerant of Intolerance" logic... Yeah, sorry, can't muster up the necessary rat asses to act all impartial. I will literally dance on his grave given the chance.
 

RossaLincoln

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MinionJoe said:
RossaLincoln said:
I'm celebrating the fact that his hateful legacy failed.
Only if you consider his crazier, more spiteful, lawyer of a daughter taking over is a "failure".

But still, I cared more when Saddam Hussein died than I care about Fred Phelps' death.
The failure, as I note in the article, is that gay rights are expanding rapidly and very soon, gay marriage will be the law of all 50 states.
 

gigastar

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MinionJoe said:
RossaLincoln said:
I'm celebrating the fact that his hateful legacy failed.
Only if you consider his crazier, more spiteful, lawyer of a daughter taking over is a "failure".
Actually it seems that the WBC is ruled by a council of the eldest male members now, after Fred was excommunicated from his own church last year.

Now if his own creations turning against him isnt poetic justice, then i donw know what is.
 

Agayek

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While I can wholeheartedly agree with the spirit of this piece, I gotta say that it's in several different kinds of poor taste.

He died, and now you are, metaphorically, picketing his funeral. You're taking advantage of a man's death in order to further an agenda. This is exactly the kind of tasteless, puerile, spiteful, and pointless behavior I'd expect from Phelps, not anyone who actually opposed him. It says a lot about both the author and the Escapist, little of it good, that this kind of sensationalism and spite has their names on it.

Be glad that he's dead, sure, but at least put forth the effort to be a better person than he was.
 

Genocidicles

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It's a strange world when people are basically saying 'too soon' over jokes made about an utter asshole.
 

Amethyst Wind

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I'd like to propose an experiment related to one of DC's failures on the sexuality front.

Batwoman's same-gender marriage was vetoed by DC, but what if everybody acted as if it wasn't?

Hear me out. Sherlock Holmes, until recently, was iconically seen with a deerstalker hat, which had its origins in the Basil Rathbone adaptation, despite not featuring anywhere in the original Conan Doyle works at all. Still, through cultural osmosis, it became an accepted part of his character. Have deerstalker, will Sherlock. People forgot that he didn't have this in the original literature.

My proposal is this: What if all the fans, or even just as many as can be convinced, simply acted like the marriage had gone through and Batwoman was happily wedded to her sweetheart? If it was done enough by fans, would the writers (perhaps when the character was handed over to a new writer) perhaps simply forget that the character wasn't actually married in the first place thanks to executive meddling?

If we change the perception of the character now, could it influence canon later?

If done well enough, would it essentially force DC to accept it? (Yes, they aren't the most progressive of companies, but perhaps it can be explained in terms of bottom line)
 

RossaLincoln

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RossaLincoln said:
The failure, as I note in the article, is that gay rights are expanding rapidly and very soon, gay marriage will be the law of all 50 states.
Ah! My apologies. I misread it as a "failed legacy" when the legacy (ie WBC) shows every intention of continuing their activities.

I've always suspected that WBC was never really about curbing anyone's rights. They're just about pushing buttons until someone retaliates and can sued. It's why so many of them are lawyers. As an added bonus, being classified as a "church" means they don't have to pay any taxes on any monetary judgements that they win.
 

RossaLincoln

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I'm sorry but this is a fucked up article. It really is because as much as people disliked the WBC and their actions it doesn't help when you have articles like this get published that celebrate the death of another human being.

It also doesn't help that you could of quite simply had the entire article exist WITHOUT a single mention of Fred Phelps. While I understand that writers want their content to be relevant this is indeed poor taste and I would actually go so far in saying that the editor should remove this article and remove the content involving Fred Phelps. Something like this can stand on it's own two feet without having to prematurely dance on another person's grave.
 

ccggenius12

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If nothing else, I learned something new today. That Extraño character reminds me of someone... Am I crazy, or does anyone else think Eiichiro Oda might have had a little inspiration when he was designing Foxy the Silver Fox? The hair, the skin tone, the color scheme, just... wow.
 

Major_Tom

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We celebrated when The Wicked Witch Thatcher died, so we can sure as hell do it for this asshole. Enough with holier-than-thou bullshit.
 

Kinitawowi

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Major_Tom said:
We celebrated when The Wicked Witch Thatcher died, so we can sure as hell do it for this asshole. Enough with holier-than-thou bullshit.
Obnoxious shits did it in their own thread. It wasn't the main headline of a featured article.

Fred Phelps died. A lot of people will not be mourning him. A couple - friends, family, people who shared his beliefs - will. Plenty of people - myself included - couldn't care less. But this I will say; I don't like reading anything that actively glories in the death of anybody. This is reducing a real flesh-and-blood human being to the level of a panto villain.
 

Braedan

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Major_Tom said:
We celebrated when The Wicked Witch Thatcher died, so we can sure as hell do it for this asshole. Enough with holier-than-thou bullshit.
Here here!

Get off your high horses people. An asshole died, and I'm going to drink a beer to celebrate the world becoming a better place.
 

Drizzitdude

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I would like to say we shouldn't be celebrating the death of a person, but the guy was an asshole, I was happy when he was gone because this guy was just all sorts of terrible.
 

RossaLincoln

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MinionJoe said:
RossaLincoln said:
The failure, as I note in the article, is that gay rights are expanding rapidly and very soon, gay marriage will be the law of all 50 states.
Ah! My apologies. I misread it as a "failed legacy" when the legacy (ie WBC) shows every intention of continuing their activities.

I've always suspected that WBC was never really about curbing anyone's rights. They're just about pushing buttons until someone retaliates and can sued. It's why so many of them are lawyers. As an added bonus, being classified as a "church" means they don't have to pay any taxes on any monetary judgements that they win.
Yeah, to clarify, that failure I speak of *is* his legacy.
 

Silverfox99

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Is the world a better place with him gone? Yes. My problem with articles like this is the fact that being a bigot to a bigot doesn't make you any less of a bigot then the bigot you are being a bigot to.
 

TaboriHK

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AzrealMaximillion said:
RossaLincoln said:
Alright I'm calling this out.

I'm not going to say I like Fred Phelps here, but there's a line here and literally laughing/celebrating the death of anyone is pretty immature in my books. I expect this kind of stuff from a Gawker media outlet.

Yes, Phelps was a huge knob when it came to being a massively homophobic prick, but you've just fed the Westboro Baptist Church the attention they crave. These are people that picket funerals for media attention but you just gave it up for free. This is a group of people who don't even have the guts to protest near the people they oppose, why give them the time of day and muck up the accomplishments of LGBT moments of any media by association?
If they craved attention for this, they would have held a funeral. I think you can count the people who will be mourning his death on one hand, and that includes his family. If you're sensitive to that, more power to you. But as he was a person who masterminded attacking the families of dead soldiers AT their funerals, I have no problem with anyone calling him out for exactly what he is - a hateful dead bigot.
 

RossaLincoln

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Silverfox99 said:
Is the world a better place with him gone? Yes. My problem with articles like this is the fact that being a bigot to a bigot doesn't make you any less of a bigot then the bigot you are being a bigot to.
When you make bigotry so broad as to include any hatred/intolerance/whatever of anyone or anything, bigotry stops being an inherently bad thing. Quite honestly, we should be bigots to bigots, because doing otherwise might make them feel as if their views are accepted when they aren't and shouldn't be.
 

AzrealMaximillion

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TaboriHK said:
I have no problem with anyone calling him out for exactly what he is - a hateful dead bigot.
There's a difference between calling someone out and celebrating their death. A big difference. Phelps didn't even kill anyone or advocate violence. He was a nuisance. Nothing more.

RossaLincoln said:
I'm celebrating the fact that his hateful legacy failed. Though, and I swear I don't mean to offend, I have no problem considering people who aren't bigots morally superior to people who are, nor do I think it's in bad taste to comment on the legacy of hateful bigots by pointing out how they failed, and hilariously so.
Celebrating human death is still an immense tasteless thing to do. It would have served the accomplishments of LGBT moments in comics if you hadn't mentioned Phelps at all.

Or if you had focused an article specifically on him it would have been better for dialogue.

Here's a fun fact. Fred Phelps was lawyers during the Jim Crow era, the era where black people could be lynched for looking at a white person in a certain way. He was also one of the only lawyers who'd fight for justice on the side of Black people in the Jim Crow era.

In the South.


I think the dialogue of how a man who was one of the extremely few white lawyers representing black people in a fight for civil rights goes to becoming one of the biggest homophobic voices would be less crass.


My beef isn't with you calling his homophobia out. I despise all discrimination, but I also find it disappointing that its apparently OK to celebrate someone being dead alongside great achievements of a group of people who've been discriminated.

It's like going, "Hey guys Mel Gibson just died of cancer! Isn't that awesome? Now to celebrate let's take a gander at the accomplishments of Jewish filmmakers!"
 

Silverfox99

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LifeCharacter said:
Silverfox99 said:
Is the world a better place with him gone? Yes. My problem with articles like this is the fact that being a bigot to a bigot doesn't make you any less of a bigot then the bigot you are being a bigot to.
When you make bigotry so broad as to include any hatred/intolerance/whatever of anyone or anything, bigotry stops being an inherently bad thing. Quite honestly, we should be bigots to bigots, because doing otherwise might make them feel as if their views are accepted when they aren't and shouldn't be.
The meaning of bigotry is being intolerant of others ideas or beliefs that differs from your own. There is no other qualification and there shouldn't be. When right or wrong gets put into the equation it creates a situation where bigotry can be justified. The justification then leads to excesses of the hateful behavior. This is exactly what the LGBT community has been fighting against. Many of those people resistant to gay rights believe they are correct and right. Since everyone has a different opinions and ideas the only way to stop bigotry is having the meaning be broad.

This does not mean that you agree with them. It does mean that you don't return the hate and intolerance back at them. When you are hateful and a bigot to a bigot you are only reenforcing the hate in that person. You can not agree with them and still not be hateful and intolerant.
 

martyrdrebel27

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Barbas said:
Oh, I don't know about that...once again, people are up in arms and the Westboro Baptist Church seems to be getting the publicity it craves. I read that Phelps used to be a civil rights lawyer, representing non-white residents of Kansas in discrimination cases. You can proclaim that part of his life to be a diamond in the muck if you wish to, but that only makes it stand out more.

Did he change his mind again before he died? Maybe. I also read that his relatives who left the church were denied contact with him, so I doubt I'll ever know, but there is always the possibility.
i didn't know that, and it only further proves a theory i've had for awhile... what if Fred Phelps was the greatest, most helpfully successful troll of all time? What if he saw the injustice in America towards the gay community and decided to change it in an extremely subversive way... sacrifice himself to make the opponents of gay rights looks like extremist psychopaths.

he might have known he'd go down in history hated, but didn't care because he knew that by coming off so absurdly outlandish, it would crush any hope that the anti-gay movement would be taken seriously?
 

Kenjitsuka

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A nice informative article on the subject, thanks.

But this bit:
"for a Superman/Batman team up to get a hell of a lot more romantic. Sadly, that's never going to happen,"

Why is it sad? These characters where just never intended to be gay, so ... ?
They where created, born one could call it, straight. IMHO it's just the way things are fore these two.
That doesn't mean there can be, and maybe should be, more LBGT characters in comics.

There's also not a ton of non white characters in most ancient comics, yet are you also going to call it sad that Clark Kent never will be black? It's sad that there are few non white heroes out there, that doesn't mean the existing ones should be changed all of a sudden.
 

RossaLincoln

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Kenjitsuka said:
A nice informative article on the subject, thanks.

But this bit:
"for a Superman/Batman team up to get a hell of a lot more romantic. Sadly, that's never going to happen,"

Why is it sad? These characters where just never intended to be gay, so ... ?
They where created, born one could call it, straight. IMHO it's just the way things are fore these two.
That doesn't mean there can be, and maybe should be, more LBGT characters in comics.
Assume my tongue was planted firmly in cheek, and also that this turn of phrase is often assumed to be shorthand for "sadly for [people in question]".
 

Czann

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The guy may have been despicable, and he was, but to actually celebrate someone's death doesn't make you any better than him.
 

Sunrider

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Czann said:
The guy may have been despicable, and he was, but to actually celebrate someone's death doesn't make you any better than him.
Yes, celebrating the demise of one of the biggest hate mongers of our time is surely the same as picketing the funeral of hundreds of grieving families and persecuting people for their sexuality.

You know what? I'll just be a despicable person then. I don't mind. I'm happy he's dead, and I hope everyone who shares his beliefs will die too. Good riddance.
 

Czann

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Sunrider84 said:
Czann said:
The guy may have been despicable, and he was, but to actually celebrate someone's death doesn't make you any better than him.
Yes, celebrating the demise of one of the biggest hate mongers of our time is surely the same as picketing the funeral of hundreds of grieving families and persecuting people for their sexuality.

You know what? I'll just be a despicable person then. I don't mind. I'm happy he's dead, and I hope everyone who shares his beliefs will die too. Good riddance.
We can go ahead and kill every single human on Earth then. That would surely, no irony here, solve all our problems.

Except that pesky death thing.
 

Sunrider

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Czann said:
Sunrider84 said:
Czann said:
The guy may have been despicable, and he was, but to actually celebrate someone's death doesn't make you any better than him.
Yes, celebrating the demise of one of the biggest hate mongers of our time is surely the same as picketing the funeral of hundreds of grieving families and persecuting people for their sexuality.

You know what? I'll just be a despicable person then. I don't mind. I'm happy he's dead, and I hope everyone who shares his beliefs will die too. Good riddance.
We can go ahead and kill every single human on Earth then. That would surely, no irony here, solve all our problems.

Except that pesky death thing.
Yes, we could do that, because everyone is clearly on the same level as Phelps.

Oh wait. No they're not. Stop being an apologist for sub-human scum like him.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Some of my fav characters are of the LGBT. Scandal Savage, Knockout, *Takes a moment to mutter about the end of Secret Six, and their lack of appearing in the new 52* Batwoman, Renee Montoya.
Some are kinda close, IMO, or at least just in my mind in Powergirl, Terra, Poison Ivy, and Harley Quinn.

Sadly, I don't think the man's death will slow the anti-LGBT sentiments of the church.
I'm hard pressed to fully dislike the article celebrating his death, taste, or not. Not only was his hatred distasteful, he, and his church, arguably, didn't do Christians any favors by adding to the stereotype that Christians hate LGBT, never-mind having protests at funerals, and threatening George Takei's, and Ellen Degeneres' weddings.

Still, part of me feels bad a guy died, no matter what his views were.
 

RossaLincoln

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"Good riddance"?
As in the earth is better off without him?

Isn't that what he thought about certain people?
 

Bbleds

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So with all the controversy surrounding this individual, and some very understandable personal feelings coming out in this forum, let me say my peace with something positive. Simply that I feel amazed with people in general today. While I'm sure there are some out there discussing on how to take "revenge", a quick google search brought up statements from LGBT groups and others who suffered from the man's hate with the resounding opinion that we should not find ways to publicly avenge his wrongs because that would only play into his atrocious game. I was worried that many would be thinking about the obvious (and unoriginal) choice of picketing his funeral (which current word is there will not be one), but I was happy to find that many people feel the way I do and understand that the only thing we should do is continue to progress as a society, support equality for all individuals, and celebrate the success in those goals.

Oh, and right quick to you Lincoln, I personally didn't find an issue with your article and I enjoyed learning about homosexuality's representation in comics. While your remarks were certainly opinionated, it's a far cry from "fighting hate with hate" and being detrimental to the cause. You know what is most important and made it clear in your article. I'm sure you know this and stand behind your work, just felt like some friendly remarks would be nice.
 

Funyahns

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Normally I would say its bad taste to celebrate a death. In this case though I feel that it was over due. Shame no one shot him years ago at a funeral
 

RossaLincoln

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Silverfox99 said:
LifeCharacter said:
Silverfox99 said:
Is the world a better place with him gone? Yes. My problem with articles like this is the fact that being a bigot to a bigot doesn't make you any less of a bigot then the bigot you are being a bigot to.
When you make bigotry so broad as to include any hatred/intolerance/whatever of anyone or anything, bigotry stops being an inherently bad thing. Quite honestly, we should be bigots to bigots, because doing otherwise might make them feel as if their views are accepted when they aren't and shouldn't be.
The meaning of bigotry is being intolerant of others ideas or beliefs that differs from your own. There is no other qualification and there shouldn't be. When right or wrong gets put into the equation it creates a situation where bigotry can be justified. The justification then leads to excesses of the hateful behavior. This is exactly what the LGBT community has been fighting against. Many of those people resistant to gay rights believe they are correct and right. Since everyone has a different opinions and ideas the only way to stop bigotry is having the meaning be broad.

This does not mean that you agree with them. It does mean that you don't return the hate and intolerance back at them. When you are hateful and a bigot to a bigot you are only reenforcing the hate in that person. You can not agree with them and still not be hateful and intolerant.
I think it's important to keep in mind though that I'm not the one treating Fred Phelps, and his kin, as sick and dirty animals. No, you should never respond to intolerance with more intolerance (although I don't see where the supposed hatred is supposed to be in this article), but the footing isn't exactly equal at the moment. Frankly, I'm not sure it's fair of you to expect the people who are still, in many ways, part of the oppressed minority to act 100% respectfully in response to the death of such a dreadfully hateful bigot. Especially, when his prejudice views are emblematic of an, admittedly dying, but still very noticeable part of American culture.

So, while I won't be throwing a jamboree in honor of Mr.Phelps' death, and nor do I think anyone else should for that matter, I have absolutely NO problem with poking fun at a man who would have liked to see me treated as a second-class citizen because of something I can't control.
 

RossaLincoln

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Yeah.... I get it that Fred Phelps was an asshole to the 3rd degree but it doesn't really mean we should start celebrating his death. I mean, he pretty much dedicated his life to hate (legal hate, but hate nonetheless) but he wasn't the second coming of Hitler. I would expect people to take the high road and not celebrate his death like Westboro does with gay people and soldiers.
 

Lunar Templar

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Oh? The worthless waste of space and resources died?

Good, I hope he enjoys his stay in Hell. Now if we can just be rid of the rest of his filthy cult the world truly WILL be a better place, till then its just one less worthless sub-human in the world.

Oh, and before some one decides to get on my back about how 'I'm no better then him'. Save it, I AM still better then him. He founded an organization found on hate and lies, brought suffering to god knows how many family's already suffering from the loss of a loved one, while hiding behind the rights given by a country his own cult hates.

But I'm TOTALLY just as bad is him, for celebrating the death of an evil human, yup >.> totally on the same level. /sarcasm
 

ace_of_something

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Anything that makes people more aware of Stormwatch and the Authority is good in my book. Still pissed that DC cancelled the new Stormwatch of the new 52. I liked Midnighter's new chin spike!
 

thepyrethatburns

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Two things:

1) The amusing thing about the Northstar wedding (as well as the new Alan Scott turning out to be gay) is the big two waited for Archie Comics to have a gay wedding, take the lumps for it, and then trying to keep up. Say what you will about Archie but, when the writers want to write on a subject, they can turn out both socially challenging AND nuanced material.

2) What I said on G+

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So I know it's not right to feel glee at someone else's death and that one should strive to be the better man in these cases.

But, then again, it is said that one should be true to one's self and, deep down, I'm just too petty to not feel irrational glee at this vermin's passing. Whether it was his hatred of the gay community or yelling poisonous insults at the grieving widows of our fallen soldiers, this vermin was a cancer upon our society. I can't think of a more appropriate song to present my feelings here than this one.


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As for it being in bad taste, eh.

First, I imagine that the people complaining have no trouble unleashing the venom on people or groups when they are alive. One would think that this should be more reprehensible as the dead no longer care what is being said about them while the living do. Being dead should not give you immunity to the criticism that you would have gotten when you are alive.

Second, such criticism is not on the same level as going to his funeral and yelling at anyone who is grieving. To say that it is reveals a lack of any sense of proportion and/or spending too much time on the internet.

Third, it is quite natural to feel good about someone's death when that person is a cancer on your existence. We tell ourselves that it isn't in an attempt to conform to society's standards but that is the denial of emotion. Many victims of cases such as child abuse have had to grapple with feeling guilty about feeling good when something bad (prison, death) happens to their former abuser until they find out (usually through therapy) that it is okay to have these feelings.

So, yes, it is okay to feel good about Phelp's death and to be able to express your feelings as such.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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RossaLincoln said:
To mark the passing of a bigot, let's look at how gay people have fared on the pages of American comic books.
**raises a glass**

Cheers.

Also, a neat article. Movie Bob already covered Wonder Woman in depth, but it was nice to hear about some of the others. I didn't realize that Batman/Robin homo-eroticism was the source of the Comic Authority thingy.
 

Olas

Hello!
Dec 24, 2011
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Houseman said:
"Good riddance"?
As in the earth is better off without him?

Isn't that what he thought about certain people?
Ya, the difference is we're right, the world IS better off without him. Don't even try to defend this guy, the only thing that separates him from being like Hitler is he didn't have enough followers or power to act on his disgusting beliefs.

I think it's easy to forget just how revolting this guy and his followers are. When people were mourning the loss of children and family members to school shootings like Sandy Hook these guys were CELEBRATING it, celebrating the murder of children.
 

MrMan999

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Damn guys. Isn't celebrating his death just sinking to his level? I mean I had no love for the man, but shouldn't we be the better men or women in this scenario and not do that? In a way I pity him, Living live consumed by hate is no way to live life. The guy clearly had some personal issues and demons. I hope that his soul found the peace that has clearly eluded him in life.
 

[REDACTED]

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RossaLincoln said:
To mark the passing of a bigot, let's look at how gay people have fared on the pages of American comic books.
Yaaaaay! *Uncorks champagne.*

I cheered when Osama bin Laden died and I'm cheering now. I had some reservations about cheering anyone's death, but then I remember that this man not only devoted the last, precious years of his life to tormenting innocent people at their most vulnerable moments, but brainwashed fucking children into spewing his hateful, cultish bullshit.

I wouldn't picket his funeral, but I'm not shedding any crocodile tears over this human filth. Unlike the soldiers whose families he harassed, the world really is a better place without him in it.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

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Curious. I wonder if in the last few moments of his life, he realised he wasted it?

I am not happy he is dead, and I am not sad. Either would imply I cared about him in the first place.
 

TaboriHK

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AzrealMaximillion said:
TaboriHK said:
I have no problem with anyone calling him out for exactly what he is - a hateful dead bigot.
There's a difference between calling someone out and celebrating their death. A big difference. Phelps didn't even kill anyone or advocate violence. He was a nuisance. Nothing more.
There's absolutely no data on what kind of emotional harm he inflicted on literally hundreds of families. You can write off his actions as being a nuisance, as a person who never watched a brother, or a friend, or a father's death gleefully cheered by a peanut gallery that immediately sued anyone with the audacity to throw a punch. His church was largely funded on lawsuits of people they harassed.

It's fine if the tone bugs you personally, to each his own. All I'm saying is the tone will probably be less "agreed upon as unnecessarily ugly" than you might think. Fred Phelps was about as ugly as you can get, and he made ugly children, and they all together ruined a lot of people's lives.
 

WarpedLord

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Silverfox99 said:
LifeCharacter said:
Silverfox99 said:
Is the world a better place with him gone? Yes. My problem with articles like this is the fact that being a bigot to a bigot doesn't make you any less of a bigot then the bigot you are being a bigot to.
When you make bigotry so broad as to include any hatred/intolerance/whatever of anyone or anything, bigotry stops being an inherently bad thing. Quite honestly, we should be bigots to bigots, because doing otherwise might make them feel as if their views are accepted when they aren't and shouldn't be.
The meaning of bigotry is being intolerant of others ideas or beliefs that differs from your own. There is no other qualification and there shouldn't be. When right or wrong gets put into the equation it creates a situation where bigotry can be justified. The justification then leads to excesses of the hateful behavior. This is exactly what the LGBT community has been fighting against. Many of those people resistant to gay rights believe they are correct and right. Since everyone has a different opinions and ideas the only way to stop bigotry is having the meaning be broad.

This does not mean that you agree with them. It does mean that you don't return the hate and intolerance back at them. When you are hateful and a bigot to a bigot you are only reenforcing the hate in that person. You can not agree with them and still not be hateful and intolerant.
It's not his "beliefs" that were the problem, though.

I mean, I STRONGLY disagree with his beliefs, as do almost all of us here, and most people. The fact remains, you're free to BELIEVE what you want, no matter how stupid or f-ed up those beliefs are.

No... what we all have a problem with is his actions. The man did (and led others to do) absolutely despicable things. Hating someone because of their actions isn't bigoted.

You're not a bigot for hating someone who murders a school full of children. You're not a bigot for hating someone who rapes and kills women for fun.

Sure, he may not have been as bad as either of those, but no... you're not a bigot for hating someone who uses the funerals of soldiers who died in the service of their country or innocent children who died in one of the places they should have been truly safe as a damned sounding board for his hatred and evil.

As an agnostic, in cases like this I hope there is a God, so that I can say that I hope this steaming pile of human waste enjoys the special place in Hell he's earned. May he suffer there for all eternity.
 

Saxnot

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RossaLincoln said:
I'm celebrating the fact that his hateful legacy failed. Though, and I swear I don't mean to offend, I have no problem considering people who aren't bigots morally superior to people who are, nor do I think it's in bad taste to comment on the legacy of hateful bigots by pointing out how they failed, and hilariously so.

i swear i didn't mean to offend? that's just a straight-up lie. You can't celebrate someone's death (no matter how you justify it) and then claim you don't mean to cause offence. you do. you just don't care about offending people who care about Fred Phelps. That's your own choice to make, but don't pretend we're idiots and come out with some weak excuse like that.

on topic: His later life may have been lived in the name of hate, but i can't judge Phelps as harshly since i learned that he spent much of his earlier life defending black people in civil rights cases (sometimes for free) in Kansas. He stood up to an enormous amount of hate and bigotry defending the rights of his fellow man when few others in his state would. He was more complicated than just a hate preacher. As i see it, he was a man that stood up for his convictions regardless of what the rest of the world thought. I respect that regardless of what i think of the opinions he held, and i don't feel he deserves the 'ding-dong the witch is dead' treatment.
 

Savryc

NAPs, Spooks and Poz. Oh my!
Aug 4, 2011
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Like I said in the other Phelps thread I can understand why some people would be happy with the news and I don't think they're wrong to do so, but I don't find any joy in someone's death. Be it Thatcher, Bin Laden, Gadaffi. I didn't feel anything at all and I still don't feel anything now Phelps has gone.

But this? If it were off-topic/user created in general that'd be alright but a featured content article just smells like cashing in. Exploiting peoples emotion and hatred of this figure for some juicy, ad laden click-bait. I used to hold the Escapist to a higher standard but a few recent articles, this one most certainly included, have led me to question that particular belief.
 

RA92

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TaboriHK said:
I think you can count the people who will be mourning his death on one hand, and that includes his family.
Yeah, I doubt that...

http://www.vice.com/read/fred-phelps-has-died

The Hits Never Stopped


Phelps ruled with a literal iron rod. He regularly beat all of his kids, but the most extreme example available to us was when he nearly finished off Nate Phelps on Christmas Day. Nate and Mark had made the fatal error of acquiring some Christmas lights. Fred did not allow Christmas?it was yet more sodomite blasphemy, basically. For his crimes, Nate received more than 200 strokes from an adze handle. He was beaten in 40-stroke batches, alternating with his brother, Mark, who was receiving 20 at a time for slightly lesser crimes. Mark later said he was ?hoping I'd be knocked out, or killed... anything to end the pain."

Apparently, One of His Favorite Tactics Was to Grab Kids by the Hands and Pull Them Upwards, Then Repeatedly Smash His Knee into Their Groin and Stomach, While Walking Across the Room Laughing.

He continued to do this even when they were sexually developed teens. Bit weird, Fred Phelps.



Another excerpt:

He Celebrated the Death of His Son's Girlfriend

In 1970, Debbie Valgos was a sweet local girl who had the misfortune to fall in love with Fred Phelps Jr. The pair tried to elope, but were caught by Fred Sr. Discipline followed, but Debbie was then allowed to attend Westboro services along with Fred Jr. At each one of these, she was called a whore from the pulpit. Despite this, she repeatedly asked Fred Sr. what she needed to do to be allowed to see his son. Not long after, Debbie moved out of town and lost it. By 1972, she was dead of a speed overdose, having already taken half a jar of barbiturates earlier that evening. She was still only 17.

Mark Phelps says, "I remember getting home from school the day it appeared in the papers, and my dad came dancing down the stairs, swaying from the knees and clapping his hands, singing, 'The whore is dead! The whore is dead!' He paraded around the house, singing and laughing with that maniacal giggle he has, 'The whore is dead!?'


... and it goes one...

He?d first read about the new "science of aerobics" on the back of a Wheaties box and had subsequently marched his entire tribe off to the local track, where, from his youngest?who was five?upward, they were all forced to run five miles every day, no matter what the weather.

Soon, he upped that to ten miles a day. Then, they were being made to run a marathon every Saturday.

So yes, not only was a hate-monger, he was an abusive bastard as well.
 

CrazyCapnMorgan

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Major_Tom said:
We celebrated when The Wicked Witch Thatcher died, so we can sure as hell do it for this asshole. Enough with holier-than-thou bullshit.

And though I have an opinion to add to this, it was summed up by former CNBC employee Keith Olbermann years ago.


As an addendum: no matter what you believe, when you infringe upon another person(s) life or liberty, what you believe becomes null and void.
 

Eamar

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WarpedLord said:
It's not his "beliefs" that were the problem, though.

I mean, I STRONGLY disagree with his beliefs, as do almost all of us here, and most people. The fact remains, you're free to BELIEVE what you want, no matter how stupid or f-ed up those beliefs are.

No... what we all have a problem with is his actions. The man did (and led others to do) absolutely despicable things. Hating someone because of their actions isn't bigoted.

You're not a bigot for hating someone who murders a school full of children. You're not a bigot for hating someone who rapes and kills women for fun.

Sure, he may not have been as bad as either of those, but no... you're not a bigot for hating someone who uses the funerals of soldiers who died in the service of their country or innocent children who died in one of the places they should have been truly safe as a damned sounding board for his hatred and evil.
THANK YOU.

It is unbelievably frustrating when people don't get that.

Personally I won't be celebrating (or even really acknowledging it outside of this post), but yes, I'm glad he's dead. Harassing people at their loved one's freaking funeral is one of the most disgusting behaviours I've heard of, especially when the deceased had absolutely nothing to do with him or his organisation >.<
 

RossaLincoln

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Umm, it's totally ok to celebrate the death of a horrible person. Everyone gets to pick where that line is, some it's a Hitler-esque (Or actually Hitler) figure that is ok to hate, for others it could be a cold uncaring father/mother. Fred Phelps ruined a lot of lives and got to be a jolly, media accepted, hate filled man while doing it. Death was and is the only comeuppance to come his way so his victims have to take what they can get.
 

CrazyGirl17

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I know this might make me sound like an asshole, but fuck it, I'm glad that bastard's dead! Glad glad glad! ("Gee, I wonder if she's glad?")

If you disagree, then fine, that's your opinion. Me? I'll be over here, celebrating.
 

RossaLincoln

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Saxnot said:
RossaLincoln said:
I'm celebrating the fact that his hateful legacy failed. Though, and I swear I don't mean to offend, I have no problem considering people who aren't bigots morally superior to people who are, nor do I think it's in bad taste to comment on the legacy of hateful bigots by pointing out how they failed, and hilariously so.

i swear i didn't mean to offend? that's just a straight-up lie. You can't celebrate someone's death (no matter how you justify it) and then claim you don't mean to cause offence. you do. you just don't care about offending people who care about Fred Phelps. That's your own choice to make, but don't pretend we're idiots and come out with some weak excuse like that.

on topic: His later life may have been lived in the name of hate, but i can't judge Phelps as harshly since i learned that he spent much of his earlier life defending black people in civil rights cases (sometimes for free) in Kansas. He stood up to an enormous amount of hate and bigotry defending the rights of his fellow man when few others in his state would. He was more complicated than just a hate preacher. As i see it, he was a man that stood up for his convictions regardless of what the rest of the world thought. I respect that regardless of what i think of the opinions he held, and i don't feel he deserves the 'ding-dong the witch is dead' treatment.
I swear I don't mean to offend the commenter to whom I was replying, meaning I wasn't trying to be a jerk to that person, as was obvious from context. I was not saying my intent wasn't to offend people who think Fred Phelps was a swell guy.

Also, Fred Phelps was permanently disbarred after waging a campaign of sexist harassment against a court reporter who was like 5 seconds late providing some documents to him. He called her a slut on the stand when he sued her, and ultimately perjured himself by providing false evidence in his appeals. So much for his convictions.
 

AzrealMaximillion

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How do you go from
TaboriHK said:
There's absolutely no data on what kind of emotional harm he inflicted on literally hundreds of families.
to this

Fred Phelps was about as ugly as you can get, and he made ugly children, and they all together ruined a lot of people's lives.
And think that its still ok to celebrate a person's death?

And to say he ruined a lot of people's lives and not mention that he also saved alot of people's lives when he represented black people during the Jim Crow era is also kind of funny.

Fred Phelps is a homophobe, but he never advocated for violence or death. He used the funeral picketing to gain attention. Ruining a funeral is tragic, but I'd hardly call it life ruining when the grieving families still have the memories of the deceased. No amount of audible homophobic noise can take that away. The only lives that you could argue the WBC ruined were the family members they excommunicated, but would you really call being booted from a hate group due to not being a homophobe "life ruining"?

He also fought for a group of people that were suffering from laws that meant they could be killed on site by the public with no due process due to the colour of their skin. Fred Phelps statistically has saved more lives that you think he's ruined.

Celebrating the death of someone while only focusing on the part of it you didn't like is irresponsible and tasteless no matter how right you think you are in doing so. Now if Phelps had killed people, you'd have a point to your argument, but Phelps didn't really take anything away from anyone. The picketing of funerals had not one, not two, but three federal laws that rendered their protests mute for almost 10 years. And community members took it upon themselves and blocked the WBC noise from ruining many funerals.

In the end the WBC was resorted to sidewalks because they legally haven't been able to interrupt on since 2006.


Why are people quick to celebrate the death of those who in reality were just all bark and no bite?
 

RossaLincoln

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Woah. I was enjoying this article and was ready to discuss gay characters in superhero comics.

Then.... reading the comments, I realized this article was made to "celebrate" the death of a guy who I assume hated gays (at least so I gathered; these are probably American news and I'm Italian).

Tasteless and disgusting. So, you "celebrate" the death of someone who I assume thought the world was better off without certain people, by claiming the world is better off without him?
Isn't it a bit like saying "let's bring all nazis in concentration camps and torture them"? Isn't it.... becoming the bigotism you're supposedly hating?
 

MacLeRoy

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Speaking of failures, isn't an article considered a failure when an author has to sit in the comments and explain it away?

Celebrating death is NEVER okay, its beneath human. You can write another article explaining this one but that doesn't change the fact that you celebrated a death. To top it off you used the work of others as a device to celebrate this death.

It is wise to consider ethics when writing a public piece of journalism.
 

Hunter Creed

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Zira said:
Woah. I was enjoying this article and was ready to discuss gay characters in superhero comics.

Then.... reading the comments, I realized this article was made to "celebrate" the death of a guy who I assume hated gays (at least so I gathered; these are probably American news and I'm Italian).

Tasteless and disgusting. So, you "celebrate" the death of someone who I assume thought the world was better off without certain people, by claiming the world is better off without him?
Isn't it a bit like saying "let's bring all nazis in concentration camps and torture them"? Isn't it.... becoming the bigotism you're supposedly hating?
If this was just some casual gay basher, people would probably be more like 'meh, another one bites the dust'. But this guy founded the Westborro Baptist Church. They are more or less known for the following.
Waiting until someone dies. Hope it gets on the news. If the funeral is being reported, they will speed there like bats outta hell to get there for the cameras. They would then harass the shit out of anyone coming or leaving the funeral. Signs like 'thank God for dead soldiers', or 'God hates fags'. Shit like that. They also had a nice little habit (IIRC) of getting phone numbers of those that lost someone, and calling to harass them. The whole thing more or less being a giant ploy to get attention and news coverage. All the while destroying peoples lives and kicking those grieving lost loved ones.

You have to wonder if Fred mentally snapped at some point. I mean we're talking about a man who spent years defending black peoples civil rights. His family getting death threats and being called "****** lovers". Yet he stood firm. When the US sent an ambassador (or something or other) to the Vatican, Fred sent a letter saying that was against the separation of church and state. The guy used to be a huge secularist. Then one day he snapped. One has to wonder if this is like picking on some mentally handicapped kid. I mean, could he even help himself? What tweaks in someones head to go from civil rights defending, secularist, general good guy, to gay bashing, Christan, fuckhole?
 

Silvanus

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Zira said:
So, you "celebrate" the death of someone who I assume thought the world was better off without certain people, by claiming the world is better off without him?
Isn't it a bit like saying "let's bring all nazis in concentration camps and torture them"? Isn't it.... becoming the bigotism you're supposedly hating?
Well, not really. Hating people on the basis of their actions is completely different from hating people on the basis of their inherent characteristics.


I'm not saying that celebrating a death is okay (though I think the article itself had value, and that most people here are overlooking the majority of the content of the article, which was primarily targeted at his legacy rather than his person).

MacLeRoy said:
Speaking of failures, isn't an article considered a failure when an author has to sit in the comments and explain it away?
Well, journalism isn't just about bringing people pieces they agree with and leaving it at that. A lot of articles are aimed at provoking debate (and even argument)-- even in traditional media.
 

RossaLincoln

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He was not a nice man and he had some distorted views without a doubt. I will neither mourn or celebrate his death. I worry less about the impact of that entire organisation because their behaviour became so ridiculous that I assume they actually lost what little credibility they may have held with people. Also to be fair I think he is being somewhat over-villified, sure he was a hateful nutcase but he never actually committed any violence (to my knowledge). There are people who hold views like his who are much more dangerous and pervasive. And those on the extreme side of Islam who are more dangerous again while we are on the topic of religious zealots.

My point is just that I feel it is a bit overblown, he is being made out like the reincarnation of Hitler when really he just happened to be the loudest bigot in town. Got more attention than he deserved.
 

earnestp

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AzrealMaximillion said:
How do you go from
TaboriHK said:
There's absolutely no data on what kind of emotional harm he inflicted on literally hundreds of families.
to this

Fred Phelps was about as ugly as you can get, and he made ugly children, and they all together ruined a lot of people's lives.
And think that its still ok to celebrate a person's death?

And to say he ruined a lot of people's lives and not mention that he also saved alot of people's lives when he represented black people during the Jim Crow era is also kind of funny.

Fred Phelps is a homophobe, but he never advocated for violence or death. He used the funeral picketing to gain attention. Ruining a funeral is tragic, but I'd hardly call it life ruining when the grieving families still have the memories of the deceased. No amount of audible homophobic noise can take that away. The only lives that you could argue the WBC ruined were the family members they excommunicated, but would you really call being booted from a hate group due to not being a homophobe "life ruining"?

He also fought for a group of people that were suffering from laws that meant they could be killed on site by the public with no due process due to the colour of their skin. Fred Phelps statistically has saved more lives that you think he's ruined.

Celebrating the death of someone while only focusing on the part of it you didn't like is irresponsible and tasteless no matter how right you think you are in doing so. Now if Phelps had killed people, you'd have a point to your argument, but Phelps didn't really take anything away from anyone. The picketing of funerals had not one, not two, but three federal laws that rendered their protests mute for almost 10 years. And community members took it upon themselves and blocked the WBC noise from ruining many funerals.

In the end the WBC was resorted to sidewalks because they legally haven't been able to interrupt on since 2006.


Why are people quick to celebrate the death of those who in reality were just all bark and no bite?
What a ridiculous argument. First, no amount of good work that Phelps did early in his life mitigates the work that he did later. If anything it shows a de-evolution of his character from compassionate to cruel. Now, this article couldn't be farther away from dancing on Phelps' grave. The intent of this article couldn't be clearer. It recognized the death of a bigot who dedicated his life to making life miserable for gay people by illustrating the progress our society has made in its acceptance and recognition of gay people, in this case in the pages of comics. THAT is what is being celebrated here. Finally, to suggest that he was all bark and no bite is specious. We live in a country in which it was literally illegal to be gay in public a generation ago, and in which sex acts between gay males were illegal in PRIVATE until this century! Phelps spent years creating a public spectacle of hate, which right-minded people may have laughed at, but that actually fed a lot of the anti-gay bigotry that still silently made life miserable for gays. When he picketed a funeral, he wasn't just making life miserable for that family, he was making life miserable for ALL gay people. Not being gay, it is easy to laugh at the efforts of the WBC because you don't have to deal with any of the other discrimination and hatred that the WBC's protests were just a part of.

Now, having said all that, I say we should celebrate his death EVERY YEAR, and we should do it by celebrating the ways in which our society has become more tolerant. Make this post the first of such celebrations.
 

RossaLincoln

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Way I see it, anyone who hates too fervently a group, wether based on race or sex or beliefs, has deep psychological issues.
And then other, less insane but still not completely healthy people, use this crazy guy as the cover for their own hatred, which is again caused by their own personal issues which they project onto someone else because hating yourself is impossible.

This is how Nazism came to be: millions of unemployed people who were suffering, and all that suffering caused hate, and all that hate used madman Hitler as their cover.

So, hate the predicament, but don't hate the person. If you hate the person, you will end up becoming like him, because what this person did was to hate so much he did no longer see others as people with feelings and rights. And you mustn't hate this person enough to ignore that he's still a human like all of us, with feelings and rights. Otherwise it means YOU have issues of needing to project your hate onto someone, too.

Of course all this is easy to say when, like me, you've never experienced first-hand nazism or, in this case, strong homosexual discrimination. I'll give you that.

But I just think it's in very bad taste to write "good riddance" about a person's death.
 

lord canti

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Nobody hates this man for his beliefs, if he was just another bigot then most everyone would have just shrugged their shoulders and went on. This man, however, started a hate group who's sole purpose is to spread hate and attack people when they are at their most vulnerable.While he did not cause any physical harm, one can only imagine the amount of mental and emotional damage he and his church have brought. As for me, I really don't care about his death, it's not worth the time or energy to do so, but I understand why several people are glad that he's gone.
 

ChristopherT

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I just don't like hate, takes too much energy to hate someone whom I never even met. In his last few years of life, he did some rather bad things, now he's dead, we can move on, no more breath has to be wasted on him, the rest of the group is still around, still spreading hate - when Hitler left this world the war soon ended, this guy, not so much. So why care? It's one dead person, for everything that means.
 

Vivi22

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Rebel_Raven said:
Still, part of me feels bad a guy died, no matter what his views were.
I've got no problem feeling good about his death. Fact is, there are people in the world that are absolutely horrible, actively choose to make the world a worse place with their time here, and are worthy of complete derision and shouldn't be given a modicum of respect. He falls into that category. His existence dragged everyone down and I look forward to his little group continuing to slowly dwindle as the rest of the world moves on and leaves them behind to die as ignorant and hateful as they choose to be.
 

Vivi22

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Houseman said:
"Good riddance"?
As in the earth is better off without him?

Isn't that what he thought about certain people?
The people he thought that about haven't spent their lives trying to make other people miserable and deny millions equal rights and protections under the law.

There's no hypocrisy in it if you hate the man for the right reasons. He chose to use his existence on this planet to actively make the lives of others worse. People like that actively detract from having a civil and equitable society for no other reason than they find a certain type of people icky because of how they were born, even when it doesn't affect anyone else directly. It's wrong to hate people for that reason; not to hate people for choosing to be ignorant, hateful fucks.
 

RossaLincoln

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Vivi22 said:
Houseman said:
"Good riddance"?
As in the earth is better off without him?

Isn't that what he thought about certain people?
The people he thought that about haven't spent their lives trying to make other people miserable and deny millions equal rights and protections under the law.

There's no hypocrisy in it if you hate the man for the right reasons. He chose to use his existence on this planet to actively make the lives of others worse. People like that actively detract from having a civil and equitable society for no other reason than they find a certain type of people icky because of how they were born, even when it doesn't affect anyone else directly. It's wrong to hate people for that reason; not to hate people for choosing to be ignorant, hateful fucks.

Allow me to disagree. Hate is always hate.

So you're saying your hate is right, his hate was wrong?

There is no hate that is right. Because hate is always wishing someone's misery. And wishing someone's misery is always for a**holes.
 

TaboriHK

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AzrealMaximillion said:
You are free to your views on Fred Phelps, and I never disputed that. I'm also free to mine. My point was never "we should all be celebrating the death of a human being," my point is there is going to be an emotional gradient, especially when it comes to people he or his awful family directly affected. Emotion is the antithesis of logic, for better and for worse. For those who were emotionally affected by the WBC people, many have enjoyed this, and while you may view that as immature or low, it's just as human as your reaction of empathy.
 

Saltyk

Sane among the insane.
Sep 12, 2010
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RossaLincoln said:
I'm celebrating the fact that his hateful legacy failed. Though, and I swear I don't mean to offend, I have no problem considering people who aren't bigots morally superior to people who are, nor do I think it's in bad taste to comment on the legacy of hateful bigots by pointing out how they failed, and hilariously so.
Braedan said:
Major_Tom said:
We celebrated when The Wicked Witch Thatcher died, so we can sure as hell do it for this asshole. Enough with holier-than-thou bullshit.
Here here!

Get off your high horses people. An asshole died, and I'm going to drink a beer to celebrate the world becoming a better place.
Here's something I learned after reading an article that references it on another site and looking it up. Fred Phelps worked as a lawyer. In fact, he worked on a lot of Civil Right's cases and was even given an award from the Bonner Springs Branch of the NAACP for his work. He also sued President Ronald Reagen for appointing an ambassador to the Vatican on Separation of Church and State Grounds, though it was dismissed.

I am in no way advocating for his Westboro Baptist Church (truth be told I hate them, it's a sad day when you make the KKK look good). However, that doesn't mean he isn't entitled to his opinion and nothing he did, including the picketing of the funeral, was illegal. The Supreme Court even upheld their right to do so, which I agree with, regardless of my feelings on the actions themselves.

I am not unhappy to see him die, nor do I dance on his grave. At the end of the day, he was just a man. Like any man he holds his own views, some of which people may agree with or not. I happen to disagree with his stance on Gay Rights and wish he would have stopped picketing funerals.

You give him far more power than he ever actually held in the Gay Rights debate by hating him. He never had any actual impact on it. If anything, he probably helped Gay Rights by his actions.

The man died. Leave him in Peace.
 

Saxnot

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RossaLincoln said:
I swear I don't mean to offend the commenter to whom I was replying, meaning I wasn't trying to be a jerk to that person, as was obvious from context. I was not saying my intent wasn't to offend people who think Fred Phelps was a swell guy.

Also, Fred Phelps was permanently disbarred after waging a campaign of sexist harassment against a court reporter who was like 5 seconds late providing some documents to him. He called her a slut on the stand when he sued her, and ultimately perjured himself by providing false evidence in his appeals. So much for his convictions.
you might not have meant to offend (for example) AzrealMaximillion specifically, but if he is offended by the fact you're celebrating someone's death (and you are), then your article is offensive to him. There's no miscommunication here. you're glad Phelps is dead, you wrote an article about it, then somone got offended about your article celebrating Phelp's death. The thing that is offensive is the message and intention of article.

You accepted someone might take offense, and decided your need to share your happiness about phelp's death was of greater importance than the feelings of someone who feels celebrating anyone's death is tasteless. Take some responsibility for the things you write.

Regarding his disbarment: Nobody's saying he was a nice guy. But sexual harassment and picketing funerals are in the balance against fighting a hostile and racist justice system for the right of black people to go to school.
To me, fighting against the racism of an actively hostile society is more admirable than standing around with some signs is reprehensible.

Reading anything about the life of this man you get the impression he needed something to fight against. Be it Jim Crow, 'the gay agenda', the military, the American government or all of western civilisation. He had his convictions, and he wanted people to oppose him. Some of the things he opposed , i oppose, most things he opposed, i support. but however that may be, he deserves credit for the good he did in his life, as much as he deserves condemnation for the evil.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Vivi22 said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Still, part of me feels bad a guy died, no matter what his views were.
I've got no problem feeling good about his death. Fact is, there are people in the world that are absolutely horrible, actively choose to make the world a worse place with their time here, and are worthy of complete derision and shouldn't be given a modicum of respect. He falls into that category. His existence dragged everyone down and I look forward to his little group continuing to slowly dwindle as the rest of the world moves on and leaves them behind to die as ignorant and hateful as they choose to be.
Yeah, his legacy doesn't leave him heavily grieved to say the least. I'm aware of the damage he did, though the LGBT would be hated with or without him, but wouldn't it have been better if he changed his ways before he died? Sure it'd have been unlikely.

Believe me, WBC might dwindle, but, well, to put it bluntly, the LGBT community is far from being accepted, especially when people are told to hate them by something/one they believe strongly in. The WBC doesn't hold a monopoly on hatred of others.

I get why he's hated, believe me. I'm not a fan of him either.
 

michael87cn

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It's okay to celebrate someones death, but not disagree with peoples sexuality. That's a crime worthy of death! Death for everyone! Death all around! But don'tcha be hating on mah sexuality, now. That there is offensive! So offensive I WANT YOU TO DIE!

.... Ugh.

Disgusting. Weird. Perverted.... That's what humans are. We sit around and think we're so much better than everyone around us, but we've all done terrible things that we're ashamed of... luckiy most of us escape public scrutiny for our crimes, our moments of evil.

In our fear of what we've done, we scurry in little bands and clash glasses together, lynching people so that we can feel better about ourselves... surely, that person is so much worse than us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMT1Ig38Buc
 

MatsVS

Tea & Grief
Nov 9, 2009
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We should celebrate his death and spit on his memory. The man was trash and moral pussy-footing around that is doing a disservice to the hundreds of people who suffered under his biggotry. Let people take a measure of joy in knowing that the world is a slightly better place now that he's gone so that we can move on t forgetting him.
 

Johkmil

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Good riddance is the right term to commemorate the passing of Fred Phelps. Had he died some thirty years ago, he would have died as a great champion of civil rights, but he chose another path in his late life. I would never picket his funeral, but I see no sin in criticizing him in the media after his death. Commemorating his memory means remembering all of his actions, not just the noble ones. The legacy he tried to build during his late life will crumble to dust together with his buried coffin, and the world will be a better place for it.
 

Zeterai

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I may be wrong, but hadn't that guy protested funerals in the past or some such? I don't feel bad about celebrating his - personally, I'm just of the opinion that disrespecting others who have died makes you completely fair game to be disrespected when you do.
 

Techno Squidgy

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While some of the things that are being said make me feel somewhat uncomfortable, I don't condemn anyone for celebrating his death. I'd probably feel the same way if the WBC had been more real to me. However, once everyone has their celebrations I think it would be for the best for everyone to let that hate go. He's dead, he can't spread his twisted ideas any more, and holding on to that hate won't do any one any good. Let his memory fade into obscurity.
 

LiMaSaRe

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RossaLincoln said:
I swear I don't mean to offend
In the future, when you want to avoid offense, I'd recommend not saying good riddance of a man whose corpse is barely cold.
If the Westboro Baptists are most famous for disrespecting funerals, then you have quite deliberately set yourself on the same moral level.
 

RossaLincoln

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ChristopherT said:
when Hitler left this world the war soon ended
Not quite, because Japan wasn't all that impressed and had to be nuked.

Zira said:
Isn't it a bit like saying "let's bring all nazis in concentration camps and torture them"? Isn't it.... becoming the bigotism you're supposedly hating?
There was a plan by Jews to kill millions by poisoning tap water systems in major West German cities. Yes, it was after the war.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jul/26/second.world.war

He spoke passionately, invoking Psalm 94, in which God promises that he shall deal with the enemies of the people of Israel: "He will repay them for their iniquity and wipe them out for their wickedness." This, Kovner suggested, was the fate that should be meted out to the Germans.
Btw, Phelps subscribed to a similarily fundamentalist form of Judeochristianity.

Kovner sought moral backing for his project, travelling to Palestine to consult the leaders of the Jewish state-in-waiting. He met Chaim Weizmann, who would become Israel's first president and who had begun his career (at Manchester University) as a research chemist. Once Weizmann heard from Kovner the horrors of the Holocaust, he could mount no resistance: he gave his blessing to the Avengers, even offering them help in acquiring the poison. (Several sources suggest Weizmann approved only Plan B, rather than the more deadly, and arbitrary, Plan A.)
Geez, guys. You're not helping your reputation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_poisoning#Medieval_accusations_against_Jews

Yet Plan A never happened. Kovner, with two canisters of poison in his backpack, was arrested by British military police while on a ship bound for Europe: he had been betrayed. The Avengers came to believe that the highest echelons of the Zionist hierarchy had heard of Plan A and were determined to thwart it, not least because they feared such a massive slaughter would fatally undermine the moral claim Zionism was making after the Holocaust - that as a people who had endured near-annihilation, the Jews had won the right to a home of their own.
 

AzrealMaximillion

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earnestp said:
I say we should celebrate his death EVERY YEAR, and we should do it by celebrating the ways in which our society has become more tolerant. Make this post the first of such celebrations.
You do realize that in doing so you'd be carrying on his legacy of hate by giving the WBC a yearly dose of attention. Attention that would lead to people hearing their hate.

So you'd be helping their cause in essence.


Bravo, you've found me another reason why celebrating someone's death is asinine.

Edit:
First, no amount of good work that Phelps did early in his life mitigates the work that he did later.
Tell that to the people who's lives he saved by representing them in the Jim Crow era when no one else would. It's not about mitigating the mans works. It's about looking at his life as a whole.
 

TAGM

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The irony of it all: One of the first times I've seen LGBTs in comics discussed here in any sort of positive light, and it's ultimately only done so you - and I suppose all of us as well, considering the comments - can do a metaphorical fandango on someone's grave while the body is still warm enough.

I mean, as much as I disagreed with his opinions and such, I can't help but keep thinking that he's a human being. I'm not asking that we all suddenly morn him as if he's a great man, but we don't all need to line up and continue shitting on his headstone before the body's even cold, surely. A modicum of decorum is all I ask, and hell, you don't even need to do that. Continue calling him a hateful bigot if you want; he defiantly did enough to earn that credit.
But we almost definitely Don't need to start dragging LGBT representation through this dirt as some sort of "har har fuck you" kinda thing. Now I can't help but think that my thinking of these comics and the good things they did is going to be forever tempered by the thought that someone fought to the death against them and people waved them in his barely-dead face going "HAR HAR YOU FUCKING FAILED YOU IDIOTIC CUNTFLAP! SUCK ON THE DEVIL'S PITCHFORK YOU HATEFUL SCUM!"

I'm not asking that everyone suddenly change your emotions: That's impossible. I'm not even saying that not keeping quiet is a bad thing to do. It's more that keeping quiet is a good thing to do, if you get me - the more moral action. I say again: Not keeping quiet, spewing hatred and bile at a man you hate and feel deserves bile? Perfectly acceptable. Understandable. But rising above that? Considering him just, in the end, a man worthy of at least peaceful rest? Well, that just feels more right to me. Even if he did cause problems to others, it's ultimately something he wasn't 100% in control of: His beliefs, and the passion he had for those beliefs, and the actions he took because of said passion, it all seems like it was almost inevitable. He's not a monster: more a lost man.
 

RossaLincoln

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Zeterai said:
I may be wrong, but hadn't that guy protested funerals in the past or some such? I don't feel bad about celebrating his - personally, I'm just of the opinion that disrespecting others who have died makes you completely fair game to be disrespected when you do.
And I freely encourage people who hate me to make fun of me when I die if my life's work is a complete failure. Of course, I won't have spent my life devoted to the eradication of rights for an entire group of people, but ok.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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In this thread: People who normally claim that morality is relative suddenly claim that a moral standard exists in order to justify their burning hate.
 

vagabondwillsmile

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RossaLincoln said:
Good Riddance, Fred Phelps: 5 Pivotal Moments For LGBTs In Comics

To mark the passing of a bigot, let's look at how gay people have fared on the pages of American comic books.

Read Full Article
I owe you a belated appology. I had no idea the extent of just how horrible this group and its leaders are at the time I posted. Anyway, disregard any and all criticism - constructive as I intended it to be - in my previous post. My apologies.