Heavy Rain Dev Says Pre-Owned Sales Cost it Millions

[mighty_honour_korea]

Stop selling in brick and mortar stores. Take the money you save on overheads (manufacturing, storage etc.) and slash the price of the game. Cheaper games, easily accessible, impossible to sell on.

Does it work? Valve are trying to figure out how to implement used game trade-ins with their digital platform. That's right, this system that according to shitty developers is killing their bottom line may be implemented voluntarily by Valve.

Stop making excused and go make better games. Nobody's buying Starcraft 2 second hand.

 

[RikuoAmero]

This just reminds me of the record industry going after Napster. On one hand, I understand that sharing music was and is illegal. On the other hand, if you don't want me to burn a copy of my CD and give it to my friend, don't sell me a CD I can burn. If you can't make a CD that won't burn, then you're in the wrong industry.

This applies across the board: You can't sell me a physical copy of your product and then demand that I use it only in the ways you allow. If I want to sell it back to GameStop and get some money back, that's my prerogative. If you have a problem with that, go work for a food company whose product I can't sell back.

Only too true, friend. I actually think its illegal, especially in the realm of PC gaming, for me to go to a store, pick up a copy of the game from the shelve, go to the till, hand over cash, only to see an EULA/TOS. This is the developer telling me what I can do with a product I should own. If the developer sat me down and we signed something BEFORE I paid, fine, but you don't limit someone's use of their goods AFTER the sale.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Tough shit. I dont see car manufacturers whining that half their cars get bought pre-owned...

That comparison doesn't work. Used cars and used games are not the same, and neither are the industries behind them.

Fine, use books.

The two industries are highly alike, yet you don't hear book author's complaining about used book sales or how they're losing money to people sharing books amongst each other.

Thank you, that's the best comparison I've heard yet.

How is that a good comparison? Writing is one single portion of creating a video game. You still have the writing and editing part and everything that goes with creating a book, on top of all that pesky "making the actual game" part.

The closest would be movies, and movie theaters do a damn good job of gouging prices. $10 for 2 hours of entertainment vs. $60 for as much entertainment as you're willing to glean from it, if it has a multiplayer component.

And if you buy used games you save, what? $5 maybe? You can save more than that by exhibiting this thing I like to call 'patience' and looking for a sale. Every week, every retailer has some collection of games on sale, shocking I know.

And that's relevant... How, exactly? This industry doesn't deserve some kind of special treatment just because...

Used sales are a fact of life for everyone that sells things. Whining about it is just that; Whining.

I mean, used sales are defended by law... This is almost like a pirate complaining that those nasty content providers keep trying to shut down their websites...

First sale doctrine. Look it up.

Try used DVD sales then.
Or music.
Or books...

Do you hear any of the people in these industries whining the way the games industry does about second hand sales?

Yes. And lets not forget the shitfit movies, books and music have thrown over digital distribution. Something gaming has embraced pretty readily, all things considered.

Or have we already forgotten that? Or more likely, like to omit things that don't support our argument.

How does that red herring have anything to do with what we're talking about exactly?
These groups threw a fit about digital distribution because they didn't understand it.

And really, why is it surprising that gaming has embraced it when these others have not?

Books, music and film have been around longer than computers have. Games exist solely because of computers, and are an inherently digital product.

It makes sense that the people whose chosen medium is inherently digital would be better able to understand and cope with the implications of digital distribution.

But even then, none of that is relevant to why game developers and publishers feel like they deserve special treatment.

Digital distribution was something new that older industries stuggled to adapt to.

Second hand sales have existed for about as long as people have been selling stuff.
And being blind-sided by it, or somehow considering it unfair (when even your own industry has been subject to it for it's entire existence), is just... Pathetic.

It's a bunch of people demanding special treatment for no good reason. They are not poor victims; They're perfectly capable of making a lot of money even with this restriction (that everyone else in business has to deal with as well), but instead of trying to figure out a better strategy that improves their profits while taking this into account, they sit around and whine about how unfair it is that they aren't getting preferential treatment.

And no, nothing about the way games are made, or the amount they cost to develop makes them 'special', or justifies their demands that they get something nobody else does.

It can't even be justified on the grounds of being charitable or compassionate, because it's not like these people can't make money or survive, or even earn quite a lot doing what they're doing (if they were more careful)... They just want more, and don't want to make any effort to do so.

 

[Ian Caronia]

Boo-hoo, you whiny jackass. Your game was stupid and nonsensical anyway.

Maybe I'll give a shit when you decide to pluck your head out of your ass and write a coherent narrative.

Waste of sixty dollars, I mean it. I bought it new, liked it until I saw who the killer was, realized nothing made sense, and gave it back to Gamestop specifically so this kind of thing would happen. I feel good knowing this pompous ass is bitching about losing money from used games.

 

[The-Epicly-Named-Man]

F*ck off, Quantic Dream. You should be happy that 3 million people risked there cash on something that could have been potentially sh*te (and yeah, I know, it was only decent).

 

[theriddlen]

I hate it when people use wrong words to describe something just to make their words seem as something different than idiotic rant.

People constantly that with piracy, calling it stealing instead of copyright infringement. And for some time now, same kind of drama queens cry that something cost them, or that they lost money, when what they're really mean is that they just didn't get money they weren't entitled to anyways. It's just like saying that they lost a trillion dollars because 6 billions of people didn't buy their game even though they had enough money to do so, those assholes. You can dream, lads, but don't feel entitled to something even after people had already voted with their wallets, because you are just showing that you're a bunch of spoiled brats.

 

[Aggieknight]

If this guy was actually smart, he would learn from how other industries adapted to second hand sales instead of whining about it.

 

[FamoFunk]

Alright, a little bit of mathematics here:

3 million people played the game.

Only 2 million played it new.

Therefore, 1 million played it used.

Therefore around 1 million people would likely have traded it in.

Therefore, half the people who bought the game new decided to trade it in for another game.

Your're right there's a problem there. Make a fucking game good enough that half the people who buy it don't want to sell it fucking on. Don't go bitching about what certain people 'owe' you when you quite clearly couldn't make a game that kept people's attention!

Err, just because 1 million people traded it in, doesn't mean they didn't like it or want to play it.

Sometimes, when games have been 100% or whatever, why not give them a second life to someone else and you can get a new game out of it, too!

 

[Doom972]

Does it work? Valve are trying to figure out how to implement used game trade-ins with their digital platform. That's right, this system that according to shitty developers is killing their bottom line may be implemented voluntarily by Valve.

Wasn't this rumor dismissed? I didn't manage to find anything confirming it.
I would love to sell my digital copy of Splinter Cell Double Agent.

 

[Vivi22]

"He estimates that three million people played the game, but only Quantic Dream only saw money from two million sales."

2 mil sales. x$60.00 each. $120,000,000.

willing to bet it did not cost more than 20 mil to make.

Not profitable.

The fuck?

enjoy being bullshitted by developers folks. what he means is that he didnt make enough money to buy a second yacht. If you think that all game developers are starving, struggling artists, think again.

For the record, the developer is only going to see a relatively small percentage of that money. Most of it is going to go to the publishers and retailers and anyone in between. Not that I'm agreeing with the guy's sentiment about used sales (I don't think they're a threat to the industry, nor do I think we should ever lose the ability to sell used games), but if anything the threat he's pointing out is one of the current state of AAA development. When you make games with $20-50 million plus budgets you need to sell a lot to make that back. Particularly if you're only getting 10-20% of that, or whatever the numbers happen to be.

Sure the allure of being the next COD and raking in sales in the billions is tempting, but it's also not a feasible business model. Which is part of why we see a lot of game developers close shop after they release a title and don't get the sales they needed, even if the numbers they got were respectable. Developers need to look at the business models they're working under now, as opposed to trying to stem the tide of something that is out of their hands, and only alienates customers when they try to screw with it. Your typical AAA development is just about as risky as it gets, and it is not a viable business model for most developers.

 

[Xanthious]

Allow me to rewrite this entire article to save some folks a lot of time.

Yet another arrogant, over entitled developer feels his industry should be immune to something every other maker and seller of goods in the history of goods being created and sold has had to deal with because his shitty game isn't worth the price tag it has attatched to it

See how much time you could of saved by just paraphrasing it?

 

[Sewer Rat]

Welcome to the entertainment business! Nearly every form of entertainment has a second hand market, books, dvds, records/cds, you name it. Games are no different. Yes you could argue that they should take a cut from game stores, and frankly I encourage this, not to help the gaming companies, no sir, rather to eliminate the unnecessary middle man that is game stop and it's equivelants. As much as you folks may say this is the ideal solution, it would lead to increased prices on used games and lower resale value, and would drive many people to just selling their used games themselves on sites such as Ebay. If you eliminate Gamestop/eb/etc you won't be eliminating the used game market, you will just be moving it.
like I said, used markets exist for all entertainment mediums, yet it is the gaming companies that are easily the most vocal when it comes to complaining about it. Think of it this way, Heavy Rain sold 2 million new copies at around $60 US each, that is still roughly $120,000,000 US. To me, that equates to a ton of money, so I doubt we'll be seeing the dev team for heavy rain lining up at the soup kitchen any time soon.

 

[Baresark]

This is not "lost money", Quantic Dream. This is money you never earned. You should not treat it as if that amount of money was yours and someone took it from you.

You saved me the trouble of pointing this out.

OT: You can't have stolen what was never yours. End of story. If someone offers you a million dollars, you say yes, then they change their mind, you can't say they stole a million dollars from you. The fact is, while the game was very unique, I rented it through gamefly... so, why isn't gamefly the horrible culprit here. Also, the game was never worth $60. You may need to charge that much for it, but that is because you poorly invested.

 

[Realitycrash]

Yeah, let's make it illegal/impossible for me to sell something that I rightfully own.
You know, If I buy a DVD, I can sell it to a friend, you know this, right?
I can sell a book.
I can sell a car.
I can sell a house.
I can sell whatever I want because it's fucking mine.
But you're worried that the biggest threat to the industry is people selling what is rightfully theirs?
Funny, from my point of view, the biggest threat to the industry is greedy, corporate douche-bags.

If you want people to hold on to a game, maybe make it good enough to begin with. Maybe give me a reason to not sell it.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

long post

Yes what you are talking about can be summarized as profit maximization and attempts to capture [link href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_surplus"]consumer surplus[/link]

The publisher doesn't know the profit maximizing price point so they guess based on their experience with he market or in the case of games they just say "$60". We can assume the people who bought used would prefer to buy new if the price was the same as used. So this is the publisher's fault for failure to have price flexibility.

But it still is a zero sum game, the publisher wants the maximum profits, the customer wants the lowest price, but that is still a loss for the retailer. The retailer maximizes profits by cutting out the publisher and going used games. That is why they don't stock many new copies and continuously pimp used games.

 

[Xanthious]

This waste of DNA should be happy his game sold 2 million new copies in my opinion. Let's be honest, Heavy Rain was a game you could rent on Friday night and get the full experience from over the course of a weekends worth of play. I could probably get more entertainment value for my 60 dollars buying a couple DVDs I enjoy a new book and still have enough left over to order out for pizza.

 

[Baresark]

Welcome to the entertainment business! Nearly every form of entertainment has a second hand market, books, dvds, records/cds, you name it. Games are no different. Yes you could argue that they should take a cut from game stores, and frankly I encourage this, not to help the gaming companies, no sir, rather to eliminate the unnecessary middle man that is game stop and it's equivelants. As much as you folks may say this is the ideal solution, it would lead to increased prices on used games and lower resale value, and would drive many people to just selling their used games themselves on sites such as Ebay. If you eliminate Gamestop/eb/etc you won't be eliminating the used game market, you will just be moving it.

Well, the gaming market exists as it does today because of those middlemen. The vast majority of game sales are still done through them. No reason to eliminate them at all, the little bit of competition they provide benefits everyone. I don't know why people treat them like they are so horrible. I mostly PC game, so I don't deal with them a whole lot, but the few dealings I have with them have all been pleasant.

 

[Asehujiko]

a whiny shit with delusions of entitlement

Somebody should ask this guy if he had his old car scrapped when he bought a new one or burned down his old house when he moved out. He's either a raging hypocrite or a raging idiot depending on his answer.

 

[Sonicron]

Well then, Mr de Fondaumiere, I'm glad I didn't contribute to this horrible travesty and simply paid 5 Euros to rent Heavy Rain for three days, only one of which was needed to complete your interactive movie. I do this with almost every game, sir, and if I deem it good enough to warrant a purchase, I'll gladly shell out my money to buy it. Sadly, your 'game' didn't even come close to that appellation; I guess you really do need more than spiffy graphics to win some people over.

Funny how the games industry didn't ***** and whine like this back in the cartridge days, huh?