Heavy Rain Dev Says Pre-Owned Sales Cost it Millions

[Hipsy_Gypsy]

I can totally see what he means, especially in the long run of losing profits, however, I can't help but completely agree with:

Alright, a little bit of mathematics here:

3 million people played the game.

Only 2 million played it new.

Therefore, 1 million played it used.

Therefore around 1 million people would likely have traded it in.

Therefore, half the people who bought the game new decided to trade it in for another game.

Your're right there's a problem there. Make a fucking game good enough that half the people who buy it don't want to sell it fucking on. Don't go bitching about what certain people 'owe' you when you quite clearly couldn't make a game that kept people's attention!

That profit's only lost because of this and it's the developer's own fault when it really comes down to it. That being said, if it weren't for preowned sales, the developers would probably end up losing more if you think about it. Preowned tends to be a wee bit to quite a bit cheaper compared to brand new games (though I did get "Little Big Planet" the other week for just a fiver, brand new and all) which encourages people to actually buy the game at all. If that makes sense? I'm probably wrong somewhere but hopefully you'll see where I'm trying to come from, lol.


x

 

[fenrizz]

Dear Mr. de Fondaumiere.

It is with deep regret that I must inform you that I shall be crying no tears for you and your greedy friends in the video game industry.

Every other industry on earth has to deal with second hand sales.
Clothing, books, films, music, magazines and military jet figthers, to name a few.

The video game industry has never before in history made as much revenue as it does today, never before has it's market been so wast.
The global video game market is estimated to be worth around $65 billion.

You are living in the golden age Mr. de Fondaumiere, so stop whining and be glad that 2 million people gave you their money for your game in the first place.

 

[JoJo]

Tough shit. I dont see car manufacturers whining that half their cars get bought pre-owned...

This, I find it incredible that game manufacturers somehow expect for their industry to be different from every other industry ever. They should just be thankful there isn't a video-game equivalent of free public libraries.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

What needs to be done is pretty freaking clear. It's not the fault of the people buying the used games. You cannot blame people who're just looking for a legal bargain. What we need to do is force shops like Game or Gamestop in America, to still give a portion of any profit made from a game back to their respective companies. Like some sort of royalty. Obviously they aren't buying the games from them, but it could easily be made a legal requirement that they track any games they are given on trade in and are forced to send a percentage to the games publishers.

In all fairness this would probably mean that you would get a very small amount money when trading a game in and there wouldn't likely be as good bargains to be had. And that could kill the second hand business any way.

Droit de suite usually only gives back 2-4% of a sale back to the creator. In this case, that would be $2 or so on a used game at $55. In turn, they would have to cut out ALL the online passes/extra DLC stuff to people who only buy new. Else, they ARE making even extra money off of it. Which they'll never agree to.

 

[falcon1985]

Tough shit. I dont see car manufacturers whining that half their cars get bought pre-owned...

That comparison doesn't work. Used cars and used games are not the same, and neither are the industries behind them.

Fine, use books.

The two industries are highly alike, yet you don't hear book author's complaining about used book sales or how they're losing money to people sharing books amongst each other.

Thank you, that's the best comparison I've heard yet.

 

[akfg666]

I can see where this is coming from but surely once you have purchased the game it is technically YOUR property and you can do what you want with it.
Also would you rather pay £40 for a 5 hour game *cough*medalofhonor*cough* or would you rather wait for it to go down to a reasonable price so you don't feel quite so cheated out of your money.
Or quite simply MAKE DECENT GAMES THAT ARE WORTH £40!

 

[CrankyStorming]

This just in: libraries and second-hand bookshops pose greatest threat to printing industry.

This just in, books are really REALLY cheap to make and most second-hand bookshops exist to support charities anyway.

As for libraries, they're basically rental shops for books. Really, this is the direction video game sales should have gone down all along, where we can all play loads of games on the cheap and the creators still get paid for it.

 

[RagnaThePig]

This is not "lost money", Quantic Dream. This is money you never earned. You should not treat it as if that amount of money was yours and someone took it from you.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

Cry moar. Those aren't "lost sales". They are customers for whom the price of your product was too high. If they can't buy your game used they would buy something else, or do without.

Also dude is delusional

he thought that there was a price point that would make everyone - from the consumers to the publishers to the retailers - happy.

This is of course totally wrong. Consumers want great products for free, retailers want to make infinite money while making no investment and taking no risk, publishers want infinite money and total, cradle-to-grave control over "their" products. These are zero sum calculations and there is no way to increase the happiness of one group without decreasing the happiness of another.

I can't wait for the future where all the parasitic middle men, by which I mean publishers AND retailers, die off and there is no longer a barrier between the creators and the customers. It is on the horizon and it will be glorious.

 

[fenrizz]

What needs to be done is pretty freaking clear. It's not the fault of the people buying the used games. You cannot blame people who're just looking for a legal bargain. What we need to do is force shops like Game or Gamestop in America, to still give a portion of any profit made from a game back to their respective companies. Like some sort of royalty. Obviously they aren't buying the games from them, but it could easily be made a legal requirement that they track any games they are given on trade in and are forced to send a percentage to the games publishers.

In all fairness this would probably mean that you would get a very small amount money when trading a game in and there wouldn't likely be as good bargains to be had. And that could kill the second hand business any way.

Do you realize what kind of precedence that would set in courts for every other industry in America?

If the video game industry, then shy not book publishers?
Why not film companies and car manufacturers?

Besides, after a product is sold the manufacturer/publisher no linger owns it, and is not entitled nor deserves any money of that product is resold.

 

[Hashbrick]

Sell the games at a cheaper price, more people will jump on a $30-40 price tag than $60. If you sell it cheaper, more will buy it and you won't be bitching. There is a logical solution to this probably just the marketing suits want to see the numbers with a $60 price tag. It's not the consumers fault they want to pick up a game for $6-10 cause it was complete and utter trash at the $60 price tag, when the value isn't there the value isn't there you can't force someone to like your shit and pay for it on your price terms. After mindjack I stopped purchasing obscure games at full price. That game was maybe at best worth $20 and should have just been just downloaded format. All it takes is one ripoff to make a sour industry.

 

[Aeshi]

Alright, a little bit of mathematics here:

3 million people played the game.

Only 2 million played it new.

Therefore, 1 million played it used.

Therefore around 1 million people would likely have traded it in.

Therefore, half the people who bought the game new decided to trade it in for another game.

Your're right there's a problem there. Make a fucking game good enough that half the people who buy it don't want to sell it fucking on. Don't go bitching about what certain people 'owe' you when you quite clearly couldn't make a game that kept people's attention!

Heavy Rain isn't exactly a replayable game though, it doesn't matter how good your game is, it'll still get passed on once its original owner has finished playing through it.

 

[Vivi22]

Alright, a little bit of mathematics here:

3 million people played the game.

Only 2 million played it new.

Therefore, 1 million played it used.

Therefore around 1 million people would likely have traded it in.

Therefore, half the people who bought the game new decided to trade it in for another game.

Your're right there's a problem there. Make a fucking game good enough that half the people who buy it don't want to sell it fucking on. Don't go bitching about what certain people 'owe' you when you quite clearly couldn't make a game that kept people's attention!

There are two problems with this argument. First, at MOST half of those who bought it traded it in or resold it. But this likely isn't the case since people who buy used may still trade it in when they're done. I know a lot of people who keep almost none of their games unless they have a lot of replay value. And while Heavy Rain has multiple choices you can make throughout the game, and several endings, I have to admit that the experience that is the game has less replay value than a lot of other titles out there.

Also, you assume that people who traded in the game did it because they didn't like it or the game wasn't good enough. I'm sure this was probably the case for a portion of those, but like I said, there are a lot of people who just don't hold onto games, especially single player ones. They play them, then get some money out of them towards something new.

I'm not trying to say you don't have a point, but your numbers are a bit exaggerated, and you can't really say for sure why people traded the game in. It'd be worth it for Quantic Dream to try and find out, but it's all just speculation. Other games that are a lot more main stream get traded in just as often as Heavy Rain did, if not more (at least from what I see on the shelf of the local Gamestop, even factoring in sales differentials). Are you going to argue the only reason people trade other games in is because they aren't good enough?

Estimated 3 million? Where did that number come from?

You can't throw out an estimate when it comes to used games and expect to be taken seriously.

Well, in theory if Sony can see trophy data for every PS3 that is registered and active on the PSN then they could have a pretty reasonable estimate of how many people played it. It may not be exact since there may be multiple accounts on a single system, PS3's not connected to the internet, etc. But it's going to be a pretty good estimate of the overall number.

I have no idea if that's where he's getting his numbers from, but it seems pretty likely.

 

[Irridium]

Oh fuck you.

The gameing industry is so behind on customer benefits/rights it's just disgusting. And they seem to keep trying to take away the very few that we actually have left.

What's fucking more disgusting is that they seem to be convincing gamers that what they're doing is right. And people are actually believing them.

Just fucking horrifying.

 

[IPunchWithMyFists]

Deal with it, spunky, every media ever has had to deal with after-market sales and you're no fucking different.

 

[For.I.Am.Mad]

More theoretical dollars lost because of the used game market. Why is the games industry the only industry complaining about this.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Tough shit. I dont see car manufacturers whining that half their cars get bought pre-owned...

That comparison doesn't work. Used cars and used games are not the same, and neither are the industries behind them.

Try used DVD sales then.
Or music.
Or books...

Do you hear any of the people in these industries whining the way the games industry does about second hand sales?

No. I've never heard this complaint from ANY industry, (whatever it's basis or business model).

It's a complaint unique to the games industry, and because of that it comes across as a rather pathetic form of whining about how unfair it is. (when in reality what you're asking for is special treatment that nobody else gets.)

I'm very close to being a game developer myself, yet that doesn't stop me from noticing just what it is that's really being said here.

Honestly... Complaining about piracy is one thing. But acting like a spoilt little child because people should (apparently) be paying you for used copies of your stuff is just disgusting, and makes me think a lot of people in the industry have their head stuck up their own ass.

 

[Frostbite3789]

Tough shit. I dont see car manufacturers whining that half their cars get bought pre-owned...

That comparison doesn't work. Used cars and used games are not the same, and neither are the industries behind them.

Fine, use books.

The two industries are highly alike, yet you don't hear book author's complaining about used book sales or how they're losing money to people sharing books amongst each other.

Thank you, that's the best comparison I've heard yet.

How is that a good comparison? Writing is one single portion of creating a video game. You still have the writing and editing part and everything that goes with creating a book, on top of all that pesky "making the actual game" part.

The closest would be movies, and movie theaters do a damn good job of gouging prices. $10 for 2 hours of entertainment vs. $60 for as much entertainment as you're willing to glean from it, if it has a multiplayer component.

And if you buy used games you save, what? $5 maybe? You can save more than that by exhibiting this thing I like to call 'patience' and looking for a sale. Every week, every retailer has some collection of games on sale, shocking I know.

Try used DVD sales then.
Or music.
Or books...

Do you hear any of the people in these industries whining the way the games industry does about second hand sales?

Yes. And lets not forget the shitfit movies, books and music have thrown over digital distribution. Something gaming has embraced pretty readily, all things considered.

Or have we already forgotten that? Or more likely, like to omit things that don't support our argument.

 

[The Lunatic]

Yup, that's how pre-owned sales work.

Welcome to the world of retail.

Get used to it.