Gunman holding hostages in Martin Place (Sydney - Australia)

[crotchdot]

Well, one report showed 40 hostages in the cafe, which for (the now apparently confirmed one gunman) is far too many to handle. Frankly, all it would take is for him to turn his back and the hostages could take him. Bloody way to go, but he wouldn't be able to take more than two. So far they have confirmed one gunman wearing a black vest with a shotgun, which frankly means any sort of resistance from the hostages is going to go bad for him.

An easy armchair observation to make, but if you're being made to sit or lie down by a guy with a shotgun, are you going to be one of the people to try and rush him? Point blank with a shotgun he's going to take out at least a few of the people coming at him before he's bought down. So far no-one has been killed, would you be prepapred to lay down your life when you don't know if the situation can be resolved without bloodshed? I don't tink it's such an easy decision to make when you're sitting safe and sound at home and don't have a lunatic with a shotgun walking around menacingly.

 

[Lil_Rimmy]

Well, one report showed 40 hostages in the cafe, which for (the now apparently confirmed one gunman) is far too many to handle. Frankly, all it would take is for him to turn his back and the hostages could take him. Bloody way to go, but he wouldn't be able to take more than two. So far they have confirmed one gunman wearing a black vest with a shotgun, which frankly means any sort of resistance from the hostages is going to go bad for him.

An easy armchair observation to make, but if you're being made to sit or lie down by a guy with a shotgun, are you going to be one of the people to try and rush him? Point blank with a shotgun he's going to take out at least a few of the people coming at him before he's bought down. So far no-one has been killed, would you be prepapred to lay down your life when you don't know if the situation can be resolved without bloodshed? I don't tink it's such an easy decision to make when you're sitting safe and sound at home and don't have a lunatic with a shotgun walking around menacingly.

Oh, I know, I'm not saying it's like someone is gonna rush him and they are all going to walk away alive. Highly unlikely. It's just that when this shit has happened before, someone has had to die or shit really has to hit the fan before something happens.

Basically - I get the fact that the people would be shit scared, but I'm also scared that the gunman is gonna get tired and angry and kill one of the hostages. It just pisses me that this is happening.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

I agree it's likely going to be local police and/or AFP, but if Abbott wanted to show a firm stance then as Gordon above said he could send TAG to take the building and I wouldn't be surprised if they were on alert in case the call came.

I think Abbott has a better understanding of what 'a firm stance' is. Saying "it's a concern but the NSW police can handle it" is a calm but firm stance. Sending the SASR to scare the living fuck out of assylum seekers is a PM who thinks he's still playing with toy soldiers. Using military special ops for a situation the police are perfectly capable of resolving would make the PM seem either panicky or that he gets a stiffy watching soldiers rappelling out of helicopters.

You could bet a vital organ that at least a few TAG-E teams spent most of the day sitting around a hanger or near a pad on 15 minute notice. TAG-W would have had an hour or two of that as well this morning.

Bet Joe Hockey could fucking kiss whoever the loopy bastard is holding those people hostage. Easiest 'The Budget Is Fucked' report ever.

 

[crotchdot]

Basically - I get the fact that the people would be shit scared, but I'm also scared that the gunman is gonna get tired and angry and kill one of the hostages. It just pisses me that this is happening.

Yeah, it's an impossible call, and one hopefully one that none of us ever have to make. Any gunman in this situation is going to tell his victims that if they remain calm they'll get out alive. You just can't know until after the fact how crazy he is.

Here's hoping everyone walks away safe. Except maybe the hostage taker. I think most of us can live with him being a casualty if that's what it takes.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Basically - I get the fact that the people would be shit scared, but I'm also scared that the gunman is gonna get tired and angry and kill one of the hostages. It just pisses me that this is happening.

Yeah, it's an impossible call, and one hopefully one that none of us ever have to make. Any gunman in this situation is going to tell his victims that if they remain calm they'll get out alive. You just can't know until after the fact how crazy he is.

Here's hoping everyone walks away safe. Except maybe the hostage taker. I think most of us can live with him being a casualty if that's what it takes.

Well, outside of a loss of possible intelligence, I won't lose any sleep over this idiot being NSW TRG's newest belt notch.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Dammit, miss-heard the news and thought they said the Grand Moff of Australia had released a statement... turned out it was the Grand Mufti of Australia which made much more sense but was far less exciting.

 

[Ryotknife]

Well, one report showed 40 hostages in the cafe, which for (the now apparently confirmed one gunman) is far too many to handle. Frankly, all it would take is for him to turn his back and the hostages could take him. Bloody way to go, but he wouldn't be able to take more than two. So far they have confirmed one gunman wearing a black vest with a shotgun, which frankly means any sort of resistance from the hostages is going to go bad for him.

Yeah I've been wondering why they haven't rushed him, 40 v 1 the guy would be stuffed esp if he had his back to those that went for him.

its not that surprising. there are incidents where a single shooter manages to kill 20 and injure another 20, so he was outnumbered by at least 40 to 1 (hell we had a few that took place on military bases, against people trained in actual combat). I think the problem being that even if there are 40 people, very few are willing to actually rush him. The more people there are, the less willing people will be to do something. Its the same line of reasoning that if you were alone and saw someone who needed help you would probably call the police, but if 1000 people also were around you would be unlikely to call the police. If i remember correctly, the more people see that you need help, the less likely that you will actually get any help from even a single person.

 

[Thaluikhain]

its not that surprising. there are incidents where a single shooter manages to kill 20 and injure another 20, so he was outnumbered by at least 40 to 1 (hell we had a few that took place on military bases, against people trained in actual combat). I think the problem being that even if there are 40 people, very few are willing to actually rush him. The more people there are, the less willing people will be to do something. Its the same line of reasoning that if you were alone and saw someone who needed help you would probably call the police, but if 1000 people also were around you would be unlikely to call the police. If i remember correctly, the more people see that you need help, the less likely that you will actually get any help from even a single person.

Yeah, can say that that's true from personal experience. I was at Centrelink once, some little girl fell over and hit her head. Someone calls for someone to help.

There were loads of people around, and everyone (myself included) stood up, took about two steps forward, and stopped, looking around to see if anyone else was going to do anything, if there was anyone more qualified.

As it happened, two people came forward, and one of them had to be stopped from making things worse, by trying to help without knowing anything about what he was doing. If he'd been one of the people waiting to see if anyone was more qualified to help like the rest of us, he'd have been much more useful. But he just jumped in, had to be repeatedly told to stop what he was doing.

In context...if you are one of 40 people threatened by a gunman, you don't necessarily outnumber him 40 to 1. There's one of you, one of him, and 39 other people who may or may not back you up if you try anything. For that matter, he might well give himself up to police in a bit, and everyone goes home safe (well, he goes to a government funded concrete home, but still).

 

[Lil_Rimmy]

Well, one report showed 40 hostages in the cafe, which for (the now apparently confirmed one gunman) is far too many to handle. Frankly, all it would take is for him to turn his back and the hostages could take him. Bloody way to go, but he wouldn't be able to take more than two. So far they have confirmed one gunman wearing a black vest with a shotgun, which frankly means any sort of resistance from the hostages is going to go bad for him.

Yeah I've been wondering why they haven't rushed him, 40 v 1 the guy would be stuffed esp if he had his back to those that went for him.

its not that surprising. there are incidents where a single shooter manages to kill 20 and injure another 20, so he was outnumbered by at least 40 to 1 (hell we had a few that took place on military bases, against people trained in actual combat). I think the problem being that even if there are 40 people, very few are willing to actually rush him. The more people there are, the less willing people will be to do something. Its the same line of reasoning that if you were alone and saw someone who needed help you would probably call the police, but if 1000 people also were around you would be unlikely to call the police. If i remember correctly, the more people see that you need help, the less likely that you will actually get any help from even a single person.

The big difference there is that this is a guy in a vest with a shotgun, and he's holding hostages for around 12 hours now. That means surprise, a closed space and a tired, single, gunman.

For an assault on a base like you described, the shooter would be someone who is coming into attack with something more than a pump-action and is actively killing, not capturing.

But for the group mentality, you are so right. The sad thing is that if one person charges him, the rest are likely to either follow or run out (allowing for the Soggy to move in or to fuck the shooter over, but that first person is probably going to be the one shot. Sad, but true.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It seems like the response from the general public has mostly been either "meh" or standing in solidarity with Muslims with the IllRideWithYou thing.

The politicians are claiming people are frightened though, but most people are working against terrorism by not panicking.

 

[Albino Boo]

It seems like the response from the general public has mostly been either "meh" or standing in solidarity with Muslims with the IllRideWithYou thing.

The politicians are claiming people are frightened though, but most people are working against terrorism by not panicking.

Small but rather important point, twitter user are not repetitive of the general public. If they were, Paul Abbott wouldn't be PM.

 

[Thaluikhain]

It seems like the response from the general public has mostly been either "meh" or standing in solidarity with Muslims with the IllRideWithYou thing.

The politicians are claiming people are frightened though, but most people are working against terrorism by not panicking.

Small but rather important point, twitter user are not repetitive of the general public. If they were, Paul Abbott wouldn't be PM.

He isn't, Tony Abbott is

Though, you are correct, of course, IllRideWithYou is only a small thing. But it seems lots of people are standing outside the cordon taking selfies of themselves. The terrorists aren't quite doing terror properly if that's the response they get.

 

[CrystalShadow]

This is really shocking, I feel so sorry for the hostages and their families. I hope the police and security services manage to save all of the hostages, I don't think Australia has had to face an Islamist terrorist attack before.

Not on our own soil, but the Bali bombings seemed to be in large part aimed at Australians. (And the majority of the people killed were Australian citizens)

That is of course a situation outside the direct control of any Australian security services, but it should perhaps have been a clue that we were being targeted by this stuff, and not to get too complacent about it...

 

[Guffe]

Shit!
Hope this ends well.
Everyone gets out alive, yes even the gunman, he's a lot more valuable alive than dead (interrogation etc) and I guess death would be too easy and escape route for him out of this.
But mainly, hoping the civilians get out unharmed.

 

[Thaluikhain]

All over now, there was gunfire and flashbangs and police not yet said about injuries, but someone came out on a stretcher.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Full credit to NSW Police for their work. It's sad how this ended, but let's hope everyone comes together in the aftermath.

Dammit, miss-heard the news and thought they said the Grand Moff of Australia had released a statement... turned out it was the Grand Mufti of Australia which made much more sense but was far less exciting.

THAT WOULD EXPLAIN EVERYTHING.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

I won't be surprised if Abbott declares a stronger committment to fighting ISIS after this incident.

It doesn't matter whether or not the perps even claim allegiance to ISIS or not: this is all the excuse our government needed.

It's kind of weird how these events always occur just at the right time governments need them, isn't it? Not claiming any kind of conspiracy here, I just can't recall the last time this kind of thing last happened in Australia.

 

[Lil_Rimmy]

All over now, there was gunfire and flashbangs and police not yet said about injuries, but someone came out on a stretcher.

Yep. Well, at around 2 am in the morning I believe 7 hostages (though they are still unclear) ran out the doors and escaped, leaving a few still inside (the number of hostages was confirmed as 17). A sniper saw the gunman shoot a hostage and then the police moved in from both entrances. The gunman was killed in the gunfire, one hostage was fatally wounded and a police officer received a graze wound from a shotgun pellet.

If I recall correctly the two dead hostages were a man and a woman of 34 and 38 years of age, and woman was taken to hospital where she then died.

Also, the gunman was confirmed, can't recall name right now, but he was a self proclaimed shiek, he was already convicted for sending hate mail to families of dead Australian soldiers, for sexually abusing those who came to him for guidence or healing and for being an accomplice to the murder of his wife and the burning of his body.

He was working alone as far as they can tell, so it sounds like a nutter who realised he couldn't keep being a murdering dick and get away with it, so he took the hostages and panicked.

Fucking shitty situation, but the police response was fucking fast and well done. They've shown shots of the entry, and it's insane.

 

[RicoADF]

Sounds like NSW police failed by waiting until the gunman had killed someone. They should have assaulted the place earlier when they could do it under their terms in a planned out raid rather than this response to what the gunman was doing.

2 are dead with a few injured, non life threatening injuries from what I hear. Gunman is also dead which is good to hear, scum got what he deserved.

I'm actually concerned about what might happen next. The Cronulla riots occurred because a life saver was attacked by some Lebanese men, I'm wondering if this will cause something worse. The siege is over but the fallout might not be.