That was a little overly hostile. And besides, to me and a lot of other people, saying "why ban them when you can mute them" is like saying "why get rid of the problem when you can ignore it." That person is still running around XBL making things unpleasant for everyone else. He's the problem.Hammeroj said:
Halo 4 Sexism Earns You a Lifetime Ban
- Thread starter Karloff
- Start date
erttheking said:
From the Bureau of Labor Statistics: http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshcfoi1.htm if you'd like to find it yourself (page 8 of http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0010.pdf).
So yes, I am saying "men do the more dangerous jobs" because they do... they make up 92% of all workplace fatalities... that's a simple statement of fact, draw whatever conclusions you want from it.
I'm not arguing the facts, I'm arguing what you're trying to imply from the facts.nacatak said:
That's not the point, it's not "tradition". C*** and F***** have been and are used as derogatory insults and dick really isn't, I don't really think that there's much dispute over that.nacatak said:
I would think that a woman that went online, spoke up and because of her gender got called a ***** might have her experience for the rest of the match tainted. I don't really see why we should focus on keeping sexist bullies happy, insults like this is against the Xbox Live code of conduct, they shouldn't get off scott free for breaking the rules they agreed to abide by when they made their account.Hammeroj said:
I think all of the women in this thread who have pointed out that they've had to deal with this online proves that it's a real problem. Saying that actually trying to fix it is "bandwagoning" is kind of insulting.
Pretty much this.cynicalsaint1 said:
At the end of the day, the community had 12 years of second chances. It's over. To entertain Negotiations at this point would be pretty damn insulting.
Freedom of Speech does not exempt you of criticism or make it okay to ignore the terms of use, nor does it mean being a monster is okay.
I don't particularly see what people are fighting in favor for. This censorship and punishment only applies to hateful or even bigoted language. Stop using it...problem solved.
I wouldn't argue against that, but if you honestly want me to believe that men get an equal amount of discriminatory speech flung their way simply for the fact that they're male as women do, I'm going to need some convincing.nacatak said:
Furthermore a lot of this is going to come down to how exactly the policy is implemented - I doubt they're going to ban anyone without any kind of evidence - its against their best interests to turn away a paying customer who did nothing wrong after all.
Finally why do you assume that the policy only protects women, homosexuals, etc?
LoL this is laughable. how the heck can she say "That's why there's a zero tolerance policy for sexist or discriminatory comments on Xbox Live"
I have heard more foul sh*t on the xbox than anywhere else. unless they disable ingame communications completely or have moderators in every public match, I'm gonna have to call bullsh*t on this one.
I have heard more foul sh*t on the xbox than anywhere else. unless they disable ingame communications completely or have moderators in every public match, I'm gonna have to call bullsh*t on this one.
Uh, they're saying that they're GOING to have this policy with Halo 4 when it comes out.Spookimitsu said:
No, it's not retarded. I imagine this isn't a case of "You made a sexist joke, you're banned." I think it's closer to the constant harassment people get, and it DOES impede the game. I rarely use my microphone in games - I prefer to only talk to my friends. Occasionally, when other people are using their microphones, I decide to use mine. Communication is integral to teamwork. A coherent team will stamp all over a group of red or blue individuals. However, during one Capture the Flag game of Halo: Reach, my attempts at working with the other players were continually drowned out by an American voice of indeterminate gender repeating "Would you like some fish and chips?"Hammeroj said:
I'm not offended by this mockery of my nationality. However, I was pissed off that I couldn't get a word in edgeways, because this little shit was too busy trying to be funny. I could mute them, but then what. Then I'm not communicating with the team, and should this wee fuck decide to be useful, I won't know about it. Besides, I was not raised to ignore problems.
Now I got one voice using a single stereotype for a short while during a game. I've got an English accent, and I rarely hear English people being harassed. I DO hear people with definite 'foreign' accents get mocked a lot, and women get it worse than anyone. You hear a lot of insults get thrown around - ****** a common one, but from these kids it doesn't mean anything. Kill his avatar, he shouts "you fucking cheating ****** I fucked your mom". A total non-insult. I'm not gay, I have no issue with being gay, and I'm fairly sure he hasn't met my mother. Any gay person insulted in this way would likely not be offended either - A non-insult. No particular target.
Female voice however. The insults stop being non-insults. Now she can't communicate because people on her OWN team are either making her verbally and loudly unwelcome, or trying to defend her. Either way, the game's pretty much over because nobody can concentrate for all the screechy children abusing the poor woman.
So yeah. It's not single comments, it's not jokes, it's harassment.
Uh, I'm saying that unless they disable ingame communications completely or have moderators in every public match, it's going to be impossible to enforce.erttheking said:
Beyond that, it's a big case of too little too late. They've heard the terrible stuff that people say to each in their games for YEARS. Now they want to do something about it? Years ago that might have earned enough respect from me to warrant a purchase. Now-a-days I just won't play Halo anymore so /shrug
Well, I can definitely get behind this. The only thing is, I'm curious to see what passes for sexist comments. I've heard of many people getting bans here on the escapist for strange reasons. Anyway, if this is becoming a thing, let's hope the 12-year-olds don't catch wind of it. I'd love to see a mass-banning take place.
Just throwin' my two cents in, I'm mostly with Ross and Wolfkill on this, although I think they should have put a bit more emphasis on "discriminatory comments". I'm not sayin' that sexism isn't still a big problem, just that the term "discrimination" is more all-encompassing. Sexism, racism, homophobia and all other forms of discrimination aught to be zapped equally. I don't think it's an infringement on freedom of speech. It's action against bullying. People are being hurt by this.
That said, I also think that a permaban right off the bat might be a bit much. Even the nicest of us has a case of foot-in-mouth syndrome every now and again and nobody wants to get a lifetime ban because of one slip of the tongue. A penalty system is probably a better idea here. Start with removal from a game for discriminatory behaviour and work your way up from there. Plenty of other organizations have rules for unsporting conduct in their games. "Abusive language" is actually grounds for a penalty under the NHL's code of conduct: http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26486. So, why not take a leaf out of this book? Start applying these sorts of penalties for discriminatory conduct. Although maybe they should leave out the part that penalizes profanity, because then we'd ALL be screwed
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That said, I also think that a permaban right off the bat might be a bit much. Even the nicest of us has a case of foot-in-mouth syndrome every now and again and nobody wants to get a lifetime ban because of one slip of the tongue. A penalty system is probably a better idea here. Start with removal from a game for discriminatory behaviour and work your way up from there. Plenty of other organizations have rules for unsporting conduct in their games. "Abusive language" is actually grounds for a penalty under the NHL's code of conduct: http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26486. So, why not take a leaf out of this book? Start applying these sorts of penalties for discriminatory conduct. Although maybe they should leave out the part that penalizes profanity, because then we'd ALL be screwed
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Half the people you're quoting are against it, but whatever. Outside this context, calling someone a dick isn't any more charged than calling someone an asshole (and everybody has one of those, how about that!). You talk about the "cunts" and "twats", but discriminatory language isn't limited to simple pejoratives or expletives. In any case, I'd have absolutely no problem cleaning up my own language if it was dictated by site rules. It's not, as you're perfectly well aware. Nice play of the hypocrite card though.Schadrach said:
When someone is hurling bile at you, you can either shrug it off and ignore it (mute!), or bend over and take the abuse (man up...? That's not right). But why should you have to? Why should anyone have to deal with someone else's bullshit? The merits of zero tolerance are arguable, and I agree with you there. The merits of taking the responsibility away from the folks at the receiving end and placing it on the ones dishing the abuse, however, aren't.
So to sum up the arguments against banning people who use slurs (sexist or otherwise) on Halo 4 for those just joining us:
1. Freedom of Speech!
This one demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what that is and how it works.
2. Just Mute Them!
This one is just too easily reversible.
"If someone offends you with slurs on XBL, just mute them!"
"If you can't play a game without spouting slurs, just mute yourself!"
3. People Will Get Banned for Jokes or No Reason or Because They Beat Someone!
You can hardly critique how a system functions before it even starts. No one here knows the specifics of how the system will work, what kind of appeals system may or may not be in place, or what has been defined as a slur by the moderation group. "No-Tolerance" just means that there are no situations in which slurs would be deemed acceptable, not that there is no way to contest a ban.
4. It's a Waste of Time! There Will be Way Too Much for the Mods to Handle!
Ah the old fallback of "I don't think it will work so why bother". Unless you have a degree or equivalent 1000 hours work experience in group psychology, then your opinion on whether or not it will work means about jack.
The people who decided to institute this? They did so not only from a position of greater experience, but with the knowledge that if they screw this up it will permanently tarnish their good reputation. Publicly failing to meet expectations set by itself is one of the worst things a company can do to itself. They knew the risks when they started up, they wouldn't have said anything if they figured less than 80% probability of success.
5. Perma Bans are Overkill!
Maybe, maybe not. That one is entirely subjective. Personally I prefer the old fashioned method of keeping magpies and crows out of your yard, which is the approach I think is being taken here.
1. Freedom of Speech!
This one demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what that is and how it works.
2. Just Mute Them!
This one is just too easily reversible.
"If someone offends you with slurs on XBL, just mute them!"
"If you can't play a game without spouting slurs, just mute yourself!"
3. People Will Get Banned for Jokes or No Reason or Because They Beat Someone!
You can hardly critique how a system functions before it even starts. No one here knows the specifics of how the system will work, what kind of appeals system may or may not be in place, or what has been defined as a slur by the moderation group. "No-Tolerance" just means that there are no situations in which slurs would be deemed acceptable, not that there is no way to contest a ban.
4. It's a Waste of Time! There Will be Way Too Much for the Mods to Handle!
Ah the old fallback of "I don't think it will work so why bother". Unless you have a degree or equivalent 1000 hours work experience in group psychology, then your opinion on whether or not it will work means about jack.
The people who decided to institute this? They did so not only from a position of greater experience, but with the knowledge that if they screw this up it will permanently tarnish their good reputation. Publicly failing to meet expectations set by itself is one of the worst things a company can do to itself. They knew the risks when they started up, they wouldn't have said anything if they figured less than 80% probability of success.
5. Perma Bans are Overkill!
Maybe, maybe not. That one is entirely subjective. Personally I prefer the old fashioned method of keeping magpies and crows out of your yard, which is the approach I think is being taken here.