Having difficulty understanding transgendered people? I'll try to help.

Sleepy Sol

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No questions here, really. Though that might just be experience with having a good friend who's trans. I thought your post was quite nice as an attempt of inviting discussion.
Snowfox_ said:
At the same time we have the freedom to not acknowledge an identity choice for our own conclusions, and I'm uncomfortable with trannies being allowed into bathrooms that don't match their biological sex.
She acknowledges that in her post, but is it really that difficult if you just happened to know someone was trans to refer to them as their preferred gender identity for the prospective few seconds you'd actually have to interact with them? It's really not that horrible. People seem to just take something being separated from their definition of 'normal' as somehow wrong, and then view that as grounds to be an asshole. It's not.

Why are you uncomfortable with trans people using the bathrooms associated with their gender identity? What makes you think that's an issue? Hell, someone could easily pass for a woman and you'd never fucking know she was trans. Also, gender and biological sex are different concepts that get completely associated with each other far too often.

And for Christ's sake, she said in her post that tranny is typically a frowned-upon term and you used it anyway. I think that's not really setting a good standard for any manner of discussion.
 

Ihateregistering1

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Kathinka said:
Ihateregistering1 said:
Kathinka said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Some men are born with two Y chromosomes and no X Chromosome
Narp! This is not possible, for several reasons. You can have a whole mess of XXY, XYY, XXXY or XXX oddities, but YY isn't something that could occur. It's chiefly impossible because the X chromosome, simply put contains important information of how to actually assemble all the parts of the baby. Besides the fact that the female parent always contributes an X Chromosome.
Ninja'd! Yep, the X Chromosome has around 2000 genes on it, compared to about 78 on the Y chromosome. Maybe some day some mad scientist can create a YY man, but right now a YY person couldn't even be born, let alone live.
I doubt even that was possible.
If some mad scientist just decided it was time for some extraordinary madness and through some crazy method somehow created a YY impregnation, the zygote would just die because it can't process proteins without the X.

Captcha: "Lucky us". Yes cpatcha. Lucky us indeed.
Hey now, we're talking crazed Super Science here, "can't" is not in our vocabulary! Now bring on the disintegration rays and levitation boots.
 

Twintix

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PaulH said:
...You know, now that I think about it, it might not have anything to do with pretending that biological sex doesn't exist after all. I sorta assumed that the parents wouldn't let the kid know its birth gender, which I guess was kinda stupid of me.

I still don't think this is a good way to go about it, but it might not be as insanely politically correct as I initially believed.
 

w23eer

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I have a simple question I've always wondered about but never really bothered to look up. What's the deal with the word 'queer?' Growing up, I always thought it was just another term for a gay person. Then later I found out it was actually derogatory. But now I see some people refer to themselves as queer, or more specifically 'gender queer.' Is it the same thing, but not derogatory anymore?
 

Areloch

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shrekfan246 said:
Areloch said:
Hm, an interesting point. Though relying on brain patterns to decide the, I don't know, 'validity' of acquiescing to someone's request of using non-standard pronouns seems weak to me. It also is something that's impossible to verify, for whatever that's worth.

After all, maybe that person does share lots of behavioral traits that cats do. Does it become more valid at that point? I have no idea. That's part of my problem with this sort of topic. It rapidly turns into one gigantic gray area with no way to define boundaries.
Well, to be honest, I don't think trying to use biology as the sole deciding factor is much better. Biology screws up all the time. Personally, I tend to draw the line at otherkin, but that's mostly because I find it hard to believe that someone can be a dragon stuck in a human's body. As has been previously mentioned, if someone truly felt they were a cat or dog or bear or wolf or fox or dragon, they would probably take larger steps to actually act like it, if that makes sense (also I don't think it's a coincidence that most people tend to say they're animals that are typically deemed "cool" or "majestic", etc.). I'm not going to be disrespectful right to their face, but unless it's definitively proven to actually be a thing, I'm going to remain skeptical. If it is proven to be a thing, then sure, I'll accept whatever they want.

Really, at the end of the day, I elect for trying to be respectful of a person's wishes regardless of my personal opinions. To make another imperfect comparison, if I were to tell somebody my name and they responded with, "I'm going to call you Peter," I'd be pretty affronted. They're explicitly making the decision to deny giving me a basic amount of human decency.
I suppose that's true. Honestly though, this whole thing feels like another classic instance in society of 'no one wins', as someone gets to be innately incorrect.

Also, imperfect indeed, as that's how nicknames happen ;)

But yeah (this part is more directed at the topic in general), it just bugs me that we're apparently supposed to launch to the extremes to support what is, at it's root, a medical anomaly. Not that that makes people with gender dysphoria any less people(it doesn't), but when I read about, like with the above story about the one couple not electing to put their kid's sex in medical files so they can 'choose' it later. Or some people on this forum's commentary about how it's up to the non-trans person to broach the subject. That stuff grates on me at this point.

Trans people are absolutely still people, but they're very much an outlier compared to the norm. Restructuring the entirety of society around a genetic anomaly seems utterly bizzare to me. We absolutely should give trans people the support and help they need to live normal lives, but is it really any different than, say, people suffering from a genetic disorder? Or Asthma?

We get those people the medical support, surgeries, medicine, etc that they need to live as normal, but we don't restructure the major underpinnings of medicine and societal norms and the like around the off chance that a baby is born with those conditions.
 

chuckman1

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w23eer said:
I have a simple question I've always wondered about but never really bothered to look up. What's the deal with the word 'queer?' Growing up, I always thought it was just another term for a gay person. Then later I found out it was actually derogatory. But now I see some people refer to themselves as queer, or more specifically 'gender queer.' Is it the same thing, but not derogatory anymore?
I'm confused too, queer sounds like an insult to me but I hear people say it I think meaning not straight? I'm not sure.
tumblr got mad at me when I said it sounds like an insult.
 

Silvanus

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Twintix said:
I still don't think this is a good way to go about it, but it might not be as insanely politically correct as I initially believed.
Just a minor quibble; I'm pretty sure that refusing to describe a child as a girl or a boy at an early age is pretty strongly liberal (in a manner of speaking), but not politically correct. Political correctness isn't interchangeable with strong liberalism-- it specifically refers to reflecting what is politically accepted. Doing that isn't widely politically accepted at all: it's not reflected in official terminology, paperwork, party stances. If anything, doing so is pretty politically incorrect.
 

Godhead

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I don't think you've really explained the tough subjects here. For example, do you like sorbet or ice cream? And God help you if you say gelato.
 

flying_whimsy

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
I think(for whatever reason) Cisgender is a bad/offensive term.
The only time I've ever heard cisgender used has been as a derogatory term. Also, under terminology you forgot one of the biggest, most offensive ways you can refer to a trans person: "it." Even I want to punch someone in the face when they start using 'it' to address another human being. The only people I ever want to dehumanize that badly are nazis (real ones), and I doubt I'll ever meet one to say that to its face.

Although I do think people get a little too sensitive when called by the gender they most resemble (social construct or not) and they snap about identifying as a different gender (I also hate pronouns like 'ze' as opposed to the all rounder 'they'). I get mistaken for a woman on the phone a lot, so I do know where they're coming from. Compassion goes both ways, though.

I have a surprising number of trans friends, and I've found more than anything else they just want to be treated like normal people. I guess that's just my two cents. Thanks for doing this topic.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Sorry I haven't been responding, aside from sleeping I have a whole new reason not to be around. My box fan gave up the ghost, and considering it was the major cooling force for my computer... Damnit. My CPU idles at 54 Degrees Celsius with out a 20 inch box fan it's idle temp is 20 degrees higher. So forgive me for not being here to answer questions, Firefox actually causes my CPU to overheat.
 

Areloch

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Sorry I haven't been responding, aside from sleeping I have a whole new reason not to be around. My box fan gave up the ghost, and considering it was the major cooling force for my computer... Damnit. My CPU idles at 54 Degrees Celsius with out a 20 inch box fan it's idle temp is 20 degrees higher. So forgive me for not being here to answer questions, Firefox actually causes my CPU to overheat.
All you need to do is dunk that sucker in some mineral oil. The perfect cooling medium!
 

Redryhno

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Ah, good to finally have one of these show up and by someone I don't believe I've seen blow up about some less than "nice" questions, so I've got a couple that I've asked others and had...less than stellar replies.

I don't mean to be insensitive, but there seem to be very few FtM trans that act out and are generally as batshit oversensitive-insane proportionally to the MtF trans. Do you think there's something that screws with the male brain more or something? I'm aware there's that pathway similarity, but physically, you'll always be a dude beyond the skin and how you present yourself and I've been curious for a while now if the treatments most often used mess up a man's brain more than a woman's. Or if they were just batshit insane before and if that helps contribute to my confirmation bias.

Also, when would you say that someone believing themselves to be trans should start considering themselves as that? Personally it seems to be one of those things like sexuality that shouldn't really be confirmed until at least like 16. And even then not something that needs to be broadcast all that much.

shrekfan246 said:
Ihateregistering1 said:
In other words, how much does it matter that others acknowledge your identified gender even if it doesn't affect their behavior towards you?
I'm not the OP and I'm not trans myself so perhaps don't take my statement as uniformly definitive, but I imagine it would be incredibly rude and "othering" for someone to acknowledge that you have gender dysphoria and then refuse to refer to you by the correct pronouns anyway.

I mean, just imagine how you would feel if you knew somebody who would not call you by the pronouns that identify your gender, even after you politely ask them to respect the fact that you're not what they're calling you. It's like basing the entirety of a person's existence on their physical appearance, which just seems a bit dehumanizing to me.
I'm not the person your responded to either, but I think I can sorta answer with, no, not really. I grew up in an area where my first and middle name were abnormally popular and so Red has basically become my name. And it's never been me telling people to call me that, it's just always been a combination of my hair and ancestry when I'm not paler than the KKK's sheets because there's a million other Ryan's in earshot.

I know it's not exactly the same, but I've never really had a huge amount of attachment to my name and what I understand of trans is that they're not exactly attached to their birth gender.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Areloch said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Sorry I haven't been responding, aside from sleeping I have a whole new reason not to be around. My box fan gave up the ghost, and considering it was the major cooling force for my computer... Damnit. My CPU idles at 54 Degrees Celsius with out a 20 inch box fan it's idle temp is 20 degrees higher. So forgive me for not being here to answer questions, Firefox actually causes my CPU to overheat.
All you need to do is dunk that sucker in some mineral oil. The perfect cooling medium!
With my one tab browsing power I say: Hell no. If I dunk my machine in anything I'm just as likely to kill my self, fuck it up, make things better. My CPU is already coated in silver dunking it a liquid is just too dangerous for me. Heck Getting the liquid cooler running was scary... Also it's not helping.
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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Areloch said:
We get those people the medical support, surgeries, medicine, etc that they need to live as normal, but we don't restructure the major underpinnings of medicine and societal norms and the like around the off chance that a baby is born with those conditions.
In an ideal world, sure, it wouldn't be treated as anything special or strange.

Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world. Many people think trans men and women are just mentally ill, and there's still a huge social stigma on being mentally ill (i.e. if you're not portrayed as dangerous, you're generally portrayed as a joke). Plus, many people try to resort to biology and genetics to just straight up dismiss transgenderism (e.g. "you were born with a penis, how can you be a woman?"). As you said, it's basically a no-win scenario for everyone involved, the only way to scrape some sort of win out of it is to spread awareness until society as a whole does just treat everyone like a normal person. I don't know how feasible that is, considering racism and homophobia are still present, but I can hope.
 

Areloch

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Dec 10, 2012
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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Areloch said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Sorry I haven't been responding, aside from sleeping I have a whole new reason not to be around. My box fan gave up the ghost, and considering it was the major cooling force for my computer... Damnit. My CPU idles at 54 Degrees Celsius with out a 20 inch box fan it's idle temp is 20 degrees higher. So forgive me for not being here to answer questions, Firefox actually causes my CPU to overheat.
All you need to do is dunk that sucker in some mineral oil. The perfect cooling medium!
With my one tab browsing power I say: Hell no. If I dunk my machine in anything I'm just as likely to kill my self, fuck it up, make things better. My CPU is already coated in silver dunking it a liquid is just too dangerous for me. Heck Getting the liquid cooler running was scary... Also it's not helping.
Well, submerged units are technically easier than traditional watercooling setups, but yeah, I get not wanting to mess with it if you're not used to it. They're pretty awesome if you can get it set up though:


Lot harder to overheat if you keep the external radiator, too. The entire oil reservoir acts as your dissipation medium, not just the to-metal connection on a water cooler header.

shrekfan246 said:
Areloch said:
We get those people the medical support, surgeries, medicine, etc that they need to live as normal, but we don't restructure the major underpinnings of medicine and societal norms and the like around the off chance that a baby is born with those conditions.
In an ideal world, sure, it wouldn't be treated as anything special or strange.

Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world. Many people think trans men and women are just mentally ill, and there's still a huge social stigma on being mentally ill (i.e. if you're not portrayed as dangerous, you're generally portrayed as a joke). Plus, many people try to resort to biology and genetics to just straight up dismiss transgenderism (e.g. "you were born with a penis, how can you be a woman?"). As you said, it's basically a no-win scenario for everyone involved, the only way to scrape some sort of win out of it is to spread awareness until society as a whole does just treat everyone like a normal person. I don't know how feasible that is, considering racism and homophobia are still present, but I can hope.
Yeah, I hear that.
I just think shoving change like some people are is going to make things inherently more difficult for the switchover process. I mean, look at the people that talk about (I've seen several posts like that on these forums) how they're sympathetic to what trans people have to go through, but at this point they've heard about it so much and see it so much it just comes off as noise/whining.

It makes me wonder if the topic is getting over-talked about on the internet and it's begining to burn people out on it. Which given the slow progress in context of real life, wouldn't surprise me. Maybe it's an effect of slacktivism? It's easier to talk about it than go out and attempt to actually enact change.

Quite a complicated issue to ponder over.
 

LOLITRON

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I've always had trouble wrapping my head around the "male trapped in a female body" and vice versa idea, personally. If someone were to approach me and ask "What does it feel like, mentally, to be a man?" I would have absolutely no idea how to answer that question. So, when I hear the trans community speak as if they are trapped inside the wrong body, I'm legitimately puzzled by this. While I think the trans community deserves everyone's love and support, I've had a hard time buying into the rhetoric and I can't bring myself to advocate gender reassignment surgery just yet. It just seems too similar to other psychological disorders. I really and genuinily want to be on the other side of this issue because I feel like I'm the wrong side, but I feel like all I hear are appeals to emotion.
 

rorychief

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I'm confused about the semantics behind the statement 'transwomen are women' or 'transmen are men.'
I get that people might not want to highlight the trans part of their identity for whatever reason, and its nice to find solidarity among cis men or women in some shared experience.

But I do often get the impression that I'm being told to pretend there is no difference between a ciswoman and a transwoman. As though woman is the ideal so to call a transwoman a transwoman and not a woman is putting her down, making her out to be less than a woman. I go with it for politeness, even though their experiences are bound to be vastly different due to one being socially conditioned to be feminine all her life, and the other being conditioned to be masculine all her life, and though they both end up feminine in the end the paths they took there are so vastly different that to say 'They're both women', is to sweep a huge chunk of one's experience, insight and being under the rug for the sake of posterity.

To me, its like the phrase 'people are people, we're all the same.' Except when we're not, and when not being the same causes problems, and knowing what the differences between us are can help identify and solve those problems. Saying 'black and white people are equal' doesn't mean the same thing as 'black people ARE white people.' The second statement implies that white people are the ideal standard, and emphasizes that an approach to whiteness is an approach to equality.
Here you are after so long excluded and kept down, finally recognized for what you were all along, white people. Well done white people, you're just like any other white person now.
This is weird and wrong. Yet many people seem to treat 'transwomen ARE women' as though it means 'trans and ciswomen are equal, or have equal claim to identify as women.'

Am I wrong? Or am I supposed to imagine the statement is always directed at someone who believes 'transwomen are men', and is so dense that there can be no room for nuance in their re-education?
 

bauke67

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
We're all humans, but some people identify as non-human animals, or objects, for example.

Thank you that was all very insightful as it's just kind of a difficult thing to wrap ones head around. And I'm no expert on any of this, but are you saying identifying as an eagle or a rock is something on the same level as being transgendered? Because identifying as an object sounds rather silly. I'd like to understand exactly what your view is.
 

renegade7

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Silentpony said:
What happens if I self-identify as someone who doesn't believe you're trans-gendered?
But you present as someone who does believe he's transgendered? How does that work, exactly?

Couldn't I say that you disagreeing with me is bigoted, maybe even prejudiced?
No, because someone making a personal decision about him or herself doesn't affect you, but summarily dismissing the right or capacity of others to make existential decisions (ie what gender they are) does hurt others.