Ground Zeroes Rape Apologists Baffle Me

[RA92]

Edit: I'm not literally calling anyone rape apologist. I was just being cheeky.

Do you honestly think that right after the trauma of being gang raped and being forced into statutory rape, the victim would immediately go back to having sex with her 13 year old rapist? What? She's been raped till she enjoyed it? That's not dark and realistic - that's a plot line out of a bad porno.

And when your tape doesn't even move the main storyline (it's an easter egg (EDIT: Fine, side content. I'm glad people latch on to important things.)) and runs for 10 minutes, then you're just indulging, Kojima. Wilful and pointless violence doesn't automatically make your content matured. Also, try not to mark it as a <url=http://i.imgur.com/xCyai9g.png>reward.

And you can't tell me there's no weird sexual undertone to the whole extended operation, with the camera lovingly gazing on her stitches being opened, all the while Paz screaming in the background, all of it verging on the precipice of torture porn...

The developers were, after all, already perving out on Paz in Peace Walker.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110220130547/metalgear/images/9/94/110129161005.JPG

Such character development!

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110927174310/metalgear/images/c/cd/500x_735cc3e1.jpg

Kojima is a hack writer, and he is rightly derided for mishandling such a delicate topic.

 

[shrekfan246]

People who make weirdly unnecessary rants whacking at strawmen all while completely misunderstanding or misappropriating the actual events of the game they're talking about baffle me.

Seriously, is this really going to be the next big nontroversy the gaming community latches on to? Murder is a pretty damn sensitive topic too, and yet people never seem to have a problem with the mass murdering that almost every game has you do throughout its running time.

 

[hazabaza1]

I haven't played the games so I don't know enough about it but there's a few things to be mentioned:

Even in Peace Walker, Paz was at least 20-ish. I forget why but she was pretending to be 16 for some reason or another. Not planning on talking about the difference between how someone looks and their actual age but Paz has never been "underage" in any game in the series.

Secondly, just because something can be found outside of the main story in a game doesn't make it an easter egg, it makes it side content. Using the wikipeida definition, an easter egg is "an intentional inside joke, hidden message, or feature in a work." Usually non-canon and included for fun, not canonical story information.
See here [http://www.gamesradar.com/100-best-easter-eggs-all-time/] for examples.

Also this.

People who make weirdly unnecessary rants whacking at strawmen all while completely misunderstanding or misappropriating the actual events of the game they're talking about baffle me.

Seriously, is this really going to be the next big nontroversy the gaming community latches on to? Murder is a pretty damn sensitive topic too, and yet people never seem to have a problem with the mass murdering that almost every game has you do throughout its running time.

 

[anthony87]

What a coincidence, here I was just thinking about how people complaining about Ground Zeroes without knowing what the hell they're talking about baffle me.

As for the tape, it's not an easter egg. The fact that you think it's an easter egg just shows how far you're jumping to conclusions.

Question for you OP, did you even listen to the tape or play the game? Or are you just here straight from that Nerd3 video that kicked off this latest round of moral posturing?

 

[RA92]

Seriously, is this really going to be the next big nontroversy the gaming community latches on to? Murder is a pretty damn sensitive topic too, and yet people never seem to have a problem with the mass murdering that almost every game has you do throughout its running time.

Killing can be justified - ranging from pop cultural depictions of wronged people seeking revenge to patriotism asking you to kill foreigners attacking your country. Rape is never justified.

And death in videogames is always portrayed unrealistically. Hitting people with a car in Saints Row and seeing them ragdolling away is more hilarious than traumatizing, and the characters in Soul Calibur won't be standing in real life after being face-stabbed several times. Video game doesn't usually depict death in such detailed manner. I would suggest you give this video a watch for further explanation.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6692-Desensitized-to-Violence

Killing can be impersonal (you never give a second thought to the pedestrians you run over in GTA). Rape is intensely personal. They aren't the same thing.

 

[shrekfan246]

Seriously, is this really going to be the next big nontroversy the gaming community latches on to? Murder is a pretty damn sensitive topic too, and yet people never seem to have a problem with the mass murdering that almost every game has you do throughout its running time.

Killing can be justified - ranging from pop cultural depictions of wronged people seeking revenge to patriotism asking you to kill foreigners attacking your country. Rape is never justified.

Revenge is not an excuse for killing. Patriotism is a shitty excuse for killing.

That is, in the real world.

Rape is not some sacred ground which can't be tread upon by the media.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6692-Desensitized-to-Violence

Killing can be impersonal (you never give a second thought to the pedestrians you run over in GTA). Rape is intensely personal. They aren't the same thing.

I follow the Jimquisition quite regularly, thank you. And you know what? I don't play Grand Theft Auto. For various reasons, but one of which is that I don't find running over pedestrians to be that entertaining. It wasn't what kept me playing Saints Row: The Third, it wasn't what kept me playing Sleeping Dogs.

Being impersonal doesn't reduce the actual impact of the actions. The only reason people are desensitized to violence in video games is because it's been so prevalent in the media over the past few decades that people don't even give it a second thought anymore. And honestly? That's a damn shame, because it leads to situations like this one.

 

[RA92]

Question for you OP, did you even listen to the tape or play the game? Or are you just here straight from that Nerd3 video that kicked off this latest round of moral posturing?

Yes, I listened to the tape, right after watching the ZP review. I haven't played the demo yet ($40 is too steep), but I'm familiar with MGS games, and thus familiar with the tone of the series.

 

[DarkishFriend]

Just stopped by to say before this gets even more out of hand Paz is not underage.

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Paz_Ortega_Andrade

 

[RA92]

Revenge is not an excuse for killing. Patriotism is a shitty excuse for killing.

That is, in the real world.

Even to protect yourself and your loved ones from harm? I'm not talking about things like extrajudicial killings of civilians. Are you certain there are absolutely no cases where killing is justified?

Rape is not some sacred ground which can't be tread upon by the media.


Oh, trust me, the media not only treads, but tramples all over this trope regularly.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsDrama
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsBackstory
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAndRevenge



I follow the Jimquisition quite regularly, thank you. And you know what? I don't play Grand Theft Auto. For various reasons, but one of which is that I don't find running over pedestrians to be that entertaining. It wasn't what kept me playing Saints Row: The Third, it wasn't what kept me playing Sleeping Dogs.


What's the harm? An ambulance comes fixes up your dead pedestrian in GTA just fine. The people you kill in CoD come back in the next round of multiplayer. Fighting game characters never retain permanent injuries. Videogame death is far removed from real death.

Being impersonal doesn't reduce the actual impact of the actions. The only reason people are desensitized to violence in video games is because it's been so prevalent in the media over the past few decades that people don't even give it a second thought anymore. And honestly? That's a damn shame, because it leads to situations like this one.[/quote]

You watched the Jimquisition video, but did you go through the comments? If people were really so desensitized to death, then why were so many people disturbed with the footage of Bud shooting himself? Once again, videogame death is far removed from real death.

 

[lacktheknack]

And death in videogames is always portrayed unrealistically. Hitting people with a car in Saints Row and seeing them ragdolling away is more hilarious than traumatizing, and the characters in Soul Calibur won't be standing in real life after being face-stabbed several times.

Me and a friend watched Vampire's Kiss, starring Nicolas Cage at his absolute Cagiest. At the end of the second act, there's a rape scene that's played completely straight, and we laughed non-stop through the whole thing for various reasons.

Is it OK now, because we found it hilarious and unrealistic?

 

[RA92]

Just stopped by to say before this gets even more out of hand Paz is not underage.

http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Paz_Ortega_Andrade

Edited for accuracy. Though you would need a pretty big disclaimer with that character design. How many 20-year-olds wear school uniforms?

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091020135923/metalgear/images/b/bb/Mgspw-paz-cg.jpg

 

[lacktheknack]

Edited for accuracy. Though you would need a pretty big disclaimer with that character design. How many 20-year-olds wear school uniforms?

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091020135923/metalgear/images/b/bb/Mgspw-paz-cg.jpg

In Japan? Presumably all of them.

The rule of thumb for Japanese characters is take their apparent age and add ten. Look at Corpse Party for the PSP - I was SURE that Yuka was six or seven, but apparently, she's a middle-schooler.

 

[shrekfan246]

Revenge is not an excuse for killing. Patriotism is a shitty excuse for killing.

That is, in the real world.

Even to protect yourself and your loved ones from harm? I'm not talking about things like extrajudicial killings of civilians. Are you certain there are absolutely no cases where killing is justified?

Self-defense is the best justification killing has, and even that is a tentative one at best.

What's the harm? An ambulance comes fixes up your dead pedestrian in GTA just fine. The people you kill in CoD come back in the next round of multiplayer. Fighting game characters never retain permanent injuries. Videogame death is far removed from real death.

You really don't see the irony in saying that for murder but not saying it for rape?

You watched the Jimquisition video, but did you go through the comments? If people were really so desensitized to death, then why were so many people disturbed with the footage of Bud shooting himself? Once again, videogame death is far removed from real death.

The only reason people are desensitized to violence in video games

Once again, you don't see the irony in holding completely different standards for video game violence and video game rape? Most video games have extremely flimsy justifications for the level of hyper-violence the player is going to commit, if they even provide justification in the first place.

Rape and murder are not the same thing (I'm saying it because I can already predict you trying to come at me again with that angle). But both are extremely terrible and potentially psychologically scarring for the people impacted by them. If you're going to use the "far removed from reality" argument in favor of one, you should at least remain consistent with the other.

 

[RA92]

Me and a friend watched Vampire's Kiss, starring Nicolas Cage at his absolute Cagiest. At the end of the second act, there's a rape scene that's played completely straight, and we laughed non-stop through the whole thing for various reasons.

Is it OK now, because we found it hilarious and unrealistic?

Haven't watched it, so I can't comment on that.

GZ isn't trying to be a Cage movie, though. It's trying to do a 'realistic' depiction of rape, showing a victim immediately going back to having sex with her underage assailant.

Edited for accuracy. Though you would need a pretty big disclaimer with that character design. How many 20-year-olds wear school uniforms?

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091020135923/metalgear/images/b/bb/Mgspw-paz-cg.jpg

In Japan? Presumably all of them.

The rule of thumb for Japanese characters is take their apparent age and add ten. Look at Corpse Party for the PSP - I was SURE that Yuka was six or seven, but apparently, she's a middle-schooler.

I find the oh-she-looks-underage-but-she's-totally-older explanation incredibly convenient.

 

[anthony87]

Question for you OP, did you even listen to the tape or play the game? Or are you just here straight from that Nerd3 video that kicked off this latest round of moral posturing?

Yes, I listened to the tape, right after watching the ZP review. I haven't played the demo yet ($40 is too steep), but I'm familiar with MGS games, and thus familiar with the tone of the series.

So then you'd know that something like the interrogation from Ground Zeroes isn't exactly breaking new ground what with Eva being Volgin's punching bag/fuck toy in MGS3?

Where was all the hullabaloo about that?

 

[lacktheknack]

Haven't watched it, so I can't comment on that.

GZ isn't trying to be a Cage movie, though. It's trying to do a 'realistic' depiction of rape, showing a victim immediately going back to having sex with her underage assailant.

Well, it's not the first or last time that gaming has had a nasty take on rape and its psychological effects. Ever played Silent Hill 2?

...What exactly IS wrong with depicting a victim with Stockholm Syndrome? You do realize that these are people that exist, right?

I find the oh-she-looks-underage-but-she's-totally-older explanation incredibly convenient.

k

 

[RA92]

Rape and murder are not the same thing (I'm saying it because I can already predict you trying to come at me again with that angle). But both are extremely terrible and potentially psychologically scarring for the people impacted by them. If you're going to use the "far removed from reality" argument in favor of one, you should at least remain consistent with the other.

My argument was the depiction of killing. People did complain about the ugliness of CODBLOPS2, which had graphic scenes of people burning to death, or the civilian killings of MW2, or the killing of the child in MW3. All for the sake of vacuous shock value.

I never bought Mortal Kombat 2011 because it made me uncomfortable. The original one was lo-fi enough to be hilarious, but the new one crossed a certain boundary for me. It's the difference between a porn rape where the 'victim' is willfully fellating the 'assailant' without being prompted, and seeing Monica Bellucci brutalized in Irreversible.

 

[shrekfan246]

It's the difference between a porn rape where the 'victim' is willfully fellating the 'assailant' without being prompted, and seeing Monica Bellucci brutalized in Irreversible.

And you realize that -
1. In Ground Zeroes, only one sexual encounter is actually confirmed to have happened, everything else is speculation on the part of the player (yes, admittedly heavily implied by contextual cues)

2. Chico, the 13-year-old "assailant" you're going on about, is a P.O.W. just like Paz (EDIT: And is there because of Paz) and the two of them are trying to hold their sanity together in an awful situation

3. No depiction of rape ever actually explicitly happens where the player can hear or see it. EDIT: At least to my knowledge. I may have missed something, I suppose, but probably no more than someone who has only watched a Youtube video or two.

Right? You realize all of that, yes?

 

[RA92]

So then you'd know that something like the interrogation from Ground Zeroes isn't exactly breaking new ground what with Eva being Volgin's punching bag/fuck toy in MGS3?

Where was all the hullabaloo about that?

I see it's the there-was-always-sexism-in-MGS defense. Guess what? People grow up. Their outlook changes.

For instance, I found the Beauty & the Beast units ridiculous in MGS4. Here are 4 units with outrageously tragic back stories - now take some time off and sexualize them by having some sexy photo shoot, undermining whatever thematic weight you managed to garner previously.

I would rather not have such a raging horny guy who sexualizes almost all his female characters (zip up, Sniper Wolf) trying to depict sexual violence.

 

[The Lunatic]

You know, you can just like... Not buy the game?

I mean, I probably won't be. For other reasons, but, if you don't like something, don't buy it.

I mean, I know "Creative Freedom" is a pretty catch-all term, but, these people have the right to make whatever they want in a video game. Just as you have the right to not buy it.


I understand anger at a series if you're fond of it and it takes a sudden turn, but, this is a pretty common thing in MGS, and you don't really seem to like the series anyway based on what you've said thus far.