Hidden Blade Mechanics

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Atheist.

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Sep 12, 2008
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omega 616 said:
Atheist. said:
Tears of Blood said:
shewolf51 said:
Also, very inventive! It certainly looks like it goes well with the mechanics in the diagram
Leonardo Da Vinci, eat your heart out. xP

Really, though, I could probably think of something better if I had a few days to ponder.

Atheist. said:
If you're in to rationalizing video games, can you please give me instructions on making my own BFG, Portal Gun, Bio Gun, Plasma Rifle, and one of those Teleporting guns from UT? Plus, I'd like to know how all these damn animals can talk, and how people can jump multiple times their height in a plumbing uniform.
Oh geez. Don't be a jerk. The hidden blade is not comparable to any of those things. You're talking about things that are clearly impossible, compared to something that is totally plausible.

Seriously, don't be a prick.
Being a prick, and being a realist are two completely different things. I only used extreme examples to prove a very simple point: It's a game. This object can be rationalized in numerous ways, none more true than the next (Within reason.) If he seriously can't conceive a way for this contraption to work, he shouldn't be playing an M rated game. Ultimately though, it doesn't need to be rationalized. Why? Because it's a damn video game.

Oh, and thanks for the welcome. Auf Weidersehen.
Plasma is just superheated gas, so paint-ball gun mixed with a (really hot) flamethrower could make a plasma rifle, you would need asbestos gloves to hold the thing though.
You failed to mention that Hydrogen doesn't turn into plasma until ~ 10^12 K (Par have sufficient density, such as that of the sun which has plasma at ~ 10^7 K.) Also, the only currently plausible way to contain plasma would be a magnetic field of incredible strengths. But at least you tried.
 

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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Atheist. said:
You failed to mention that Hydrogen doesn't turn into plasma until ~ 10^12 K (Par have sufficient density, such as that of the sun which has plasma at ~ 10^7 K.) Also, the only currently plausible way to contain plasma would be a magnetic field of incredible strengths. But at least you tried.
Erm ... there already using plasma in a microwave sized machine to coat things in plasma to make them waterproof.

They put a mobile (or cell) phone in this machine switched it on and a few minutes later they put the phone in a glass of water and called it, it rang away like normal.

I am sure if they can coat a phone in plasma they can fire it at people, would be really expensive and a waste of time since lead works just fine.
 

Atheist.

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Sep 12, 2008
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omega 616 said:
Atheist. said:
You failed to mention that Hydrogen doesn't turn into plasma until ~ 10^12 K (Par have sufficient density, such as that of the sun which has plasma at ~ 10^7 K.) Also, the only currently plausible way to contain plasma would be a magnetic field of incredible strengths. But at least you tried.
Erm ... there already using plasma in a microwave sized machine to coat things in plasma to make them waterproof.

They put a mobile (or cell) phone in this machine switched it on and a few minutes later they put the phone in a glass of water and called it, it rang away like normal.

I am sure if they can coat a phone in plasma they can fire it at people, would be really expensive and a waste of time since lead works just fine.
Yeah, there are others materials that are plasmas at different STP, but most of them are harmless to humans. But I see your point, perhaps there's a substance optimized for a plasma rifle on Earth.
 

omega 616

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May 1, 2009
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Atheist. said:
omega 616 said:
Atheist. said:
You failed to mention that Hydrogen doesn't turn into plasma until ~ 10^12 K (Par have sufficient density, such as that of the sun which has plasma at ~ 10^7 K.) Also, the only currently plausible way to contain plasma would be a magnetic field of incredible strengths. But at least you tried.
Erm ... there already using plasma in a microwave sized machine to coat things in plasma to make them waterproof.

They put a mobile (or cell) phone in this machine switched it on and a few minutes later they put the phone in a glass of water and called it, it rang away like normal.

I am sure if they can coat a phone in plasma they can fire it at people, would be really expensive and a waste of time since lead works just fine.
Yeah, there are others materials that are plasmas at different STP, but most of them are harmless to humans. But I see your point, perhaps there's a substance optimized for a plasma rifle on Earth.
At 10,000 degrees Celsius I don't think it's a matter of if its harmless 'cos at that
temperature ,I am pretty certain, it would go right through the target and maybe a few more behind them, then leave a serious scorch mark on the wall.
 

Loop Stricken

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Jun 17, 2009
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lax4life said:
Guys, Altair did not have his ring finger chopped off because of the hidden blade. It was lopped off as a sign of fealty to the assassin clan. Which is why Ezio has all his fingers, he was never formally turned into a member of the assassin's order. (plus it amkes altair look like a badass)
No.

Altaïr decided that the finger-chopping rule was stupid and abolished it. Assassins hence were, I believe, branded on that finger instead of having it removed completely.
 

LeonLethality

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Mar 10, 2009
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in AC1 I loved using the hidden blade for combat since for me the combat was nothing but counterattack after counterattack then the main point of the game fore me: fleeing
 

Escapefromwhatever

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LeonHellsvite said:
in AC1 I loved using the hidden blade for combat since for me the combat was nothing but counterattack after counterattack then the main point of the game fore me: fleeing
Did you, uh, you know, read the first post?
 

ShadowsofHope

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Nov 1, 2009
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lax4life said:
Guys, Altair did not have his ring finger chopped off because of the hidden blade. It was lopped off as a sign of fealty to the assassin clan. Which is why Ezio has all his fingers, he was never formally turned into a member of the assassin's order. (plus it amkes altair look like a badass)
Actually, he did. The entire point was that the older mechanism was only viable if the finger was missing, as it provided a gap in which the blade could make a swift and unhampered exit for assassinations in quickly proceeding events, as well as a sign of loyalty to the assassins order.

Also, you are wrong about the Ezio thing as well. da Vinci clearly states in the game to him that the newer mechanism was constructed in a manner so you did not have to sacrifice a finger in order to use it, but simply know how it works and deploy it when needed. Although yes, he never really does get initiated into the Assassins order.. until later in the game, when he finally accepts his fathers work.

..Anyways, yes. It is just a game, but we're also thinkers, as well as gamers. We like to rationalize things to some extent, even if in a video game. I agree with Tears of Blood, a hidden blade is actually a realistic device someone could build in modern day if they had the skill and time. A portal gun.. come on, really? There is a huge difference between extreme, and possible.

Oh, and welcome.
 

InsertWittyName

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Jun 25, 2009
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itsAgirLpire said:
Magic
*sparkle sparkle* :D
no, imagination! (spongebob)
OT they both use the gauntlet ring mechanism, altair just chopped off his ring finger to show dedication to the creed (Da Vinci says this when he gives you the hidden blades.)
 

Godhead

Dib dib dib, dob dob dob.
May 25, 2009
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ShadowsofHope said:
lax4life said:
Guys, Altair did not have his ring finger chopped off because of the hidden blade. It was lopped off as a sign of fealty to the assassin clan. Which is why Ezio has all his fingers, he was never formally turned into a member of the assassin's order. (plus it amkes altair look like a badass)
Actually, he did. The entire point was that the older mechanism was only viable if the finger was missing, as it provided a gap in which the blade could make a swift and unhampered exit for assassinations in quickly proceeding events, as well as a sign of loyalty to the assassins order.

Also, you are wrong about the Ezio thing as well. da Vinci clearly states in the game to him that the newer mechanism was constructed in a manner so you did not have to sacrifice a finger in order to use it, but simply know how it works and deploy it when needed. Although yes, he never really does get initiated into the Assassins order.. until later in the game, when he finally accepts his fathers work.

..Anyways, yes. It is just a game, but we're also thinkers, as well as gamers. We like to rationalize things to some extent, even if in a video game. I agree with Tears of Blood, a hidden blade is actually a realistic device someone could build in modern day if they had the skill and time. A portal gun.. come on, really? There is a huge difference between extreme, and possible.

Oh, and welcome.
meh, i didnt do any research i just said what i knew so it doesnt surprise me that my argument had flaws in it.
 

Evil Tim

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Apr 18, 2009
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Atheist. said:
Yeah, there are others materials that are plasmas at different STP, but most of them are harmless to humans. But I see your point, perhaps there's a substance optimized for a plasma rifle on Earth.
The actual problem with making one would be the lack of coherency in the projectile since nothing's holding it together after it leaves the gun, along with the tendency for it to rise in atmosphere due to its heat. Imagine a 'really hot steam gun' and you've got a realistic plasma rifle. The only way to avoid that would be to accelerate the projectile enormously, and then what you have would really be a particle cannon, not the sci-fi slow-moving plasma bolt gun.

On topic:

http://thedarkblade.com/phyreblades-guide-to-altairs-retractable-blade-assassins-creed/
http://thedarkblade.com/assassins-creed-revisited/
 

Atheist.

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Sep 12, 2008
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Evil Tim said:
Atheist. said:
Yeah, there are others materials that are plasmas at different STP, but most of them are harmless to humans. But I see your point, perhaps there's a substance optimized for a plasma rifle on Earth.
The actual problem with making one would be the lack of coherency in the projectile since nothing's holding it together after it leaves the gun, along with the tendency for it to rise in atmosphere due to its heat. Imagine a 'really hot steam gun' and you've got a realistic plasma rifle. The only way to avoid that would be to accelerate the projectile enormously, and then what you have would really be a particle cannon, not the sci-fi slow-moving plasma bolt gun.

On topic:

http://thedarkblade.com/phyreblades-guide-to-altairs-retractable-blade-assassins-creed/
http://thedarkblade.com/assassins-creed-revisited/
You could either give it an incredibly high velocity, or use magnetic fields to hold it together and be released on impact.
 

Evil Tim

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Apr 18, 2009
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Atheist. said:
You could either give it an incredibly high velocity, or use magnetic fields to hold it together and be released on impact.
Just to quote a nice writeup on the subject [http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/PlasmaWeapons.html] from Stardestroyer.net:

OK, why don't we try solving this problem by using a much lower-energy plasma with increased density? We could try to solve the buoyancy problem by making it colder (say, 1 eV, or 8000K, which is a bit hotter than the surface of the Sun), thus necessitating a thousand times more ions in the same volume, but its density would still be much too low to push it through the atmosphere on momentum alone. It wouldn't necessarily float up, but try throwing a balloon at someone and you can see how well an object with atmospheric density would fly if hurled at the target.

No, if you want it to push its way through atmosphere on momentum, it must be either much denser than air or moving at extreme velocity, which sci-fi plasma weapons generally do not (and which would make it more of a particle beam than a traditional sci-fi "plasma weapon"). So what if we decrease the volume to make it as dense as a solid projectile? Well, that takes care of the "can't push its way through atmosphere" problem, but now you have to make it tiny, and in order to do that, you need to squeeze it with immense pressure. If we squeeze our 1MJ plasmoid into a 1cc volume and apply the ideal gas law (which is a good model for plasmas), we find that the pressure is in the range of 700 GPa! When you consider the fact that this is a thousand times greater than the yield strength of high-grade steel, you can begin to see the problem.

How many problems arise when you need a containment field a thousand times stronger than steel just to hold your plasmoid together? Some questions leap to mind, such as "if they can create such a strong containment field which somehow supports itself and doesn't even need a projector device, then why can't they make personal shields as strong or even stronger?" One would also have to ask why it doesn't glow like the Sun, since it would be hotter than the Sun's photosphere and denser than steel. And finally, one would have to ask what the point is of this whole speculation, since our plasma "bullet" is now denser than aluminum and should act like a real bullet now, which means it should drop in gravity. While that may not be an insurmountable hurdle for a hypothetical sci-fi weapon, it certainly doesn't match the sci-fi weapons we know, which do not arc noticeably in gravity.

In conclusion, the idea of a slowly moving self-contained plasmoid weapon simply doesn't make any sense. Your "bolt" is constantly trying to blow itself apart on the way to the target, you must invent some kind of ridiculously strong yet easy-to-run containment field to make it hold together (thus raising obvious questions about why this super containment technology is not used to effortlessly protect against these bolts), and when it finally does hit the target and the mythical "containment field" shatters, the barely-contained ions within will promptly scatter in all directions, thus wasting the majority of their energy by dissipating harmlessly into space. Even those ions that do strike the surface of the target will achieve poor penetration; most of their kinetic energy is randomized rather than being directed forward, and the gas cloud lacks the characteristics which would allow it to push through solid armour rather than simply heating its surface. And after all that, the plasmoid won't move in a straight line the way they're invariably shown in sci-fi; it should arc downward in gravity.
 

eTe

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Nov 29, 2009
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Assassins Creed. Love this series.

The hidden blade is something I have spent a lot of time pondering on, and drawing lots of sketches of.
I believe it to be very possible, and after redaing through the topic a ring that hooks onto your little finger is a perfect trigger.
I always toyed with the idea of numerous pulleys and a switch to alter direction, but after watching Watchmen I am decided that gears would be the best option.
The weakest aspect of the blade would be slashing movements, where it would take sideways force, but still very very strong thanks to modern day metals, like high-speed steel and tungsten (used in drop saws). Downside is cost. To forge and or CNC the parts would expensive as they would all be unique.

The extending action inside the blade would be very complicated, and the simplest way is still very complicated.
Involving gearing the range of the trigger movement up about 5 times, and turning 3 pulleys simultaneously which turn 3 gears inside the blades, which run along a toothed edge inside the blades themselves.
Because the length of the pulleys change, they can't be loops, and must be open strings fed from a roll kept tight from a spring.

To retract it, the trigger mechanism simply reverses via a switch. The gear connected to the trigger also needs to unlock a ratchet-tye mechanism that holds the blade out when extended. To achieve this, it can be activated at the beginning of the pull so it will not affect the mechanism while opening.

The need for numerous springmounted rolls of string is evident in this design, and unless the bladed were forged/CNC'd open and then close, I don't know how they could be made.

Edit: The upside to this assembly is that it can be very compact, meaning that it would not catch on objects.
It would also be very easy to fit a metal plate like the game version to protect against damage.
More exciting, all this tech (except the improved metals) were available back then.
 

Deleric

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Dec 29, 2008
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I assumed it had something to do with the muscle motions triggered by the finger they, you know, cut off.
 

eTe

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Nov 29, 2009
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While that would be cool, it's to complicated. The more complex a mechanism is, the more chance of failing. Also during Altäirs Regina, he changed the design so they did not need to remove the finger.

Mechanically, this is not plausible.

Edit: The finger muscle flex, that is.
 

CargoHold

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Sep 16, 2009
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Atheist. said:
You failed to mention that Hydrogen doesn't turn into plasma until ~ 10^12 K (Par have sufficient density, such as that of the sun which has plasma at ~ 10^7 K.) Also, the only currently plausible way to contain plasma would be a magnetic field of incredible strengths. But at least you tried.
Atheist. said:
Yeah, there are others materials that are plasmas at different STP, but most of them are harmless to humans. But I see your point, perhaps there's a substance optimized for a plasma rifle on Earth.
Atheist. said:
Being a prick, and being a realist are two completely different things. I only used extreme examples to prove a very simple point: It's a game. This object can be rationalized in numerous ways, none more true than the next (Within reason.) If he seriously can't conceieve a way for this contraption to work, he shouldn't be playing an M rated game. Ultimately though, it doesn't need to be rationalized. Why? Because it's a damn video game.

And with that off my chest, nice thread- I'd always assumed that it was some simple jerk-lock mechanism, because Altair/Ezio usually splay their fingers and jerk their arm in the direction of the blade slightly. I feel like I've learnt something.
Now to make my own.
 

AdamG3691

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Nov 18, 2009
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if you want to be really nitpicky, you could say that CRT monitors are plasma rifles, plasma is a gas that has been heated so much that its electrons are removed from their atoms, monitors use this to make the picture, just not enough to kill someone like a plasma rifle.

the animals could be aliens.

10X jumping, lower gravity