How is the new wave of "old school" RPGs doing?
- Thread starter endtherapture
- Start date
I've been enjoying them a great deal. With the exception of Baldursgate 2 I never played the games that inspired many of them (Even technically playing BG2 many, many years afterwards) so I usually laugh when I hear people use the ever sad "Nostalgia is the reason" excuse.
/bowMangod said:
Thank you, thank you. I accept many forms of payment/bribery for my services if ever you're in need of someone to argue over videogames.
If you don't think nostalgia is the reason those games even exist, you need to go watch the kickstarter pitches. The fact that you specifically are not nostalgic for them is not evidence of anything other than your own proclivities. Even their most ardent fan would acknowledge that "nostalgia" underpins almost every element of their design.Ryan Minns said:
Oh man, someone's dissing Shadowrun.
I really like the Shadowrun series. That's not to say it's not without its flaws. The combat system is a little flat, the character models are absolutely horrendous, and they haven't yet announced their fourth game.
That being said, I'm the kind of guy who can forgive a lot as long as something is done well enough. The story, characters, atmosphere and setting are great (although it can only take some of the credit for the setting). As well, I barely even notice the character models, the character portraits and backdrops are all good enough that they're how I picture the world and characters. Let's take it game by game though.
Returns
While the weakest of the three by a decent margin, I'd say it's still pretty good. It starts off with a very low key, down to earth story. I was all gung-ho on it until the
One of my major complaints of games and movies is that they're all so intent on making things such a big scale. If the world isn't in peril then it's apparently not a story worth telling. In any case, a large part of my issue with it was that I felt like I was finally getting one of those stories, only to be robbed at the last minute. That and the fact that the threat was a
Another major weakness was that it didn't really have a defined cast of characters. You didn't get to know much about the people you were running with.
Dragonfall
Best of the lot. The beginning of this game is just excellent. No slow beginning, you're just thrust into the action, and find yourself responsible for taking care of the unexpected fallout.
There's a small team of characters, and all of them are well written. The execution of the character relationships is very similar to the Bioware Buddy System. In between missions you can talk with your teammates and get some insight into their personality and history. I found that it was more organic in this game though, because it doesn't stick as rigidly to the formula of "Talk with character -> Loyalty Mission -> Best buds" that Bioware uses. If you do things correctly, one of the characters doesn't get a loyalty mission, one of the character's "loyalty mission" is done through one of the main quests if you decide to bring him on (And happens very early in the game). The other two are more standard.
I think one of the most discerning aspects to me was that they're staggered in there delivery. In Bioware I'd accumulate something like 10 loyalty missions from my team all around the same time, and just have a massive backlog of quests to go on. It's nice to have them distributed more evenly around the game, as well as not being all structured in the same way.
The story itself is very unique and interesting, and I think that the uniqueness of the Shadowrun setting really helps to enable that. You start off being involved in the story, and as time goes on your personal stake in it only increases. The story also has a relatively low scope. You're fighting for the safety of the town you adopt, bad things will happen if you fail, but the world will keep turning.
I also really like how they decided to use a setting outside of North America and the UK. The game takes place in a small slum in Germany, and while I'd have liked them to use the setting a little bit more, it at the very least adds a different sort of character to the game.
Hong Kong
This one sneaks in just behind Dragonfall. Although across the board I'd say it's the better of the two, it doesn't quite hit the same highs points. It's still very good.
Once again you've got a unique setting in Hong Kong, and this time they make much better use of it. You get to see a lot more of (on the assumption that it's accurate) the Hong Kong influence.
The story and characters are pretty close in quality to Dragonfall. I particularly liked Duncan and Is0bel. It's a nice change for the hot-headed character not to be the protagonists for one. Unfortunately there's some aspects and of the story that I wish they went into more, and I get the impression they wanted to but it got cut.
Most notably, it was really annoyed when
I found the story really interesting though. The basic gist is that you and your effective brother get a call from your surrogate father begging you to come to Hong Kong to help him. When you get there, as expected, not everything goes right. You are on the run and have to hide in a district run by a crime lord. However, everyone in the district has been suffering from the same ominous nightmare about a nearby slum called the Walled City. The nightmares get worse and worse as time goes on, and imply that something really bad is lurking there. While I like the atmosphere and concept of the story a lot, they don't really do enough with it beyond that. In Dragonfall the story evolves and things happen, here you're merely having details of the mystery revealed to you. I still like it, but it had less of an impact.
The Matrix was definitely a step up in this game. A major complaint in previous games was that it was too similar to the regular world. The changes they made weren't perfect, but they made some good headway into defining that distinction more. The gameplay wasn't otherwise changed all that much, aside from the addition of skills.
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I haven't played any of the other new old-school rpgs, but this one really grabbed me. Certainly not an unflawed game, but it did enough different and enough well enough to be worth a try
I really like the Shadowrun series. That's not to say it's not without its flaws. The combat system is a little flat, the character models are absolutely horrendous, and they haven't yet announced their fourth game.
That being said, I'm the kind of guy who can forgive a lot as long as something is done well enough. The story, characters, atmosphere and setting are great (although it can only take some of the credit for the setting). As well, I barely even notice the character models, the character portraits and backdrops are all good enough that they're how I picture the world and characters. Let's take it game by game though.
Returns
While the weakest of the three by a decent margin, I'd say it's still pretty good. It starts off with a very low key, down to earth story. I was all gung-ho on it until the
Interdimensional ghost insect cult invasion
Interdimensional ghost insect cult invasion
Dragonfall
Best of the lot. The beginning of this game is just excellent. No slow beginning, you're just thrust into the action, and find yourself responsible for taking care of the unexpected fallout.
There's a small team of characters, and all of them are well written. The execution of the character relationships is very similar to the Bioware Buddy System. In between missions you can talk with your teammates and get some insight into their personality and history. I found that it was more organic in this game though, because it doesn't stick as rigidly to the formula of "Talk with character -> Loyalty Mission -> Best buds" that Bioware uses. If you do things correctly, one of the characters doesn't get a loyalty mission, one of the character's "loyalty mission" is done through one of the main quests if you decide to bring him on (And happens very early in the game). The other two are more standard.
I think one of the most discerning aspects to me was that they're staggered in there delivery. In Bioware I'd accumulate something like 10 loyalty missions from my team all around the same time, and just have a massive backlog of quests to go on. It's nice to have them distributed more evenly around the game, as well as not being all structured in the same way.
The story itself is very unique and interesting, and I think that the uniqueness of the Shadowrun setting really helps to enable that. You start off being involved in the story, and as time goes on your personal stake in it only increases. The story also has a relatively low scope. You're fighting for the safety of the town you adopt, bad things will happen if you fail, but the world will keep turning.
I also really like how they decided to use a setting outside of North America and the UK. The game takes place in a small slum in Germany, and while I'd have liked them to use the setting a little bit more, it at the very least adds a different sort of character to the game.
Hong Kong
This one sneaks in just behind Dragonfall. Although across the board I'd say it's the better of the two, it doesn't quite hit the same highs points. It's still very good.
Once again you've got a unique setting in Hong Kong, and this time they make much better use of it. You get to see a lot more of (on the assumption that it's accurate) the Hong Kong influence.
The story and characters are pretty close in quality to Dragonfall. I particularly liked Duncan and Is0bel. It's a nice change for the hot-headed character not to be the protagonists for one. Unfortunately there's some aspects and of the story that I wish they went into more, and I get the impression they wanted to but it got cut.
Most notably, it was really annoyed when
Everyone warned me about letting the Plastic-Faced man go because Kindly Cheng would have my head. I let him go. Everyone warned me to hide this from Kindly Cheng because she'd kill me if she found out. I told her. There was absolutely no consequence for me. I was hyped for this consequence. The whole game they portray her as heartless and controlling, someone who was dangerous to work with. And when I do the one thing that will threaten her authority, absolutely nothing comes of it.
There was also little done with the main antagonist, in fact you never even get to meet her. I get the impression that both of these things were cut from the game due to time or money constraints.
There was also little done with the main antagonist, in fact you never even get to meet her. I get the impression that both of these things were cut from the game due to time or money constraints.
I found the story really interesting though. The basic gist is that you and your effective brother get a call from your surrogate father begging you to come to Hong Kong to help him. When you get there, as expected, not everything goes right. You are on the run and have to hide in a district run by a crime lord. However, everyone in the district has been suffering from the same ominous nightmare about a nearby slum called the Walled City. The nightmares get worse and worse as time goes on, and imply that something really bad is lurking there. While I like the atmosphere and concept of the story a lot, they don't really do enough with it beyond that. In Dragonfall the story evolves and things happen, here you're merely having details of the mystery revealed to you. I still like it, but it had less of an impact.
The Matrix was definitely a step up in this game. A major complaint in previous games was that it was too similar to the regular world. The changes they made weren't perfect, but they made some good headway into defining that distinction more. The gameplay wasn't otherwise changed all that much, aside from the addition of skills.
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I haven't played any of the other new old-school rpgs, but this one really grabbed me. Certainly not an unflawed game, but it did enough different and enough well enough to be worth a try
Pillars: CI came into this really wanting to enjoy it, hoping that the less dated presentation of the same ideas would allow me to finally understand how people enjoy Baulder's Gate. Neither of these things happened. The story and setting utterly failed to get me invested, the combat (at least at the start) felt less "tactical" and more "point your dudes at their dudes and pray the dice don't fuck you.", the art direction was stale as old bread, and every level up felt like a horrifyingly stressful chance to render the game unwinnable. I might go back with tempered expectations and see if I can push through, but at this point I'm just glad I got it on sale.
Divinity: OK I really enjoyed the combat in this one because it actually felt genuinely tactical. Its a shame then, that it was buried under a terrible story, cringe inducing conversations, the inexplicable choice to saddle you with two equally bland PCs, and the absolute worst kind of archaic no map no hints questing that left me putzing around the starting town for over an hour without making any progress.
Shadowrun: I love the world here, and I think I got my money's worth buying them all at a deep discount, but I'm not going to pretend they aren't deeply flawed. The original was just ass, but while Dragonfall and Hong Kong made significant improvements, most in the form of a story and cast I actually gave half a damn about, nothing was ever done to fix the woefully simplistic boring combat, the dated static backgrounds, or the downright amateurish model and animation work. I would even say they took a small step back in one way, as Dead Man's Switch actually gave me ("me" as in my blank slate self insert fantasy PC) a reason to be there and be the one calling the shots. In the later games (Dragonfall especially) the PC feels like a fifth wheel and yet by blatant contrivance somehow manages to end up in charge, leaving me to question why I'm forced into the role of this worthless AFGNCAAP instead of seeing the sotory through the eyes of someone a. interesting and b. invested.
So put me down as not onboard for the retro revolution. As someone who grew up on a mix of platformers, JRPGs, and Diablo 2, I don't think I was really ever the target audience for games like this that lean so heavily on nostalgia that I simply don't have.
Divinity: OK I really enjoyed the combat in this one because it actually felt genuinely tactical. Its a shame then, that it was buried under a terrible story, cringe inducing conversations, the inexplicable choice to saddle you with two equally bland PCs, and the absolute worst kind of archaic no map no hints questing that left me putzing around the starting town for over an hour without making any progress.
Shadowrun: I love the world here, and I think I got my money's worth buying them all at a deep discount, but I'm not going to pretend they aren't deeply flawed. The original was just ass, but while Dragonfall and Hong Kong made significant improvements, most in the form of a story and cast I actually gave half a damn about, nothing was ever done to fix the woefully simplistic boring combat, the dated static backgrounds, or the downright amateurish model and animation work. I would even say they took a small step back in one way, as Dead Man's Switch actually gave me ("me" as in my blank slate self insert fantasy PC) a reason to be there and be the one calling the shots. In the later games (Dragonfall especially) the PC feels like a fifth wheel and yet by blatant contrivance somehow manages to end up in charge, leaving me to question why I'm forced into the role of this worthless AFGNCAAP instead of seeing the sotory through the eyes of someone a. interesting and b. invested.
So put me down as not onboard for the retro revolution. As someone who grew up on a mix of platformers, JRPGs, and Diablo 2, I don't think I was really ever the target audience for games like this that lean so heavily on nostalgia that I simply don't have.
I'm wondering which I should pick up. I never really got into the originals, the infinity engine games, etc, and I was considering picking one up. I was thinking Divinity would be a good option, and I think a Director's cut or complete edition came out. I'm interested in the stories, and some of the gameplay, just so long as it's as far away from lining up dude and waiting as they whale on each other turn by turn a la Final Fantasy.
And where would be the best place to pick up Planescape: Torment, because apparently that's awesome, and I want in.
And where would be the best place to pick up Planescape: Torment, because apparently that's awesome, and I want in.
Please don't give them any ideas. FPS fans would totally do this. "Doom reskin" is not always said ironically.BloatedGuppy said:
I've only played through Shadowrun: Returns from those listed in this thread, and had surprising amounts of fun. One of these few games that've turned better than expected, judging upon reviews. Sure most of commonly exemplified flaws are there(the combat isn't that great, and campaign overally feels rushed), but it was just so engaging and made me realize how much i've missed these kind of dialogues in rpgs.
And i'm currently playing through Dragonfall, that is better in practically every way, so the score so far is 2/2, for me.
And i'm currently playing through Dragonfall, that is better in practically every way, so the score so far is 2/2, for me.
I guess there's only one place where you can get it legally and/or for a reasonable price nowadays. Go to GOG.Loonyyy said:
Loved DOS (not because it's an RPG really, but because the combat was fantastic), everything else mentioned in this thread is a vastly over rated nostalgia trip, and I've played everything this latest wave pays homage to and none of them were all that at the time either.
The problem is simple: the writing in all RPGs is infantile, same for character development, when you compare it to even the most average novel. The dialogue from NPCs is moronic and repetitive. The quests are almost always fed-ex. Honestly, what I've seen in 40 years of playing PC games is laughably awful when you compare it to even the worst live DND session.
So, no, I'm not terribly impressed by the so called "old school" RPG's of late. haha
The problem is simple: the writing in all RPGs is infantile, same for character development, when you compare it to even the most average novel. The dialogue from NPCs is moronic and repetitive. The quests are almost always fed-ex. Honestly, what I've seen in 40 years of playing PC games is laughably awful when you compare it to even the worst live DND session.
So, no, I'm not terribly impressed by the so called "old school" RPG's of late. haha
Well after the pages long blow-by-blow, I'm actually relieved that I'm not the one doing another epoch-long post.
-Shadowrun Returns: Genre-defining atmosphere, excellent stories (excluding Dead Man's Switch; which still had its moments), three-dimensional characters...I positively adore the Shadowrun setting to begin with, but even distancing myself from my bias, the lore and worldbuilding in these games are far more than just nostalgic pandering.
On the flip side... the "game" element and is very lacking; ranging from frustrating to just outright BAD.
Above all, the SRR engine is an albatross holding the game back, severely.
It doesn't just look cheap, it plays cheap. Even with iterative improvements to its performance, I can't shake the feeling of how much better the game could be with a different engine. (it's not like the dialogue trees and menus wouldn't translate to anything else; they're just a bunch of pointers and DO:IF statements)
And the combat...this series outright LIES to the player about % chances, while crits and flanking make absolutely no sense. I love these games in spite of that, but holy god DAMN can they piss me off.
-Divinity: Original Sin
Amazing RPG. Extremely flexible character creation system.
Tons of environment effects and interactions that encourage lateral thinking.
(though can be extremely cheesy at the same time; pro-tip: Rain is an incredible spell; both offensively and defensively)
The worst part of the game may come from the need to save-scum to hell and back to get good gear.
(seriously; what the hell do I have to do to appease RNGesus enough to give me a decent One-handed STR weapon? I was positively SWIMMING in 2H weapons, but nothing for my sword-and-board dude)
-Pillars of Eternity: I have it installed on my old computer, but decided to postpone playing it since I have a new gaming computer inbound. I'll know a lot more following Thanksgiving.
-Wasteland 2: Saw it, and have wanted to try it for a long time now.
Though all the opinions I hear on it are mixed. (very love/hate)
Incidentally, I've now played through Fallout 1 and a bit of Fallout 2. I see why old fans are so nostalgic for it.
Those games hold up very well in every way save graphically.
-Shadowrun Returns: Genre-defining atmosphere, excellent stories (excluding Dead Man's Switch; which still had its moments), three-dimensional characters...I positively adore the Shadowrun setting to begin with, but even distancing myself from my bias, the lore and worldbuilding in these games are far more than just nostalgic pandering.
On the flip side... the "game" element and is very lacking; ranging from frustrating to just outright BAD.
Above all, the SRR engine is an albatross holding the game back, severely.
It doesn't just look cheap, it plays cheap. Even with iterative improvements to its performance, I can't shake the feeling of how much better the game could be with a different engine. (it's not like the dialogue trees and menus wouldn't translate to anything else; they're just a bunch of pointers and DO:IF statements)
And the combat...this series outright LIES to the player about % chances, while crits and flanking make absolutely no sense. I love these games in spite of that, but holy god DAMN can they piss me off.
-Divinity: Original Sin
Amazing RPG. Extremely flexible character creation system.
Tons of environment effects and interactions that encourage lateral thinking.
(though can be extremely cheesy at the same time; pro-tip: Rain is an incredible spell; both offensively and defensively)
The worst part of the game may come from the need to save-scum to hell and back to get good gear.
(seriously; what the hell do I have to do to appease RNGesus enough to give me a decent One-handed STR weapon? I was positively SWIMMING in 2H weapons, but nothing for my sword-and-board dude)
-Pillars of Eternity: I have it installed on my old computer, but decided to postpone playing it since I have a new gaming computer inbound. I'll know a lot more following Thanksgiving.
-Wasteland 2: Saw it, and have wanted to try it for a long time now.
Though all the opinions I hear on it are mixed. (very love/hate)
Incidentally, I've now played through Fallout 1 and a bit of Fallout 2. I see why old fans are so nostalgic for it.
Those games hold up very well in every way save graphically.