Hey. I heard you booked this flight legally. GET OFF THE F***ING PLANE!!!!

Nielas

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KissingSunlight said:
Do you seriously believe that businesses don't have a right to tell people to leave their establishments? Have you ever read the sign "We reserve the right to refuse service"? Businesses do have rights. One of those rights is to kick out people who are being detrimental to their business.
While this is true, businesses are also required to follow reasonable procedures when enforcing that right. A store owner cannot just punch me and throw me out of his store on a whim. He has to tell me that I am unwelcome and then give me chance to leave. If I already bought an item in the store, he cannot take it back without my consent.

In this case the security guards acted too early. The guy has made one refusal to leave and was trying to explain his situation to the airline personnel. He might not have been presented with a copy of the rules concerning the situation as the airline is required to do. The plane was on the ground and the guy did not present a threat to anyone. The reasonable option would be to talk to him to make sure that he understood the situation and that refusal could get him in trouble. Turning straight to violence was not a reasonable action by the airline's agents.
 

Parasondox

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KissingSunlight said:
If a cop tells me that and arrest me, I would get his name and badge number. I would contact my lawyer. File a report of false arrest. You know. I would act like a mature adult and follow the law. Even when your rights are being violated. I wouldn't resist arrest, attack the police officer, or do anything else that would help the case of the police officer falsely arresting me.

I would recommend using "a bit of thought" yourself.
I see what you are saying but that scenario you just mentioned, boy, I and others in my area which we could have that experience with law enforcement around here. In an ideal world, your scenario would be perfect, but for many in the real world it does not happen. It's not as simple as you think.

I recommend you research more on police brutality and eye witness accounts on the matter.
 

Erttheking

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KissingSunlight said:
I would recommend using "a bit of thought" yourself.
I know that you're convinced that you're right, but you haven't done a very good job of convincing others that. Maybe you work on that before you pull out an attitude like that.

A business has rules it has to abide by. I've worked at a grocery store for the last six years. We cannot take an item back from a customer after they have already paid for it, nor can we have the police physically assault them if they complain about it. Nor can we kick someone out for poorly established reasons. It's bad for business, and anyone at my store who kicked someone out for a mistake made on his end and called the police to assault a customer would be FIRED! Just because you are physically capable of doing something, doesn't mean you should. United did this, so how is that working out for them? An assload of bad press is how it's working out for them. It was a fucking stupid move to make, and no amount of you pointing out how they had the "right" to do it will change that.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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KissingSunlight said:
The Decapitated Centaur said:
I think it's kind of amazing that some people have obedience so ingrained in them that they expect people to follow orders someone has no right to give just because it's an order.
I find it amazing that people believe that they should do whatever they feel like doing regardless of the rules. "A cop telling me I'm arrested. Fuck HIM! I am just going to ignore him and continue doing whatever I feel like. OMG! I'm now a victim of police brutality."

TechNoFear said:
KissingSunlight said:
You missed the point along with everyone else excusing this guy's behavior.
I think it is you who missed the point..

United ordered 4 people to get off the plane, 3 complied and 1 refused.

Because 1 consumer refused, standing up for their rights under the contract, other consumers are already seeing benefits.

Other airlines are now ensuring this sort of debacle never happens to them. [ie Delta has increased the compensation for overbooking from US$800 to US$2,000, supervisors can offer ~US$10,000].

BTW Your link is incorrect.

United airlines do not have the right to remove you from the plane for any reason they feel like or if they ask you to leave.

Under the contract United Airlines can only remove you from the plane for safety or security reasons (as per the Conditions of Carriage and US DOT regulations).
Do you seriously believe that businesses don't have a right to tell people to leave their establishments? Have you ever read the sign "We reserve the right to refuse service"? Businesses do have rights. One of those rights is to kick out people who are being detrimental to their business.

The Decapitated Centaur said:
Anyways, it shows you lack the ability to recognize bad orders. If a cop tells you "I'm gonna take you to jail because I don't like you" that's not really a lawful order. If someone says "I'm going to take back this thing I sold you and give you 5 dollars as compensation" that's not really something that should be listened to.

Instead of being blindly devoted to 'following orders', a bit of thought might help. Like what kind of rational being starts acting like there's some kind of danger because of flouting this particular order? There isn't. That's easy enough to figure out. That poor moron you quoted is just committing a slippery slope fallacy. There's no rational reason to think refusing an order to be replaced by someone else and being refused the service they accepted money for is going to lead to utter chaos in the air.
If a cop tells me that and arrest me, I would get his name and badge number. I would contact my lawyer. File a report of false arrest. You know. I would act like a mature adult and follow the law. Even when your rights are being violated. I wouldn't resist arrest, attack the police officer, or do anything else that would help the case of the police officer falsely arresting me.

I would recommend using "a bit of thought" yourself.
Please cite the rule that says that he had to get off and comply. I'll wait.

Mature adult. Passive aggressive thread creation. Does not compute.

Also I noticed you failed to actually refute the point that it's a slippery slope argument. I suppose it's too much to expect a 'mature adult' to be able to consider such things
 

KissingSunlight

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The Decapitated Centaur said:
[Please cite the rule that says that he had to get off and comply. I'll wait.

Mature adult. Passive aggressive thread creation. Does not compute.

Also I noticed you failed to actually refute the point that it's a slippery slope argument. I suppose it's too much to expect a 'mature adult' to be able to consider such things
None of you have convinced me or proved that two wrongs make a right.

I'll wait.

No, I won't accept B.S. like "There's no bad tactics. Just bad targets." "Punching Up/Punching Down" "Authorities Always Suck!"

Let's just be honest. People, who are arguing with me about this, feel that people should do whatever the hell they want. Just as long they don't do it to them. That was why that quote I pulled out of the article resonated with me. Change the main cabin to society in general. It has become a clusterfuck of entitled people who believe that rules shouldn't apply to them. Also, people are vigorously arguing that certain people should be allowed to get by doing whatever they feel like. Regardless of the rules and laws that they are breaking.

It's not a passive aggressive thread I started. I was asking an honest question for people who are not for personal accountability. Ironically, I found out that these people have a hard time taking any personal accountability for their position.

Yep, I'm the immature one. Not people who think they should be exempt from following rules and laws.
 

KissingSunlight

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Parasondox said:
KissingSunlight said:
If a cop tells me that and arrest me, I would get his name and badge number. I would contact my lawyer. File a report of false arrest. You know. I would act like a mature adult and follow the law. Even when your rights are being violated. I wouldn't resist arrest, attack the police officer, or do anything else that would help the case of the police officer falsely arresting me.

I would recommend using "a bit of thought" yourself.
I see what you are saying but that scenario you just mentioned, boy, I and others in my area which we could have that experience with law enforcement around here. In an ideal world, your scenario would be perfect, but for many in the real world it does not happen. It's not as simple as you think.

I recommend you research more on police brutality and eye witness accounts on the matter.
The situation that was described to me was a false arrest. Not police brutality. With police brutality, you cannot win in a physical confrontation with the police. What would you suggest someone should do if they were attacked by a police officer that would be different from how I suggested about how to deal with a false arrest?
 

Saelune

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KissingSunlight said:
Yep, I'm the immature one. Not people who think they should be exempt from following rules and laws.
UNITED DID NOT FOLLOW THE RULES!
 

Secondhand Revenant

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KissingSunlight said:
The Decapitated Centaur said:
[Please cite the rule that says that he had to get off and comply. I'll wait.

Mature adult. Passive aggressive thread creation. Does not compute.

Also I noticed you failed to actually refute the point that it's a slippery slope argument. I suppose it's too much to expect a 'mature adult' to be able to consider such things
None of you have convinced me or proved that two wrongs make a right.

I'll wait.

No, I won't accept B.S. like "There's no bad tactics. Just bad targets." "Punching Up/Punching Down" "Authorities Always Suck!"

Let's just be honest. People, who are arguing with me about this, feel that people should do whatever the hell they want. Just as long they don't do it to them. That was why that quote I pulled out of the article resonated with me. Change the main cabin to society in general. It has become a clusterfuck of entitled people who believe that rules shouldn't apply to them. Also, people are vigorously arguing that certain people should be allowed to get by doing whatever they feel like. Regardless of the rules and laws that they are breaking.

It's not a passive aggressive thread I started. I was asking an honest question for people who are not for personal accountability. Ironically, I found out that these people have a hard time taking any personal accountability for their position.

Yep, I'm the immature one. Not people who think they should be exempt from following rules and laws.
Lol, here's the thing, you're trying to say "BUT THE RULES" without actually citing real rules. You're going off your feelings instead. "People are supposed to follow the man in the uniform!"

And see, this is utterly hilarious. "People, who are arguing with me about this, feel that people should do whatever the hell they want." Like seriously? Can this even be a real thought? There's utterly no sense of proportion here. It's this childish "You're either with me or against me!" No, sorry, it's not either abject obeisance or utter anarchy, that a naive view of the world rofl.

So dude, cite the rules and laws that he broke. I'll wait.
 

TechNoFear

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KissingSunlight said:
Yep, I'm the immature one.
Immature is not the word I would have used but if you insist...

KissingSunlight said:
Not people who think they should be exempt from following rules and laws.
I do believe I am exempt from fake, non-existent, non applicable or illegal rules and laws.

I will not follow them just because other people think I should or it will make a scene if I don't.

These are the applicable rules United Airways Contract of Carriage [https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx] and the US Department of Transport regulations [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/part-250].

I suggest you take the time to learn what your rights actually are...
 

KissingSunlight

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BeetleManiac said:
Dude, I'm going to spell this out for you: you're being presumptuous and foolish. You asked a question of a strawman right off the bat, and are now getting shitty with everybody for objecting to your strawman characterization of them. Do you actually believe you're talking to anarchists and toddlers? Do you actually believe yourself morally superior or more mature compared to literally anyone who disagrees with you on this? Did you not think that people would call you out on your arrogance?
This post really summed up what I was talking about people not being accountable for their own position. Your reaction to the question is to attack me and then ask me a litany of questions. If that question doesn't apply to you, then why are you so upset by it? I didn't ask you personally. You are the one who quoted my post and complain about the question. So, I think this question does apply to you. You are simply refusing to admit it.
 

DoPo

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KissingSunlight said:
This post really summed up what I was talking about people not being accountable for their own position.
And yet you continue failing to provide confirmation that United broke no rules. It's almost as if you don't want to be accountable for spreading wrong information.
 

KissingSunlight

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DoPo said:
KissingSunlight said:
This post really summed up what I was talking about people not being accountable for their own position.
And yet you continue failing to provide confirmation that United broke no rules. It's almost as if you don't want to be accountable for spreading wrong information.
I have never said that United was faultless. My point was this guy who refused to leave the plane was being an asshole. I have little sympathy for what happened to him.

My position is two wrongs doesn't make a right. Nobody has proved to me that it's right to act like an asshole when something doesn't go your way.

Keep trying to ignore this point. It's only proving what I have been saying about people refusing to hold individuals personally accountable for their actions.
 

Saelune

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KissingSunlight said:
DoPo said:
KissingSunlight said:
This post really summed up what I was talking about people not being accountable for their own position.
And yet you continue failing to provide confirmation that United broke no rules. It's almost as if you don't want to be accountable for spreading wrong information.
I have never said that United was faultless. My point was this guy who refused to leave the plane was being an asshole. I have little sympathy for what happened to him.

My position is two wrongs doesn't make a right. Nobody has proved to me that it's right to act like an asshole when something doesn't go your way.

Keep trying to ignore this point. It's only proving what I have been saying about people refusing to hold individuals personally accountable for their actions.
How bout 1 wrong doesnt make a right, and a guy who didnt do anything wrong isnt wrong for not doing anything wrong?
 

Drathnoxis

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KissingSunlight said:
DoPo said:
KissingSunlight said:
This post really summed up what I was talking about people not being accountable for their own position.
And yet you continue failing to provide confirmation that United broke no rules. It's almost as if you don't want to be accountable for spreading wrong information.
I have never said that United was faultless. My point was this guy who refused to leave the plane was being an asshole. I have little sympathy for what happened to him.

My position is two wrongs doesn't make a right. Nobody has proved to me that it's right to act like an asshole when something doesn't go your way.

Keep trying to ignore this point. It's only proving what I have been saying about people refusing to hold individuals personally accountable for their actions.
There are several ways of looking at what is 'right'. There is 'right' as in morally right and there is 'right' as in the the most practical.

First, a look at morality. As morality is extremely malleable, and varies from person to person and culture to culture, it's impossible to nail down to one solitary 'right'. However, if you look at it from the perspective that the laws are just and apply to everybody equally, then it is each of our responsibility to ensure that they are upheld. By standing up for his own rights, Dr. Dao not only defends himself, but makes a point for everybody who does not want to be forcibly removed from their seat on a plane. You can guarantee that the next time an airline wants to throw their weight around and kick people out of a seat they purchased without cause they are going to think twice. By making an example of himself, he protects everyone. Thus, from that perspective his actions are morally right.

Now, for practicality. He does not want to give up his seat and miss the flight. Passively acquiescing to United's demands that he do is not going to accomplish this goal. Kicking up a fuss is a better course of actions, because there was a good chance that the attendants would simply find a less belligerent target too bully off the plane, or find another solution to their seating problem. Of course, this didn't happen, however, by being dragged out of his rightfully purchased seat, and being injured in the process, he is very likely to receive a massive payout for damages from United and be financially set for the rest of his life. If becoming incredibly rich wasn't the 'right' course of action, I don't know what would be.

So there, both morally and practically Dr. Dao was in the right to act as he did.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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KissingSunlight said:
DoPo said:
KissingSunlight said:
This post really summed up what I was talking about people not being accountable for their own position.
And yet you continue failing to provide confirmation that United broke no rules. It's almost as if you don't want to be accountable for spreading wrong information.
I have never said that United was faultless. My point was this guy who refused to leave the plane was being an asshole. I have little sympathy for what happened to him.

My position is two wrongs doesn't make a right. Nobody has proved to me that it's right to act like an asshole when something doesn't go your way.

Keep trying to ignore this point. It's only proving what I have been saying about people refusing to hold individuals personally accountable for their actions.
Well it does help when your position is to scream that he broke rules and fail to back it up, ignoring any request to cite which rule. Really the case makes itself here.

You're hiding behind 'rules' when all it is is how you feel about the situation. At least be honest
 

Elijin

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At this point, since its clear the train has left the station and no one cares about anything other than shitting on United...

I hope United sues the Chicago Police department. Sure, United made an unpopular decision about refusing service at a really late date, but the Chicago police are the ones who took this up to 11 with the excessive force and negligence. The fact that United and United alone is eating this is utter horseshit. They're not even the employers of the people that really need to be punished here. But everyone hates airlines, so zzzzzz.
 

DoPo

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KissingSunlight said:
DoPo said:
KissingSunlight said:
This post really summed up what I was talking about people not being accountable for their own position.
And yet you continue failing to provide confirmation that United broke no rules. It's almost as if you don't want to be accountable for spreading wrong information.
I have never said that United was faultless.
There we go - refusing to own up again. Never saying United was faultless is very technically correct, aside from the fact that it sort of bypasses you saying, and I quote

KissingSunlight said:
...And you keep backing the criminals.
Implying the passenger was breaking the law when he was not.

KissingSunlight said:
Do you seriously believe that businesses don't have a right to tell people to leave their establishments? Have you ever read the sign "We reserve the right to refuse service"? Businesses do have rights. One of those rights is to kick out people who are being detrimental to their business.
Outright saying United had the full rights to remove the passenger.

We are still waiting to prove that. Again, are you refusing to own up?