Gun advocate mocks Australia's tough laws

[Vivi22]

A US gun lobbyist has said Australia is not on the same planet as the US when dismissing the success of Australian gun control laws.

It's true. What works in Australia doesn't translate very well into another country vastly larger, with actual physical neighboring nations and a vastly different culture.

I'm not arguing either side and I personally couldn't give more than one-half of two fucks about anyone mentioned in that article or their opinions.

But that's not the point of the article. The point is that this guy is basically saying that because America is different and because gun control wouldn't get rid of all crime, nothing at all should be done. Even if it would save at least some lives.

Nobody is saying that America is the same as Australia. What is being said is that Australia is an example of how better gun control can at least save some lives, but there's a fairly fringe element in the US that don't think even some saved lives are worth any gun control. I'm quite comfortable calling these fringe thinkers lunatics.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Oi, u wna go m8? Cum ovr ere an say that 2 my fac, cheeky c*nt.

No but really, I sort of agree with Mr. Van Cleave. Switzerland has a massive level of gun ownership because the vast majority of people undergo compulsory military training and can keep their guns afterwards. Not quite the same percentages as the USA, but drastically lower gun crime. Which means basically that there are countries with both attitudes towards guns that manage to be fairly peaceful. The difference is that people are less sensible with them in the US than they are in Switzerland. You can't copy paste methods from other countries to sort out your own national problems, you need a tailored approach.

It is pretty hilarious though that the "criminals will get them anyway, why not Zoidberg everyone" approach, taken to its logical conclusion, is you might as well legalise everything because criminals don't follow laws.

Switzerland has pretty different Gun Laws though. Yes you are allowed to keep your service weapon at home but only in a gunsafe and you are not allowed ammunition for it outside of gunranges unless you are on the rapid callup list.

This was to reduce the rate of suicides and murder-suicides that having easily accessible firearms engenders.

They have lower crime but that is far more likely to be due to the far lower poverty rate.

Jeah let me throw in my 2cents there.
We've a big problem with said service weapon. That thing is a fully automatic assault rifle and we've a bunch of shootings/suicides with that weapon every year. And every few years there are votes if soldiers have to give back the weapons after their service, because they're of no use at home anyway.

And no, you do not have to keep them in a gun safe. Mine is directly behind me, next to my wardrobe, fully functional. The harder part is gettin' some ammunition

But besides that we've stricter gun laws, that's true. We're a country of bureaucracy so it's alot of paperwork to be able to buy one of the fuggers.
And as Mechanized said: We've a diffrent approach to it. Most men (and a bunch of women) undergo service + we've alot of shooting ranges, since recreational shooting is a big thing in our country (probably due to having a weapon at home). Specially underaged "Jungschützen" clubs.
It's an honor and a big responsability to have that weapon and you'll get drilled accordingly. It's not just some cool pewpew toy.

That's the diffrence, when i think of 'murica & guns i picture the Simpsons episode where Homer uses his pistol to do everything from turning off the light to switching tv-channels.

PS: Gunsafes for our service weapons, i really laughed when i read this. I know nobody, whos weapon isn't lying around somewhere or is just in the cellar.

 

[Mr F.]

As an Australia: Piss off Mr. Van Cleave.

We use our fists in Australia. It's manlier than guns!

On a serious note, I'm glad we have tough laws on guns. Feels nice knowing I can just leg it from most muggers who aren't smart enough to corner me.

YOU ARE AN AUSTRALIA!?

First time I have ever talked to a continent. What's it like, being a Continent?

OT:

Daily show would be better without the laugh tracks. And some of the shitter jokes. It was entertaining to watch the interviews.

Would say more but I have essays to hand in.

 

[Angie7F]

I remember being in Australia when the firearm law was passed.
Also Japan is very strict with knives and guns.

So growing up in these two countries I dont understand why getting rid of guns is so hard.

One more thing, didn't President Marcos take away guns in the Philippines?

 

[Thaluikhain]

I remember being in Australia when the firearm law was passed.
Also Japan is very strict with knives and guns.

So growing up in these two countries I dont understand why getting rid of guns is so hard.

One more thing, didn't President Marcos take away guns in the Philippines?

To be fair, there weren't that many guns in Australia to get rid of to begin with. Australia had reasonable tight gun laws before that, and not much of an entrenched gun culture.

 

[Something Amyss]

The guy really didn't know what he was talking about to begin with. It's hard NOT to come off as a clown when you're that thick.

This was on the Daily Show?

Ayup.

 

[Deathmageddon]

Well, yeah... Australia is an island that can more easily control what gets into the country and we have serious issues with people getting across our border. Not to mention all the drug cartels in Mexico that could easily supply our gangs with guns. Oh, and... FREEDOM.

 

[Killclaw Kilrathi]

As an Australia: Piss off Mr. Van Cleave.

We use our fists in Australia. It's manlier than guns!

On a serious note, I'm glad we have tough laws on guns. Feels nice knowing I can just leg it from most muggers who aren't smart enough to corner me.

Exactly this.

I've mentioned it before on these forums, but as a security worker I for one like the fact that none of the brain-dead yobbos we have to deal with can wave around a gun. I know it's on my side but I don't even have to look at the statistics; these sorts of people WILL cause violent crimes and gang warfare if they could be armed. Most are too cowardly to start anything with fists or knives, but guns have that weird effect on irresponsible people that makes them feel invincible.

Don't get me wrong, if you're a professional shooter who's responsible and keeps their gun locked away I have no problem with you. But the current laws are harsh because of the idiots who WOULDN'T be responsible, and believe me there are a lot more of them than you think and you wouldn't want them to have guns either if you met them. Strict gun regulations are a small price to pay for the level of public safety it provides behind the scenes.

EDIT: And please don't give me that garbage about the black market and only innocent people losing their firearms. It's basically an insane argument that we shouldn't have laws because criminals will just break them. That's what law enforcement is for, and they do a pretty damn good job in Australia when it comes to stamping out weapons trade. Good enough that the vast majority have exactly zero access to it. Maybe if the US didn't repeatedly cut funding to the ATF they'd actually be able to do their jobs.

 

[Evilpigeon]

It's always strange to me that the arguments against gun control goes something like this.

"Yes, I know we have nearly the highest murder rate in the western world but it's because we don't take care of our citizens and has nothing at all to do with guns being widely available"

Yet the gun lobby tends to be right wing and thus not in favour of welfare or proper public healthcare or anything else that might help to fix the dead-end hopelessness of life that supposedly causes this gun crime.

Stricter gun control laws aren't a perfect cure-all, it is however an effective method to reduce the amount of lethal weaponry getting into the hands of the wrong people. Combine this with a less half-arsed welfare state as well as immigration laws designed to provide citzenship and support under the law for some of those millions of illegal immigrants and you might actually go some way to fixing the problem as well as a lot of the social mess that it's tied in with.

 

[PunkRex]

When I went to Austrailia the border check people treated me like shit. I hadn't shaved in a few days and was wearing shorts and a vest, my brother on the other hand, the tall, clean cut, polo shirt wearing mother fucker got in without so much as a glance.

Austrailia is a little fucked up in terms of their out look on foreigners but every country is a little.

As for gun control, good on this guy for sacraficing himself for the greater good, guys a good man.

 

[Dangit2019]

Of course Australia isn't real. It's a wonderful fictional dreamland like Underland, or Middle Earth. Hell, you guys don't remember that Yahtzee was created in test tube in Escapist Laboratories just for our entertainment? This man is perfectly reasonable.

OT: Dear God, I wish that the smart gun owners would raise their voices over these douchebags.

 

[Mid Boss]

How many major metropolitan areas does Australia have with populations of more 250,000 people?

More than in the US (per capita)...

Australia has an urbanization rate of 89%, compared to the US of 82%.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2212.html

Australia also has a more multicultural society than the US.

Now, how many are filled with poverty and drugs?

Australia has similar drug, race and poverty issues.

But Australia is not spending the US$10s billions each year the US spends cleaning up after all those firearm crimes, so we have more to spend on the things that make life easier/better (ie full public healthcare, US$16/hr min wage, liveable social security, etc).

I'm tired too of people trying to compare statistics of the United States to their country. If we gave you Detroit, Chicago and DC, you'd look like a violent madhouse too.

Ummm...Redfern?

Which would suggest that the problem is not guns, it's too many poor people with too much drugs with too little to live for and very little respect for life, packed much too closely together. You're gonna have a bad time.

There are plenty of places in the world like that, filled with poverty, drugs, violent crime and a population with an overblown sense of entitlement (I have visited and/or worked in many of them).

The only real difference in the US is the easy access to a firearm.

Wow... your country seems to actually have its act together instead of being bought and paid for with corporate political contributions. Tell me more of this wondrous place. I think the only bad thing I've ever heard about Australia is that ya'll are way over the deep end when it comes entertainment censorship.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

*Sigh* The attitudes of gun nuts will always baffle me...

 

[Harker067]

"A US gun lobbyist has said Australia is not on the same planet as the US"

Given american knowledge of geography maybe he was sincere? ;p

 

[tangoprime]

Of course Australia isn't real. It's a wonderful fictional dreamland like Underland, or Middle Earth. Hell, you guys don't remember that Yahtzee was created in test tube in Escapist Laboratories just for our entertainment? This man is perfectly reasonable.

OT: Dear God, I wish that the smart gun owners would raise their voices over these douchebags.

We would, and do, but get shouted down just the same and our arguments dismissed, so what's the point?
EDIT: Such as this one, do you really think they'd even listen to an argument?

*Sigh* The attitudes of gun nuts will always baffle me...

Obviously, the guy in this article is a tool, but realistically, comparing Australia to the United States on the grounds of gun control doesn't work. Australia has less than 10% of the population of the population of the United States, in fact, the state I live in has a higher population then the entire nation of Australia. Australia is also an island- whereas my state borders northern Mexico, which, at the moment, is having a bit of a problem maintaining order (seriously, I don't know how much it gets reported internationally, but there are cities in northern mexico where the entire police force has been either killed off, or just quit for fear of such, meaning there are cities you could damn near say were under the sovereignty of cartels). A good number of the violent crimes we see reported on the news locally are carried out by criminals from said region of mexico. I'll also point out that, the last figure I heard anyway, per capita gun ownership in the US is 89/100.

A full ban, such as the ones done in Australia, UK, and Japan are just not feasible, at all, as is the often repeated point that only law abiding citizens will follow the laws. But with the sheer amount of firearms already in circulation, and borders open enough to smuggle the amount of drugs in that come in annually, the criminal element will maintain their access to weapons, while the common citizen will be disarmed, or at least less-armed depending on the laws. On that note, regardless of what FBI, etc. reports say about defensive gun use, I can provide a number of local news stories just from the last few months of successful defensive gun use to repel home invaders. Things like that happen here.

What the US really needs to do is work on the underlying problems as to why there is this type of crime in the first place. I've addressed this in a thread once before where I feel I summed it up nicely:

End the ridiculous "war on drugs" and do as a few states with the balls to butt heads with the Federal Government have in this past election, and legalize. Drugs are illegal and it's illegal to buy them, but marijuana is as ubiquitous as guns in this country, probably more so, I bet more people in the US have a dimebag in their house than a gun, so what does that say for the ability to ban something through making it illegal? Anyway, legalize- gang violence over turf to sell on, over money, those cartels, evaporate overnight. No sense spilling blood for your corner on which to sling that rock when citizens can now go buy a pack of marlboro greens or whatever at the corner store. Wham, law enforcement and prison costs reduced drastically, legal system becomes efficient now that it's not so clogged with drug related offenses, law enforcement and courts can focus on true crime instead of being completely narcocentric.

Next step: Tax it. With the ridiculous reduction in law enforcement/court/prison/correction spending and new tax base, along with job growth in a new sector, state and federal governments now have much more money to through into social programs, for the sake of this topic, to help the mentally ill and help train people how to identify people who need help.

So... do we spend hundreds of millions of dollars if not more in ineffectually banning another item, further clogging courts and jails with otherwise upstanding citizens, and cause criminals to no longer have mortal fear of committing crimes against law abiding folks, or do we roll back some asinine bans that have shown decade after decade to be causing more problems than good, and start helping people who need help, and hopefully catching them before they go off the deep end?

*wonders how many people will read past the first line or two thinking this is another pro-gunner and dismissing my post without hearing it out*

I also like how this was phrased by an earlier poster, so I'll just put this here too:

America has a much more violent history then Australia, they needed a rebellion/revolution to get their independence, we got ours via peaceful measures, they had a civil war with hundreds of thousands dead, the closest we came was the Eureka stockade with a few hundred people. Both nations had issues with their native populations and the treatment of such, but the American native population was much larger and much more likely to fight back.

In Australia the firearm is something that was used for hunting, sport, and when we went to war, overseas, in America it was/is the symbol of how they won their nation, their civil war, and personal protection during their expansionist phase.

So that viewpoint needs to be considered.

 

[amuasyeas]

Gun legislation is not necessarily more effective in deterring murder. Case in point, Russia and Mexico. I think education is more important in preventing crimes, especially in poorer urban areas with extensive sprawl.

 

[amuasyeas]

It's always strange to me that the arguments against gun control goes something like this.

"Yes, I know we have nearly the highest murder rate in the western world but it's because we don't take care of our citizens and has nothing at all to do with guns being widely available"

Yet the gun lobby tends to be right wing and thus not in favour of welfare or proper public healthcare or anything else that might help to fix the dead-end hopelessness of life that supposedly causes this gun crime.

Stricter gun control laws aren't a perfect cure-all, it is however an effective method to reduce the amount of lethal weaponry getting into the hands of the wrong people. Combine this with a less half-arsed welfare state as well as immigration laws designed to provide citzenship and support under the law for some of those millions of illegal immigrants and you might actually go some way to fixing the problem as well as a lot of the social mess that it's tied in with.

Entitlements and government programs don't make the problem better. Besides, America doesn't have the highest murder rate in the western world, that's Honduras. Also, violent crime is a much bigger issue in European countries than in America.

 

[Thaluikhain]

snip

Careful, there's a rule against low content posts.

Now, if you were to write "Do you have a single fact to back that up?" underneath, that'd probably be ok, though.