How does Marvel's New York still have a crime problem?

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Zontar

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In Marvel's comics, 60% of the Universe is within your daily commute to Manhattan, which is understandable given the studio's history. And I can understand it initially given the crime rates in the 60s and early 70s the greater city area had.

But those days are long over, and compared to that period where the heroes we know and love today where created one could be excused for thinking some sort of miracle has happened. Yes crime still exists, but in the 80s organized crimes started to leave New York for greener pastiers (white collar crime being the exception). I know that it's a comic book universe, and everyone will always say things like "Even though there are teams like the Fantastic Four and Avengers, they don't fight crime per say" or "for every hero there's 4 or 5 villains", which are true, but something to keep in mind is that big organizations that don't deal with street level problems tend to repel them just by their presents, the CIA being perfect examples (unless you want to get into possible CIA criminal activity, but this isn't about debating weather or not they are doing such things), and the groups like F4 and Avengers would be ones you wouldn't want to get to close to if you're planning something.

As for the villain to hero ratio, given how the heroes usually mentioned that are street level tend to only care about the one city or even just a part of it (almost always Hell's Kitchen), why would the villains even want to continue to operate in a city where 1) most heroes capable of fighting them who aren't to busy with something else live, and 2) the heroes they know of in the city always win, it makes me wonder why they bother to continue to operate in the city when there are other cities on the east coast in the US and Canada where whatever criminal activity they are doing can be done without worry from supers.

I like a street level superhero as much as the next guy, but why does it need to be set in a place where crime isn't the problem it used to be? The settings where compelling in their time because it was a reflection of reality, there was crime in real New York, there was crime in Marvel New York. Now the real problems of crime have moved elsewhere, like St. Louis, Detroit, Kansas City, Atlanta, and a long list of other major cities that have far surpassed New York as crime centers for the US.

So I guess what it comes down to is: Why no more contemporary settings for street crime?
 

FalloutJack

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Because it's so round...so plump...so fully-packed!

...what? I got that off of Looney Tunes.

Anyway, crime probably happens because the low-key boys figure they can get away with stuff because the heroes are busy with the big supervillain who wants a piece of them.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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There's a couple of reasons.

1. Fans ***** over any change, no matter how minor. If the Spiderman writers suddenly decided that Spiderman now lives in Los Angeles, or Detroit, or somewhere else there would be nonstop bitching from fans for quite a while.

2. Some of the heroes are specifically built around the New York setting. Like again with the spiderman example, Spiderman's powers really only work at their maximum in a big city with lots of huge skyscrapers and a lot of verticality. Sure, there are other cities that have massive skyscrapers in the US, but there aren't any cities that are as densely packed with skyscrapers as New York.

3. Why does the Marvel comic book universe have to be the same as our universe in all senses except the inclusion of superheroes and super-villains? It's fiction after all, so there's no real reason to say that all crime moved out of New York just because crime rates in the real New York have drastically fallen.
 

Ryotknife

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Because those other cities are not as posh as NYC? I mean, if you are going to fight crime as a superhero, why not fight it in the seat of high luxury and the playpen of the rich?

I mean, I guess Las Vegas is an option too.
 

Scarim Coral

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Heh that is something I have notice for a long time. I mean this are the heroes and teams you got located in New York-
Spiderman
X-men (well used to)
The Avengers
Dare Devil
Heroes for Hire (?)
Fantastic Four
Dr Strange
Power Pack (used to)

There are probably more heroes located in New Yourk that I am unaware of!

I can guess the reason why there still crime in the city despite the large amount of superheroes located there is that they son't simply cooperate with other per say. Only when an invasion or a big villain show up but not for ridding the city of crime once and for all!

Anyway I know the reason why they have so many heroes in that city is that city setting was the perfert environment for a superhero to lived in. That what the documentary said and even joke about imagine Spiderman was in Texas beating up hillbillies???
 

AustinN

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Scarim Coral said:
Heh that is something I have notice for a long time. I mean this are the heroes and teams you got located in New York-
Spiderman
X-men (well used to)
The Avengers
Dare Devil
Heroes for Hire (?)
Fantastic Four
Dr Strange
Power Pack (used to)

There are probably more heroes located in New Yourk that I am unaware of!
You forgot the Punisher. You don't want to forget him when discussing the impact of superheroes/vigilantes in New York City.

Perhaps the answer is is that not every superhero goes out on patrol the way Batman or Spider-Man does. I've never heard of Cyclops walking the mean streets of New York looking for trouble. I'm guessing there are only a handful of characters New York criminals are at a consistent risk of encountering. I've also thought that maybe it's because of the presence of criminal organizations that don't exist in real life, like the Kingpin and the Maggia.

I want to see a short story set in Marvel's New York where a criminal gets his ass whooped by a different superhero every week, and finally decides "F' it" and moves out of the city.
 

Parasondox

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That's a very interesting point. I have always wondered this whenever a city, mostly New York, in a Marvel comic book story is in a high risk danger like lets say, THE CITY IS ABOUT TO BE DESTROYED BY AN ARMY OF SOMETHING OR WHATEVER, why don't they just call ALL the known superheroes of that city that may and will be able to provide added help.

This is why I like the DC approach of fictional cities. Superman deals with Metropolis, Flash has Central City, Green Arrow with Starling, Batman with Gotham, Yeah they have the real cities too like Boston and others but at least one city isn't so over crowded. And as someone pointed out days ago, when Gotham was suffering the effects of an earthquake, Superman came in to help and Batman told him to "fuck off, I've got this".

Dirty Hipsters said:
There's a couple of reasons.

1. Fans ***** over any change, no matter how minor. If the Spiderman writers suddenly decided that Spiderman now lives in Los Angeles, or Detroit, or somewhere else there would be nonstop bitching from fans for quite a while.
Seriously they ***** at that too? I know some hardcore fans love to ***** a bit to much but a little change in location wouldn't hurt the character too much?
 

AustinN

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http://www.examiner.com/article/batman-is-a-total-failure

Anyone ever read this? It's similar to the topic at hand, and it's a pretty humorous look at how badly Batman must have failed if Gotham still sucks so bad.
 

Yagami_Kira

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Because the crime in all those cities you listed are due to "urban youth". And it's not politically correct to point to the demographics that are criminals.
 

KazeAizen

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Paradox SuXcess said:
That's a very interesting point. I have always wondered this whenever a city, mostly New York, in a Marvel comic book story is in a high risk danger like lets say, THE CITY IS ABOUT TO BE DESTROYED BY AN ARMY OF SOMETHING OR WHATEVER, why don't they just call ALL the known superheroes of that city that may and will be able to provide added help.

This is why I like the DC approach of fictional cities. Superman deals with Metropolis, Flash has Central City, Green Arrow with Starling, Batman with Gotham, Yeah they have the real cities too like Boston and others but at least one city isn't so over crowded. And as someone pointed out days ago, when Gotham was suffering the effects of an earthquake, Superman came in to help and Batman told him to "fuck off, I've got this".

Dirty Hipsters said:
There's a couple of reasons.

1. Fans ***** over any change, no matter how minor. If the Spiderman writers suddenly decided that Spiderman now lives in Los Angeles, or Detroit, or somewhere else there would be nonstop bitching from fans for quite a while.
Seriously they ***** at that too? I know some hardcore fans love to ***** a bit to much but a little change in location wouldn't hurt the character too much?
Fan will ***** and whine and "boycott" if their preferred status quo is disrupted. i.e. Superior Spider-Man is going bye bye because fans hated the idea of Doc Ock being Spider-Man. It was a good series too. It deserved at least 2 more years. Maybe more. :(
 

Shoggoth2588

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I think it's a problem with the writers and/or editors...ask a writer to make Spider-Man fight The Punisher for the umpteeth time and you'll have a dozen scripts on your desk before lunch. As a writer to come up with a reason to Tony Stark, the F4, Peter Parker etc to uproot and say, move to Baltimore and you'll have fewer ideas. Like someone else mentioned above too, fans cringe over change and if the change is too drastic, the cringing turns into vocal tirades, which is where the editors come in. An imaginative writer or several has probably wanted Dr. Strange to move to New Orleans for decades but no...editorial mandates require him to stay put OR float around in space. Maybe there were a number of uprooting storylines that were changed into hero-vs-hero conflicts since the later would sell better than something about Johnny Storm moving out of town.

That could have been something Marvel NOW could have gotten into...change up the Iron Man stories into an anthology about how Stark has turned himself into an organic server and is able to swap his conscious mind between suits in any-given major metropolitan city in the US. Wolverine could work as a Ronin (which I'm sure has been proven before) and since he's generally depicted as being ageless he could have a plot in which he travels up and down Japan during the warring states era. That's all I've really got...except for the other obvious one about The Punisher just traveling the world and hunting down people for so much as jay-walking.
 

thedoclc

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The answer to the original question is quite simple; New York gets grandfathered in because Stan Lee grew up in New York and set his Silver and Bronze Age heroes up there. It then became an iconic part of many of those characters such as Daredevil and Spidey.

Spidey from St. Louis?

No thanks.

Paradox SuXcess said:
-Snip-

Seriously they ***** at that too? I know some hardcore fans love to ***** a bit to much but a little change in location wouldn't hurt the character too much?
"I know some hardcore fans..." is not to say all, most, or even a significant fraction. Yes, there would be a great deal of whining, entitled complaining. The fanboy outrage machine is always ready to scream and throw a temper tantrum at the slightest affront to "their" property.

However, changing a person's origin city can have a large impact on what they are like depending on what cities one compares. While I doubt there would be a huge difference between growing up in Houston versus San Antonio, the difference between the experiences of growing up in NYC and New Orleans, or Salt Lake City and Miami, or Berlin and Tokyo.

We grow up both shaped by and pushing back against the regional influences, and a well-written character has to do that. (Granted, other pressures such as gender roles, sexuality, class, and race often have far bigger roles, but for my purposes, that's neither here nor there.) Simply put, growing up in certain areas does change who you are fundamentally by both molding you to fit that place and causing you to reject and push back against that. And almost all of those characters wind up defending their hometown.

Of course, I could see something like a character who moved to LA from Salt Lake City as being interesting in their own right as they struggle a bit with the mores of LA.
 

Parasondox

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thedoclc said:
The answer to the original question is quite simple; New York gets grandfathered in because Stan Lee grew up in New York and set his Silver and Bronze Age heroes up there. It then became an iconic part of many of those characters such as Daredevil and Spidey.

Spidey from St. Louis?

No thanks.

Paradox SuXcess said:
-Snip-

Seriously they ***** at that too? I know some hardcore fans love to ***** a bit to much but a little change in location wouldn't hurt the character too much?
"I know some hardcore fans..." is not to say all, most, or even a significant fraction. Yes, there would be a great deal of whining, entitled complaining. The fanboy outrage machine is always ready to scream and throw a temper tantrum at the slightest affront to "their" property.

However, changing a person's origin city can have a large impact on what they are like depending on what cities one compares. While I doubt there would be a huge difference between growing up in Houston versus San Antonio, the difference between the experiences of growing up in NYC and New Orleans, or Salt Lake City and Miami, or Berlin and Tokyo.

We grow up both shaped by and pushing back against the regional influences, and a well-written character has to do that. (Granted, other pressures such as gender roles, sexuality, class, and race often have far bigger roles, but for my purposes, that's neither here nor there.) Simply put, growing up in certain areas does change who you are fundamentally by both molding you to fit that place and causing you to reject and push back against that. And almost all of those characters wind up defending their hometown.

Of course, I could see something like a character who moved to LA from Salt Lake City as being interesting in their own right as they struggle a bit with the mores of LA.
I see and agree with your point that the place we were born in or grow up is what can mold us into the adult that we are today but I didn't mean the change of origin story. I mean't down the lines of, yes Peter Parker grew up in New York and that is his home but how about another stories where he just moves from New York for a bit (not permanently) to a different location and maybe a different story can come from that as part of his many tales. Would a certain number of fans still be outraged and "*****"? Just like you mentioned at the end of your post, it would be very interesting to see how a character from one area goes to another and experience there struggle outside of their own norm.
 

Canadamus Prime

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What I want to know is how Marvel New York hasn't gone bankrupt from having to to make repairs to the city's infrastructure after being attacked by super villains ever other week.
 

Souplex

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Because why would anyone care about something happening outside of New York?
I was outside of New York once. It was the worst place I've ever been, and I've been to Queens.
Never again.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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Maybe criminals wait till a super villian turns up and keep the heros occupied. Plus i dont see many heroes dealing with pick pockets etc
 

Something Amyss

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Zontar said:
but something to keep in mind is that big organizations that don't deal with street level problems tend to repel them just by their presents, the CIA being perfect examples
Even with forces specifically designed to deal with crime, it still happens in the real world. Why would unrelated forces prevent crime?

As for the villain to hero ratio, given how the heroes usually mentioned that are street level tend to only care about the one city or even just a part of it (almost always Hell's Kitchen), why would the villains even want to continue to operate in a city where 1) most heroes capable of fighting them who aren't to busy with something else live, and 2) the heroes they know of in the city always win, it makes me wonder why they bother to continue to operate in the city when there are other cities on the east coast in the US and Canada where whatever criminal activity they are doing can be done without worry from supers.
Assuming that just because we only hear about these heroes they're the only ones who exist. What makes you think it's automatically better in other cities?

Also, it depends on the pragmatics. Moving isn't necessarily simple, and who are we talking about? Street level thugs probably can't, outfits like the Maggia make enough money to keep going, and a lot of supers seem to make out well enough most of the time.

I like a street level superhero as much as the next guy, but why does it need to be set in a place where crime isn't the problem it used to be?
Because they're comic books, not a reflection of the reality of the day?

Dirty Hipsters said:
1. Fans ***** over any change, no matter how minor. If the Spiderman writers suddenly decided that Spiderman now lives in Los Angeles, or Detroit, or somewhere else there would be nonstop bitching from fans for quite a while.
That hasn't stopped them from marrying Peter and MJ, then "killing" MJ, then breaking them up like 59 times. Or from making Peter a clone (Which, granted, they retconned) or killing him, or....

Honestly, I'm not sure they give a damn if the fans whine. Why? Because fans whine, period.

Scarim Coral said:
There are probably more heroes located in New Yourk that I am unaware of!
In NYC, there are four heroes per square meter. They'd fumigate, except that usually just creates more of them. Fun fact: every name including the phrase "bug bomb" was trademarked in the 80s by heroes created in a tragic exterminator truck crash. It created 900 toxic-gas-powered superheroes and claimed the lives of their loved ones all at once.

But seriously, there are literally hundreds of supers in NYC.

KazeAizen said:
Fan will ***** and whine and "boycott" if their preferred status quo is disrupted. i.e. Superior Spider-Man is going bye bye because fans hated the idea of Doc Ock being Spider-Man. It was a good series too. It deserved at least 2 more years. Maybe more. :(
Superior Spider-Man is the exception here, not the rule. Sales don't normally fail like that. Maybe there just wasn't a market for it?

wombat_of_war said:
i dont know why anyone would want to live in a city with a superhero. they do tend to atract supervillians looking to fight their nemesis like flies
At this point, the rent has to be like 30 cents a month.

Souplex said:
Because why would anyone care about something happening outside of New York?
I was outside of New York once. It was the worst place I've ever been, and I've been to Queens.
Never again.
Yeah, "not New York" is overrated.
 

Sean Renaud

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Scarim Coral said:
Heh that is something I have notice for a long time. I mean this are the heroes and teams you got located in New York-
Spiderman
X-men (well used to)
The Avengers
Dare Devil
Heroes for Hire (?)
Fantastic Four
Dr Strange
Power Pack (used to)
First crime just happens and I suspect that in Marvel New York there is a disproportionate amount of "real" money and stuff in New York, like Marvel "Fort Knox" or something similar is there but lets run down the list.

1. Spiderman: Fights street crime but he can only be in one place at any time so petty criminals can just play the odds that he's not hovering overhead when they decide to sell drugs to kids or steal a grannie's purse.

2. The X-Men are at best vigilantes and not the kind the government looks to kindly. And (while it makes very little sense how Spidey for example gets precisely zero shit despite nobody (in the public) having a clue where is powers come from the X-men are likely to get attacked by criminal and victim alike the moment they reveal they are muties. As much as the X-Men are constantly presented as the good guys I find it difficult believe that any of them go too far out of their way to stop problems that don't more or less directly involve them.

3. The Avengers (depending on the telling) only assemble when the world is at risk and when they aren't they scatter to the four corners.

4. Daredevil is like Spidey. Unable to be everywhere at once but probably makes a big splash.

5 Fantastic Four, do they bother at all with anything that isn't directed at them or the city?

6. Doctor Strange: Seriously. This guy doesn't get out of bed for anything shy of hell invading earth via outrealm. I wonder if he and Raiden remained pen pals after that whole cross over madness?

7. Power Pack: No clue who they are.

In short it's a city of millions with only a few dozen heros most of whom have bigger issues to deal with than day to day crime and the bigger criminals are either directly targeting the heroes or are trying to attack either the super bank that's apparently in New York or one of the many research facilities with top secret shit that are probably set in New York specifically because of the protection that comes from having Earth's Mightiest Heroes all within six blocks instead of in say Alaska where nobody (but Dr. Doom, Dr. Octopus or Dr. Drakken) would think to look but if they do think to look there nobody can get there in time to do shit about it.