Help with commas?

[Ajna]

I've been typing a paper for one of my classes that has to do with the court case "Tinker v. Des Moines". The person I asked to proofread my paper pointed out two sentences that I think are right, even after they pointed them out, but they claim are wrong.

1: "The Tinkers filed a suit in the District Court[comma?] but the Court determined that, though symbolic speech was protected by the first amendment, the school officials had the right to suspend the students to prevent a disturbance."

2: "The First and Fourteenth Amendments protect the speech of American citizens[comma?] however, neither defines what a school can limit in order to provide a teaching environment."

I bolded the phrase "[comma?]" in each case (I couldn't find a way to draw attention to an actual comma. Couldn't bold it, color it, italicize it, etc.). I figured I'd come here because this is probably the smartest place on the internet (at least, when it comes to grammar).

 

[ILPPendant]

Putting a comma before a conjunction is usually unnecessary so in both cases a comma wouldn't be required. Some people put them in to force the reader to take a pause - they are using what is known as the Oxford comma - but it's certainly not mandatory.

I suggest you go with what's consistent for your writing style. Personally I'd leave it out but that's just my taste.

 

[Ajna]

Putting a comma before a conjunction is usually unnecessary so in both cases a comma wouldn't be required. Some people put them in to force the reader to take a pause - they are using what is known as the Oxford comma - but it's certainly not mandatory.

I suggest you go with what's consistent for your writing style. Personally I'd leave it out but that's just my taste.

An Oxford comma? I'll have to remember that phrase.

My rule for commas isn't to remember all the different ways to use them, and when (as I recall, there are eleven different rules for when to use a comma). I just think "Would I pause here while talking?", and if the answer is "yes", I put a comma there.

Oxford comma... Need to remember that.

 

[sooperman]

Let's see...

"The Tinkers filed a suit in the District Court[,] but the Court determined that, though symbolic speech was protected by the first amendment, the school officials had the right to suspend the students to prevent a disturbance."


2: "The First and Fourteenth Amendments protect the speech of American citizens[.] 'H'owever, neither defines what a school can limit in order to provide a teaching environment."

That just makes sense to me. Good luck with the paper.

 

[CosmicGrenade]

On the second one I would say
The First and Fourteenth Amendments protect the speech of American citizens. However, neither defines what a school can limit in order to provide a teaching environment.

but thats how I would type it

 

[megalomania]

Just a note. The Oxford comma refers to commas before conjunctions in lists of items, not in normal sentence structure. Using a comma before a conjunction in a normal sentence (i.e. not listed) is generally seen as unnecessary.

 

[Ajna]

2: "The First and Fourteenth Amendments protect the speech of American citizens[.] 'H'owever, neither defines what a school can limit in order to provide a teaching environment."

That just makes sense to me. Good luck with the paper.

On the second one I would say
The First and Fourteenth Amendments protect the speech of American citizens. However, neither defines what a school can limit in order to provide a teaching environment.

but thats how I would type it

Originally, the second sentence was two sentences. But my proofreader pointed out that that was a "fragment".

 

[ILPPendant]

Ah, now if you're going to remember it I should probably clarify a little more.

The Oxford comma is a comma placed before a conjunction - and, but, however etc. - which is either a pacing aid or in an effort to combat certain ambiguities that a lack of comma might introduce.

It's worth remembering that it can also introduce ambiguities however.

Generally American style guides seem to prefer its use while British style guides (with the obvious exception of Oxford's) are more ambivalent.

Finally, if you're going to be doing a lot of essay writing it might be worth just going through a grammar book one day since instinct and intuition sometimes aren't enough for perfect comma use. You should be fine for the time being, but being confident in your grammar is a very powerful weapon when you're under pressure.

EDIT: @CosmicGrenade
Many authorities do not approve of starting a sentence with a conjunction unless there's a clear stylistic reason for doing so. In the context of an analytical essay I doubt there'd be much cause for it.

 

[Trivun]

Sorry, had to do that

EDIT: 2000th post, woohoo!

 

[CosmicGrenade]

2: "The First and Fourteenth Amendments protect the speech of American citizens[.] 'H'owever, neither defines what a school can limit in order to provide a teaching environment."

That just makes sense to me. Good luck with the paper.

On the second one I would say
The First and Fourteenth Amendments protect the speech of American citizens. However, neither defines what a school can limit in order to provide a teaching environment.

but thats how I would type it

Originally, the second sentence was two sentences. But my proofreader pointed out that that was a "fragment".

I would say get him fired.
It's just that you are making a point with the However because you can't have
American citizens, however, neither
or
American citizens however, neither
it's got to be
American citizens. However, neither

or change the but from the 1st one to a however and the however from the 2nd one to a but

 

[Ajna]

*snip*

My proofreader is a she... Misogynist.

*snip*

I'd already googled it by the time you posted that. >.<

Also, it's looking like I should remember it as a "Harvard Comma", considering that Oxford is in the UK, and I live in the US.

 

[Ajna]

2000th post, woohoo!

Congrats!

EDIT: 100th post! Ironic, eh?

 

[Trivun]

2000th post, woohoo!

Congrats!

Thanks and thanks for the add!

 

[megalomania]

*snip*

My proofreader is a she... Misogynist.

*snip*

I'd already googled it by the time you posted that. >.<

Also, it's looking like I should remember it as a "Harvard Comma", considering that Oxford is in the UK, and I live in the US.

You should check my post above! Oxford (Harvard if you must) comma is for use in lists, not in normal sentences. You should avoid using comma before a conjunction in normal sentences.

I'm sure google put you right!

 

[ILPPendant]

Also, it's looking like I should remember it as a "Harvard Comma", considering that Oxford is in the UK, and I live in the US.

I'm sure that somewhere in America there's a place called Oxford. I know you have a Cambridge knocking around.

The irony is that Harvard is in Cambridge (MA) - thus you are naming the comma after a place in a place named after a place that uses the opposite grammatical system.

EDIT:

You should check my post above! Oxford (Harvard if you must) comma is for use in lists, not in normal sentences. You should avoid using comma before a conjunction in normal sentences.

I'm sure google put you right!

You know, I have feeling you're right. When I next... encounter my five pound style manual I'll look it up.

 

[Ajna]

*snip*

I'll always check my comma use in any essay that is actually important. That's a guarantee.

Also, it's looking like I should remember it as a "Harvard Comma", considering that Oxford is in the UK, and I live in the US.

I'm sure that somewhere in America there's a place called Oxford. I know you have a Cambridge knocking around.

The irony is that Harvard is in Cambridge (MA) - thus you are naming the comma after a place in a place named after a place that uses the opposite grammatical system.

Considering my congratulation on Trivun's 2000th post was my 100th post, this thread is full of irony. It tastes good.

 

[ILPPendant]

Hmm... I'm more partial to lead myself but whatever does it for you I guess.

 

[HillDragon]

I would say get him fired.
It's just that you are making a point with the However because you can't have
American citizens, however, neither
or
American citizens however, neither
it's got to be
American citizens. However, neither

My proof writer would have suggested:
American citizens, however neither

He also would have said that the comma after the 'however' would be fine because if the nature/evolution of the language.

It's really all up to the person criticizing the work, so all in all, you should ask the person that will be reading it. =)

 

[ILPPendant]

You need a comma after the however because it would otherwise become an adverb and mean something different.

 

[HillDragon]

You need a comma after the however because it would otherwise become an adverb and mean something different.

To which verb would it address and how much could/would it change the meaning?