Gunman holding hostages in Martin Place (Sydney - Australia)

SirDeadly

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RicoADF said:
Sounds like NSW police failed by waiting until the gunman had killed someone. They should have assaulted the place earlier when they could do it under their terms in a planned out raid rather than this response to what the gunman was doing.

2 are dead with a few injured, non life threatening injuries from what I hear. Gunman is also dead which is good to hear, scum got what he deserved.
The police did not fail at all! They were professional and did an excellent job, waiting it out for 17 hours for the right time to go in.

With the threat of bombs around the city there was no way in hell they were going in until that threat was removed. Not to mention there were so many hostages inside, imagine the potential casualties if they did go in! They had plenty of time to plan for an emergency like someone inside getting shot and they put that plan into action and successfully got their man.
 
Mar 26, 2008
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RicoADF said:
Sounds like NSW police failed by waiting until the gunman had killed someone. They should have assaulted the place earlier when they could do it under their terms in a planned out raid rather than this response to what the gunman was doing.

2 are dead with a few injured, non life threatening injuries from what I hear. Gunman is also dead which is good to hear, scum got what he deserved.

I'm actually concerned about what might happen next. The Cronulla riots occurred because a life saver was attacked by some Lebanese men, I'm wondering if this will cause something worse. The siege is over but the fallout might not be.
They did what I thought they'd do. Given the amount of media attention they weren't going to either snipe the terrorist in cold blood or storm the Lindt cafe without provocation and risk the lives of the hostages as the guy just started firing wildly. In all honesty the NSW police acted as best they could given the situation. The longer it dragged on the more likely there would be loss of lives. I thank God that it wasn't worse.

I too am concerned over the possible retribution attacks that will occur on mosques. I'm not Muslim, but I'm sane enough to know that you can't blame the actions of the minority on the majority. Given how xenophobic a lot of Australians are I've always said that if someone like that offs an Aussie it'll turn into a blood bath. I hope I'm wrong.
 

RicoADF

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SirDeadly said:
The police did not fail at all! They were professional and did an excellent job, waiting it out for 17 hours for the right time to go in.

With the threat of bombs around the city there was no way in hell they were going in until that threat was removed. Not to mention there were so many hostages inside, imagine the potential casualties if they did go in! They had plenty of time to plan for an emergency like someone inside getting shot and they put that plan into action and successfully got their man.
I consider any loss of life as a failure. Their mission was to rescue all of the hostages, not some. I agree that the police at the scene did an excellent job and the response was perfect, my issue is with the people in command waiting for the guy to act and then they would react rather than being pro active.

By the afternoon the bomb scare was basically proven to be false, they could have gone in during the evening and taken the guy out under their terms. While true that there's a risk of civilians being killed in the cross fire that is the risk weather you go in under your terms or his, the risk is atleast less when the police go in under their terms as they can control the situation.

Programmed_For_Damage said:
They did what I thought they'd do. Given the amount of media attention they weren't going to either snipe the terrorist in cold blood or storm the Lindt cafe without provocation and risk the lives of the hostages as the guy just started firing wildly. In all honesty the NSW police acted as best they could given the situation. The longer it dragged on the more likely there would be loss of lives. I thank God that it wasn't worse.
Agreed on both counts, I figured they'd wait as well and agree that the choice was based on the media coverage and public opinion rather than based on what they should do to protect the civilians. It was a political choice not a practical one, they were too afraid to take action and be held accountable if someone was injured or killed. This way they look like their saviors.

Programmed_For_Damage said:
I too am concerned over the possible retribution attacks that will occur on mosques. I'm not Muslim, but I'm sane enough to know that you can't blame the actions of the minority on the majority. Given how xenophobic a lot of Australians are I've always said that if someone like that offs an Aussie it'll turn into a blood bath. I hope I'm wrong.
Agreed there, always knew if a terrorist attack happened that it'd do more harm to the Muslim community than anyone else. Australian's don't take well to being attacked, it was good when holding Tobruk but not such a good trait in this case.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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RicoADF said:
Sounds like NSW police failed by waiting until the gunman had killed someone.
Not really...

Look at it this way, if they'd initiated action and any hostage was injured then they'd be crucified as a bunch of cowboys who took unnecessary risks with the safety of the hostages.

Basically, the NSW police were faced with a stable situation that suddenly turned deadly because, from the sounds of it, the gunman lost his shit when a bunch of people escaped. Split second escalations are one of tac ops officers' biggest fears.
 

Albino Boo

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What the hell do you have to do to get remanded to jail in Australia. This guy was charged with accessory to murder of his ex wife in 2013. In April this year he was charged with two counts of sexual assault and yet this guy was let free to run around the streets. Some very tough questions are going to have to be asked of the Australian judiciary. By any sane person's reckoning this guy should have been waiting in jail cell for trial. 3 unrelated serious offences surely must be regarded as threat serious enough to be held on remand
 

RicoADF

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RhombusHatesYou said:
Not really...

Look at it this way, if they'd initiated action and any hostage was injured then they'd be crucified as a bunch of cowboys who took unnecessary risks with the safety of the hostages.

Basically, the NSW police were faced with a stable situation that suddenly turned deadly because, from the sounds of it, the gunman lost his shit when a bunch of people escaped. Split second escalations are one of tac ops officers' biggest fears.
The marksman had a clear shot but weren't allowed to take it as they wanted a peaceful outcome, they should have taken him out and ended the situation with no hostages injured or killed. They did not take that course of action and 2 people are dead, they failed.

I do agree that it was because of public opinion/the media, as stated in my previous post it looks like they didn't commit and do what they needed to because they wanted to look like they were trying to avoid bloodshed. They were too pacifist.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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albino boo said:
What the hell do you have to do to get remanded to jail in Australia.
Hmmm... being Aboriginal is probably the surest way to get remanded in custody. Having a crap lawyer also works. Living in a State that doesn't have massively overcrowded facilities for holding people on remand helps, too.

Some very tough questions are going to have to be asked of the Australian judiciary.
I think you mean the NSW State Judiciary. Criminal matters only reach the Federal system via the appeals system or under very special circumstances.
 
Mar 26, 2008
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RhombusHatesYou said:
albino boo said:
What the hell do you have to do to get remanded to jail in Australia.
Hmmm... being Aboriginal is probably the surest way to get remanded in custody. Having a crap lawyer also works. Living in a State that doesn't have massively overcrowded facilities for holding people on remand helps, too.
I'd laugh at that if it wasn't so horrendously accurate.

I know a couple of people who should probably be locked up. One has a warrant out on him and the cops still haven't got him. If he was an Aboriginal he'd be in the clink by now.
 

Shamanic Rhythm

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RhombusHatesYou said:
albino boo said:
What the hell do you have to do to get remanded to jail in Australia.
Hmmm... being Aboriginal is probably the surest way to get remanded in custody.
Quoted for truth.

Sadly, everyone is using this tragedy to play armchair lawyer/swat teams, not to mention pushing their particular agenda. Faux News have already been banging the "this is why gun laws don't work" gavel.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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RicoADF said:
RhombusHatesYou said:
Not really...

Look at it this way, if they'd initiated action and any hostage was injured then they'd be crucified as a bunch of cowboys who took unnecessary risks with the safety of the hostages.

Basically, the NSW police were faced with a stable situation that suddenly turned deadly because, from the sounds of it, the gunman lost his shit when a bunch of people escaped. Split second escalations are one of tac ops officers' biggest fears.
The marksman had a clear shot but weren't allowed to take it as they wanted a peaceful outcome, they should have taken him out and ended the situation with no hostages injured or killed. They did not take that course of action and 2 people are dead, they failed.

I do agree that it was because of public opinion/the media, as stated in my previous post it looks like they didn't commit and do what they needed to because they wanted to look like they were trying to avoid bloodshed. They were too pacifist.
I only remember the clear shot being available prior to the Soggy's being in place and when they were unsure if there were more gunmen. If they'd taken the shot then AND there had been additional gunmen, this whole affair could have been bloodier.

It wasn't the ideal resolution; and I'm sure armchair tacticians, as well as real ones, will be dissecting this incident for the next few years.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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RicoADF said:
They did not take that course of action and 2 people are dead, they failed.
It seems now that the first person killed was trying to wrestle Loopyfuck's weapon from him. I won't condemn or condone that unless we find out why he tried but it almost certainly threw a spanner in the police's plan.
 

RicoADF

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Gordon_4 said:
I only remember the clear shot being available prior to the Soggy's being in place and when they were unsure if there were more gunmen. If they'd taken the shot then AND there had been additional gunmen, this whole affair could have been bloodier.

It wasn't the ideal resolution; and I'm sure armchair tacticians, as well as real ones, will be dissecting this incident for the next few years.
Good point, hindsight does suck in that way.

RhombusHatesYou said:
It seems now that the first person killed was trying to wrestle Loopyfuck's weapon from him. I won't condemn or condone that unless we find out why he tried but it almost certainly through a spanner in the police's plan.
Yeah indeed unless the guy was clearly about to shoot everyone and he jumped the gunman to save the rest.

Captcha - "I know nothing!" quiet shieltz
 

RhombusHatesYou

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RicoADF said:
RhombusHatesYou said:
It seems now that the first person killed was trying to wrestle Loopyfuck's weapon from him. I won't condemn or condone that unless we find out why he tried but it almost certainly through a spanner in the police's plan.
Yeah indeed unless the guy was clearly about to shoot everyone and he jumped the gunman to save the rest.
Well yeah, if something like that was the case then the spanner was already well and truly thrown and the bloke was a fucking hero.

Anything else would be pointless and tragic.

I so very much want it to be a case of heroism.

...

I think my inner cynic just had an embolism at me typing that.
 

cookyy2k

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I always love threads like this, where people with little to no concept of police tactics sit behind a keyboard and come up with all the ways they could have done it better than highly trained professionals. Because of course you know exactly where marksmen were placed, how good of a shot they had and all the intelligence available to them. Oh wait, you heard it on the news? must be true!
 

RicoADF

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RhombusHatesYou said:
I so very much want it to be a case of heroism.
I'm hoping for that too, it'll be interesting to hear the whole story come out.

Also still hoping there wont be a backlash to the Muslim community.
 

RhombusHatesYou

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RicoADF said:
RhombusHatesYou said:
I so very much want it to be a case of heroism.
I'm hoping for that too, it'll be interesting to hear the whole story come out.

Also still hoping there wont be a backlash to the Muslim community.
Oh, there'll be backlash, there's always at least a few fuckheads and opportunists... it's more a question of size, if it gets traction, and how many people will stand up against it (something Australians seem to be getting better at).
 

lunavixen

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I was wondering how long it would take until this showed up on the Escapist. It's been confirmed that police stormed the cafe at 2am, there were 5 people injured (4 hostages, one police officer) and two hostages died (one of a heart attack on route to the hospital, the other was shot by the gunman as he tried to wrestle the gun away from him).

RicoADF said:
Sounds like NSW police failed by waiting until the gunman had killed someone. They should have assaulted the place earlier when they could do it under their terms in a planned out raid rather than this response to what the gunman was doing.
No, with the unclear information and the fact that so many hostages remained, the police couldn't just storm/raid the building, not without being crucified by the media and risking getting more hostages killed, doing nothing until he cracked had the same risk. It was a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". The police did the best they could with the available information.

Just so you know, one of the hostages died due to a stress caused heart attack on route to the hospital, not a gunshot wound.
 

WolfThomas

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lunavixen said:
Just so you know, one of the hostages died due to a stress caused heart attack on route to the hospital, not a gunshot wound.
That's incorrect. From the information the hostage you're talking about died from a cardiac arrest. As in their heart stopped. Most likely secondary to hypovolemic shock (too large blood loss).
 

lunavixen

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WolfThomas said:
lunavixen said:
Just so you know, one of the hostages died due to a stress caused heart attack on route to the hospital, not a gunshot wound.
That's incorrect. From the information the hostage you're talking about died from a cardiac arrest. As in their heart stopped. Most likely secondary to hypovolemic shock (too large blood loss).
Some news outlets say heart attack, others say cardiac arrest, and a few say fatally shot, we won't know for sure until/if the autopsy results are released to the public.
 

Jiggle Counter

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I gotta admit, I was VERY surprised when the media behaved itself.

The police basically told them, "As the events unfold before you, don't throw shit out of proportion, don't make assumptions, don't antagonize anyone. If the attacker inside wants you to show images or relay his messages to the world, don't do it. Any demands he makes, threats he makes, do not let the public know about it."

And yeah, I was surprised the media did as it was told. I was expecting an all out Fox-News-ish bullshit stir parade, with "Experts" coming onto the show to denounce the muslim community or say how dare the government hold secrets, we have rights, etc, etc.