How could Disney redeem itself from The Last Jedi?

Arnoxthe1

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LostGryphon said:
If expecting a basic level of coherence in a story is akin to "putting something on a pedestal" then, sure. Especially since it's been 40 years and they've actually got a firm bedrock to work on now in terms of both lore and an established fanbase.

But hey. Sorry my bar is a little bit higher than yours?

Now, were the ewoks silly? Yes. Did it make sense in the context of the movie? I'd say yes.

Was Holdo's subplot silly? Yes. Did it make sense in the context of the movie? No.

Why are you lot so quick to excuse this film's blatant narrative/lore failures? I mean, fuck, my 11-year-old niece picked out the big ones immediately.

If it were anything but Star Wars, would it be getting this much in the way of defense (or, to be fair, hostility)? I highly fuckin doubt it.
No, I don't think the ewoks made sense even in context (As much as I don't care for them, why didn't they just have wookies?), but hey, I'm not here to slam Ep. 4-6. And also, I know that TLJ had problems. No argument from me there. The throne room scene for example was particularly egregious. But comparing it to all the main entry Star Wars movies we've had thus, I think it's pretty darn good. It's no KotOR 2 but it's definitely something. And I say all this as a very critical movie-goer. Trust me on that one.
 

GalanDun

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Well, first off they could pull a reverse Superman II and get George Lucas or J.J. Abrams to re-shoot and re-cut Episode VIII so it doesn't suck. I expect the Ron Howard and Abrams-led Star Wars films to be good, but a lot of it has to do with pulling in EU stuff and acknowledging that they're adapting it instead of just stealing from it.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Izanagi009 said:
First, On topic as to why people like this movie. Because the old narratives of Star Wars, the classic monomyth and hero's journey, is getting repetitive.
Roight... and ending the film with a Bad Guy wielding a red saber wanting to kill people, against a Good Guy Gal with a blue saber fighting with the rebels is so radically new?

I loved the idea of Luke and Ren ostensibly rejecting Light and Dark as one, just from different perspectives. But even Luke can't commit to that idea, just like the damn film itself can't (as Rich Evans quips; the twist is that there is no twist... Ren slays Snoke, offers Rey a team-up to dismantle the old guard, and then thinks, 'fuck it, I'll just be the Big Bad, then').

Having Kylo be a force that seeks destruction of the old is more compelling than the idea of a galactic empire fighting rebellion plot.
Except that's ostensibly exactly what we have at the end. Some characters are dead, but no one's really learnt anything, and it's the same-old same-old from '77. Baddies vs goodies Because Reasons.
Fair enough, that is a valid complaint about the movie, it not committing fully to the idea is something that can be brought up.

Zontar said:
1: bad story how? I've seen a lot of critique about Star Wars, from the idea that it doesn't fully stick the landing of the deconstruction to the idea that the casino planet subplot undermines the plot. I'm not sure I've seen much from you other than "destroys the old meta"

2. How do you know they aren't part of the community? have you done tests or is this an assumption. also, the fact you use the term "feminids" is a dehumanization tactic and frankly one that i find makes it seem like you are desperate to discredit them.

3. "Insults fans?", you still haven't told me what is the qualification of a "fan" because i doubt that it's a consensus what fans of Star Wars think. Some want the new story meta and ideas, other don't. The fact that there is this discussion is proof enough.

4. I will concede on the political point though I ask why you think that people liking the film equals not liking left or right leaning ideologies.

5. The fact that people dislike something is sometimes irrelevant to determining the quality of a film. Best Example: people didn't like Blade Runner's initial run but as time went on, it grew a reputation as one of the best Cyberpunk films.
 

COMaestro

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Disney has nothing to redeem here. I thought The Last Jedi was great, certainly better than the prequels and better than The Force Awakens. Yes, it had it's problems, but so do all the films.
 

Zontar

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Izanagi009 said:
1: bad story how? I've seen a lot of critique about Star Wars, from the idea that it doesn't fully stick the landing of the deconstruction to the idea that the casino planet subplot undermines the plot. I'm not sure I've seen much from you other than "destroys the old meta"
I'm not linking to videos already posted in this thread or repeating things I and others have already said.
2. How do you know they aren't part of the community? have you done tests or is this an assumption. also, the fact you use the term "feminids" is a dehumanization tactic and frankly one that i find makes it seem like you are desperate to discredit them.
You mean apart from the fact that we know SJWs don't buy shit and sales of material that panders to them dispels any myth that they do? I don't know, how about the active hostility to the community and open hatred for one of the three elements that makes up a wargaming franchise? Because it's a little hard to be part of a community while openly hating that community and openly mocking the very idea of an entire third of what makes up the foundation of that community.
3. "Insults fans?", you still haven't told me what is the qualification of a "fan" because i doubt that it's a consensus what fans of Star Wars think. Some want the new story meta and ideas, other don't. The fact that there is this discussion is proof enough.
I'm not going to even pretend you don't know what a fan is and get straight to the meat of it; fans are not discussing anything outside of what went wrong. People who didn't like Star Wars but somehow liked the trash we got with TLJ are discussing it.
4. I will concede on the political point though I ask why you think that people liking the film equals not liking left or right leaning ideologies.
It doesn't, it's just that the type of people who hate both conservatism and liberalism are the same who seem to be enjoying the movie. Probably because it tries to pander to their illiberal sensibilities (I say try but despite being a genuinely misogynistic movie it somehow worked at that despite the fact that rationally it should have offended them more then it even managed to offend fans)
5. The fact that people dislike something is sometimes irrelevant to determining the quality of a film. Best Example: people didn't like Blade Runner's initial run but as time went on, it grew a reputation as one of the best Cyberpunk films.
Wrong, critics didn't like Blade Runner's initial release. Nerds loved it, even though the director's cut was better and enjoyed even more (and rightfully so). I know you're hoping to play the "well people have come around to the prequels" card, but the problem with that is that the prequels where a great story undercut by a horrible execution. TLJ doesn't have that going for it because it isn't a great story with a horrible execution, it's a well executed terrible story. There is nothing there to redeem it, there is nothing that will age well over time, there is nothing that will have people a decade or more looking at it and saying "the critics where right, their analysis where incoherent but they where right".

TLJ will be remembered as the Star Trek Discovery of the Star Wars franchise: critics love it, but the audience sure as fuck doesn't, and the bean counters will be out for blood.

With the Solo movie looking to be a financial disaster and Disney already expecting it to be a critical one even worst then TLJ, it isn't an exaggeration to say this could if things play out badly end up being a franchise killer.
 

Zontar

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COMaestro said:
Yes, it had it's problems, but so do all the films.
And not a single one of them that has as many problems has people pretending they aren't a steaming pile of shit or pretending that coming in 600 million short of expectations is anything other then a blunder. Only Star Wars could get people defending TLJ level of shit.
 

Zhukov

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I think some people in this thread are unaware that China has never given a shit about Star Wars.

https://www.cinemablend.com/new/Star-Wars-Force-Awakens-Suffered-Massive-Drop-Chinese-Box-Office-106877.html
 

peacefulescape

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Call me mainstream but probably another 10 more Marvel movies thrown in as an apology, and a life-sized X-Wing for good measure.
 

Zontar

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peacefulescape said:
a life-sized X-Wing for good measure.
They'll probably have those at their new additions to their parks given how much they're pouring into the Star Wars areas.
 

peacefulescape

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[/quote]
They'll probably have those at their new additions to their parks given how much they're pouring into the Star Wars areas.[/quote]

Goodness you're right, not to mention thousands of Porg plushies
 

Trunkage

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Zhukov said:
inu-kun said:
Zhukov said:
inu-kun said:
Avnger said:
Zhukov said:
Don't worry Zonty old buddy, the lads have got your back. They've made it all better.

https://www.pedestrian.tv/entertainment/last-jedi-mra-fan-edit-women/
And you stole the post I was going to make.
HA HA HA, you get the joke? We called him sexist, we are so clever!
Triggered, lol.

Some people are just so sensitive.
Sorry for being triggered for you straight up insulting others, good thing the Escapist has such good moderation to prevents such insults.
I never said anything about sexism. I pointed out that some valient heroes of mankind's culture war had bravely sought to redeem the agenda-driven travesty that was The Last Jedi with some skillful editing.

Why so defensive brah?
Alright, query unrelated to Star Wars. Sorry.

When people whinge about passive aggressiveness on the Escapist, is this what they mean? Ive been trying to see it for years and this seems to be the closest it's got that I've read
 

RaikuFA

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trunkage said:
Zhukov said:
inu-kun said:
Zhukov said:
inu-kun said:
Avnger said:
Zhukov said:
Don't worry Zonty old buddy, the lads have got your back. They've made it all better.

https://www.pedestrian.tv/entertainment/last-jedi-mra-fan-edit-women/
And you stole the post I was going to make.
HA HA HA, you get the joke? We called him sexist, we are so clever!
Triggered, lol.

Some people are just so sensitive.
Sorry for being triggered for you straight up insulting others, good thing the Escapist has such good moderation to prevents such insults.
I never said anything about sexism. I pointed out that some valient heroes of mankind's culture war had bravely sought to redeem the agenda-driven travesty that was The Last Jedi with some skillful editing.

Why so defensive brah?
Alright, query unrelated to Star Wars. Sorry.

When people whinge about passive aggressiveness on the Escapist, is this what they mean? Ive been trying to see it for years and this seems to be the closest it's got that I've read
Yes, and we're sick of it.
 

SeventhSigil

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I will say that as someone who thought the movie was 'okay,' the thing that disappointed me more than anything was that it ended up coloring a little too much 'in the lines.' Gonna spoiler tag the rest, don't know how spoiler friendly the thread is.

So the idea of the Jedi 'ending' had initially drawn my interest because even as someone who enjoyed the assorted media- though it's been yeeeeears since I've poked around any EU stuff- the Jedi themselves always seemed to be a little too cult-y to qualify for 'Good Guy' status. Anti-heroes, maybe, but the prequel films in particular (which, for all the hate they've gotten, were still more canonical than everything in the EU, soooo ha?) demonstrated things like how they very specifically indoctrinated really, really small kids who were removed from their families, and that they took emotional repression to grand new levels. They were a group for whom the Dark Side was to be avoided at all costs, be it pursuit of love or really any attachments beyond some sense of brotherhood with one's fellow Jedi.

Although the original films obviously came out first, the prequels did put Yoda's initial insistence of; 'Too old. Too old to begin the training!' in a new light, and highlighted the fact that Luke was intrinsically a character who had not been indoctrinated from infancy in the Jedi way. He had desires, frustrations, whiny demands to go get power converters instead of working the farm, etc, etc, and as such he was likely even more vulnerable to the Dark Side of the Force than his father had been. But ultimately he pulls through, reaffirms his commitment to the Light, etc, etc.

The trailers and even certain scenes in The Last Jedi had me wondering if they intended to further explore the notion that Luke was, perhaps, in a unique position to learn true balance; to shed the Jedi way in favor of something different. That scene in the film where Yoda decides 'fuck it, THIS is how you start a fire' and (seemingly) destroys the ancient Jedi texts, all while chortling over Luke's reflexive reverence of them, reinforced this notion that maybe they were going to go on a limb and say 'Hey, maybe there's a BETTER way to do this than the Jedi?' But of course, it turns out the ancient Jedi books are saved, dick all changes, and nothing is accomplished.

Also, Kylo ended up being a disappointment, if not a surprise. =P Something we haven't seen in the films, but did get explore in the EU to some extent, is the idea of a Dark Side user having to try and come back from that sort of past in the long term. Sure, Vader gets redeemed... and dies like three minutes later. But what about someone who has to both live with their actions while they were all angsty and emo, and resist the ever-present lure of the Dark Side's power, like a crazy ass lover you can't quite get out of your head? When Kylo ended up turning on his mentor, my first thought was 'Yeeeeah he's going to go power mad and try to take over the galaxy,' but it was then followed with a hopeful 'But hey, MAYBE they'll surprise me, and- nope, he's gone power made and is trying to take over the galaxy.'

Between that, a subplot that felt like filler, and a main plot that felt rather unnecessary, eh. x3 I don't feel the film is 'redeem itself' bad by any stretch, but at the same time it does sort of feel like a waste of a perfectly good Star Wars installment. As an in-between film, novel or television special it probably would have worked.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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CyanCat47 said:
Double down on everything people like Sargon hate. Make Poe Dameron go through gender-transition, make Finn gay and have him turn Kylo ren to the side of good through a romance between the two, make Rose the new general of the resistance, introduce a character who is Luke's former male lover, imply that Leia cuckolded Han Solo, turn the Millenium falcon into a porg shelter, have Rey become a more powerful Jedi than Yoda, imply that Jar Jar Binks and Obi-Wan were seecretly married, give commander Hux the face of Pepe the frog, and most importantly, end every scene with a character drinking green titty-milk

EDIT: Also, Rose discovers that she is the lost daughter of Admiral Holdo, and colours her hair pink to honour her memory
I mean, you've got at least one ticket outta me.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Zontar said:
2. How do you know they aren't part of the community? have you done tests or is this an assumption. also, the fact you use the term "feminids" is a dehumanization tactic and frankly one that i find makes it seem like you are desperate to discredit them.
You mean apart from the fact that we know SJWs don't buy shit and sales of material that panders to them dispels any myth that they do? I don't know, how about the active hostility to the community and open hatred for one of the three elements that makes up a wargaming franchise? Because it's a little hard to be part of a community while openly hating that community and openly mocking the very idea of an entire third of what makes up the foundation of that community.
3. "Insults fans?", you still haven't told me what is the qualification of a "fan" because i doubt that it's a consensus what fans of Star Wars think. Some want the new story meta and ideas, other don't. The fact that there is this discussion is proof enough.
I'm not going to even pretend you don't know what a fan is and get straight to the meat of it; fans are not discussing anything outside of what went wrong. People who didn't like Star Wars but somehow liked the trash we got with TLJ are discussing it.
Ah yes, the irrefutable logic of "anybody who thinks differently than me aren't real fans".

You got me. I had all the lines of dialogue in A New Hope memorized from the VHS THX remaster of the theatrical release so I could infiltrate the community 23 years later and destroy it from within.
 

Derekloffin

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Not really sure what they could do with things now. Rey is a boring ass character. I was hoping they'd improve her this installment, but instead they doubled down on pretty much everything wrong with her character. Finn is okay but just not interesting enough to carry things. Poe is similar. Rose... was a total waste of a character with the most out of nowhere love plot I've ever seen. And with Snoke out of the picture we have a really underwhelming villain in Kylo. Kylo was okay as a subordinate, but as the lead villain... yeah, no. Leia is out due to unforeseeable circumstances so sadly I kinda wish they'd kept Holdo, but nope. Luke can reappear as a force ghost I guess, but that largely puts him out of things. So... yeah, they have nothing of serious interest for me to work with for the next installment. They've pretty much exhausted all the nostalgia with the previous two and crushed any hope of future dipping into it. There new characters are just not gripping enough in their roles. And, the central conflict feels really weak now. I just don't see a way out for this mess that will grab me.

I came out of TFA with issues with the film, but largely excited for it to continue. I came out of TLJ feeling that was a great spectacle but the story was full of holes and with no real excitement for the next installment.
 

Kae

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I don't think they need to redeem themselves for Last Jedi, I'm not in love with the movie but I can at least say with pretty high confidence that it's the best Star Wars movie since the Original Trilogy, granted I actively dislike The Force Awakens for being so ridiculously safe that it was boring.

In any case at least it dared to be remotely interesting story-wise, and while some parts were predictable and some poorly written it at least aspired to be more than yet another Star Wars movie, if they go ahead and make more stuff like this I will actually be inclined to watch the next ones, and if you don't like it that's fine but I don't see why they need to answer directly to your crowd and apologize for screwing up by your standards, they didn't apologize to my crowd for shitty old Force Awakens super safe approach and they didn't apologize to the "Legends" fandom for getting rid of that either, because they don't have to, they don't owe that to anybody, not me, not you nor the Legends fandom, so yeah, this is kinda silly.
 

Jamcie Kerbizz

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Silvanus said:
Jamcie Kerbizz said:
There's a shoved in token 'asian girl' with, shoved in 'corrupt western capitalism is bad' plot in middle of the last movie, which both were suppose to be a smashing opener of chinese market to Disney...
Unfortunately a) girl isn't appealing when it comes to local standards, b) her role, sentiments and 'heroism' are unrelatable c) that 'pivotal' plot is actually taking a great piss on everything most modern chinese aspire to have.
Ah, so the "politicised piss" is actually just the presence of an Asian actress, even though no attention is brought to that fact in the movie; and you interpret arms dealers to be a direct allegory of "western Capitalism".

This political argument you're trying to make is built on such weak, flimsy foundations. You have to cut so many corners, describe it in such a reductionist manner, to force it to fit this preconceived political point.

The only one aggressively politicising it here is you. They just cast an Asian actress; you're the one that "lectured" us about it, because the film didn't even bring it up.
The only flimsy thing is your ability to address an argument without misrepresenting it. As per usual, you're wrong.
This is not politicized piss, this is pandering to asian market and I pointed out why it was failed attempt. The way this movie failed there speaks volumes itself. The fact you cowered away from adressing it just shows how credible you are in your arguments.
I also pointed out how it could have been done in actually appealing way. That ofcourse if Disney producers weren't dumb enough to not check (for starters) that in that part of the world bigger fandom is around Empire... not Rebellion and that they like heros like Jakson's Windu, not Boyega's Finn... I'll skip on doing their research on beauty standards because pragmatism invokes in some people shriekingly absurd reactions.

Cringe politicised piss, were things like democracy dies in thunderous applause dropped in prequels (as of oh noes Bush taken away our freedom whinging). Rich get richer while poor kids and animals suffer nonsense dropped in rendition of f-ing porto cervo(authistic communist argument that wealth comes from opressing and abusing the weak and meek). Arms dealers sell weapons to both sides of a confflict presented as ground breaking revelation (painting Finn a retard). Producer parading in shirt force is a female (bigger cringe than midiclorians as if now force has got to have a dong or a slit wtf? why drag SW into that drama). Lack of cast diversity on First Order side all the while there is visible effort done to have it on the other side (why bother with diversity when it is done in judgmental, selective and divisive way that contradicts its essence and reeks of PC instead of pragmatism). Racist and sexist token approach to casting in general, which is alien (and alienating) concept to people living in homogeneous societies.
 

EscapistAccount

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SeventhSigil said:
I was really interested in Kylo Ren up until they fluffed the landing on that pivotal moment, I was convinced him and Rey were going to join together and discover that the Light and Dark sides of the Force were bullshit and end up with a hybrid approach to the Force where you don't strive for balance to the extent nothing is allowed to change, but don't go so emotional that building a giant genocide laser because you disagree with the government seems reasonable.

I suspect that may well have been on the cards originally but then someone took a look at the script and said no. If they'd have done that there would have been no more not-Nazis and dudes in black with red lightsabers for the goodies to fight. It would have been a far more interesting film to watch but it would have killed the property, at least as far as refighting the same fight over and over.
 

Zhukov

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trunkage said:
Zhukov said:
I never said anything about sexism. I pointed out that some valient heroes of mankind's culture war had bravely sought to redeem the agenda-driven travesty that was The Last Jedi with some skillful editing.

Why so defensive brah?
Alright, query unrelated to Star Wars. Sorry.

When people whinge about passive aggressiveness on the Escapist, is this what they mean? Ive been trying to see it for years and this seems to be the closest it's got that I've read
Oh God, it was me killing the Escapist all along!

What have I done?