How do you feel about remembrance day?

El Poncho

Techno Hippy will eat your soul!
May 21, 2009
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Zhukov said:
Eh, not a lot.



As for all those past soldiers "who died to protect my freedom"... well, that's bullshit. Those soldiers never knew me and they sure as hell didn't die for me. They died for all sorts of reasons. Many of them barely had any idea why they were dying. Many of them died because someone in a big hat told them to. Many of them were conscripts who probably didn't even want to be there in the first place.
They did die to protect your freedom. Maybe they didn't know they were fighting for your specific freedom, but they were fighting for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced to sign up but in the end they were still fighting for the freedom of their country and other countries at the same time. So some joined to fight for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced but the outcome was the same, freedom for their country. Some didn't know what they were dying for but they were still dying for it, and this is why we honour them.

It is very selfish to think dying for you means specifically for you.
 
Sep 9, 2010
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dex-dex said:
people who do not learn about history they are doomed to repeat it.
This is true. And aren't those who died [art of history? And if you cannot look at those graves of the soldiers and say "You did absolutely nothing and I don't respect you" then I urge you to give it a little more thought. (Where do you guys all live? In America today is Veterans day. I assume it's similar.)
junkmanuk said:
Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Pirate Kitty has summed up quite well.

My less eloquent answer would be 'you're a selfish jackass with an entitlement complex who doesn't understand the pain felt by many people whose children AT YOUR AGE were thrust into a war with a huge chance of death in order to defend the rights and freedoms that you enjoy today.'

You can thank your deity that war has changed sufficiently that you will never experience what they did, and we have a duty to remember these things so that future generations will not make the same mistakes.
This kinda sums up how I feel. Anyone who will lay down their live for a cause is deserving of respect, let alone someone who laid down their life for YOU and YOUR freedoms. And do you think it wouldn't be a nanny state if, say the Germans won? Essentially the whole of Europe would be their empire and do you think you could say ANYTHING that was even slightly out of line? Could you vote? Would there even be a chance for you to improve your life? Just ponder these questions.
 

Trivun

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Dec 13, 2008
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Well, my late grandfather was in WW2, though as far as I'm aware he didn't actually do any fighting, he was a sailor in the Royal Navy and he could easily have ended up in a combat situation. My late uncle was a journalist who reported from various places around the world for British newspapers, including warzones. He was actually in Israel, or Palestine (not sure which), eating his breakfast at a cafe when some firefight started, and he was right in the middle of it. He was exceptionally lucky to get away without any wounds, let alone alive. Oh, for the record, both my relatives died peacefully at home or hospital, of illness rather than war. Just so's you know.

Anyway, I have the utmost respect for British troops, regardless of my feelings about the war. I disagree entirely with us being in Iraq and Afghanistan (thank you, Bush and Blair, you absolute retarded jackasses...). But I also realise that to pull out now would be more stupid, because the problems over there still need to be fixed (regardless of how they were caused in the first place). Removing troops would just be a sign of weakness and allow insurgents to win, effectively. We need to stay there at least for the time being to try and get those countries troops trained and ready to fight for themselves.

Anyway, regardless of my feelings on the war, I have nothing but admiration for the troops themselves, putting their lives on the line constantly because they care about their country and about defending this great nation. I went to Florida on holiday a few years ago, and at every theme park we went to, every event that happened, US soldiers and their families were given free or discount entry and made to feel really welcome. And you know what? This wasn't just US troops. The same courtesy extended to the troops and families of troops from the UK, Australia, and all the other Allied countries fighting together in warzones like Iraq and Afghanistan. And those troops, al the Allies, were always thanked and singled out for praise everywhere (they had a special thing at Seaworld in the Shamu show specifically giving thanks to Allied troops, both US forces and others). You never see anything like that in the UK, the most anyone ever does as a sign of respect to our troops is when people line the streets in Wooten Basset when they bring the bodies of fallen soldiers home. And that's only the locals, and families and friends of the dead, who ever do that (well, I guess there may be a rare few exceptions...).

No-one in this country seems to care anymore about our troops, and it's not because they don't agree with the soldiers themselves, but purely because they don't like the idea of the war or the government. That's just a completely stupid way of looking at things. A soldier does what he or she does for the love of serving their country. They don't have a say in where they're sent or what wars they fight in, they just have to follow orders. Does that mean that if they die in battle, they aren't worthy of our respect or time? No. That's just selfish of us. So I'm going to proudly wear my poppy to work tonight, and when I'm in town tomorrow, and when I'm watching the local rugby team play on Sunday I'll be standing in that stadium with a poppy adorning my shirt. Because whether I agree with the government or not, I certainly agree with the soldiers, and they are certainly most deserving of our respect.
 

Pariah87

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Having a Granfather and several of his brothers fight in WWII, I was brought up to have a solemn respect for the events of all wars, and for those who never made it home.

It's easy to sit here now, at a computer screen and say you don't give a shit, the past is the past and all that shit, because our lives are so very different now. We forget that had these events not transpired then we'd be living in a very different reality today. Perhaps not America as much as those living in Europe. Had Hitler succeeded then Britain was to be turned into one big island concentration camp for example. A far cry from what the country has turned out to be today.

Another reason to remember is the tradgedy of the events. I'm sure many Americans observed the silence for 9/11? I didn't personally nor did any other Brit I know, simply because the tradgedy wasn't aimed at us, so we see it with an outside perspective which doesn't contain the sting which it still holds for many Americans, at least the ones I've known personally. At the Somme, 200,000 men died in the first hour. That's 4/5 of the population of my town, wiped out in 60 minutes. The town of Ypres was bombarded flat by artillery. Wounds were inflicted apon Western Europe both physically and mentally, leaving scars and markers which are still visible today.

Yes, the dead are dead, yes, we can't change the events of the past, but is to even remember or give a passing grain of respect to these events really so silly, or too much effort?

Veterans and other loved ones are remembered on a daily basis by those who knew them, it's not about putting them aside for 364/365 days a year. The one day is a marker, the end point of WWI, so that as a nation we can pay our respects in unison, to those of all nations in all wars who fell in the name of senseless conflict.

The attitude of the OP, to me at least, sums up everything which is wrong with this up and comming generation and frankly it sickens me. To simply not care at all? Perhaps that is the problem, we simply don't give a shit anymore about anything but ourselves.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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Ekit said:
Just out of curiosity, what did the soldiers do to lose your respect?
It wasn't so much what they did, but rather what they were.

First off, I got some insight into how the army operates. Modern military training is designed to condition soldiers to obey orders without question. And it is very effective. I underwent the training myself. After about a month of it, if a corporal had ran into my bedroom in the middle of the night and ordered me to do a handstand in my pyjamas, I would have done so without hesitation. If that same corporal had ordered me to drag a wounded man while under fire, I would have done that too. Not because I wanted to, or because I gave a damn, but because I had been psychologically conditioned over an extended period of time to obey without question. My point is, getting all sentimental about the brave stuff that soldiers do is like getting sentimental about your oven cooking your dinner every night.

Secondly, I came to the realisation that soldiers are just people. (Yes, I know, that sounds rather dumb in retrospect.) Furthermore, many of them are brash, arrogant young males without education or intelligence. The kind of people I do not particularly like. I'm not going to suddenly start hero-worshipping them because they put on green pants and start waving rifles around.

Lastly, I noticed that many soldiers (especially the aforementioned young males) had a rather unsavoury... eagerness to see action. And not in a "I want to protect my country" sort of way. They were eager to live out the hollywood hero fantasy. Y'know, the kind of thing that you might see in your average military-themed first person shooter video game. I asked one fellow why he joined up and he replied, "I want to see explosions and kill ragheads."

...

That probably sounds a bit harsh. Many of the soldiers I met were very professional and seemed like decent people. Especially the older and more experienced ones. But when all is said and done, if a person has willingly chosen a profession that is all about killing people (or at least facilitating the killing of people) then they are either a brute, an idiot or a stooge. (*equips flameshield*) I can recognise that, our world being the way that it is, such people are necessary. But I don't really want anything to do with them and I'm certainly not about to start worshipping them.

(Wow. This post ended waaaaay longer then intended. Oh well.)
 

Sparrow

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Feb 22, 2009
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Boletes Net said:
I don't want to appear cold hearted but frankly I don't really care about the dead....they always go on about how soldiers died for us but I pretty sure they died for the government....okay well theres an acception when it comes to WWII.....I still don't really give a shit and i'm not going to wear a poppy so that I can pretend I do :)
Sheesh, man. Atleast pretend to care. What you said is equiviliant to "well, people with cancer didn't do anything for me so screw them".
 

Akai Shizuku

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Jul 24, 2009
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I oppose Remembrance Day, as it is a day for remembering the soldiers who killed and were killed in the name of narrow nationalism and corporate interest. Fuck that shit.

Also, the whole "they died for our freedom" bit is a load of right-wing propaganda.

1) What freedom?
2) Suppose your country got its ass kicked in WW1 and lost out on its imperialist gains, and murdered less indigenous peoples to take over their land and resources than Austria or something. Or suppose the Nazis kicked your country's ass in WW2 and the Soviet Union plowed through them anyway just as they already would have (considering that the USSR was the main force against the Nazis, did most of the fighting, and ultimately were the ones who not only defeated Nazi forces but plowed right through Berlin and put the Soviet flag up on the Reichstag while most other countries fighting the Nazis [INCLUDING YOUR RED WHITE AND BLUE] were little more than a distraction and were considered insignificant by them). What then?

This video made by a friend of mine further explains the position I have on this, particularly current wars.


tl;dr
Remembrance Day is a load of nationalistic propaganda.
 

Cgull

Behind You
Oct 31, 2009
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The poppy, hell, remembrance day itself has got sod all to do with whether the soldiers fighting knew what they were fighting for or why, the fact is that they were out there protecting the way of life they knew and loved (I'm specifically referring to World Wars here, there have been others but these are the ones everyone thinks of) as well as the lives/livelihoods of the people back home.

It's not to glorify war or create a political issue, it's to remember and give thanks to those that were dying in horrendous conditions so that others wouldn't.

To say 'they didn't die for me specifically'is a true (if not a fairly selfish) statement, but then I wouldn't die for any of you either, I would die to protect my loved ones and my way of life which is all these servicemen were doing at the time.

That said, if you disagree, don't buy a Poppy and enjoy the freedom of not doing so.

TL:DR - Remembrance day is not a political issue about whether war is right or wrong, it's about the sacrifices others have made on your behalf. Don't support it if you don't want, but don't try to tell me it's because 'they didn't die for me'.
 

Simon Hadow

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Mar 12, 2009
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I hold it up as a semi-important holiday, if only to remember that, if we don't remember the sacrifices that others made, if not "For" us, then in our name, that we become ignorant, entitled slobs. But, my one friend, for him it's more important than Christmas. He was raised on a military base for the first 10 years of his life, and his dad was on the frontlines in multiple peace-keeping missions, and saw alot of combat. He was raised aathiast, so christmas had no spirtual signifigance to him, and never liked his extended family, so they didn't visit relatives then. But Remembrance day is probably the most important day of the year for them, if only because of his dad's emotional investment.

And as a note to everyone who says that Remebrance day is unimportant because it's about soldiers who were TOLD they were dying for their family, but were really dying in the name of nationalism, or propaganda, or whatever your particular breed of head-up-your-ass conspiracy theory is, the soldiers didn't die for capatilism, or nationalism, or government. In their minds, they died for us. Or at least, for the future of their country. Disrespecting them because they were manipulated doesn't make you a revolutionist, or even a rebel. It makes you an ungrateful jerk, who thinks thinks that people who died at least trying to fight for freedom don't deserve thanks because they were brainwashed by "Higher Up's" in Washington, or Moscow, or wherever the head of the snake lies for a particular army.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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El Poncho said:
Zhukov said:
[snipped to save space]
They did die to protect your freedom. Maybe they didn't know they were fighting for your specific freedom, but they were fighting for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced to sign up but in the end they were still fighting for the freedom of their country and other countries at the same time. So some joined to fight for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced but the outcome was the same, freedom for their country. Some didn't know what they were dying for but they were still dying for it, and this is why we honour them.

It is very selfish to think dying for you means specifically for you.
Okay, let me put this another way. A whole lot of guys ran around killing each other and dying all over the place. This we know to be true. Now, let us assume that they died "for the freedom of their country". So... why exactly am I personally expected to care about this?

....

No, wait. That doesn't work either. That just makes me sound like a apathetic brat.

...

Let me put it yet another way. In the year 575 BC the Battle of Yanling took place between the states of Chu and Jin. A whole lot of Chinese guys died "for the freedom of their countries." Do you genuinely care about this? Are you going to commemorate this every year? Are you going to wear a little flower on your shirt? Salute a flag perhaps? Yes? No?
 

Count Igor

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May 5, 2010
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Pirate Kitty said:
Count Igor said:
Pirate Kitty said:
Count Igor said:
Pirate Kitty said:
We remember not just the soldiers or what they did - we remember what needed to be done to (in an idealist's mind) protect freedom and home.

If we forget this, we become ungrateful, spoiled, and loose sense of just how bloody amazingly lucky and privileged we are.
Do we?
That's generalising a fair bit :D

Anyway, I buy the poppy and wear it, but I know many things I could be doing in that 2 minutes.
Note that I said "If we forget this", not 'we do forget this'.

No generalization.
I was more referring to the fact that we become ungrateful, etc...
Surely you can forget it and NOT become that? Or do you have something against people with Alzheimers? [gasp][/shockhorror]
You completely missed the point.
Most likely yes. Sorry.
 

Simon Hadow

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Mar 12, 2009
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blue_guy said:
If you want to respect someone, respect them while they are alive.
Great idea! I'll go whip up some Necromancy potions right now, so I can shake a WWI Vets hand!
Okay, so the sarcasm is maybe uncalled for, but Remebrance day is to honor those that you CAN'T directly say thank you to.Because they're either in another country, or dead. You can shake a living veterans hand any day, Rememberance day reminds us that there are those who DIED to (At least, in their minds) protect their countries freedom.
 

El Poncho

Techno Hippy will eat your soul!
May 21, 2009
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Zhukov said:
El Poncho said:
Zhukov said:
[snipped to save space]
They did die to protect your freedom. Maybe they didn't know they were fighting for your specific freedom, but they were fighting for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced to sign up but in the end they were still fighting for the freedom of their country and other countries at the same time. So some joined to fight for the freedom of their country, some may have been forced but the outcome was the same, freedom for their country. Some didn't know what they were dying for but they were still dying for it, and this is why we honour them.

It is very selfish to think dying for you means specifically for you.
Okay, let me put this another way. A whole lot of guys ran around killing each other and dying all over the place. This we know to be true. Now, let us assume that they died "for the freedom of their country". So... why exactly am I personally expected to care about this?

....

No, wait. That doesn't work either. That just makes me sound like a apathetic brat.

...

Let me put it yet another way. In the year 575 BC the Battle of Yanling took place between the states of Chu and Jin. A whole lot of Chinese guys died "for the freedom of their countries." Do you genuinely care about this? Are you going to commemorate this every year? Are you going to wear a little flower on your shirt? Salute a flag perhaps? Yes? No?
But it isn't my country, or my freedom... If I was chinese I may very well commemorate them every year having been educated about it.

The people you are honouring are the soldiers from your country, who fought for your freedom.
The chinese guys fought for their country and their freedom.
 

Count Igor

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May 5, 2010
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Pirate Kitty said:
No need to be sorry. I'm in a bad mood and was being rather short with you.

I was in the wrong.

What I was trying to get across was that as a people, if we loose perspective of how lucky we are, we forget how good we have it. They fought and died so we don't have to. Forget that and every day little things seem like a big deal.
Ah. Thanks for the explanation, I was just being thick. That does make sense, and I agree with you.

Edit: And no, you were being fine, and in the right here ^^
 

Knusper

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Sep 10, 2010
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I care a lot about Remembrance Day, not that I even know anyone who serves (/has served) on the frontline of war that well. I just feel that they deserve at least 2 minutes of respect and that wounded soldiers and their families should be given as much support as we can give them. It makes me feel good to pay lots for my poppy, I paid £5 last year.
 

SturmDolch

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May 17, 2009
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Remembrance Day isn't just about World War I and II. It's about every war, ever. Remembering the soldiers that gave their lives fighting. Whether it be for someone's definition of freedom, or another's idea of Fascism, or yet another's concept of Communism. While I may not agree at all with one of those three concepts, they were still soldiers. Still people that were sent out by some greater power than them to fight an enemy, or forced to defend their home from being invaded.

Today is for remembering those that believed in a cause so much that they were willing to fight for it. But it is also for remembering those that were given no other choice.

I have no personal investment in this. None of my family has died in a war, except maybe the Napoleonic Wars or previous. Thankfully, Switzerland has been neutral since 1803. None of my family fought in wars. However, my grandfather was prepared to fight the Nazis should they invade.

You can also use today for remembering the civilians. For example, the Swiss civilians that the US bombed during World War II. Or the civilians killed during Vietnam or in Iraq. It's really up to you.

And it's not like it's an all day thing for most people. Just take a moment out of your day to go "huh" and move on. Yes, some people will be having ceremonies. Let them. I see no reason to hate.