HHS Reverses Transgender Health Protections

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Wasn't that a medical based rule? I'm fairly certain the reasoning was that trans people who are transitioning or require some kind of medication cannot join the military... just like anyone else that would be a detriment to a military organization if they were unable to fulfill their job if cut off from medication or constant medical treatment.
No, they claimed it was but the military had already done studies on trans solders, trump just pulled this out of his ass since he probably wanted to discriminate against someone.
 

Silvanus

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I'd argue that neither the former law nor the this new version are good. The law is too vague as to what is considered discrimination. With it like this new version we have the issue of trans people being denied services while with the old version we get things like the Yaniv incident from last year (Yes I know it was in a Canada, the point still stands). I'd also argue that until an actual set of criteria for what makes someone transgender and thus what is considered discrimination towards them is set that isn't "I am this gender because I say so" that we won't be able to make a good law for this kind of situation.
What's the issue with simply disallowing discrimination based on gender identity?

In Jessica Yaniv's case, the sticking point was related to specific body parts. There's no reason for a rule on gender identity to lose validity there.
 

Tireseas

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Okay I am deeply confused as to what this means. I read the article and...I still don't know. Like i get it means they can discriminate, but again the article doesn't say what that means.
Long and short of it is that Trans individuals can essentially be refused healthcare, including essential and regular services. To give you an idea of the potential consequences, a trans man (assigned female at birth and later transitioned to male) was intentionally not told of his lethal breast cancer diagnosis by his doctor. That's a extreme but real consequence of not having the protection.
It says "scenarios include a transgender man being denied treatment for ovarian cancer"
Okay so either this means a biologically born man who has transition to a woman can't get ovarian cancer treatment...which they don't have ovaries, so...
Or it means a woman who has transitioned to a man now has ovarian cancer. but the ruling states he isn't a he, he is a she, she is a biological born woman. So...the insurance company would simply file her forms as if she was a she and...and what? If this article is accurate they'll still get the treatment and coverage, just the pronouns on the paperwork is wrong, or they'll be denied treatment for illness they can't physically have.

Im sure there is more to this but the article doesn't really say
1) He's still a man, he just has ovaries.

2) your gender is a semi-legal status, set by birth certificates issued by the state. Many trans people get their birth certificates updated with their actual gender as part of transitioning depending on costs and ease of doing so (many states have onerous regulations to changing birth markers and, as many of my friends have noted, "poverty is trans culture" as most experience cultural and economic discrimination on a day-to-day basis).

Additionally, outside of the sex organs, most trans people who are able to get hormone replacement therapy match their cis-normative counterparts in terms of their physical attributes, particularly musculoskeletal, cardiovascular, and neurological aspects. A trans woman is for the most part, a woman, and a trans man, is for the most part a man. And this isn't counting gender affirming surgery, which has advanced dramatically in the last few decades. Depending on when the medical transition occurred and the nature of the treatments, an outside observer may see no distinguishing characteristics between a trans person and a cis person of the same gender.

3) By relabeling a person to a gender they are not, they are denying that person's fundamental identity, not to mention causing irregularities in the insurance records, which can cause delays and denied claims. This is a serious violation of that individuals moral rights to self-actualization, and, in most legal interpretations of discrimination on the basis of sex, pending an active case in front of the supreme court right now [EDIT: notably employment discrimination], considered a violation of the civil rights act.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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What's the issue with simply disallowing discrimination based on gender identity?

In Jessica Yaniv's case, the sticking point was related to specific body parts. There's no reason for a rule on gender identity to lose validity there.
The issue is what do we consider discrimination and who do we consider trans?
 

Buyetyen

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The issue is what do we consider discrimination and who do we consider trans?
For the sake of argument, I would define unethical discrimination under the law as the denial of goods or services for a reason implicit to the person being denied that is irrelevant to the service in question. For example, denying a black person a seat at a restaurant because they are black. The color of their skin is intrinsic to the customer, yes. But it also has absolutely nothing to do with them being hungry or the restaurant's ability to take, prepare and serve their order. Denying housing to someone because they're gay would be unethical because one's sexual orientation has no causal connection whatsoever to how good a neighbor you are or how punctual you are with the rent.
 

Silvanus

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The issue is what do we consider discrimination and who do we consider trans?
What we consider discrimination is already covered in other areas of law. In short it comes down to unequal or unfair treatment based on certain characteristics. But this isn't under review in the current debate, and it's been codified long ago in the US.

Who we consider trans is not relevant to this specific ACA question. To illustrate what I mean: the ACA says one may not discriminate on the basis of race; but there's no need to define what specific races are in the ACA. If the discrimination is based on race in any form, then it's unlawful.

And so, the expansion of this protection acted in the same way: one may not discriminate on the basis of gender identity; there's no need to define specific groups within that. If the discrimination is based on gender identity in any form, then it's unlawful.
 
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Silvanus

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Didn't we all agree Yaniv is a racist pedo who has taken the Trans identity as a shield to hide his actions behind?
Well, I'd hesitate to assume anything about Yaniv's gender identity being other than what Yaniv has said. We don't know.

But her actions in that specific case (making the booking under a false name, for instance) suggest bad faith in that regard. It doesn't look like she was acting honestly regardless of her identity.
 

SilentPony

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Well, I'd hesitate to assume anything about Yaniv's gender identity being other than what Yaniv has said. We don't know.

But her actions in that specific case (making the booking under a false name, for instance) suggest bad faith in that regard. It doesn't look like she was acting honestly regardless of her identity.
But wasn't part of it she/he had a history of targeting minority owned shops and suing them? I swear I remember reading there was a racial aspect to the people she/he targeted.
 

Trunkage

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I love the fact that this was done during Pride Month, and Trump also tries to hold a racism rally during Juneteenth, in a location that is heavily laden with racial history and tension.

I mean, the level of disconnect on the category of "hmm, I wonder how this will be perceived" is staggering.
But he’s the friend of blacks and gays

You can’t prove otherwise
 

Trunkage

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The issue is what do we consider discrimination and who do we consider trans?
The other issue is that these definition change over time. Our understanding of trans has changed over the last 2 decades. Also, new forms of discrimination pop up as creative people find new ways to discriminate

BUT, that means things are clear cut. Listening to Leonardo French over the years, I’m realising a LOT of laws are like this and specifically designed to do so. I have theories why, but nothing I’d say as definitive.

Lastly, things like Civil Rights are actually quite draconian. BUT I don’t know how you solve this issue without those measures. Jim Crowe and segregation shows you what happens if you give thosetypes of people an inch
 

happyninja42

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But he’s the friend of blacks and gays

You can’t prove otherwise
Actually I think that IS something you could prove. See if you can find a single black person or LGBTQ who considers him a friend. :p If not, boom, proof.
 

Specter Von Baren

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For the sake of argument, I would define unethical discrimination under the law as the denial of goods or services for a reason implicit to the person being denied that is irrelevant to the service in question. For example, denying a black person a seat at a restaurant because they are black. The color of their skin is intrinsic to the customer, yes. But it also has absolutely nothing to do with them being hungry or the restaurant's ability to take, prepare and serve their order. Denying housing to someone because they're gay would be unethical because one's sexual orientation has no causal connection whatsoever to how good a neighbor you are or how punctual you are with the rent.
A good definition I'd say.

What we consider discrimination is already covered in other areas of law. In short it comes down to unequal or unfair treatment based on certain characteristics. But this isn't under review in the current debate, and it's been codified long ago in the US.
Nowadays it seems anything can be called discrimination regardless of what the law actually says so I would like to know what your definition is. State your terms so I know we're on the same page.

Who we consider trans is not relevant to this specific ACA question. To illustrate what I mean: the ACA says one may not discriminate on the basis of race; but there's no need to define what specific races are in the ACA. If the discrimination is based on race in any form, then it's unlawful.

And so, the expansion of this protection acted in the same way: one may not discriminate on the basis of gender identity; there's no need to define specific groups within that. If the discrimination is based on gender identity in any form, then it's unlawful.
My issue is not with the basic care that a trans person has a right to receive. My issue is with the specific details of them not actually being the sex they say they are because science has still not reached the point where we can actually change someone into a man or woman, we can only make them look like a man or woman and apply various drugs and hormones to influence their body, but their internal organs are still not changed. It is these internal organs and these unchangeable aspects that make me feel the previous law is not defined well enough because a doctor may need to treat a trans person as a male because various aspects of their body that are still male even after going through transitioning and someone calling that discrimination.

It does not mean that I think this new law is good. It's not. No one should be able to be denied required medical services just because they are trans. But not all services are fundamental and not all services treat men and women the same and trans people will end up being treated for their actual sex and not the one they want others to treat them as, which will inevitably lead to someone decrying something as discriminatory.

My other issue is with how weak the current definition of trans is outside of gender dysphoria and what keeps anyone from saying they are trans and using it as a way to do illicit things like in the Yaniv case.

Didn't we all agree Yaniv is a racist pedo who has taken the Trans identity as a shield to hide his actions behind?
Not Saelune, but they seemed to refuse to accept it because they saw any negative representative of transsexuals to just be an attack on themselves.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Not Saelune, but they seemed to refuse to accept it because they saw any negative representative of transsexuals to just be an attack on themselves.
Don't bring up another user who isn't able to defend herself.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Ok? I don't see how just bringing them up means they would need to defend themselves when I'm not attacking them, but ok.
Because I think you are misrepresenting her and since shes not here to confirm her position, its bad form to call her out.
 

Terminal Blue

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Not Saelune, but they seemed to refuse to accept it because they saw any negative representative of transsexuals to just be an attack on themselves.
If I remember, you're referring to a discussion about right wing youtuber Blair White, who made videos calling out Yaniv. These videos were brought up as a defence of Blair White's character in response to criticism of her politics. The implication was that, whatever those politics, Blair White was ultimately doing a good thing by exposing a horrible paedophile.

Saelune and I argued that, in the context of Blair white's openly transphobic views and habit of singling out and targeting trans people online, it was very obvious that her interest in Yaniv was entirely due to the fact Yaniv was trans, and to vindicate the preexisting belief of her audience that trans people are all dangerous perverts. We also pointed out the clearly political framing, despite the fact that White and Yaniv seemed to share a great deal in common politically.

The irony of accusing Saelune of not being able to handle "negative representatives" of trans people is that Blair White is trans. We were literally calling out an awful, toxic (and, yes, deeply deeply racist) example of a trans person in that thread, and your takeaway from that is that Saelune can't handle any criticism of trans people..

What the fuck.

My issue is with the specific details of them not actually being the sex they say they are because science has still not reached the point where we can actually change someone into a man or woman, we can only make them look like a man or woman and apply various drugs and hormones to influence their body, but their internal organs are still not changed.
A word of advice.

If you have not received any kind of scientific or medical education in this field, and if you are not familiar with the rudimentary basics of what the scientific consensus actually is and, crucially, if you don't understand what words like sex mean, you should probably keep quiet rather than saying stuff like this.

Morphological sex, which is the thing we colloquially call sex, is produced entirely by sex hormones. Using sex hormones and surgery to change the physical appearance of the body is already changing someone's sex. It's not perfect by any means, but sex determination is an imperfect process to begin with.

It is these internal organs and these unchangeable aspects that make me feel the previous law is not defined well enough because a doctor may need to treat a trans person as a male because various aspects of their body that are still male even after going through transitioning and someone calling that discrimination.
The same law prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex, and yet doctors have no issues refusing to prescribe birth control pills to cis men.

The vast majority of transgender people have experienced discrimination at the hands of healthcare providers, such as being deliberately misgendered or misnamed. One in five have been denied care at some point, including lifesaving care, because a medical professional refuses to treat them. If you want to see how bad it can get, look up how Tyra Hunter died and remember that no individual was even disciplined for that. That's why gender identity was added to the list of protected categories, because there is a demonstrable and urgent need for protections for trans people seeking to access essential public services.

I don't think it's relevant that you don't know what gender identity is, or how the law defines discrimination. That's kind of your problem.
 
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Agema

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Very well, would you like me to remove my comment then?
No, it's okay. Your shame should remain in plain view for everyone to judge you harshly on for eternity ;)

I think we can all accept it as done, acknowledged, and move on constructively.