Heavy Rain Dev Says Pre-Owned Sales Cost it Millions

[Azuaron]

I would love to see games go download only and (here's the sticking point) publishers buy them back from you when you're done playing them.

How else will I cut down on the crap in my Steam library? (Why would I play Knights of Honor when I have Europa Universalis III? Or Left 4 Dead when I have Left 4 Dead 2?)

 

[Beautiful End]

Tough shit. I dont see car manufacturers whining that half their cars get bought pre-owned...

Thank you! This alone should settle this argument.

I'm not gonna repeat myself over the countless threads that discuss used game sells. It's as simple as this:

Does it suck for some? Yes.
Can we do something about it? Not really. Used games sales will continue even when Gamestop is long gone (Exhibit A: eBay, Craig's list, etc.)
Is it a crime? Hell no. If it was, no one would openly say it. it's like selling drugs; you don't see wal-mart selling acid or marijuana (Let's not get too literal here, btw. I'm talking about major drugs, not prescriptions). On top of that, you would have to arrest everyone! If you sell your cousin your old copy of Devil May Cry, guess what? Crime! So no, I don't think so.

Look, it's as simple as this: Awesome games are usually reserved by people, meaning they'll buy it brand new. If the game truly is awesome and has a high replay value, no one will sell it back. That's the reason why you don't see that many used copies of Black Ops and you see thousands of used Homefront copies. Yes, Black Ops was smart enough to keep the replay value high with the map packs and stuff.

Developers are allowed to add stuff like that to invite people to get the game brand new and keep it forever. But the truth is, people will want to sell their stuff someday! If I'm in need of 5 bucks and I have a copy of Jak 3 that I can sell for 5 bucks, you bet I'll sell the game since I don't play it anymore!
So I don't see why they're complaining about it, these developers. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, they're losing money. But what can they do? Truly, nothing. Like I said, even if the major retailers stop doing this, it will continue. And then next thing you know, used car sales will be affected, used books, used electronics, used clothes, etc.

Geez, us gamers can be such drama queens.

EDIT: Oh, and the major reason for me to buy used games?

-If the game is crap, I'm sure as fuck not gonna spend 60 bucks on it. I prefer to buy it cheaper if I must have, don't care if it's just a few bucks.
-If I already bought the game and I regret it with all my heart, I can return it! New games? You're stuck with them. That's what you get for not doing your research, you poor, average gamer.
-Developers usually decide to ignore their old games to favor new copies. So if you wanna find a brand new copy of, let's say, Silent Hill 2 or MvC2, good luck with that! I have only been able to find them used and they're waaaaay cheaper than what people are asking for a brand new copy of it (Silent Hill 2 brand new for a 100 bucks?! No, thanks. I'm okay with my slightly damaged box and my okay condition game. As long as it plays, I could care less if it comes with a free golden egg).

 

[stormcrow5]

When i hear that people lost money over used game sales i alwase find it wierd and it sounds just kinda greedy. For it to be a used game it needs to be bought once right? so then the company gets the money from that 1 game so when the person is done with it trades it in or sells it off and the company wants more money from the second hand game sale? It just seems kinda greedy on their part because they already got the money from the buyer who got bored of it and now they want more for every person who owns it? But since shops like EB and stuff are makeing massive profit off it i can kinda see why they would want the easy cash on top of it

 

[evosero]

Tough shit. I dont see car manufacturers whining that half their cars get bought pre-owned...

Car manufacturers also make money by leasing and financing cars, not to mention overpriced extras and fees. Cars also depreciate based on usage and wear and require maintenance.

The car analogy would, if anything, be more appropriate applied to the consoles themselves, but not the games. The only thing that changes about a game over time is if the online servers get discontinued, but there's no parallel to that with cars where after 5 years your Ford can just get bricked from Detroit.

Alright, a little bit of mathematics here:

3 million people played the game.

Only 2 million played it new.

Therefore, 1 million played it used.

Therefore around 1 million people would likely have traded it in.

Therefore, half the people who bought the game new decided to trade it in for another game.

Your're right there's a problem there. Make a fucking game good enough that half the people who buy it don't want to sell it fucking on. Don't go bitching about what certain people 'owe' you when you quite clearly couldn't make a game that kept people's attention!

The problem with the pre-owned game market isn't so much that people are trading them in, but the selling of used copies.

It's a combination of publishers and gamers that are to blame, but has less to do with the quality than anything. Two parts are the gamers. One is that it seems gamers seem to abandon games quicker then ever. Whether it's trying to play all four big releases without waiting, or having to have the new version, or blackmail (see below, though that's the publishers too). Two are cheap/stupid gamers, where they can afford $50-55 on a video game, but not $60. Of course that $50 copy was bought off another customer for probably $25-30. Cheap because its' $5-10 difference. And stupid because you could find that same game to buy for around that $25-30 trade-in value online.

The blackmail part, is where so many games are released annually, with so much emphasis on online modes, you get blackmailed. A lot of people I'm sure are forced into upgrading a version of a game. You buy that new Madden or NHL, or CoD or whatever annual release because as soon as it's out, last year's online community will drop dramatically and the year before probably ceased to exist a while ago.

Try playing NHL 10 even during last season and online was dead. That game was only 12-16 months old. 5-10 years ago and beyond few people bought it every year (and there was no online except on PC), and EA was routinely criticized for releasing sports games every year essentially charging $60 for a roster update. So you're forced to upgrade every 2 years at most, and really every year to have the best online experience.

And with more games released annually that aren't even sports, like Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed, it's surprising people get so pissed over $15 "VIP" passes instead of the real online fee which is a $60 game.

 

[Low Key]

Why do these companies have to whine so much about pre-owned sales? Protip: No one outside of the video game industry gives a fuck. Seriously. I think I read at least one of these kinds of stories every week.

If it's such a detrimental issue, you probably should stop making video games and find another job.

 

[StriderShinryu]

Tough shit. I dont see car manufacturers whining that half their cars get bought pre-owned...

That comparison doesn't work. Used cars and used games are not the same, and neither are the industries behind them.

Try used DVD sales then.
Or music.
Or books...

Okay, I will. DVDs and book sales both exist in the realms of industries with multiple viable revenue streams. Movies make money in various ways from domestic theater screenings to international screenings to associated merchanising to television rights to, yes, DVD sales (not to mention the almost guaranteed multiple editions of DVD release for larger pictures). Price and time are also major considerations regarding used DVDs. Used DVDs cost much less than new DVD and aren't always available in number shortly after initial release.

Books also have multiple releases, hardcover, softcover and pocketbook as well as many being optioned for movie rights. If a book is successful, it will also be reprinted numerous times, possibly with different covers and additional content, each release also possibly being released in multiple formats. There's also the major consideration that often used books don't cost anywhere near as much as new books (my local used book stores sell copies for 1/3 to 1/2 of cover price). Someone who buys a used book may well not be willing/able to buy it new. Time is an issue here as well.

Music is much the same given that CDs have long essentially just been seen as advertising for the real revenue maker: live shows. And then merchandising, multiple releases, special edition releases, etc.

Games, as things stand at the moment, have one viable revenue stream: a new copy sale. If a game doesn't make money based on new copy sales, generally within a month or three of release, then it doesn't make money at all. Time is a major factor when you consider that used copies of new games are on the shelf days after initial release, generally for prices that do distract from new sales. If someone can buy a game for $55 then there is little doubt they could have purchased it for $60, and just as likely would have if the option wasn't so readily available. DLC is all well and good, but it doesn't make a lot of extra money if it's considered the worthwhile sort of DLC that actually sells well simply because it takes just as much time/money to produce as the base game.

It's rather obvious why the games industry would take a harsher stance on used sales than other industries if you just look at the facts.

 

[Dogstile]

Tough shit. I dont see car manufacturers whining that half their cars get bought pre-owned...

That comparison doesn't work. Used cars and used games are not the same, and neither are the industries behind them.

Prams, films, toys, lego, parts? Any of those do you?

The used market is a consumer right, taking it away is a fucking stupid idea.

 

[DEAD34345]

Every one of those used games has already been purchased in full. If people choose to resell their games then that is up to them. Once a company sells a copy of a game, they don't own that copy any more, and they shouldn't have any right to decide what the customer decides to do with it.

Unfortunately, since we don't actually own the games we buy any more, companies will keep finding more and more ways to take our rights away from us. What I don't understand is why some gamers actually seem to want them to.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

That's the nature of the used market, get over it. It's not like Ford keeps pissing and moaning at me because I bought a used car. Epitaph(record company) doesn't ***** because I bought a used CD. MGM doesn't ***** when I buy used DVDs. Why, games industry, should you get to throw a fucking tantrum when people buy your game used?

 

[magnuslion]

"He estimates that three million people played the game, but only Quantic Dream only saw money from two million sales."

2 mil sales. x$60.00 each. $120,000,000.

willing to bet it did not cost more than 20 mil to make.

Not profitable.

The fuck?

enjoy being bullshitted by developers folks. what he means is that he didnt make enough money to buy a second yacht. If you think that all game developers are starving, struggling artists, think again.

 

[RikuoAmero]

Heavy Rain developers actually cost me money. I bought the Platinum Move Edition advertised three times on the case to come with DLC, move support and other goodies.
Did I get what was promised to me? No! The Move support had to be added in with a 1,142 MB patch (so why bother releasing a "Move Edition" if you don't include it on the disc!) and the DLC I couldn't even frikken download! Something to do with the wrong version of the disc, only that the "correct" version wasn't being sold in my country.
Therefore, these developers can just go F*ck off!

 

[Lord Beautiful]

Make a fucking game good enough that half the people who buy it don't want to sell it fucking on. Don't go bitching about what certain people 'owe' you when you quite clearly couldn't make a game that kept people's attention!

And this is almost exactly what I intended to say.

Designers, if you want us to buy your games new, make them worth buying new.

 

[esperandote]

I didn't buy or play the game, did you missed those potential $60 too?

Complain about piracy instead of people that buy your games legitimaly, dumbass.

 

[cynicalsaint1]

I have absolutely no sympathy here.

I mean I get that used game sales suck for developers and publishers, but the way the dude goes on about it is incredibly misinformed and arrogant. He seems to assume that everyone who bought the game would have bought it new if they couldn't buy it used, which of course isn't true.

The fact of the matter is that the people who bought it used didn't think it was worth their $60 for a new purchase. Killing off used sales would only make gaming too expensive for those who can't afford the current price of games.

That doesn't help anyone.
Lowering new game prices, or adding value to a new purchase is probably the best option.

 

[JaredXE]

Whiny *****, he lost nothing.

When will developers and publishers stop putting forward that stupidly illogical idea that used games and piracy steals from them? No, it doesn't. Stealing would be someone going into Nintendo's money vault and taking several million out. THAT is "losing" money. Having people buy your game used instead of not buying it at all is called a great chance to market to them so that next time, they WILL buy it new.

Sick and tired of trumped up "Losses" numbering in the millions when all it is is imaginary money that they might have gotten.

 

[mrblakemiller]

This just reminds me of the record industry going after Napster. On one hand, I understand that sharing music was and is illegal. On the other hand, if you don't want me to burn a copy of my CD and give it to my friend, don't sell me a CD I can burn. If you can't make a CD that won't burn, then you're in the wrong industry.

This applies across the board: You can't sell me a physical copy of your product and then demand that I use it only in the ways you allow. If I want to sell it back to GameStop and get some money back, that's my prerogative. If you have a problem with that, go work for a food company whose product I can't sell back.

 

[BakedAlaskan]

What a bleeting moaning b*stard this guy is for complaining he hasn't made enough millions for his 'game'. Did he refer to how much wasted capital and plastic went into producing a Move version of Hard Rain which failed utterly and didnt even sell. Try shifting even the trade-in copies and you'll see how soon after release date his products devalue. Super Mario Galaxy and GoW3 are still selling for a higher price than Hard Rain either way- that decision is based on consumer feedback. And no, I would never have played hard rain were it not for the industry saving device that is trade-in.

 

[Strixvaliano]

I'm tired of these spoiled rotten developers and publishers kicking up a shit fit like a two year old over used sales. In no other industry do you see people acting like absolute babies over legitimate second hand sales of goods.

I'm sorry that your overpriced game that got 2 million new sales didn't do "good enough" for you Mr. Fondaumiere. Actually wait, no i'm not. Screw you and your company I'll just take my business elsewhere until you and every other company that cries over this retarded crap gets over acting like spoiled man-children.

I usually hate buying preowned anyway because I don't know how previous owners treated the merchandise but I'm not going to go around pretty much treating anyone who buys pre-owned like a thief and blight on the industry.

Edit: 2 Million brand new sales. If at $60 per copy they would have made $120,000,000 and that isn't good enough? Even at $20 per copy that is still $40,000,000. Give me a damn break.

 

[Doom972]

I never played it (I want to, but don't have a PS3), but I played Fahrenheit and I know Heavy Rain is better because they didn't run out of money halfway into development (Or so I've heard).

This sort of game (Basically an interactive movie with QTEs) has very little replay value, so why shouldn't people be able to resell it?
A game like this would've sold better as a digital distribution only and/or if it wasn't a PS3 exclusive.

 

[Donbett1974]

Seeing you can buy pretty much buy anything pre-owned from books to medical equipment just show how weak the gaming industry argument is.