I am not watching Justice League until I see Snyder's Cut of the Movie.

Hawki

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Well, yeah - the DCEU's a veritable dumpster fire. It's unsalvageable as far as a continuity with any vision or confidence goes, hence scrapping it and going again makes sense.
Don't agree. The DCEU isn't some paragon of quality, but the only film I can call a "dumpster fire" is BvS. Likewise, each film has kept to an established continuity. So even if I agreed with the dumpster fire sentiment, what's the point of rebooting it?

Darth Rosenberg said:
It's not a perfect parallel, but there was a gap of nine years between Batman And Robin and Batman Begins. Same character, entirely different expression with a real vision. Give the DCEU as a whole a break (that doesn't stop them doing smaller scale, perhaps riskier IP's in the meantime), then do it - ahem... - justice.
Yeah, okay, I'm not going to defend Batman & Robin, and history has validated giving the reigns to Nolan (and hey, I like his Dark Knight Trilogy myself), but few points in this scenario:

1) I'm not complaining, but there was no obligation to reboot the Batman films after Batman and Robin. Ever heard of Batman Triumphant, how it would have returned to the tone of the Burton films? Creatively speaking, there was no reason to reboot the films.

2) Even that aside, the DCEU is more than just Batman, so you're effectively throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you reboot it. You mention the trinity (more on that later), but at this point, what need is there? Everyone and their mother knows the origin stories of Batman and Superman (one piece of credit I can give the DCEU is that it thankfully skips a Batman origin story, and wisely goes with a veteran Batman), and Wonder Woman is the best film in the bunch. What's the point of doing another Wonder Woman origin movie when the one we have is pretty decent?

Darth Rosenberg said:
I've never really liked the DC universe, but I'd love to see a great film focusing on just the trinity done well. Warner had the most famous and iconic superheroes in comicbook history and pissed it all down the drain, especially with BvS. They can never have that awesome hero shot The Avengers took years to earn, and that line-up - in terms of recognition and cultural impact - pales into insignificance to the trinity.
Except Justice League does have its own hero shot, and it does work in the scope of the movie. I mean, I don't think either JL or Avengers are "good" movies per se, but while Avengers is the superior film, JL still works, despite its many flaws.
 

Davroth

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I basically lost hope in the cinematic DC movies. After Wonder Woman I thought it could be salvaged, but with Justice League out, that seems like a fluke. Luckily there's the animated ones already. And their Suicide Squad and Justice League movies were great!
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Hawki said:
Don't agree. The DCEU isn't some paragon of quality, but the only film I can call a "dumpster fire" is BvS.
So MoS, BvS, Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman and Justice League represent a coherently realised, well thought out cinematic universe? And not some kind of braindead, reactionary, defined-by-boardrooms creative failure?

I've not seen Suicide Squad, but I've had it spoilered to bits and I'm fairly sure I'll despise it. At best I think I might enjoy some moments in JL, but overall continue to facepalm as with the rest of the series.

JL's opening box office was a disaster when taking into account its grossly bloated budget, and I understand their openings have kept dropping after, I think, BvS? For JL - 'Warner's Avengers' - to be one of the worst performing in the series is a humiliation. So yeah, dumpster fire seems an apt description.

So even if I agreed with the dumpster fire sentiment, what's the point of rebooting it?
As I said; to do it - and especially the trinity - justice league. Perhaps they don't need nine years off, given when it's done well a quickly turned around recast-reboot of a franchise can work, as Homecoming proved (I've not seen it yet, but by all accounts it was a commercial and critical success).

1) I'm not complaining, but there was no obligation to reboot the Batman films after Batman and Robin. Ever heard of Batman Triumphant, how it would have returned to the tone of the Burton films? Creatively speaking, there was no reason to reboot the films.
Er, isn't Chris Nolan directing his own take a pretty spectacularly huge reason to reboot? As oppose to another from Schumacher?

I personally dislike all the other Batman films, so any return to Burton's lopsided, puddle shallow vision would've been fairly terrible in my eyes. Batman Begins and TDK were veritable genre revelations.

Everyone and their mother knows the origin stories of Batman and Superman (one piece of credit I can give the DCEU is that it thankfully skips a Batman origin story, and wisely goes with a veteran Batman), and Wonder Woman is the best film in the bunch.
Re the underlined; 'wisdom' is meaningless if the idea is executed poorly. This Batman's better at CrossFit than detecting...

What's the point of doing another Wonder Woman origin movie when the one we have is pretty decent?
As you said, you don't necessarily need to do conventional origins at all. MCU Spidey's debut was way after all the power/responsibility chitchats, and Homecoming did incredibly well.

Gadot's--- kinda good in the role... but she's still a fairly two dimensional actor with an incredibly limited range, and for me Wonder Woman had a lot of posturing in it, but little of it rang true (some of the editing and timing of the trench sequence is awful, but generally that's one of Gal as Diana's best moments). I still feel someone like Jaime Alexander would've done better, and feck knows the MCU were completely wasting her.

Either way, one option's to retain Cavill and Gadot (I'm not sold on her entirely, but clearly she's been immensely popular), and maaaaaaaybe Affleck, provided he bothers to give a shit this time (I've only heard he seems rather disconnected and bored in JL), and 'fix' the DCEU in one big Flashpoint-esque event.

I mean, that worked great for Fox's X-Men...

...okay it really didn't [other than somehow allowing Logan to get made], but it could work. I think the MCU's one of the most impressive feats in mass-market cinema history, but even it needs some fresh ideas and risks, which it'll hopefully take after Infinity War. I think audiences are now comicbook/superhero savvy enough to accept some audacious reworkings, and that's a far better bet than to just limp on as the DCEU's currently doing. It is Gotham City as described by Neeson-al'Ghul in Batman Begins.

Cut out the dead wood, ditch actors who can't seem to be arsed, and set up a major arc worth a damn (it's rather sheepishly ironic the DCEU is ostensibly mirroring the MCU's 'giant genocidal lunatic from space' arc given the creative history re Thanos and Darkseid). Retcon the fuck out of it, and do it with some real flair. That would be something the MCU's not done yet, so Warner have lots of reasons to double down on that kind of in-'verse retconning.

Warner confirmed they have an adaptation bearing the Flashpoint title in the works, but I'd put money on it not being what I feel it needs to be.

Except Justice League does have its own hero shot, and it does work in the scope of the movie. I mean, I don't think either JL or Avengers are "good" movies per se, but while Avengers is the superior film, JL still works, despite its many flaws.
Oh c'mon... An iconic hero shot cannot exist in a mediocre film where the general defence of it is 'Eh, it's not terrible/It's good enough'. A Justice League film should be entire dimensions ahead of 'good enough'.

The hero shot in The Avengers was a kind of pop-cultural milestone and watershed moment. Any hero shot in a production disaster like JL (with so divisive a take on key characters) isn't 'earnt' as the 360 in the streets of NYC of the Avengers was. In a way that shot was the culmination of the MCU up to that point - and it worked so well because it more or less felt like a triumphant moment of 'Well I never - they actually pulled it off'.

Imagine that for DC's trinity, after years of careful, well thought out build-up and rock solid films. That's what the fans of these characters deserved, and they did not get it.
 

Hawki

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Darth Rosenberg said:
So MoS, BvS, Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman and Justice League represent a coherently realised, well thought out cinematic universe? And not some kind of braindead, reactionary, defined-by-boardrooms creative failure?
Can I take a third option that exists between those two extremes?

Darth Rosenberg said:
As I said; to do it - and especially the trinity - justice league. Perhaps they don't need nine years off, given when it's done well a quickly turned around recast-reboot of a franchise can work, as Homecoming proved (I've not seen it yet, but by all accounts it was a commercial and critical success).
You've not seen Homecoming yet it "proved?" something?

Well, anyway, I like Homecoming. It's my #1 MCU film (and one of the four genuinely good MCU films I can name), and #3 Spidey film. That said, it's an MCU film first and a Spider-Man film second.

Darth Rosenberg said:
Er, isn't Chris Nolan directing his own take a pretty spectacularly huge reason to reboot? As oppose to another from Schumacher?
1) You could get a different director from Schumacher. Even if you got Nolan, you could do a continuation rather than a reboot (I'm not complaining that it was rebooted, I just don't think it was the only avenue available.

2) Nolan directing a film isn't much of a seller for me nowadays. I can't comment on his pre-Batman films, but his post-Batman films...bleh. Even Dark Knight Rises is easily the weakest installment of his trilogy.

Darth Rosenberg said:
Batman Begins and TDK were veritable genre revelations.
But I do agree there.

Darth Rosenberg said:
Oh c'mon... An iconic hero shot cannot exist in a mediocre film where the general defence of it is 'Eh, it's not terrible/It's good enough'. A Justice League film should be entire dimensions ahead of 'good enough'.
Except it was done in The Avengers, which was also a mediocre film, so...
 

laggyteabag

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Samtemdo8 said:
Laggyteabag said:
I mean, If I recall correctly, wasn't the Snyder cut deemed to be "unwatchable", by early viewers?

I'd probably watch the Snyder cut out of sheer hilarity, but I wouldn't go into it expecting a better version of Justice League.

As far as I am concerned, the only thing that can save DC's film lineup at this point, is a straight up reboot. Keep Gal Gadot, though. She's cool.
THIS WHOLE THING WAS A REBOOT FROM GREEN LANTERN 2008!!!!

Are you implying to me that Green Lantern 2008 was actually a good movie and that they should have continued on from there?
Uhhhhhhhhh, no?

I didn't even mention The Green Lantern - in fact, I forgot that film even existed, especially seeing as I never watched it in the first place.

Some pretty impressive logical gymnastics on display, there.

(Although I do find it funny that 2011's Green Lantern film was scored the same as Suicide Squad and is 1% lower than BvS on Rotten Tomatoes.)

Im just saying that the Snyder-verse of DC is just so goofed up right now.

There aren't any stakes, the superheroes are dumb, Superman just trumps everyone, a big-bad villain has barely been established, and we barely know who any are the characters are - aside from what we can assume from their counterparts from other media.

They've just done a poor job with this universe, and these characters deserve better.

And hey, we have seen 3 Spiderman since 2002. I see no reason as to why they can't just hit the reset button again. I'd much prefer that, than to watch DC drag their characters through more sub-par films, and watch this shambles dig itself into a deeper, darker hole (though it will continue to be hilarious).
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Laggyteabag said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Laggyteabag said:
I mean, If I recall correctly, wasn't the Snyder cut deemed to be "unwatchable", by early viewers?

I'd probably watch the Snyder cut out of sheer hilarity, but I wouldn't go into it expecting a better version of Justice League.

As far as I am concerned, the only thing that can save DC's film lineup at this point, is a straight up reboot. Keep Gal Gadot, though. She's cool.
THIS WHOLE THING WAS A REBOOT FROM GREEN LANTERN 2008!!!!

Are you implying to me that Green Lantern 2008 was actually a good movie and that they should have continued on from there?
Uhhhhhhhhh, no?

I didn't even mention The Green Lantern - in fact, I forgot that film even existed, especially seeing as I never watched it in the first place.

Some pretty impressive logical gymnastics on display, there.

(Although I do find it funny that 2011's Green Lantern film was scored the same as Suicide Squad and is 1% lower than BvS on Rotten Tomatoes.)

Im just saying that the Snyder-verse of DC is just so goofed up right now.

There aren't any stakes, the superheroes are dumb, Superman just trumps everyone, a big-bad villain has barely been established, and we barely know who any are the characters are - aside from what we can assume from their counterparts from other media.

They've just done a poor job with this universe, and these characters deserve better.

And hey, we have seen 3 Spiderman since 2002. I see no reason as to why they can't just hit the reset button again. I'd much prefer that, than to watch DC drag their characters through more sub-par films, and watch this shambles dig itself into a deeper, darker hole (though it will continue to be hilarious).
What makes you think another reset would result in better movies? For all I know we might get a Amazing Spiderman rather than a Spiderman Homecoming.
 

jademunky

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I cannot imagine a Snyder cut would be all that much better the what we got now. Maybe fewer quips, but the underlying problems with the WB DCU would still be there.

Really, they should try going small. Give us a Booster Gold or Oracle movie, do some world-building, make us care about what happens. Then, when something shows up that our smaller heroes can't handle, THEN you give us the big heroes.

Too late for that now but still.
 

Darth Rosenberg

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Hawki said:
Can I take a third option that exists between those two extremes?
When looking at the budgets, IP's, potential, expectations, and the competition? Nnn---nope.

You've not seen Homecoming yet it "proved?" something?
I've never ran in front of a train, but I know it'd hurt... Homecoming demonstrably proved a fairly quick turn around on a recast-reboot can work. It doesn't really matter what my own opinion of it might be (I'm not keen on Spider-Man in general, so I doubt it'll get anywhere near my personal faves in the MCU).

1) You could get a different director from Schumacher. Even if you got Nolan, you could do a continuation rather than a reboot (I'm not complaining that it was rebooted, I just don't think it was the only avenue available.
If something's not working, then doing something different is kindof a given. Schumacher killed the property cinematically, so the best thing was for a long break and a clean slate. Two things the DCEU could benefit from immensely.

2) Nolan directing a film isn't much of a seller for me nowadays. I can't comment on his pre-Batman films, but his post-Batman films...bleh. Even Dark Knight Rises is easily the weakest installment of his trilogy.
Well, it might not for you, but it is for the industry and pop-culture in general, frankly. No one else is doing quite what he's doing. Someone like Villeneuve is too defiantly, er, creatively sincere, let's say, to be mass-market, so Nolan's one of the only real directors worth a damn in the mainstream.

I think everyone would rather take Nolan's sweeping scope and style than someone like Bay, and Abrams is pretty generic, despite his clear competency. There are a handful of other decent directors, but none that have carved out anything as influential or as highly praised a body of work.

Except it was done in The Avengers, which was also a mediocre film, so...
Oh c'mon, that's just quaint contrarianism.

Samtemdo8 said:
I just want a Superman and Batman that actually fights and kills thier enemies when they have to.
Do you have some kind of murder fetish, or summat? Why do you seem to need to see death and killing from superheroes?
 

bartholen_v1legacy

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Well that's good. It'll save you from seeing the most insipid, bland and forgettable superhero movie of possibly the entire decade.

I'll say this: the approach taken for Man of Steel was okay for maybe one movie, or a movie trilogy with Superman, and precisely Superman only. But as a template for the tone of an entire movieverse it was completely disastrous. It's like Man of Steel is a big, massive steak. Sure, I love steak, I'll eat that! And BvS is another massive steak, but this time it's been slightly burnt. Are you still that hungry for steak? Maybe, maybe not. Then you hear rumors of there being even more steak cooking in the kitchen (in this analogy the DC movies teased in BvS). Then Suicide Squad trudges along, promising to be yet another massive steak which you're getting sick of at this point. But then the cooks notice the customers are getting sick of steak, and add gummi bears and ice cream to make it different or something, and the result is exactly as pleasant as you'd expect. This analogy is dragging on, but I'll conclude with that Justice League is like a stew made out of burnt steak, gummi bears, ice cream, croutons and a salmon salad: a complete mess that tries to be everything, and as a result is nothing.

And I still can't believe they didn't just make a Man of Steel sequel with the name "Man of Tomorrow" and introduce Batman, and his eventual distrust of Superman in that. It was so obvious.
 

Avnger

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Samtemdo8 said:
I just want a Superman and Batman that actually fights and kills thier enemies when they have to.
So wait... you mean you don't actually want Superman and Batman then. Because supes and the b-man, as known in the public conscious, don't do that. I'm sure you'll be able to drag up a comic book or 2 where they did kill someone, but that's not "who they are" according to popular culture.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Avnger said:
Samtemdo8 said:
I just want a Superman and Batman that actually fights and kills thier enemies when they have to.
So wait... you mean you don't actually want Superman and Batman then. Because supes and the b-man, as known in the public conscious, don't do that. I'm sure you'll be able to drag up a comic book or 2 where they did kill someone, but that's not "who they are" according to popular culture.
Fuck "who they are" according to popular culture. Fuck if that's what they are in the Comic Books.

I wanna see Superman go Dragon Ball Z on his enemies and only kill when he has too. I wanna see him lead an army of other Superheroes (as in more than 4 other people) against Darkseid and his army of New Gods in a War of the Gods.

I am getting tired of seeing Superman being pitted against Lex Luthor, I want Superheroes to actually use their godlike powers to do godlike things.
 

Kenbo Slice

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Samtemdo8 said:
Avnger said:
Samtemdo8 said:
I just want a Superman and Batman that actually fights and kills thier enemies when they have to.
So wait... you mean you don't actually want Superman and Batman then. Because supes and the b-man, as known in the public conscious, don't do that. I'm sure you'll be able to drag up a comic book or 2 where they did kill someone, but that's not "who they are" according to popular culture.
Fuck "who they are" according to popular culture. Fuck if that's what they are in the Comic Books.

I wanna see Superman go Dragon Ball Z on his enemies and only kill when he has too. I wanna see him lead an army of other Superheroes (as in more than 4 other people) against Darkseid and his army of New Gods in a War of the Gods.

I am getting tired of seeing Superman being pitted against Lex Luthor, I want Superheroes to actually use their godlike powers to do godlike things.
There's a reason the best Superman stories don't involve him using brute strength to win.
 

Hawki

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Darth Rosenberg said:
Oh c'mon, that's just quaint contrarianism.
If we're defining contrarianism has having an unpopular/opposing/minority opinion for the sake of it, then no it isn't.

I've never liked The Avengers. I've never considered it to be a good film. I didn't develop that opinion for the sake of it, that opinion came up from actually watching it. I can accept I'm in the minority there, but I'm not going to lie to myself or others for the sake of conforming.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Hawki said:
Darth Rosenberg said:
Oh c'mon, that's just quaint contrarianism.
If we're defining contrarianism has having an unpopular/opposing/minority opinion for the sake of it, then no it isn't.

I've never liked The Avengers. I've never considered it to be a good film. I didn't develop that opinion for the sake of it, that opinion came up from actually watching it. I can accept I'm in the minority there, but I'm not going to lie to myself or others for the sake of conforming.
I have only seen the Avengers once. I never bothered to watch it again on TV if it passes on FX or something.

Heck I haven't seen X-Men 1999 for YEARS now.

Infact I never go out of my way to re-watch any Superhero movies with the exception of Batman v Superman.
 

COMaestro

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Samtemdo8 said:
Hawki said:
Darth Rosenberg said:
Oh c'mon, that's just quaint contrarianism.
If we're defining contrarianism has having an unpopular/opposing/minority opinion for the sake of it, then no it isn't.

I've never liked The Avengers. I've never considered it to be a good film. I didn't develop that opinion for the sake of it, that opinion came up from actually watching it. I can accept I'm in the minority there, but I'm not going to lie to myself or others for the sake of conforming.
I have only seen the Avengers once. I never bothered to watch it again on TV if it passes on FX or something.

Infact I never go out of my way to re-watch any Superhero movies with the exception of Batman v Superman.
And I find that amazing since there is so much wrong with BvS. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad there are people who can find enjoyment in it, and I won't deny some of the action sequences are pretty entertaining, but it's full of so much nonsense that I find it difficult to watch. And I even picked it up on Blu-ray so that my brother-in-law could see it before we all went to see Justice League, which even with its flaws was a far better film than BvS in my opinion.

I could go into all the problems, but that's been done to death by this point, and they are obviously things you do not see as flaws. You apparently want a Superman that's more in lines with the Injustice comic, and that's fine, but while it's fun as an Elseworlds storyline, it is apparently not what a majority of Superman fans want to see on the big screen.

I prefer a symbol of hope and an ideal for humanity to strive for over some conqueror who mows down anyone who really gets in his way or represents any kind of significant threat to him. And if he does have to kill someone, as he and Batman both have rarely done in the comics, then I want to see repercussions for it. In MoS, Superman lets out a great scream after killing Zod, but then the act of killing him is never touched upon again. I want some mental anguish, a drive to do better, etc, something to show it affected him.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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COMaestro said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Hawki said:
Darth Rosenberg said:
Oh c'mon, that's just quaint contrarianism.
If we're defining contrarianism has having an unpopular/opposing/minority opinion for the sake of it, then no it isn't.

I've never liked The Avengers. I've never considered it to be a good film. I didn't develop that opinion for the sake of it, that opinion came up from actually watching it. I can accept I'm in the minority there, but I'm not going to lie to myself or others for the sake of conforming.
I have only seen the Avengers once. I never bothered to watch it again on TV if it passes on FX or something.

Infact I never go out of my way to re-watch any Superhero movies with the exception of Batman v Superman.
And I find that amazing since there is so much wrong with BvS. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad there are people who can find enjoyment in it, and I won't deny some of the action sequences are pretty entertaining, but it's full of so much nonsense that I find it difficult to watch. And I even picked it up on Blu-ray so that my brother-in-law could see it before we all went to see Justice League, which even with its flaws was a far better film than BvS in my opinion.

I could go into all the problems, but that's been done to death by this point, and they are obviously things you do not see as flaws. You apparently want a Superman that's more in lines with the Injustice comic, and that's fine, but while it's fun as an Elseworlds storyline, it is apparently not what a majority of Superman fans want to see on the big screen.

I prefer a symbol of hope and an ideal for humanity to strive for over some conqueror who mows down anyone who really gets in his way or represents any kind of significant threat to him. And if he does have to kill someone, as he and Batman both have rarely done in the comics, then I want to see repercussions for it. In MoS, Superman lets out a great scream after killing Zod, but then the act of killing him is never touched upon again. I want some mental anguish, a drive to do better, etc, something to show it affected him.
I don't want Superman being a dictator thats for sure.

I don't want Batman to be seen as the true leader and face of DC again.
 

jademunky

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Samtemdo8 said:
jademunky said:
Samtemdo8 said:
I just want a Superman and Batman that actually fights and kills thier enemies when they have to.
So you want Watchmen?
Yes to a degree.
But Superman!

I don't know what else to say here, unless he is
killing Darkseid with the power of singing
Supes doesn't murder people. Except for that other time
Christopher Reeve totally murdered Zod back in the 70's
Anyywaaaaayyyy.... you might have a point there.