How do you feel about remembrance day?

Boletes Net

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I don't want to appear cold hearted but frankly I don't really care about the dead....they always go on about how soldiers died for us but I pretty sure they died for the government....okay well theres an acception when it comes to WWII.....I still don't really give a shit and i'm not going to wear a poppy so that I can pretend I do :)
 

The Cheezy One

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I sorta understand what you said. The past is the past.
But the past also made us what we are, and we should respect those that died to give us what we have. Also, the poppy money goes to widows of soldiers, wounded, and in fact anyone affected by war.
And you mean exception, not acception.
 

Boletes Net

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We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
 

Boletes Net

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The Cheezy One said:
I sorta understand what you said. The past is the past.
But the past also made us what we are, and we should respect those that died to give us what we have.
And you mean exception, not acception.
Yeah Its just me tbh when someone I know dies I dont feel as strongly as others seem to either an I knew i was gonna spell something wrong! :p
 

Boletes Net

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Pirate Kitty said:
If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Don't we already have that anyway? I mean in the majority....
 

MentalMyles

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Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Yes! you speak the truth.
 

junkmanuk

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Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Pirate Kitty has summed up quite well.

My less eloquent answer would be 'you're a selfish jackass with an entitlement complex who doesn't understand the pain felt by many people whose children AT YOUR AGE were thrust into a war with a huge chance of death in order to defend the rights and freedoms that you enjoy today.'

You can thank your deity that war has changed sufficiently that you will never experience what they did, and we have a duty to remember these things so that future generations will not make the same mistakes.
 

CCountZero

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While I do believe veterans deserve the respect of the people, it strikes me as odd that people will go about their business 364/365, but devote 1/365 to the vets.

Just doesn't seem right that most people only give a damn on the one day.

Way I see it, we remember the people who made the world what it is today by trying our best not to screw it up. (whether we are or not is a discussion for another time)



The same could be said for most other special days.
 

Verlander

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I respect the dead, mainly because what happened completely changed the way the world is today. Fascism would be more acceptable, and none of us would be alive. They were "world" wars because they affected the world. I wear a poppy because I, like nearly everyone in Europe/America/Australia and a lot of Asia, had family who fought and died in it. I'm sad on my families anniversary of death, and I'm respectful for this.

The poppy was meant so that the wars wouldn't be forgotten or repeated, and if more people held on to that thought, maybe the big western countries wouldn't be so thoughtless and slapdash with their attitudes towards war.
 

7moreDead_v1legacy

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Boletes Net said:
Pirate Kitty said:
If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Don't we already have that anyway? I mean in the majority....
At least if people are wearing poppies and attending the silence the people that do not know will ask questions...Mainly the younger generations and idiots.

I watched a program the other night that had me pretty shocked about the volunteers lack of knowledge about WW2, so I shudder too think what the people on the show would know about WW1...

I for one am grateful too the dead and the living for not having to goose step about with blonde hair and blue eyes...Damn you Scandinavians!
 

Boletes Net

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7moreDead said:
Boletes Net said:
Pirate Kitty said:
If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Don't we already have that anyway? I mean in the majority....
At least if people are wearing poppies and attending the silence the people that do not know will ask questions...Mainly the younger generations and idiots.

I watched a program the other night that had me pretty shocked about the volunteers lack of knowledge about WW2, so I shudder too think what the people on the show would know about WW1...

I for one am grateful too the dead and the living for not having to goose step about with blonde hair and blue eyes...Damn you Scandinavians!
I totally agree with you, other than you seem to think that remembering these things will prevent them in the future? which I personally don't agree with...I think thats against human nature and there are way worse sides of humanity yet to come.
 

Boletes Net

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junkmanuk said:
'you're a selfish jackass with an entitlement complex who doesn't understand the pain felt by many people whose children AT YOUR AGE were thrust into a war with a huge chance of death in order to defend the rights and freedoms that you enjoy today.'
Okay you make a point atleast...i wouldnt say a good one, what freedoms do we really have? cause from what I can tell these days you've not aloud to say anything because of fear of terrorism and even if you get a voice the government will say well we'll just break the law to stop you cause we think its wrong (example: prop 19). I'm not selfish I appreciate what I have but theres no saying the world wouldnt be a wonderful place had hitler won the war...im pretty sure it wouldnt but you cant predict theses things, I don't owe my life to a bunch of strangers who died so i could live in a comfortable seat in a nanny state :)
 

Wadders

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I wear a poppy because I respect the dead, and especially those who died for our freedoms in the World Wars, when they were barely the same age as I am now. Those people died so that we can enjoy our lifes as we are doing now. I have grandparents and great grandparents who fought in the 2 World Wars, as does nearly everyone else of my generation.

They do not deserve to be forgotten or belittled.

People like you make me sigh.

Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
I know the quote notifications are probably pissing you off buy now, but yeah, you hit the nail on the head.

Boletes Net said:
junkmanuk said:
'you're a selfish jackass with an entitlement complex who doesn't understand the pain felt by many people whose children AT YOUR AGE were thrust into a war with a huge chance of death in order to defend the rights and freedoms that you enjoy today.'
theres no saying the world wouldnt be a wonderful place had hitler won the war...im pretty sure it wouldnt but you cant predict theses things, I don't owe my life to a bunch of strangers who died so i could live in a comfortable seat in a nanny state
I can say with 100% certainty the world would not have been a better place if we had lost the war. Unless of course, you symathise with killing vast amounts of Jews and Slavs.

Also: would you rather live in a nanny state, or some shit hole like Zimbabwe or N. Korea? I'm sorry dude, but you're being very ungreatful, there are people in the world in a worse off situation than you are. My point being that even if you dont like this country, you cant deny that it's better than a lot of other places.
 

PoliceBox63

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No matter what my feelings on war and the like are, I will always have great respect for soldiers, their bravery and the sacrifices they made. They deserve respect.
 

dex-dex

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people who do not learn about history they are doomed to repeat it.

also they had enough balls to give up their lives for the future.
that is the least we can do.
 

Megalodon

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Rememberance Day used to really annoy me. When I was small in the Beavers/Cubs, it amounted to having to stand outside a church, often in the rain, for ages while a trumpet played and people made boring speeches. That really wasn't a good way of conveying the point of the day to a 5-10 year old.
 

7moreDead_v1legacy

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Boletes Net said:
7moreDead said:
Boletes Net said:
Pirate Kitty said:
If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Don't we already have that anyway? I mean in the majority....
At least if people are wearing poppies and attending the silence the people that do not know will ask questions...Mainly the younger generations and idiots.

I watched a program the other night that had me pretty shocked about the volunteers lack of knowledge about WW2, so I shudder too think what the people on the show would know about WW1...

I for one am grateful too the dead and the living for not having to goose step about with blonde hair and blue eyes...Damn you Scandinavians!
I totally agree with you, other than you seem to think that remembering these things will prevent them in the future? which I personally don't agree with...I think thats against human nature and there are way worse sides of humanity yet to come.
I never stated that I think it will act as a prevention o.0
Hell I am all for war, it spurs innovation and helps thin out global numbers (albeit in a grizzly fashion).

But it is bad taste to forget those that fought to protect other nations as well as their own.
 

Master Kuja

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Pretty much the entirety of my family are military brats, we've got a long standing service in the armed forces, that alone should sum up my opinion on remembrance day.
 

Boletes Net

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7moreDead said:
Boletes Net said:
Pirate Kitty said:
If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Don't we already have that anyway? I mean in the majority....
At least if people are wearing poppies and attending the silence the people that do not know will ask questions...Mainly the younger generations and idiots.

I watched a program the other night that had me pretty shocked about the volunteers lack of knowledge about WW2, so I shudder too think what the people on the show would know about WW1...

I for one am grateful too the dead and the living for not having to goose step about with blonde hair and blue eyes...Damn you Scandinavians!
Like only two people in my class bowed their heads in silence at 11:00 this morning. Me and the Canadian girl. Mind you, most of my class consists of Asians (Taiwanese, Malay, Japanese who had no involvement in WWI) but there's still a few Europeans in there too who didn't do anything. Made me a sad panda.
 

leviathanmisha

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I wear a poppy in honor of the man I called my father. So, I think it's obvious how I feel about remembrance day. I respect all soldiers, because I know what they go through and I know how it effects them.

Boletes Net said:
I don't want to appear cold hearted but frankly I don't really care about the dead....they always go on about how soldiers died for us but I pretty sure they died for the government....okay well theres an acception when it comes to WWII.....I still don't really give a shit and i'm not going to wear a poppy so that I can pretend I do :)
If we don't honor our dead, who will? You may not like it, but you have so much to thank a veteran for. And is it that hard to honor them for one day out of the year? I honor my father every day, yeah, but I owe him for giving me life and raising me to see the world the way that I do, so, is it wrong for us to ask for one day to honor those that fought for us and those that died defending the freedom that we deem most precious?
 

Boletes Net

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Boletes Net said:
I don't want to appear cold hearted but frankly I don't really care about the dead....they always go on about how soldiers died for us but I pretty sure they died for the government....okay well theres an acception when it comes to WWII.....I still don't really give a shit and i'm not going to wear a poppy so that I can pretend I do :)
I agree with you.
First off, I am going to associate it with WWI. WWII was terrible and then we haven't had any wars like that since.
Secondly, WWI is / was awesome from a fictional/historical viewpoint.
Thirdly, Manfred & Lothar von Richtoffen were awesome. One got shot down like 10 times (exaggurating) but survived while the other one was a fearsome ace.

Being on the ground must have sucked majorly during WWI from the stories I've read. Mud that caused your feet to rot.
It's a bit fun to hear that they had a cease fire during Chirstmas. Or was it new years..



Ai Senshi

English version by Andrew WK

NekoiHiokans said:
I wear a poppy in honor of the man I called my father. So, I think it's obvious how I feel about remembrance day. I respect all soldiers, because I know what they go through and I know how it effects them.

OP: If we don't honor our dead, who will? You may not like it, but you have so much to thank a veteran for. And is it that hard to honor them for one day out of the year? I honor my father every day, yeah, but I owe him for giving me life and raising me to see the world the way that I do, so, is it wrong for us to ask for one day to honor those that fought for us and those that died defending the freedom that we deem most precious?
Do you respect those who just join up to get praise? Because I don't.
I find them disgusting. If you are going to join the army, join it for yourself. Don't join it for others.

There is no need to honor the dead.
If you want to honor the dead, do something posetive about it and not depressing.
And please, don't bring in the talk about "Oh the Freedom they defended for us whom so carelessly neglects".
 

Boletes Net

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I take flags to the graves of friends and family who had been in the military and respect the duty served.
 

scnj

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It was drilled into me as a kid that I had to care about the whole thing, but I was never told why, so I kind of stopped caring. I think it's tragic that all those people died, but I'm not going to wear a poppy, because it would feel false to me.
 

Soviet Steve

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I don't wear poppies but Denmark was never a player on the global stage as far as military matters were concerned, and in fact the biggest event here aside from the occupation was a stray allied bomber destroying a children's school.

I've spent a lot of time studying history though, and in my mind remembering and understanding what happened is more important than carrying around a flower for a day.
 

Zhukov

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Eh, not a lot.

I used to have quite a bit of respect for soldiers. Then I met a bunch of them. Any and all respect promptly went out the window without a second thought.

As for all those past soldiers "who died to protect my freedom"... well, that's bullshit. Those soldiers never knew me and they sure as hell didn't die for me. They died for all sorts of reasons. Many of them barely had any idea why they were dying. Many of them died because someone in a big hat told them to. Many of them were conscripts who probably didn't even want to be there in the first place.

Also, remembrance stuff has a nasty tendency to get covered up with a whole load of nationalistic "Oh-wow-our-country-is-so-much-greater-then-everyone-else's" crap which I can't stand.

I mean, I suppose I could wear one of the those little flowers and pretend to give a damn. You know, bow my head at 11 o'clock while thinking about what I'm going to make for dinner. But wouldn't that be even less respectful then being openly indifferent?
 

Wicky_42

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My Grandfather fought, and fought well. I didn't know him that well, and he barely spoke of his time there, but at his funeral his medals were there and the couple of stories he'd shared emerged, and I gained a new found respect for the old man.

I may disagree with the politicians leading the wars, and be on occasion a vocal liberal with a strong anti-nuclear stance, but I can at least respect the men doing one of the hardest jobs on the planet in some of the harshest most lethal conditions, and support those who are critically injured as a result.

When I attend a Remembrance Day gathering I remember him, and the others who gave so much to protect our freedom.

[sub]plus they had an artillery cannon in the square. That's just cool.[/sub]
 

DiscoLenin

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you need to remember that rememberence day isn't just about the dead, it's about those currently serving and those who have served and are still alive.
It doesn't matter whether you agree with any of the wars currently going on, but at least show some respect for the soldiers
 

Boletes Net

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Boletes Net said:
I don't want to appear cold hearted but frankly I don't really care about the dead....they always go on about how soldiers died for us but I pretty sure they died for the government....okay well theres an acception when it comes to WWII.....I still don't really give a shit and i'm not going to wear a poppy so that I can pretend I do :)
In showing respect for the dead you are caused to think about war. You are also showing respect for the very many LIVING vets that fought to protect you and continue to fight to protect you today.
 

EightGaugeHippo

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*Im not going to post the full comment as it would result in multiply swear words aimed at the OP.*

Short version is
"I disagree very, very strongly"
 

leviathanmisha

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Zeithri said:
I'm not going to dignify that with anything more than this: you disgust me...

Sorry that I was raised by a good man who taught me the importance of what people fought for and that I can still respect that to this very day.

 

Ekit

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Zhukov said:
Eh, not a lot.

I used to have quite a bit of respect for soldiers. Then I met a bunch of them. Any and all respect promptly went out the window without a second thought.

As for all those past soldiers "who died to protect my freedom"... well, that's bullshit. Those soldiers never knew me and they sure as hell didn't die for me. They died for all sorts of reasons. Many of them barely had any idea why they were dying. Many of them died because someone in a big hat told them to. Many of them were conscripts who probably didn't even want to be there in the first place.

Also, remembrance stuff has a nasty tendency to get covered up with a whole load of nationalistic "Oh-wow-our-country-is-so-much-greater-then-everyone-else's" crap which I can't stand.

I mean, I suppose I could wear one of the those little flowers and pretend to give a damn. You know, bow my head at 11 o'clock while thinking about what I'm going to make for dinner. But wouldn't that be even less respectful then being openly indifferent?
What he said basically.

Just out of curiosity, what did the soldiers do to lose your respect?
 

C95J

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I wear a poppy, and do the 2 minute silence a 11am.

But I guess you could say I don't care too much, like someone else said the past is the past, and I don't have anything to do with it, so it doesn't effect me at all.
 

Count Igor

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Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Do we?
That's generalising a fair bit :D

Anyway, I buy the poppy and wear it, but I know many things I could be doing in that 2 minutes.
 

Boletes Net

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Count Igor said:
Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Do we?
That's generalising a fair bit :D

Anyway, I buy the poppy and wear it, but I know many things I could be doing in that 2 minutes.
Note that I said "If we forget this", not 'we do forget this'.

No generalization.
 

Wutaiflea

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Boletes Net said:
I don't want to appear cold hearted but frankly I don't really care about the dead....they always go on about how soldiers died for us but I pretty sure they died for the government....okay well theres an acception when it comes to WWII.....I still don't really give a shit and i'm not going to wear a poppy so that I can pretend I do :)
Personally, I think its wrong to glorify the hideous atrocities that take place in war, or to blindly use the word "hero" to sum up someone who, in all honesty, probably didn't come home feeling particularly heroic.
I hate war movies, war books, and anything that overemphasises this side of it.

However, in my daily life, I benefit from the sacrifices made in war. While I very much doubt that my uncle, who was a POW in WWII, considered himself to be fighting for my future freedoms, what he did, and indeed what he lost while doing it, is worthy of respect.

I've been accused of being irreverent towards vets in my day to day life by choosing not to glorify them, but Remembrance Day is a time I respect, and turn my mind towards reflecting on those who died.

I respect you for staying true to your beliefs though. If you don't want to wear a poppy, you shouldn't.
 

Boletes Net

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NekoiHiokans said:
Zeithri said:
I'm not going to dignify that with anything more than this: you disgust me...

Sorry that I was raised by a good man who taught me the importance of what people fought for and that I can still respect that to this very day.

I decided to PM you with discussion value since I fear it might turn into flames otherwise.
 

Count Igor

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Pirate Kitty said:
Count Igor said:
Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Do we?
That's generalising a fair bit :D

Anyway, I buy the poppy and wear it, but I know many things I could be doing in that 2 minutes.
Note that I said "If we forget this", not 'we do forget this'.

No generalization.
I was more referring to the fact that we become ungrateful, etc...
Surely you can forget it and NOT become that? Or do you have something against people with Alzheimers? [gasp][/shockhorror]
 

El Poncho

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Zhukov said:
Eh, not a lot.



As for all those past soldiers "who died to protect my freedom"... well, that's bullshit. Those soldiers never knew me and they sure as hell didn't die for me. They died for all sorts of reasons. Many of them barely had any idea why they were dying. Many of them died because someone in a big hat told them to. Many of them were conscripts who probably didn't even want to be there in the first place.
They did die to protect your freedom. Maybe they didn't know they were fighting for your specific freedom, but they were fighting for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced to sign up but in the end they were still fighting for the freedom of their country and other countries at the same time. So some joined to fight for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced but the outcome was the same, freedom for their country. Some didn't know what they were dying for but they were still dying for it, and this is why we honour them.

It is very selfish to think dying for you means specifically for you.
 
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dex-dex said:
people who do not learn about history they are doomed to repeat it.
This is true. And aren't those who died [art of history? And if you cannot look at those graves of the soldiers and say "You did absolutely nothing and I don't respect you" then I urge you to give it a little more thought. (Where do you guys all live? In America today is Veterans day. I assume it's similar.)
junkmanuk said:
Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Pirate Kitty has summed up quite well.

My less eloquent answer would be 'you're a selfish jackass with an entitlement complex who doesn't understand the pain felt by many people whose children AT YOUR AGE were thrust into a war with a huge chance of death in order to defend the rights and freedoms that you enjoy today.'

You can thank your deity that war has changed sufficiently that you will never experience what they did, and we have a duty to remember these things so that future generations will not make the same mistakes.
This kinda sums up how I feel. Anyone who will lay down their live for a cause is deserving of respect, let alone someone who laid down their life for YOU and YOUR freedoms. And do you think it wouldn't be a nanny state if, say the Germans won? Essentially the whole of Europe would be their empire and do you think you could say ANYTHING that was even slightly out of line? Could you vote? Would there even be a chance for you to improve your life? Just ponder these questions.
 

Boletes Net

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Count Igor said:
Pirate Kitty said:
Count Igor said:
Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Do we?
That's generalising a fair bit :D

Anyway, I buy the poppy and wear it, but I know many things I could be doing in that 2 minutes.
Note that I said "If we forget this", not 'we do forget this'.

No generalization.
I was more referring to the fact that we become ungrateful, etc...
Surely you can forget it and NOT become that? Or do you have something against people with Alzheimers? [gasp][/shockhorror]
You completely missed the point.
 

Trivun

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Well, my late grandfather was in WW2, though as far as I'm aware he didn't actually do any fighting, he was a sailor in the Royal Navy and he could easily have ended up in a combat situation. My late uncle was a journalist who reported from various places around the world for British newspapers, including warzones. He was actually in Israel, or Palestine (not sure which), eating his breakfast at a cafe when some firefight started, and he was right in the middle of it. He was exceptionally lucky to get away without any wounds, let alone alive. Oh, for the record, both my relatives died peacefully at home or hospital, of illness rather than war. Just so's you know.

Anyway, I have the utmost respect for British troops, regardless of my feelings about the war. I disagree entirely with us being in Iraq and Afghanistan (thank you, Bush and Blair, you absolute retarded jackasses...). But I also realise that to pull out now would be more stupid, because the problems over there still need to be fixed (regardless of how they were caused in the first place). Removing troops would just be a sign of weakness and allow insurgents to win, effectively. We need to stay there at least for the time being to try and get those countries troops trained and ready to fight for themselves.

Anyway, regardless of my feelings on the war, I have nothing but admiration for the troops themselves, putting their lives on the line constantly because they care about their country and about defending this great nation. I went to Florida on holiday a few years ago, and at every theme park we went to, every event that happened, US soldiers and their families were given free or discount entry and made to feel really welcome. And you know what? This wasn't just US troops. The same courtesy extended to the troops and families of troops from the UK, Australia, and all the other Allied countries fighting together in warzones like Iraq and Afghanistan. And those troops, al the Allies, were always thanked and singled out for praise everywhere (they had a special thing at Seaworld in the Shamu show specifically giving thanks to Allied troops, both US forces and others). You never see anything like that in the UK, the most anyone ever does as a sign of respect to our troops is when people line the streets in Wooten Basset when they bring the bodies of fallen soldiers home. And that's only the locals, and families and friends of the dead, who ever do that (well, I guess there may be a rare few exceptions...).

No-one in this country seems to care anymore about our troops, and it's not because they don't agree with the soldiers themselves, but purely because they don't like the idea of the war or the government. That's just a completely stupid way of looking at things. A soldier does what he or she does for the love of serving their country. They don't have a say in where they're sent or what wars they fight in, they just have to follow orders. Does that mean that if they die in battle, they aren't worthy of our respect or time? No. That's just selfish of us. So I'm going to proudly wear my poppy to work tonight, and when I'm in town tomorrow, and when I'm watching the local rugby team play on Sunday I'll be standing in that stadium with a poppy adorning my shirt. Because whether I agree with the government or not, I certainly agree with the soldiers, and they are certainly most deserving of our respect.
 

Pariah87

New member
Jul 9, 2009
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Having a Granfather and several of his brothers fight in WWII, I was brought up to have a solemn respect for the events of all wars, and for those who never made it home.

It's easy to sit here now, at a computer screen and say you don't give a shit, the past is the past and all that shit, because our lives are so very different now. We forget that had these events not transpired then we'd be living in a very different reality today. Perhaps not America as much as those living in Europe. Had Hitler succeeded then Britain was to be turned into one big island concentration camp for example. A far cry from what the country has turned out to be today.

Another reason to remember is the tradgedy of the events. I'm sure many Americans observed the silence for 9/11? I didn't personally nor did any other Brit I know, simply because the tradgedy wasn't aimed at us, so we see it with an outside perspective which doesn't contain the sting which it still holds for many Americans, at least the ones I've known personally. At the Somme, 200,000 men died in the first hour. That's 4/5 of the population of my town, wiped out in 60 minutes. The town of Ypres was bombarded flat by artillery. Wounds were inflicted apon Western Europe both physically and mentally, leaving scars and markers which are still visible today.

Yes, the dead are dead, yes, we can't change the events of the past, but is to even remember or give a passing grain of respect to these events really so silly, or too much effort?

Veterans and other loved ones are remembered on a daily basis by those who knew them, it's not about putting them aside for 364/365 days a year. The one day is a marker, the end point of WWI, so that as a nation we can pay our respects in unison, to those of all nations in all wars who fell in the name of senseless conflict.

The attitude of the OP, to me at least, sums up everything which is wrong with this up and comming generation and frankly it sickens me. To simply not care at all? Perhaps that is the problem, we simply don't give a shit anymore about anything but ourselves.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
13,768
0
0
Ekit said:
Just out of curiosity, what did the soldiers do to lose your respect?
It wasn't so much what they did, but rather what they were.

First off, I got some insight into how the army operates. Modern military training is designed to condition soldiers to obey orders without question. And it is very effective. I underwent the training myself. After about a month of it, if a corporal had ran into my bedroom in the middle of the night and ordered me to do a handstand in my pyjamas, I would have done so without hesitation. If that same corporal had ordered me to drag a wounded man while under fire, I would have done that too. Not because I wanted to, or because I gave a damn, but because I had been psychologically conditioned over an extended period of time to obey without question. My point is, getting all sentimental about the brave stuff that soldiers do is like getting sentimental about your oven cooking your dinner every night.

Secondly, I came to the realisation that soldiers are just people. (Yes, I know, that sounds rather dumb in retrospect.) Furthermore, many of them are brash, arrogant young males without education or intelligence. The kind of people I do not particularly like. I'm not going to suddenly start hero-worshipping them because they put on green pants and start waving rifles around.

Lastly, I noticed that many soldiers (especially the aforementioned young males) had a rather unsavoury... eagerness to see action. And not in a "I want to protect my country" sort of way. They were eager to live out the hollywood hero fantasy. Y'know, the kind of thing that you might see in your average military-themed first person shooter video game. I asked one fellow why he joined up and he replied, "I want to see explosions and kill ragheads."

...

That probably sounds a bit harsh. Many of the soldiers I met were very professional and seemed like decent people. Especially the older and more experienced ones. But when all is said and done, if a person has willingly chosen a profession that is all about killing people (or at least facilitating the killing of people) then they are either a brute, an idiot or a stooge. (*equips flameshield*) I can recognise that, our world being the way that it is, such people are necessary. But I don't really want anything to do with them and I'm certainly not about to start worshipping them.

(Wow. This post ended waaaaay longer then intended. Oh well.)
 

Sparrow

New member
Feb 22, 2009
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Boletes Net said:
I don't want to appear cold hearted but frankly I don't really care about the dead....they always go on about how soldiers died for us but I pretty sure they died for the government....okay well theres an acception when it comes to WWII.....I still don't really give a shit and i'm not going to wear a poppy so that I can pretend I do :)
Sheesh, man. Atleast pretend to care. What you said is equiviliant to "well, people with cancer didn't do anything for me so screw them".
 

Akai Shizuku

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Jul 24, 2009
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I oppose Remembrance Day, as it is a day for remembering the soldiers who killed and were killed in the name of narrow nationalism and corporate interest. Fuck that shit.

Also, the whole "they died for our freedom" bit is a load of right-wing propaganda.

1) What freedom?
2) Suppose your country got its ass kicked in WW1 and lost out on its imperialist gains, and murdered less indigenous peoples to take over their land and resources than Austria or something. Or suppose the Nazis kicked your country's ass in WW2 and the Soviet Union plowed through them anyway just as they already would have (considering that the USSR was the main force against the Nazis, did most of the fighting, and ultimately were the ones who not only defeated Nazi forces but plowed right through Berlin and put the Soviet flag up on the Reichstag while most other countries fighting the Nazis [INCLUDING YOUR RED WHITE AND BLUE] were little more than a distraction and were considered insignificant by them). What then?

This video made by a friend of mine further explains the position I have on this, particularly current wars.


tl;dr
Remembrance Day is a load of nationalistic propaganda.
 

Cgull

Behind You
Oct 31, 2009
339
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0
The poppy, hell, remembrance day itself has got sod all to do with whether the soldiers fighting knew what they were fighting for or why, the fact is that they were out there protecting the way of life they knew and loved (I'm specifically referring to World Wars here, there have been others but these are the ones everyone thinks of) as well as the lives/livelihoods of the people back home.

It's not to glorify war or create a political issue, it's to remember and give thanks to those that were dying in horrendous conditions so that others wouldn't.

To say 'they didn't die for me specifically'is a true (if not a fairly selfish) statement, but then I wouldn't die for any of you either, I would die to protect my loved ones and my way of life which is all these servicemen were doing at the time.

That said, if you disagree, don't buy a Poppy and enjoy the freedom of not doing so.

TL:DR - Remembrance day is not a political issue about whether war is right or wrong, it's about the sacrifices others have made on your behalf. Don't support it if you don't want, but don't try to tell me it's because 'they didn't die for me'.
 

Simon Hadow

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Mar 12, 2009
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I hold it up as a semi-important holiday, if only to remember that, if we don't remember the sacrifices that others made, if not "For" us, then in our name, that we become ignorant, entitled slobs. But, my one friend, for him it's more important than Christmas. He was raised on a military base for the first 10 years of his life, and his dad was on the frontlines in multiple peace-keeping missions, and saw alot of combat. He was raised aathiast, so christmas had no spirtual signifigance to him, and never liked his extended family, so they didn't visit relatives then. But Remembrance day is probably the most important day of the year for them, if only because of his dad's emotional investment.

And as a note to everyone who says that Remebrance day is unimportant because it's about soldiers who were TOLD they were dying for their family, but were really dying in the name of nationalism, or propaganda, or whatever your particular breed of head-up-your-ass conspiracy theory is, the soldiers didn't die for capatilism, or nationalism, or government. In their minds, they died for us. Or at least, for the future of their country. Disrespecting them because they were manipulated doesn't make you a revolutionist, or even a rebel. It makes you an ungrateful jerk, who thinks thinks that people who died at least trying to fight for freedom don't deserve thanks because they were brainwashed by "Higher Up's" in Washington, or Moscow, or wherever the head of the snake lies for a particular army.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
13,768
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El Poncho said:
Zhukov said:
[snipped to save space]
They did die to protect your freedom. Maybe they didn't know they were fighting for your specific freedom, but they were fighting for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced to sign up but in the end they were still fighting for the freedom of their country and other countries at the same time. So some joined to fight for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced but the outcome was the same, freedom for their country. Some didn't know what they were dying for but they were still dying for it, and this is why we honour them.

It is very selfish to think dying for you means specifically for you.
Okay, let me put this another way. A whole lot of guys ran around killing each other and dying all over the place. This we know to be true. Now, let us assume that they died "for the freedom of their country". So... why exactly am I personally expected to care about this?

....

No, wait. That doesn't work either. That just makes me sound like a apathetic brat.

...

Let me put it yet another way. In the year 575 BC the Battle of Yanling took place between the states of Chu and Jin. A whole lot of Chinese guys died "for the freedom of their countries." Do you genuinely care about this? Are you going to commemorate this every year? Are you going to wear a little flower on your shirt? Salute a flag perhaps? Yes? No?
 

Count Igor

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May 5, 2010
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Pirate Kitty said:
Count Igor said:
Pirate Kitty said:
Count Igor said:
Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Do we?
That's generalising a fair bit :D

Anyway, I buy the poppy and wear it, but I know many things I could be doing in that 2 minutes.
Note that I said "If we forget this", not 'we do forget this'.

No generalization.
I was more referring to the fact that we become ungrateful, etc...
Surely you can forget it and NOT become that? Or do you have something against people with Alzheimers? [gasp][/shockhorror]
You completely missed the point.
Most likely yes. Sorry.
 

Simon Hadow

New member
Mar 12, 2009
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blue_guy said:
If you want to respect someone, respect them while they are alive.
Great idea! I'll go whip up some Necromancy potions right now, so I can shake a WWI Vets hand!
Okay, so the sarcasm is maybe uncalled for, but Remebrance day is to honor those that you CAN'T directly say thank you to.Because they're either in another country, or dead. You can shake a living veterans hand any day, Rememberance day reminds us that there are those who DIED to (At least, in their minds) protect their countries freedom.
 

El Poncho

Techno Hippy will eat your soul!
May 21, 2009
5,891
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Zhukov said:
El Poncho said:
Zhukov said:
[snipped to save space]
They did die to protect your freedom. Maybe they didn't know they were fighting for your specific freedom, but they were fighting for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced to sign up but in the end they were still fighting for the freedom of their country and other countries at the same time. So some joined to fight for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced but the outcome was the same, freedom for their country. Some didn't know what they were dying for but they were still dying for it, and this is why we honour them.

It is very selfish to think dying for you means specifically for you.
Okay, let me put this another way. A whole lot of guys ran around killing each other and dying all over the place. This we know to be true. Now, let us assume that they died "for the freedom of their country". So... why exactly am I personally expected to care about this?

....

No, wait. That doesn't work either. That just makes me sound like a apathetic brat.

...

Let me put it yet another way. In the year 575 BC the Battle of Yanling took place between the states of Chu and Jin. A whole lot of Chinese guys died "for the freedom of their countries." Do you genuinely care about this? Are you going to commemorate this every year? Are you going to wear a little flower on your shirt? Salute a flag perhaps? Yes? No?
But it isn't my country, or my freedom... If I was chinese I may very well commemorate them every year having been educated about it.

The people you are honouring are the soldiers from your country, who fought for your freedom.
The chinese guys fought for their country and their freedom.
 

Boletes Net

New member
Nov 9, 2010
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Count Igor said:
Pirate Kitty said:
Count Igor said:
Pirate Kitty said:
Count Igor said:
Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Do we?
That's generalising a fair bit :D

Anyway, I buy the poppy and wear it, but I know many things I could be doing in that 2 minutes.
Note that I said "If we forget this", not 'we do forget this'.

No generalization.
I was more referring to the fact that we become ungrateful, etc...
Surely you can forget it and NOT become that? Or do you have something against people with Alzheimers? [gasp][/shockhorror]
You completely missed the point.
Most likely yes. Sorry.
No need to be sorry. I'm in a bad mood and was being rather short with you.

I was in the wrong.

What I was trying to get across was that as a people, if we loose perspective of how lucky we are, we forget how good we have it. They fought and died so we don't have to. Forget that and every day little things seem like a big deal.
 

Count Igor

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May 5, 2010
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Pirate Kitty said:
No need to be sorry. I'm in a bad mood and was being rather short with you.

I was in the wrong.

What I was trying to get across was that as a people, if we loose perspective of how lucky we are, we forget how good we have it. They fought and died so we don't have to. Forget that and every day little things seem like a big deal.
Ah. Thanks for the explanation, I was just being thick. That does make sense, and I agree with you.

Edit: And no, you were being fine, and in the right here ^^
 

Knusper

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Sep 10, 2010
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I care a lot about Remembrance Day, not that I even know anyone who serves (/has served) on the frontline of war that well. I just feel that they deserve at least 2 minutes of respect and that wounded soldiers and their families should be given as much support as we can give them. It makes me feel good to pay lots for my poppy, I paid £5 last year.
 

SturmDolch

This Title is Ironic
May 17, 2009
2,346
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Remembrance Day isn't just about World War I and II. It's about every war, ever. Remembering the soldiers that gave their lives fighting. Whether it be for someone's definition of freedom, or another's idea of Fascism, or yet another's concept of Communism. While I may not agree at all with one of those three concepts, they were still soldiers. Still people that were sent out by some greater power than them to fight an enemy, or forced to defend their home from being invaded.

Today is for remembering those that believed in a cause so much that they were willing to fight for it. But it is also for remembering those that were given no other choice.

I have no personal investment in this. None of my family has died in a war, except maybe the Napoleonic Wars or previous. Thankfully, Switzerland has been neutral since 1803. None of my family fought in wars. However, my grandfather was prepared to fight the Nazis should they invade.

You can also use today for remembering the civilians. For example, the Swiss civilians that the US bombed during World War II. Or the civilians killed during Vietnam or in Iraq. It's really up to you.

And it's not like it's an all day thing for most people. Just take a moment out of your day to go "huh" and move on. Yes, some people will be having ceremonies. Let them. I see no reason to hate.
 

Boletes Net

New member
Nov 9, 2010
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Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Soldiers don't protect freedom - they just think they do. That's 'The old Lie', of Wilfred Owen's great poem 'Dulce Et Decorum Est'.

In reality they are protecting the military and economic interests of western superpowers.
 

Boletes Net

New member
Nov 9, 2010
166
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Yosharian said:
Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Soldiers don't protect freedom - they just think they do. That's 'The old Lie', of Wilfred Owen's great poem 'Dulce Et Decorum Est'.

In reality they are protecting the military and economic interests of western superpowers.
Ooohhh, so the reason Germany didn't take over the world was not the troops fighting them? They just stopped trying on their own, huh? How odd. You'd think with no defense they'd just walk in and take the country.

Wow.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
13,768
0
0
El Poncho said:
Zhukov said:
Let me put it yet another way. In the year 575 BC the Battle of Yanling took place between the states of Chu and Jin. A whole lot of Chinese guys died "for the freedom of their countries." Do you genuinely care about this? Are you going to commemorate this every year? Are you going to wear a little flower on your shirt? Salute a flag perhaps? Yes? No?
But it isn't my country, or my freedom... If I was chinese I may very well commemorate them every year having been educated about it.

The people you are honouring are the soldiers from your country, who fought for your freedom.
The chinese guys fought for their country and their freedom.
Exactly. You feel no connection to that event. You do not care because those people did not die for you.

That is how I feel about the events that you commemorate.
 

Jamieson 90

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Mar 29, 2010
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I think your view on Rememberence day is somewhat simplistic, Remberence day and the appeals that go along with it such as the Poppy appeal, and Help for Heros appeal is not just about remembering the dead, Both charities work with ex servicement and those injured on the front lines as well as supporting their families etc.

Having said that its always important to show your respect to the dead, especially soldiers who sacrificed themselves to protect you, our country and our freedom. You might disagree with the politics but the Solders are just doing their job and following their orders.
 

Boletes Net

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Nov 9, 2010
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I give money an wear a poppy. It wasn't a couple of soldiers dying for the government, it's millions dying for freedom. If we stop remembering them, we'll forget how lucky we are, we'll be disrespecting their sacrifice and eventually we'll repeat it.
 

Silent observer

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Jun 18, 2009
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Boletes Net said:
I totally agree with you, other than you seem to think that remembering these things will prevent them in the future? which I personally don't agree with...I think thats against human nature and there are way worse sides of humanity yet to come.
I have many, many responses to this thread, most of which contain numerous expletives directed squarely at you.

However, that probably wouldn't be very constructive.

I think the reason remembrance day is so important is that we are remembering the dead of a war which affected literally everyone in the world. It contained completely ordinary people in extraordinary and horrifying circumstances.

Also, I disagree with your comment about remembering things not helping to prevent them - think about what would happen if people were to forget about the holocaust, or the effects of an atomic bomb, for example.

Also, you would not believe the amount of self control it took not to swear at you or insult you once in this post.
 

El Poncho

Techno Hippy will eat your soul!
May 21, 2009
5,891
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Zhukov said:
El Poncho said:
Zhukov said:
Let me put it yet another way. In the year 575 BC the Battle of Yanling took place between the states of Chu and Jin. A whole lot of Chinese guys died "for the freedom of their countries." Do you genuinely care about this? Are you going to commemorate this every year? Are you going to wear a little flower on your shirt? Salute a flag perhaps? Yes? No?
But it isn't my country, or my freedom... If I was chinese I may very well commemorate them every year having been educated about it.

The people you are honouring are the soldiers from your country, who fought for your freedom.
The chinese guys fought for their country and their freedom.
Exactly. You feel no connection to that event. You do not care because those people did not die for you.

That is how I feel about the events that you commemorate.
The difference is that they didn't die for me and the soldiers you feel no connection to you did die for you. Whether you feel it or not.
 

Darkstar370

New member
Nov 5, 2009
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Silent observer said:
Boletes Net said:
I totally agree with you, other than you seem to think that remembering these things will prevent them in the future? which I personally don't agree with...I think thats against human nature and there are way worse sides of humanity yet to come.
I have many, many responses to this thread, most of which contain numerous expletives directed squarely at you.

However, that probably wouldn't be very constructive.

I think the reason remembrance day is so important is that we are remembering the dead of a war which affected literally everyone in the world. It contained completely ordinary people in extraordinary and horrifying circumstances.

Also, I disagree with your comment about remembering things not helping to prevent them - think about what would happen if people were to forget about the holocaust, or the effects of an atomic bomb, for example.

Also, you would not believe the amount of self control it took not to swear at you or insult you once in this post.
Agree.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
-George Santayana
 

Yureina

Who are you?
May 6, 2010
7,098
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I light a candle. That's all I really can do on a personal level. I do feel as if this is one of the more important days of the year however. The people who gave their lives in tragic past conflicts deserve to be remembered.
 

Woodsey

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Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Do you think this is actually remembered by people when they're told to be quiet for 2 minutes for 1 day a year and pay a £1 for a paper poppy?

I'm not disagreeing with your point by the way, just wondering.


HotFezz8 said:
Boletes Net said:
I don't want to appear cold hearted but frankly I don't really care about the dead....they always go on about how soldiers died for us but I pretty sure they died for the government....okay well theres an acception when it comes to WWII.....I still don't really give a shit and i'm not going to wear a poppy so that I can pretend I do :)
then you are a uneducated ****.

(coming from fifth generation military family.)
I thought the military was supposed to instill some sense of maturity?

OT: I get what you're saying, and I don't wear a poppy, but I don't disagree with the idea of it.

Like I said to the first guy/gal I quoted though (kind of) is it actually done for a purpose or just because that's what's done?
 

AngelSword

Castles & Chemo Founder
Oct 19, 2008
245
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Zeithri said:
Do you respect those who just join up to get praise? Because I don't.
I find them disgusting. If you are going to join the army, join it for yourself. Don't join it for others.
Anyone who joins the military for the praise is a) grossly misinformed, and b) doing it for themselves.
 

alloneword

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Jul 9, 2008
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Well here's the thing.

Remembrance Day (or Vets day to those of you in the States) is one of those things that we are made to understand at a very young age. Once the realization of what it actually represents actually kicks in (usually around age 8 or so) then kids usually start to feel saddened by the events that transpired.

From that point on, every year when Remembrance Day comes up, it becomes an exercise in guilt and desensitization. I've sat through so many of those assemblies where people get up and talk about our fallen soldiers and the recite Flander's Fields, that with every year that went by I found myself caring less and less.

Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful to live in a free country and I understand that what those soldiers did allows that to be the case. But declaring a day to set aside hours of the day in which beat us over the head with the information is not helping the cause.

Also: In the U.S., its a civic holiday. Banks and schools are closed. Just think about that for a few minutes.
 

Bucket0Bones

New member
Feb 19, 2009
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The point the man makes at the end of this comic pretty much sums up my thoughts about remembrance day

http://i.imgur.com/30Mb2.gif

I see a few people have made the point earlier in the topic but, if we didn't have remembrance day then younger generations who weren't particularly well educated (which seems to include the OP) would forget the sacrifice that many men and women made.

To say you couldn't care less just seems insensitive and, quite frankly, ignorant to me.
 

maddawg IAJI

I prefer the term "Zomguard"
Feb 12, 2009
7,840
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You mean Armistice day or Veterans day or whatever people are calling it?

Honestly, I like the idea of supporting 'living' troops. I quote the word living because it honestly takes on different forms when it comes to people. I wouldn't mind honoring a soldier fighting in the field right now for our freedom, but I certainly wouldn't blame someone for going to a cemetery and placing flowers on their grave or doing something to remember him.

That soldier may not be alive by definition, but to those people, he is still alive in their memories. I'm lucky to have members of my family in the armed forces and even luckier that nothing has happened to them and I hope that nothing ever does.
 

Boletes Net

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Nov 9, 2010
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AngelSword said:
Zeithri said:
Do you respect those who just join up to get praise? Because I don't.
I find them disgusting. If you are going to join the army, join it for yourself. Don't join it for others.
Anyone who joins the military for the praise is a) grossly misinformed, and b) doing it for themselves.
I see, I tounge-tripped myself unintentionally.
Touché.
 

Boletes Net

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Nov 9, 2010
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Zeeky_Santos said:
7moreDead said:
Boletes Net said:
Pirate Kitty said:
If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Don't we already have that anyway? I mean in the majority....
At least if people are wearing poppies and attending the silence the people that do not know will ask questions...Mainly the younger generations and idiots.

I watched a program the other night that had me pretty shocked about the volunteers lack of knowledge about WW2, so I shudder too think what the people on the show would know about WW1...

I for one am grateful too the dead and the living for not having to goose step about with blonde hair and blue eyes...Damn you Scandinavians!
Like only two people in my class bowed their heads in silence at 11:00 this morning. Me and the Canadian girl. Mind you, most of my class consists of Asians (Taiwanese, Malay, Japanese who had no involvement in WWI) but there's still a few Europeans in there too who didn't do anything. Made me a sad panda.
Wow. That's really rather appalling.

OP: I disagree with you quite catastrophically. I realise that you have a different world view to me and that no-ones wrong here but your writing and avatar suggest to me that you might not have considered the ramifications of the day and military service.

Does it really matter whether what they were doing helped you in any way if the reason they were doing it was because they thought it would?

Picture this, you're a soldier off in some foreign land, attacking people you don't know. You've probably seen or done some horrible things. You might die. You're probably scared. The reason you're here is because you have been lead to believe this will keep your country (more importantly its people and values safe). Wouldn't you want to be remembered? Would you want to hear a teenager saying that no-one cares, that his country has lost its values and that what he is doing achieves nothing good?

Now of course he cannot hear your sentiments, and I am not suggesting we should support war for the sake of people feelings. What I am saying is that the soldiers who have died are no longer active political pawns. They're no longer people doing a job. They're dead, I don't know what you're religion is but to me that's permanence. There is something incredibly sad about permanencies.

To add a cliche':
Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it (or something like that)
I KNOW THATS IRONIC, THATS WHY I WROTE IT
 

Phaerim

New member
Sep 15, 2010
139
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We have conscription in Denmark. Nearly 50% of all male population has served in the military at some point (including myself), and because of that, it isn't as romantic, because everyone really knows how the military works.

We do it because its part of our law, or because its fun, not due to some romantic belief, that we are defending the honor and rights of our country. Those that have romantic viewpoints like that, get sorted away, because its not a very pragmatic way of thinking when in war. It makes you take irrational and emotional decisions.

Since many share that belief in Denmark, we sort of don't worship our military to the same extent that Americans does. We have a flag day, which our Conservative/Liberal government introduced (yes we have that in Denmark, its possible :) ). It was very small, and no one cared.

Honestly, its not like we dislike our soldier or military or anything. It's just that heroes are made by good deeds, not by just signing up for a uniform and a gun. I know a guy who saved a village from a bomber in Afghanistan, and I think he is one of the most awesome people I know. Some of his friends though, do not deserve that credit, and I won't give a general praise to an institution when the result is that any, often conservative, prick can sign up and demand to be called a hero.
 

ffian1

New member
Mar 10, 2010
83
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Akai Shizuku said:
I oppose Remembrance Day, as it is a day for remembering the soldiers who killed and were killed in the name of narrow nationalism and corporate interest. Fuck that shit.

Also, the whole "they died for our freedom" bit is a load of right-wing propaganda.

1) What freedom?
2) Suppose your country got its ass kicked in WW1 and lost out on its imperialist gains, and murdered less indigenous peoples to take over their land and resources than Austria or something. Or suppose the Nazis kicked your country's ass in WW2 and the Soviet Union plowed through them anyway just as they already would have (considering that the USSR was the main force against the Nazis, did most of the fighting, and ultimately were the ones who not only defeated Nazi forces but plowed right through Berlin and put the Soviet flag up on the Reichstag while most other countries fighting the Nazis [INCLUDING YOUR RED WHITE AND BLUE] were little more than a distraction and were considered insignificant by them). What then?

This video made by a friend of mine further explains the position I have on this, particularly current wars.


tl;dr
Remembrance Day is a load of nationalistic propaganda.
You, friend, are a man after my own heart.

War, to me at least, seems to be an extension of evolutionary primal tactics to control more assets e.g. food, women to breed with (evolutionarily speaking) etc. If you consider the amount of assets poured into the notion of war (including self-defense, invasion, time, troops and R&D), does that really outweigh the total cost? If the assets were used for something else beneficial for all - I bet we could feed and clothe the world many, many times over.

The only good thing to come from war in general is the R&D, allowing for some incredible advances in machinery and computation - but again, if assets were used to fund this sort of thing more often anyway then you completely eliminate the whole notion of war.

Personally, I don't support Remembrance Day. If anyone cares enough to remember them, they should do it every day to be thankful. The idea of relegating the supposed importance of remembrance to a single day devalues everything about it anyway.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
13,768
0
0
El Poncho said:
Zhukov said:
Exactly. You feel no connection to that event. You do not care because those people did not die for you.

That is how I feel about the events that you commemorate.
The difference is that they didn't die for me and the soldiers you feel no connection to you did die for you. Whether you feel it or not.
Did they really?

Consider the following.

I am Australian. Australian soldiers have been involved in the Boer War, WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Malayan Emergency, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, the war in Iraq and the war in Afghanistan. Plus a few UN peacekeeping operations and regional assistance missions. Not one of these conflicts involved a direct threat to Australia. (The one possible exception was the Japanese in WWII, but we have since learned that they had no intention of invading us.) Australia became involved in every single one of these conflicts at the behest of other nations. Furthermore, our contributions to these conflicts were negligible in scale and of no real consequence.

In short, the "freedom of my country" was never under threat. And if it was, the actions of Australian soldiers were neither necessary nor relevant in securing said freedom.

So... how exactly did they die for me?
 

rwllay

New member
Oct 9, 2009
68
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i share my birthday with rememberence day, so i always think it gives me some perspective. also i respect anyone willing to risk their life, for a cause they believe in(wether i believe in it or not), whether it be king and country, religion, ideology or whatever.
 

El Poncho

Techno Hippy will eat your soul!
May 21, 2009
5,891
0
0
Zhukov said:
El Poncho said:
Zhukov said:
Exactly. You feel no connection to that event. You do not care because those people did not die for you.

That is how I feel about the events that you commemorate.
The difference is that they didn't die for me and the soldiers you feel no connection to you did die for you. Whether you feel it or not.
Did they really?

Consider the following.

I am Australian. Australian soldiers have been involved in the Boer War, WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Malayan Emergency, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, the war in Iraq and the war in Afghanistan. Plus a few UN peacekeeping operations and regional assistance missions. Not one of these conflicts involved a direct threat to Australia. (The one possible exception was the Japanese in WWII, but we have since learned that they had no intention of invading us.) Australia became involved in every single one of these conflicts at the behest of other nations. Furthermore, our contributions to these conflicts were negligible in scale and of no real consequence.

In short, the "freedom of my country" was never under threat. And if it was, the actions of Australian soldiers were neither necessary nor relevant in securing said freedom.

So... how exactly did they die for me?
Fair enough, I probably should have checked your country.
 

Boletes Net

New member
Nov 9, 2010
166
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Pirate Kitty said:
Ooohhh, so the reason Germany didn't take over the world was not the troops fighting them? They just stopped trying on their own, huh? How odd. You'd think with no defense they'd just walk in and take the country.
Such a complex war cannot be reduced to such simplistic ideas.
 

Akai Shizuku

New member
Jul 24, 2009
3,183
0
0
ffian1 said:
Akai Shizuku said:
I oppose Remembrance Day, as it is a day for remembering the soldiers who killed and were killed in the name of narrow nationalism and corporate interest. Fuck that shit.

Also, the whole "they died for our freedom" bit is a load of right-wing propaganda.

1) What freedom?
2) Suppose your country got its ass kicked in WW1 and lost out on its imperialist gains, and murdered less indigenous peoples to take over their land and resources than Austria or something. Or suppose the Nazis kicked your country's ass in WW2 and the Soviet Union plowed through them anyway just as they already would have (considering that the USSR was the main force against the Nazis, did most of the fighting, and ultimately were the ones who not only defeated Nazi forces but plowed right through Berlin and put the Soviet flag up on the Reichstag while most other countries fighting the Nazis [INCLUDING YOUR RED WHITE AND BLUE] were little more than a distraction and were considered insignificant by them). What then?

This video made by a friend of mine further explains the position I have on this, particularly current wars.


tl;dr
Remembrance Day is a load of nationalistic propaganda.
You, friend, are a man after my own heart.

War, to me at least, seems to be an extension of evolutionary primal tactics to control more assets e.g. food, women to breed with (evolutionarily speaking) etc. If you consider the amount of assets poured into the notion of war (including self-defense, invasion, time, troops and R&D), does that really outweigh the total cost? If the assets were used for something else beneficial for all - I bet we could feed and clothe the world many, many times over.

The only good thing to come from war in general is the R&D, allowing for some incredible advances in machinery and computation - but again, if assets were used to fund this sort of thing more often anyway then you completely eliminate the whole notion of war.

Personally, I don't support Remembrance Day. If anyone cares enough to remember them, they should do it every day to be thankful. The idea of relegating the supposed importance of remembrance to a single day devalues everything about it anyway.
Mostly agreed except for your first and last points. As for your first point, I don't think it has anything to do with evolution; what it has to do with is economics. The big corporations which influence the government benefit from war because the government buys their equipment for the war. So, yes, capitalism is a driving force behind war because of the profit motive. That isn't all of it, though - there is also imperialism; that is, A first world country turning a third world country into what it is through raping of their land and resources militarily (as the U.$. is doing in Haiti, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.) or through corporate exploitation (sweat shops, etc. in countries like the Philippines, China and Malaysia where eight-year-old kids make your clothes and pretty much everything else you own while working 24-hour shifts and getting paid peanuts - but according to capitalist-supporters, that's they're fault, right?). Usually the former happens first and evolves into the latter.

Essentially, you do away with capitalism, you do away with a lot of war.

For your last point, whether or not the soldiers deserve to be remembered depends on who they were fighting and what they were fighting for. As Mao Zedong said, "To die for the people is weightier than Mount Tai, but to work for the fascists and die for the exploiters and oppressors is lighter than a feather."

Mao said it better than I could. Sauce is <url=http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-3/mswv3_19.htm>here.
 

EscapeGoat_v1legacy

New member
Aug 20, 2008
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I wear a poppy with pride, and I wear one every day. My remembrance does extend past one day, but for many, that one day is enough, and they do remember the fallen, which is always commendable. I wear it to honour those who fell for God, for the crown and for their country. Ever since I returned from a visit to the First World War graves in Belgium, and walked across the battlefields of France, I have felt the need to give the utmost respect to every man and women who has died protecting ideals like freedom, and in turn give that respect to the fighting men and women who do something that I could not.

To see you say you're apathetic towards the dead fills me with a cold feeling. Its a shame for you to think that the soldiers who have died, and the soldiers still out there didn't fight for you, or get injured for you or died for you, and for all people who value the same ideals that they fought and died for.

However, in the end, nothing I say will change your mind. Perhaps you need to visit a memorial or a monument, or take a trip to France or Belgium, or anywhere soldiers have fought since the First World War. I'm not a fan of war, but I do remember, and I do pay my respects.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
NekoiHiokans said:
Just wanted to say, that video was incredible. Really powerful, and really poignant. I may be British, but that resonates as much with me and our own soldiers as it does with America and her soldiers. Thank you for posting that.
 

Darkstar370

New member
Nov 5, 2009
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Akai Shizuku said:
Essentially, you do away with capitalism, you do away with a lot of war.

For your last point, whether or not the soldiers deserve to be remembered depends on who they were fighting and what they were fighting for. As Mao Zedong said, "To die for the people is weightier than Mount Tai, but to work for the fascists and die for the exploiters and oppressors is lighter than a feather."
I hope you do realize that Mao is believed to have caused the deaths of between 40 to 70 million people.
 

Akai Shizuku

New member
Jul 24, 2009
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Darkstar370 said:
Akai Shizuku said:
Essentially, you do away with capitalism, you do away with a lot of war.

For your last point, whether or not the soldiers deserve to be remembered depends on who they were fighting and what they were fighting for. As Mao Zedong said, "To die for the people is weightier than Mount Tai, but to work for the fascists and die for the exploiters and oppressors is lighter than a feather."
I hope you do realize that Mao is believed to have caused the deaths of between 40 to 70 million people.
I hope you do realize (as anyone with half a brain should) that those numbers simply do not add up.


Forward to 2:39 for the Mao part. Also this:

 

Darkstar370

New member
Nov 5, 2009
117
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0
Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
Akai Shizuku said:
Essentially, you do away with capitalism, you do away with a lot of war.

For your last point, whether or not the soldiers deserve to be remembered depends on who they were fighting and what they were fighting for. As Mao Zedong said, "To die for the people is weightier than Mount Tai, but to work for the fascists and die for the exploiters and oppressors is lighter than a feather."
I hope you do realize that Mao is believed to have caused the deaths of between 40 to 70 million people.
I hope you do realize (as anyone with half a brain should) that those numbers simply do not add up.

-snip-

Forward to 2:39 for the Mao part. Also this:
-snip-
I like how the comments were disabled on the first video that you posted.

Typical communists. They always censor those who disagree with them.

I'm thankful for the brave people that fought against communism.
My country was liberated in 1989 from their tyranny. I know more about them than you.
 

Zykon TheLich

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 20, 2020
2,665
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Country
UK
I don't wear a poppy but I do give the poppy sellers some money. Fighting in the 1st and 2nd world wars must have been a full on bag of shit and I feel for anyone who's had to go through that. I was watching an interview with Harry Patch (R.I.P) a couple of years ago he still broke doen in tears describing how his mates got blown up by an artillery shell. Regardless of all the political issues the soldiers were all individuals that for the most psrt went through a load of horrible crap that I never want to experience.
 

Akai Shizuku

New member
Jul 24, 2009
3,183
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Darkstar370 said:
Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
Akai Shizuku said:
Essentially, you do away with capitalism, you do away with a lot of war.

For your last point, whether or not the soldiers deserve to be remembered depends on who they were fighting and what they were fighting for. As Mao Zedong said, "To die for the people is weightier than Mount Tai, but to work for the fascists and die for the exploiters and oppressors is lighter than a feather."
I hope you do realize that Mao is believed to have caused the deaths of between 40 to 70 million people.
I hope you do realize (as anyone with half a brain should) that those numbers simply do not add up.

-snip-

Forward to 2:39 for the Mao part. Also this:
-snip-
I like how the comments were disabled on the first video that you posted.

Typical communists. They always censor those who disagree with them.
Censorship is blocking comments that disagree with the video and allowing others to stay up. The guy who made the first video just didn't want shit to deal with, since every YouTube video about anything political is going to have loads of bullshit troll comments.

Darkstar370 said:
I'm thankful for the brave people that fought against communism.
My country was liberated in 1989 from their tyranny. I know more about them than you.
LOL

The Soviet Union wasn't socialist ever since Stalin died. First it fell into revisionism, and then it was social-imperialist; essentially, it took over other countries much like the U.$. did and used those countries' people and resources to fuel their empire. That's actually a very anti-communist way to go about things, and if you knew a thing about communist ideology you'd know that.
 

ffian1

New member
Mar 10, 2010
83
0
0
Akai Shizuku said:
Mostly agreed except for your first and last points. As for your first point, I don't think it has anything to do with evolution; what it has to do with is economics. The big corporations which influence the government benefit from war because the government buys their equipment for the war. So, yes, capitalism is a driving force behind war because of the profit motive. That isn't all of it, though - there is also imperialism; that is, A first world country turning a third world country into what it is through raping of their land and resources militarily (as the U.$. is doing in Haiti, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.) or through corporate exploitation (sweat shops, etc. in countries like the Philippines, China and Malaysia where eight-year-old kids make your clothes and pretty much everything else you own while working 24-hour shifts and getting paid peanuts - but according to capitalist-supporters, that's they're fault, right?). Usually the former happens first and evolves into the latter.

Essentially, you do away with capitalism, you do away with a lot of war.

For your last point, whether or not the soldiers deserve to be remembered depends on who they were fighting and what they were fighting for. As Mao Zedong said, "To die for the people is weightier than Mount Tai, but to work for the fascists and die for the exploiters and oppressors is lighter than a feather."

Mao said it better than I could. Sauce is <url=http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-3/mswv3_19.htm>here.
With regards to my last point, I didn't necessarily mean soldiers, but anything potentially worth remembering. There are several things that I hold personally dear, and show that by devoting a few moments throughout the day to remembering them. If I reduced that to naming a day after them, and thinking about them for a minute in the morning of that day, I'd feel it would cheapen the whole process. Regardless of whether it's right or wrong to remember the soldiers, it still offends me that people are so upset when I disagree with their process of remembrance.

And to the first point, I feel that capitalism is essentially a name given to the acquisition of assets - really just a modern interpretation of instinctual behaviour. This, as you rightly pointed out, has been tainted by a corporate element.

As far as I can tell, evolving mentally (i.e. being responsible for our own behaviours) should become something of a priority for all humanity. If we can grow out of our need to acquire things to set us in a situation of higher community status than another, we can all get busy with the things in life that are really important.
 

Darkstar370

New member
Nov 5, 2009
117
0
0
Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
Typical communists. They always censor those who disagree with them.
Censorship is blocking comments that disagree with the video and allowing others to stay up. The guy who made the first video just didn't want shit to deal with, since every YouTube video about anything political is going to have loads of bullshit troll comments.
Typical weak excuses. The guy believes that people who disagree with him = trolls

Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
I'm thankful for the brave people that fought against communism.
My country was liberated in 1989 from their tyranny. I know more about them than you.
LOL

The Soviet Union wasn't socialist ever since Stalin died. First it fell into revisionism, and then it was social-imperialist; essentially, it took over other countries much like the U.$. did and used those countries' people and resources to fuel their empire. That's actually a very anti-communist way to go about things, and if you knew a thing about communist ideology you'd know that.
LOL

You know even less than I thought. Stalin was a psychopathic mass murderer. And so was Lenin. Communism never worked in any country.
 

Akai Shizuku

New member
Jul 24, 2009
3,183
0
0
Darkstar370 said:
Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
Typical communists. They always censor those who disagree with them.
Censorship is blocking comments that disagree with the video and allowing others to stay up. The guy who made the first video just didn't want shit to deal with, since every YouTube video about anything political is going to have loads of bullshit troll comments.
Typical weak excuses. The guy believes that people who disagree with him = trolls

Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
I'm thankful for the brave people that fought against communism.
My country was liberated in 1989 from their tyranny. I know more about them than you.
LOL

The Soviet Union wasn't socialist ever since Stalin died. First it fell into revisionism, and then it was social-imperialist; essentially, it took over other countries much like the U.$. did and used those countries' people and resources to fuel their empire. That's actually a very anti-communist way to go about things, and if you knew a thing about communist ideology you'd know that.
LOL

You know even less than I thought. Stalin was a psychopathic mass murderer. And so was Lenin. Communism never worked in any country.
A lot of that "Stalin was a mass murderer" stuff comes from propaganda first put forth by the Nazis and later by Amerika. I've already posted videos which show why the whole "Stalin was a killer" argument is incorrect. As for communist ideology never working everywhere, it actually worked pretty well in the Soviet Union and China. It's also the only reason why Cuba hasn't collapsed under the U.$. embargo.

Since you seem to be focused on the Soviet Union and your hatred towards it, I'll just provide a little picture.

http://media.eyeblast.org/newsbusters/static/2009/10/NewsweekRussia-full-2009-10-12.jpg
 

Darkstar370

New member
Nov 5, 2009
117
0
0
Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
Typical communists. They always censor those who disagree with them.
Censorship is blocking comments that disagree with the video and allowing others to stay up. The guy who made the first video just didn't want shit to deal with, since every YouTube video about anything political is going to have loads of bullshit troll comments.
Typical weak excuses. The guy believes that people who disagree with him = trolls

Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
I'm thankful for the brave people that fought against communism.
My country was liberated in 1989 from their tyranny. I know more about them than you.
LOL

The Soviet Union wasn't socialist ever since Stalin died. First it fell into revisionism, and then it was social-imperialist; essentially, it took over other countries much like the U.$. did and used those countries' people and resources to fuel their empire. That's actually a very anti-communist way to go about things, and if you knew a thing about communist ideology you'd know that.
LOL

You know even less than I thought. Stalin was a psychopathic mass murderer. And so was Lenin. Communism never worked in any country.
A lot of that "Stalin was a mass murderer" stuff comes from propaganda first put forth by the Nazis and later by Amerika. I've already posted videos which show why the whole "Stalin was a killer" argument is incorrect. As for communist ideology never working everywhere, it actually worked pretty well in the Soviet Union and China. It's also the only reason why Cuba hasn't collapsed under the U.$. embargo.
A lot of that "Stalin wasn't a mass murderer" stuff comes from propaganda first put forth by the communists and later by ignorant people like in the video that you posted.

Stalin murdered and schemed his way to the leadership of the Soviet Union, an entity that he helped to establish with the other leading Bolsheviks.

Stalin was responsible for the purges and power consolidations that left the USSR militarily weakened when Nazi Germany invaded on June 22, 1941. Fortunately "General Winter" stepped in to save his butt. Prior to World War II, Stalin had many of his best generals and spies shot. Stalin was deeply paranoid and more concerned about the Red Army's loyalty to him alone than their effectiveness as a professional military force. Unfortunately, he did not apply the same distrust to Hitler, his ally from 1939-41: while he did realize that Europe wasn't big enough for two bloodthirsty megalomaniacs, he ignored several warnings about an impending German invasion, thinking he still had more time before the inevitable showdown. As with Hitler, Stalin's personal involvement in military decisions proved disastrous. Many Soviet armies, totaling several million men, were surrounded and destroyed at the outset of the war because they were forbidden from retreating. However, unlike Hitler, Stalin learned to trust his generals as time went by and granted them more leeway. Between the Russian winter, Russian mud, Hitler's incompetence, and the fact that Russians were bull-headed enough to do anything, the USSR managed to survive and beat back Hitler's armies. (Stalin had all of the POWs the Germans had taken shot or sent them to Siberia as spies.)

Stalinism, Uncle Joe's legacy to the world, is a ruthless approach to communism that relies heavily on an all-powerful supreme leader aided by a large body of secret police who "encourage" neighbor to inform on neighbor, purges of any potential adversary to the supreme leader (with emphasis on the comrades who helped him achieve his position in the first place), the imprisonment and murder of intellectuals (liberals), and the occasional mass murder of entire portions of the population. Stalinism also covers the particular approach to economic development which Stalin pursued during his rule. It relies on complete state control and central planning of all economic activity and tries to achieve rapid development of the nation's heavy industry. The Soviet Union did indeed see rapid industrial growth under the first five-year-plans, but this came at a heavy price: the necessary capital had to be somehow squeezed out of an agrarian society, adding to the misery of Soviet peasants. Forced collectivization and resistance to it resulted in millions of deaths and a huge drop in Soviet agricultural production, which in turn led to the famines of the 1930s.
 

Akai Shizuku

New member
Jul 24, 2009
3,183
0
0
Darkstar370 said:
Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
Typical communists. They always censor those who disagree with them.
Censorship is blocking comments that disagree with the video and allowing others to stay up. The guy who made the first video just didn't want shit to deal with, since every YouTube video about anything political is going to have loads of bullshit troll comments.
Typical weak excuses. The guy believes that people who disagree with him = trolls

Akai Shizuku said:
Darkstar370 said:
I'm thankful for the brave people that fought against communism.
My country was liberated in 1989 from their tyranny. I know more about them than you.
LOL

The Soviet Union wasn't socialist ever since Stalin died. First it fell into revisionism, and then it was social-imperialist; essentially, it took over other countries much like the U.$. did and used those countries' people and resources to fuel their empire. That's actually a very anti-communist way to go about things, and if you knew a thing about communist ideology you'd know that.
LOL

You know even less than I thought. Stalin was a psychopathic mass murderer. And so was Lenin. Communism never worked in any country.
A lot of that "Stalin was a mass murderer" stuff comes from propaganda first put forth by the Nazis and later by Amerika. I've already posted videos which show why the whole "Stalin was a killer" argument is incorrect. As for communist ideology never working everywhere, it actually worked pretty well in the Soviet Union and China. It's also the only reason why Cuba hasn't collapsed under the U.$. embargo.
A lot of that "Stalin wasn't a mass murderer" stuff comes from propaganda first put forth by the communists and later by ignorant people like in the video that you posted.

Stalin murdered and schemed his way to the leadership of the Soviet Union, an entity that he helped to establish with the other leading Bolsheviks.

Stalin was responsible for the purges and power consolidations that left the USSR militarily weakened when Nazi Germany invaded on June 22, 1941. Fortunately "General Winter" stepped in to save his butt. Prior to World War II, Stalin had many of his best generals and spies shot. Stalin was deeply paranoid and more concerned about the Red Army's loyalty to him alone than their effectiveness as a professional military force. Unfortunately, he did not apply the same distrust to Hitler, his ally from 1939-41: while he did realize that Europe wasn't big enough for two bloodthirsty megalomaniacs, he ignored several warnings about an impending German invasion, thinking he still had more time before the inevitable showdown. As with Hitler, Stalin's personal involvement in military decisions proved disastrous. Many Soviet armies, totaling several million men, were surrounded and destroyed at the outset of the war because they were forbidden from retreating. However, unlike Hitler, Stalin learned to trust his generals as time went by and granted them more leeway. Between the Russian winter, Russian mud, Hitler's incompetence, and the fact that Russians were bull-headed enough to do anything, the USSR managed to survive and beat back Hitler's armies. (Stalin had all of the POWs the Germans had taken shot or sent them to Siberia as spies.)

Stalinism, Uncle Joe's legacy to the world, is a ruthless approach to communism that relies heavily on an all-powerful supreme leader aided by a large body of secret police who "encourage" neighbor to inform on neighbor, purges of any potential adversary to the supreme leader (with emphasis on the comrades who helped him achieve his position in the first place), the imprisonment and murder of intellectuals (liberals), and the occasional mass murder of entire portions of the population. Stalinism also covers the particular approach to economic development which Stalin pursued during his rule. It relies on complete state control and central planning of all economic activity and tries to achieve rapid development of the nation's heavy industry. The Soviet Union did indeed see rapid industrial growth under the first five-year-plans, but this came at a heavy price: the necessary capital had to be somehow squeezed out of an agrarian society, adding to the misery of Soviet peasants. Forced collectivization and resistance to it resulted in millions of deaths and a huge drop in Soviet agricultural production, which in turn led to the famines of the 1930s.
Almost everything you said here has already been refuted in the videos I posted in previous posts within this thread. I'll post one more.


This will be my last post within this thread, because quite frankly I'm tired of arguing with people who don't know what they're talking about. Stalin was a hero whose collectivization ended the Ukraine famine, turned a 3rd world shithole into a world superpower to rival the imperialist United $nakes, and led the Red Army to destroy the Nazis.
 

Darkstar370

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Nov 5, 2009
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Akai Shizuku said:
Almost everything you said here has already been refuted in the videos I posted in previous posts within this thread. I'll post one more.

-snip-
Almost everything posted here by you has already been revealed as lousy communist propaganda from people who censor youtube comments.

Akai Shizuku said:
This will be my last post within this thread, because quite frankly I'm tired of arguing with people who don't know what they're talking about.
Why are all communists such cowards when they are confronted with the truth?
 

ilspooner

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Apr 13, 2010
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I like to respect the people who never made it back home after those horrible years. No matter who they fought for, they made the same sacrifice.
 

Phaerim

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Sep 15, 2010
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Well to simplify, it's because of the attitude of people like HotFezz8, that I don't revere military holidays. I can't be asked to revere people who can't face critiscism, and I am glad that the moderators reacted as they did.