How did The Escapist's culture change so much?

[Zontar]

I honestly have not seen anyone calling this site pro-GG.

This site is most definitively pro-GG. Archon quite openly is. The mega-thread was allowed to stay open despite numerous flagrant violations of the CoC that got other threads locked since time immemorial. The new forum has a specifically relaxed CoC for the express purpose of allowing said discussion to continue.

Of course I've been openly critical of GG so I imagine that qualifies me as a "radical aGGro", but as someone who was here long before GG arrived there's been a pretty apparent bending of the rules to make space for them. It's fine, it's their site, they can do whatever they want. I'm not criticizing it. But I'm amazed anyone would deny it.

I'm going to be honest, the only bending of the CoC rules I've seen in the GID forum are towards people doing things like obvious and very intentional derailing, such as the accusation that GG defends child pornography, and to my knowledge the incidents on the old megathread that (many of which ended with warnings) where similar situations of intentional attempts at derailing, usually with the intent to get the thread locked once and for all.

 

[dragoongfa]

snip

I was talking solely about the gay stuff, /v/ and the GG board discussed the game in depth of course but the 'omfg gay' was so limited that I didn't even notice it.

 

[ZiggyE]

This site is most definitively pro-GG. Archon quite openly is.

Actually he's never said he's pro-GG or ever tweeted in support of the hashtag.

I mean you might be able to argue that he's sympathetic towards GamerGate or behind closed doors he supports GamerGate, but there's no way you can say he "quite openly is".

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'm going to be honest, the only bending of the CoC rules I've seen in the GID forum are towards people doing things like obvious and very intentional derailing, such as the accusation that GG defends child pornography, and to my knowledge the incidents on the old megathread that (many of which ended with warnings) where similar situations of intentional attempts at derailing, usually with the intent to get the thread locked once and for all.

Okay, I'll match you honesty for honesty. I think that's an absolutely ludicrous assertion. The mega-thread was a bizarre stew of breakneck shit-posting, conspiracy theories, and "gotcha" slams on other forum members. After the initial month or so there was little non-GG participation, and people actually seemed to make an extra effort at "civility" when that occurred. As to the GID forum, it has a special set of relaxed rules to allow for "the exploration of diverse issues". As I stated, I've been here a good while. Threadlocks were very common in any thread that got even mildly heated, often by page 2-3. This is very evidently NOT the case for the megathread or for GID threads in general unless they devolve into utter anarchy.

What sickens me is that the GG members accuse the modding team of being heavily biased against them.

Well, to be fair, Fox, almost everyone thinks the moderators are out to get them. All it takes is being moderated. That sentiment is certainly not limited to GG. People get stroppy when they get their hands slapped.

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

snip

snip

1. don't go to 8chan so I can't speak about them and 2.I'm not saying that these are all of gg but I'm just feel like it's made an unstoppable monster of bullshit that start stupid shit and using the word sjw like the worst of tumble uses misogynist that's all. I'm neutral in all of this I'm not picking side here.

ps. drinking game (take a shot everythime someone say sjw in that thread)

 

[MorphBallBomb]

Good thing I said it wasn't explicitly stated as being from GG then eh. But yeah it's probably just a spooky coincidence they unironically used GG rhetoric to talk about how much acknowledging gay people exist is a "Social Justice Warrior" move.

GamerGate invented the term 'SJW', just like GamerGate invented all words and phrases that oppose identity politics.

Weird how that works. Also, Gamergate is oppressed apparently.

Oppressed? Nah. Forced off of most websites, libeled and misrepresented in the media constantly, yeah.

 

[Fox12]

snip

This is true, but I've been moderated before, and I certainly deserved it. I just think the sites been very accommodating, and it's a little bit ungrateful to claim that moderators are out to get you. I just don't know what they want from everyone. Of course, after reading that 8chan post about trying to get Escapist members banned, I'll admit I'm somewhat soured on the movement.

That's not entirely fair on my part, though, as some GG members have actually tried to be pretty civil.

 

[MorphBallBomb]

snip

snip

1. don't go to 8chan so I can't speak about them and 2.I'm not saying that these are all of gg but I'm just feel like it's made an unstoppable monster of bullshit that start stupid shit and using the word sjw like the worst of tumble uses misogynist that's all. I'm neutral in all of this I'm not picking side here.

ps. drinking game (take a shot everythime someone say sjw in that thread)

There are times when it helps to acknowledge that many people on the Internet and young and dumb. This is not disagreement with you, by the way.

 

[dragoongfa]

snip

snip

1. don't go to 8chan so I can't speak about them and 2.I'm not saying that these are all of gg but I'm just feel like it's made an unstoppable monster of bullshit that start stupid shit and using the word sjw like the worst of tumble uses misogynist that's all. I'm neutral in all of this I'm not picking side here.

ps. drinking game (take a shot everythime someone say sjw in that thread)

Don't blame you for any of the above.

Frankly I see your point and I agree that GG may have played some part but imho it was something that was bound to happen. Over political correctness in everything was seen as a sore point for years and some people have become so antagonistic to PC that they have crossed to the other side.

I think that it's the action vs reaction principle in effect, the strongest and action that takes place the strongest the countering reaction will be.

And no, I certainly won't be able to handle that amount of alcohol.

 

[Zontar]

Snip

As I recall the Extra Credits leaving megathread (the former record holder for longest thread) received similar treatment given the nature of its content.

Good thing I said it wasn't explicitly stated as being from GG then eh. But yeah it's probably just a spooky coincidence they unironically used GG rhetoric to talk about how much acknowledging gay people exist is a "Social Justice Warrior" move.

Still waiting on the citation on that one, because the thread you linked to sure did not state, imply or convey a tone of "acknowledging gay people exist = SJW". Seems like the Pillars of Eternity joke all over again.

Also apparently having a gay character in your game = "trying to force more gays into entertainment". That's like a misunderstanding of what "trying" and "force" mean.

Seemed more like taking issue with the fact that there are a lot of people out there trying to force more gays into games (and given their reaction to a game no having a gay, or if it does how they act when, not if, it doesn't meet their impossible expectations, 'force' is an appropriate term) more so then the specific instance of the game itself.

You seem to have linked to 3 GG threads without an further explanation, which doesn't seem to back up what you said. Fancy clarifying what we're supposed to look at exactly?

You wanted evidence that we where not initially happy about the idea about the GID subforum instead of the megathread.

A little hard to criticise? Are you saying that you can't criticise the Escapist for hiring someone that's transphobic because other people were similar around 2011? Or are you saying that if you get rid of the two people who were like that, you can't criticise them for hiring another one?

I'm saying it's a little hard to stomach the criticism when most of the people doing it are the same people who cried over Jim and Bob leaving. I honestly don't care what someone's personal politics are if their product is good (which is why I kept watching Jim and Bob's content despite their politics and bigotry). If you're going to take issue with them hiring a bigot, fine, but most of those crying over the hiring where being hypocrisy about it.

Yeah, when I ignore all the times I've seen this place been called pro-GG I don't see anyone call it pro-GG either. Weird how that works. Also, Gamergate is oppressed apparently.

You know, just because you copy-pasted your previous statement doesn't change the fact that your anecdotal evidence anecdotal, or the fact that, again, pretty much all of the times I've seen people call this site pro-GG are only on this site, and there's all of one example I can' think of for someone who doesn't use this site doing so. Most of the reaction I've seen are more along the lines of us being considered full of ourselves.

Also, the only one here making the claim that GG is being oppressed is you. Not one of us is. Discriminated against, sure, as CalgaryExpo makes clear, but oppressed? Don't make me laugh.

 

[Zontar]

snip

This is true, but I've been moderated before, and I certainly deserved it. I just think the sites been very accommodating, and it's a little bit ungrateful to claim that moderators are out to get you. I just don't know what they want from everyone. Of course, after reading that 8chan post about trying to get Escapist members banned, I'll admit I'm somewhat soured on the movement.

That's not entirely fair on my part, though, as some GG members have actually tried to be pretty civil.

It's not so much that we are being targeted, as much as those who are being uncivil towards us being given unjustified leeway, with one obvious example being the allowance of spamming of accusations of our defending child pornography. Let's be frank, if 95% of the other users on this site did the same thing, directly accusing users of defending child pornography, they'd be moderated, they'd be warned, and no ammount of appealing would reverse that.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Has the site not been in a decline since the 2009-2011 era? Going back to page 20 of the off-topic discussion brings you back 2 months instead of 20 days. The fourms seem nowhere near as active as they were, and it only seems to be getting worse.

Yup. It's getting quite bad now, pretty much ONLY controversy-bait threads have any kind of legs. Possibly because the only people left are controversy hounds.

Site traffic seems to be steady in general, so I'm not sure what to blame for it. Quite possibly people are gravitating to other mediums to get their "bickering with strangers" fix and the internet forum is slowly ebbing away.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

These topics always remind me of similar topics like "When did /b/ become so shitty?" or "When did Tumblr/Reddit get weird?" or even "Since when was DeviantArt a nesting ground for pseudo-spiritual intellectuals?"

Sorry, but its always been that way. With no disrespect to the Escapist cause I love it, anything video game related has always been considered weird and "for creeps".

I remember being in grade-school and actually called to the principle's office to have my Gameboy confiscated because I wanted to spend recess playing Pokemon rather than kickball. I still remember my dad coming to pick me up that day and him saying right in front of me "Are you fucking serious?!" to the principle when she asked I never bring the device to school again. And I remember being endlessly called a dork by the girls in my class for liking Ocarina of Time.

All I'm saying here is a lot of people have historical amnesia when it comes to how gamers have been treated.

There was a golden age, once, roughly between 2008-2010, when video games weren't mainstream, but you could at least play them and still be considered a fully functional adult with a job/family/puppy.

But when people realized games could be platforms for personal political ideas, and journalists/critics starting judging games based on the creators rather than the game's merit, everything fell apart. Whatever fragile respect games like Mass Effect 2 and Arkham Asylum earned us has long since fallen away.
Every game you play is now seen as a political statement and a declaration of allegiance to one group or another.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

I wouldn't be very nice if I started pointing my finger at what I feel is the cause so I'll just say that as the site got larger, the population of people who thrive on controversy and argument multiplied.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

All I'm saying here is a lot of people have historical amnesia when it comes to how gamers have been treated.

There was a golden age, once, roughly between 2008-2010, when video games weren't mainstream, but you could at least play them and still be considered a fully functional adult with a job/family/puppy.

But when people realized games could be platforms for personal political ideas, and journalists/critics starting judging games based on the creators rather than the game's merit, everything fell apart. Whatever fragile respect games like Mass Effect 2 and Arkham Asylum earned us has long since fallen away.

Every game you play is now seen as a political statement and a declaration of allegiance to one group or another.

I'm sorry but that's...very silly.

I've been gaming since...I'm going to say about 1982. When I was in elementary and high school, gaming was about as fringe as it ever was. Very few people had personal computers. Consoles were still quite uncommon, even. In terms of appealing to girls at the time gaming was roughly approximate to leprosy. How often was I bullied BECAUSE I was a gamer? Zero instances. Through high school? Zero instances. Through University? Zero instances. As an adult? Zero instances. Which is not to say I was never bullied or given a hard time for anything in life, I was just never given flack for being a gamer.

Worst thing I ever saw was in college, when my roommate's girlfriend found him playing Nintendo with me (we'd rented it) and refused to kiss him, saying "I don't kiss little boys". So he said "sorry dude" and they went to his room and fucked. OH THE HUMANITY.

Generally speaking the common reaction to my gaming (which is my runaway #1 hobby) by non-gamers is, at worst, apathetic disinterest. If I asked any of them to make a political statement about me based on, say, my affection for XCOM or Bioshock or Total War, they'd look at me like I grew an extra head.

Nobody gives a shit. The persecution complexes some gamers have are absolutely ridiculous. 99% of the time they're the result of nerds yelling at other nerds on internet forums they willingly went to for the express purpose of shouting at one another.

 

[JamesStone]

Now I look at the list of popular forum posts and they're all about how men are oppressed, how women are stupid, exactly the sort of stuff that I'd loved this site for avoiding.

As someone who frequents the Off Topic forum, the Religion and Politics forum, the Gaming Industry Discussion forum, and the Gaming forum, I'd like to know where you saw that, because that isn't anywhere in those ones.

As for what you missed, over the years special interests have tried to push certain ideas, images and narratives which run counter to reality, and this site is one of many which has a sizeable part of its user base which pushed right back.

Calgary Expo shuts down Honey Badger booth - Full of people outraged that a bunch of gamergate trolls were kicked out of Calgary Expo for trying to shit up panels

Calgary Expo Rules Declare "Criticism" and "Judging" to be "Psychological Violence" - Full of people outraged that the Calgary Expo's rules prohibit shitting up their convention because women can't take the heat

GamerGate Goes to Washington - Full of people outraged that Zoe Quinn was allowed to speak at a congressional briefing on cyber-bullying

Those are the top forum threads suggested on the front page. It's a pattern, and it indicates that this isn't the sort of chill place that The Escapist used to be.

Sorry sorry, are you seriously defending the concept of "judging" and "criticism" as "psychological violence"? What?

I mean, yeah, the other posts reflect bad things. They also prove you didn't read the threads pass the title, but they do reflect bad things. But the second one... I didn't even know the second one happened and that Expo Rule is probably the most pathetic thing I've heard all week.

 

[Nomad]

The Escapist was seen as really high brow and snobbish when I first came here:- Really tough mods, really tough forum rules, an emphasis on proper discussion with nonsense comments being penalised...

It still has strict rules - (No low content posts, no personal attacks, no all caps posts, no mentioning the T word)... I think it's more the gaming society that has changed.

I would say the definition of "low content" seems to have shifted, though. For a while now (hard to say how long, since my visits are pretty irregular), there's been a pretty steady harvest of posts that basically contain nothing but an image macro inside a spoiler tag, for instance. The only time you'd see that a few years ago was if you clicked a text saying "X received a warning for this post. Click here to show the post."

As for the topics being discussed (and the way they're being discussed), I don't see the change. Sure, it's different issues now than it was before, but that's just because society isn't static.

 

[Zontar]

Indeed it did, it's right there in the first two sentences, but nice try ignoring it. But I go into greater detail in the thread linked if you want to discuss it more. Hit me up with a quote in that thread.

"Upon coming onto the forums I'd promptly heard about MKX's new supposed openly gay character, Kung Jin. I didn't even know MKX was coming out and I wouldn't have cared if I didn't see the SJW character."

A little antagonistic? Maybe, but equating acknowledging gays to being an SJW? Like hell.

How do you "force more gays into games"? I'd love to see an example of that happening if you could link one. Also, actively choosing to acknowledge gay people exist in your game = "Social Justice Warrior" move.

Calling for boycotts of games which don't feature gays or other minorities or women as the protagonist, though in all fairness this seems to be limited to people who would never buy those games in the first place complaing about games that are going to sell like hotcakes even if they're unplayable. And you may keep saying that people are saying that acknowledging gays = SJW, but even with your links you've yet to provide any evidence for that.

So that's a no to my question then, and still no source on your second claim. Unsurprising.

What, you wanted to know what I the links where in support of, and you know, I'm not digging through the whole god dame megathread to find a few quotes (some of which I distinctly remember came from you) from people against GG who wanted the megathead closed and the discussion moved to a new forum.

I'm saying it's a little hard to stomach the criticism when most of the people doing it are the same people who cried over Jim and Bob leaving. I honestly don't care what someone's personal politics are if their product is good (which is why I kept watching Jim and Bob's content despite their politics and bigotry). If you're going to take issue with them hiring a bigot, fine, but most of those crying over the hiring where being hypocrisy about it.

Just look through the threads which came up after Jim left and Bob was fired not renewed for his contract, and cross-reference the people lamenting his leaving to those who have complained about the hiring. You'll notice there's some considerable overlap, at least for those still active.

You know, just because you copy-pasted your previous statement doesn't change the fact that your anecdotal evidence anecdotal, or the fact that, again, pretty much all of the times I've seen people call this site pro-GG are only on this site, and there's all of one example I can' think of for someone who doesn't use this site doing so. Most of the reaction I've seen are more along the lines of us being considered full of ourselves.

Also, the only one here making the claim that GG is being oppressed is you. Not one of us is. Discriminated against, sure, as CalgaryExpo makes clear, but oppressed? Don't make me laugh.

And just repeating yourself two more times with different wording doesn't mean my original reply doesn't apply. If you say the same thing then expect the same answer you got the first time.

Also yeah you're right, I guess if the Escapist bends over backwards to accommodate GG then it's clear to see why some people have dropped the oppressed pretense it has been pedaling for months.

Bend over backwards? Letting people talk about something isn't bending over backwards. Unless you mean updating their ethics policies (which every major gaming site in the US has done since this started) or not bending over at the command of their competitors by being part of systemic censorship of a topic (GameJournosPros), no one is insane enough to consider that bending over backwards, hell if anything it's having a backbone.