I don't understand the praise for Evangelion

[NihilSinLulz]

Firstly, I should admit that I'm not the biggest anime fan. I love animation as a medium, its just that a lot of anime I've watched so far tends to go into the same tropes I loathe. The worst among them imo being dialogue vomit, fan service, and weirdness for the sake of weird (even anime series that I enjoyed for the most part such as Full Metal Alchemist, Ghost in the Shell, and Cowboy Beebop suffered from these tropes to varying degrees).

Over the last few weeks I found my luck and interest in anime changing as I came across the work of Mamoru Hosoda (Summer Wars, Wolf Children), Attack on Titan, and the dream film that absolutely put Inception to shame--Paprika. All of these works are excellent.

On recommendation of a friend, I watched the first Evangelion film (I had tried watching the show way back when, but it had put me to sleep) and found it meh. It wasn't terrible, I mean I really liked the animation style and the Eva/Angel designs (I absolutely loved the animation on Ramiel), though I did find everything else lacking.

My friend had sold the show to me as an intellectual film--one that had a ton of depth and thought behind its concepts, themes, and characters. I disagree. I think my friend confused depth with word-vomit. I mean one of the main things that annoyed me was that the characters would monologue about all sorts of tangents making the conversations feel bloated and unnatural.

Its like me and friend were discussing our backgrounds and he told me his father is German and I replied by going into the reason why the Weimar Republic failed complete with historical dates and events despite none of it having nothing to do with the topic. That's what watching Evangelion felt like--an interaction between ready to burst plot sponges ready to drench the viewer with endless dialogue rather than allowing the world-building happen naturally like in a lot of other films.

So that's my main problem with Evangelion. I mean I have way more, like what an unlikeable little turd Shinji is the entire world seems to revolve around him. Or how the Christian iconography feels too much like meaningless decals put there just 'cause the creators felt it looked cool rather than having any actual meaning to the text. But I digress.

So...am I just missing something?

 

[TakerFoxx]

The thing about Evangelion is that when it came out, there weren't a lot of shows that deconstructed the Giant Robot genre. I mean, there were probably a couple, but not to the degree that Eva did. Most, if not all, were all about how awesome piloting a bigass robot to fight monsters or other robots was and always had heroic characters who saved the day and had a happy ending. But Evangelion was so brutally not anything people were expecting that it took everyone by surprise, and the ending was so screwed up that it stuck in people's minds (the fact that the show's creator was literally going through a mental and emotional breakdown during the show's run probably helped). Now days such genre deconstructions are pretty commonplace that someone going into it now probably wouldn't be impressed, but those shows all owe something to Evangelion, which was one of the first to really break the mold, albeit unintentionally.

 

[Tono Makt]

So...am I just missing something?

While I do agree to some degree, and I really don't like Eva... you are missing a few things.

First, it was fairly revolutionary. It was a Giant Mecha Fighting Monsters that wasn't about Giant Mecha Fighting Monsters - it was a character drama that just happened to have the characters be part of an organization that used giant mechas to fight monsters. Each character had depth and layers that were pretty much unheard of in that sort of Anime, the story was complex (obtuse, if you prefer. I do, but that's toeing the line of trolling Eva fans so I'm going to go with complex) and the resolution was far more of a downer than normal.

Second, you mentioned the Film - and most fans are fans of the TV show, which went on for 26 episodes before the movie. (or 24; the exact number isn't important) This gave fans of the show something like 600 minutes to fall in love with things, not 90-120ish. So trying to judge the amount of Eva love only from the movie is unfair. You're missing a huge amount of stuff.

Overall I don't care for Eva. I have a hate for all of the characters except Pen-Pen. When I first saw it, I was given the series by a friend who told me it was the best thing ever; I ended up watching the entire run (on VHS!) in almost a single sitting just so I could have actual fact as ammunition to scream at him for recommending the series to me. I didn't want to say "This sucks!", I wanted to say "Shinji, over the course of the ENTIRE SERIES! is little more than a whiny biatch who is too cowardly to stand up to his father except to whine and pout! The woman he lives with is a drunk who is doing everything she can to act like a teenager, even though she's partially responsible for trying to protect the entire planet! And let's not even get started on the absolute insanity that is Rei.".

But yeah, you're missing quite a bit if you're judging solely from the movie and not from the (original) TV series.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

No, you're not missing anything, you don't need to force yourself to like it. Don't listen to the legions of nerds trying to convince you of its "religious subtext" (*pfffrthfth*) or "deep messages" (*prrrhhfhfhahahaha*). If it doesn't appeal to you then that's it, and it'll probably never do so.

It's the same as with The Godfather, Citizen Kane and such: revolutionary for its time, but doesn't really hold up that well against the contemporary competitors, where the things that made it special have become commonplace. I would actually recommend watching the original series over the remake films. While the series isn't that impressive, it at least holds somewhat together. The second Evangelion film, 2.0, I really liked, but it diverges too much from the original to really fit into its canon. The third remake is an insulting mess that you shouldn't subject yourself to. It's a fucking terrible film.

I can understand why people like Evangelion, and IMO the manga is actually excellent. In fact, read it instead to see what the original series could have been. The series and the movies are "meh" to me at best, but I can see their appeal. Except for 3.0. How can anyone defend that piece of anal discharge?

 

[Asita]

Yep. If you're looking for meaning in Evangelion you have to look beyond the philosophical tangents and religious iconography. That's window dressing, a part of the premise but not much else. What you want to look at are the characters and their relations. The entire cast is messed up to one degree or another. Rei's a girl with very little understanding of human nature and possessed of a psychological dependence on Shinji's father, Asuka's a braggart whose abrasive personality is in effect a coping mechanism for a deep trauma and sense of insecurity, Gendo's an emotionally abusive father who could reasonably be described as just a step or two away from suicidal depression, Misato...possibly a surprisingly competent alcoholic given how much she apparently drinks while off the job, she has her own emotional baggage and is in many respects the aftermath of a child soldier...and then we get to Shinji...a kid with abandonment issues, cripplingly low self-esteem, self-loathing, possible avoidant personality disorder, no friends to speak of, and is thrust into a situation he doesn't understand to risk life and limb for a world he thinks hates him and would have been better off without him. This is where our analysis starts.

The meat of this is perhaps embodied in the hedgehog's dilemma. At their core, each and every one of these characters deeply yearns to understand and to be understood, to have an intimate relation with other human beings, but due to their own insecurities, issues and coping mechanisms, they're all incapable of doing so, partially because they are afraid of being hurt by others and partially because their own actions can or do harm others themselves. They're effectively terrified of the very thing they desire and suffer both from their yearning and their attempts to alleviate it. In many respects this series can be said to focus on loneliness.

Even the monstrous angels can be said to fall into that through their exceptionally strong and weaponized AT Fields (the very things in the series that allow beings to exist as individuals). That the angels' fields are effectively force fields very strongly implies that they are incredibly isolated individuals, to a far greater extent than even the most avoidant members of the cast. Perhaps fittingly, very little is ever confirmed about them, leaving their motives and nature largely unknown if not outright unknowable. And as we cannot understand them, so too do they fail to understand us, leading inevitably to violent confrontation, a rejection of each others existence. Worse still, the threat cannot truly be dealt with until that same isolation represented by the AT field is breached...but by then it's too late, as we're committed to each other's destruction (Just food for thought there).

Point being, look at the characters, not the 'obvious' [faux-]symbolism. Look at how Shinji relates (or rather, fails to) with others. What does it tell you that he's almost always isolating himself from those around him with his earbuds and melancholy? What do you see in how he and Gendo act around each other? How Gendo and Rei act? What you see in Misato's actions? Et cetera, et cetera...

 

[Flutterguy]

I could only ever get into animes that had something new to offer me. Psycho Pass, NHK, anything by Miyazaki. It's a short list for sure. I can't get into an anime for the sake of watching an anime, I always loved the art-style but even as a kid I just couldn't get into Dragonball or the Street Fighter anime.

I'd say you are lucky to have a high-standard.

 

[Bertylicious]

I liked it but the pedo overtones were a bit full on. I quite enjoyed Gunslinger Girl as a, what did that clever bloke above me say, deconstruction of the themes I found a bit weird for a similar reason.

I guess that is the appeal? It makes you think whilst showing you things hitting each other really hard.

 

[Someone Depressing]

I don't dislike shows that are weird just because they can be. I actually rather like those shows.

as for Evangelion, because it had a lot of crosses (even though the animators said they just thought it looked cool, and they wouldn't be accused of Jesus Taboo because less than 1% of Japanese are Christian) and it deconstructed Giant Robots. Except it also added in a lot of whiny, dumb bullshit that added nothing. I suppose a lot of anime otakus were simply going through a rought spot?

Looking back on it, many people agree that it was pretty bad. But many hold it in their heart. I watched some of it on Carton Network. And Sailor Moon. It was not a good introduction to anime.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

You're not really missing anything. Asita hits the nail on the head for the most part with the characters. They're basically all messed up individuals doing even MORE messed up things in pursuit of saving humanity from something that, if what we see in the story is to be believed, they brought upon themselves. Basically at least some of these people are cleaning up their own mess.

It's not a bad series, the themes and things become a bit heavy-handed and the moments of levity are far too brief oftentimes. There's also no sense of "normal" in terms of the characters beyond the secondary figures who tend to be involved so little that any possible juxtaposition, respite, or understanding of what's going on mentally and emotionally with the main cast is kind of lost. It wasn't hard for me, after I'd run through the series, to see the issues various characters had. But it....well....it kind of reminds me of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

If you've never read it, the ship the main characters travel on is inhabited by AI that have human-like personalities. Almost all of them are incredibly cheerful to the point of being annoying. By contrast the robot Marvin is depressing and pessimistic to the point of being annoying. All the characters, at one point or another, become exasperated with both sides of the proverbial coin: both with Marvin constantly whining about how unfair and terrible everything is, or the main computer being so overwhelmingly cheery and aggressively helpful. To me it felt like the point Adams was trying to make is that both ends of the spectrum will drive you nuts, and ultimately it's easier to deal with someone who has their ups and their downs over someone who's always one or the other.

For me Evangelion, when it's not some of the fun stuff mid-series, is like Marvin. It's just unrelentingly depressing, all the characters just have SO MUCH BAGGAGE and it's SO IMPORTANT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT and it's like okay guys. I get it. I get that these people are messed up in the head. Now enough with the trauma and the sad-faces for a bit. Okay you can take a break with the heavy-handed psychological crap. Oh COME ON PEOPLE! Someone CRACK A SMILE!

Someone here once mentioned about Kishimoto writing Naruto and his apparent idea of character development is to make a character and then show ONE point in the past in a flashback where they were once sad. I feel like Evangelion is much the same thing: they make characters and if they DON'T have psychological issues, they must be background stock/cannon-fodder. Because clearly the ONLY good kind of characters are damaged and disturbed ones. I just got tired of seeing it by the end of the series. I mean for the love of christ Kaji was probably the only person out of the cast who seemed even remotely close to being kinda-sorta okay with the person that he is and we all know what happened to him. Nope, can't have people who are even BEGINNING to be quasi-normal people in this series.

Anyway...yeah, you're not missing anything. In my experience with fans of it, it's been like the PBR of anime. Anime Hipsters like to tout it about and proclaim that it's deep and complex and use it as a barrier to separate them from the people who are into anime now that it's all mainstream.

 

[Axolotl]

So you watched part of the remake and you're disappointed you don't see why the original is lauded?

That's like watching the first season of Enterprise and complaining that Star Trek sucks.

 

[NihilSinLulz]

So you watched part of the remake and you're disappointed you don't see why the original is lauded?

That's like watching the first season of Enterprise and complaining that Star Trek sucks.

As mentioned, I tried watching a few episodes of the original series but I was bored into a coma making further progress impossible.

The first two movies have gotten pretty good reviews and many-a reviewer promised it had slimmed down the series, trimming the fat. Its just a shame that there was never much under that fat imo.

 

[Axolotl]

So you watched part of the remake and you're disappointed you don't see why the original is lauded?

That's like watching the first season of Enterprise and complaining that Star Trek sucks.

As mentioned, I tried watching a few episodes of the original series but I was bored into a coma making further progress impossible.

The first two movies have gotten pretty good reviews and many-a reviewer promised it had slimmed down the series, trimming the fat. Its just a shame that there was never much under that fat imo.

Well it's hard to explain what makes something great of you haven't even seen it. The original series juggles a lot of balls some of which don't mean anything and some of which are deliberately impenetrable and many of which are very unlikely to make the transition to the remake. If you think the remake serves to show the story better then frankly you've got the wrong end of the stick. It's not a remake it's a victory lap, they raised the bar for the genre and they made a bunch of films to remind everyone of that. If you found boring then that's fair enough but you can't expect to expect to understand Ulysses if you give up 50 pages in. The show at the beginning and the end are pretty much totally different shows,. It starts off with the comedy mecha action and then starts with the deconstructive stuff (some of which flat out isn't in the remake) and the psychological themes and by the end it's given up constraints of anything resembling a traditional narrative.

If you don't want to watch it then that's fine most people get by just fine without but demanding an explanation for a show you refuse to watch is both futile and just slightly bizarre.

 

[Coakle]

It is understandable if you don't enjoy it. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

That being said, Eva is one of the most influential anime around. I'm trying to do some research on this now, so I'll stick to the cliff-notes version. So I don't end up biting my tongue.

It exposed a large number of 17-25 year old boys to what was known as 'pure literature.' ie. Deeply personal, semi-autobiographical stories about the author. A common theme was a sense of isolation, loneliness, melancholy, and ennui.

Spoiler: Examples of pure literature:

No Longer Human - Osamu Dazai
Kokoro - Natsume Sōseki
Grave of the Fireflies - Akiyuki Nosaka
Catcher in the Rye - J. D. Salinger
Against the Grain - Joris-Karl Huysmans - Famous Decadence writer
Flowers of Evil - Charles Baudelaire (This should ring a bell)

Eva was the first anime of its kind to star a 'pure literature' protagonist. Who would have guessed, Shinji's melancholy and detachment resonated with a large number of young people. The show was largely responsible for launching a movement analogous to the French Decadence Movement among the 17 - 25 year old boys at the time.

This is important to understand, Shinji's journey towards unacceptability enthralled young people. Eva made it clear that the world cannot be saved, but an individual can still save themselves. Shinji's answers to questions like, "What?s wrong with me, thinking only of saving myself?" is on the right track.


This led to an Otaku schism between pre-Eva and post-Eva Otaku. The Decadence mindset also contributed to the creation of Moe.


Edit: Just for fun, here's some excerpts from "Against the Grain" and "The World God Only Knows" anime.

Spoiler: Against the Grain

Imagination could easily be substituted for the vulgar realities of things.

-Joris-Karl Huysmans


Reality is just garbage/a crappy game!

-Keima Katsuragi (The World God Only Knows)


Nature had had her day... this eternal, driveling old woman is no longer admired by true artists, and the moment has come to replace her by artifice.

-Joris-Karl Huysmans


True, I've given up on the real world, however I haven't given up on myself. The world doesn't get to decide whether my life is boring, fun, or ordinary coz that?s my decision to make.

-Keima Katsuragi (The World God Only Knows)


Yeah, Joris-Karl Huysmans would be all about 2D girls.

 

[Coakle]

So you watched part of the remake and you're disappointed you don't see why the original is lauded?

That's like watching the first season of Enterprise and complaining that Star Trek sucks.

As mentioned, I tried watching a few episodes of the original series but I was bored into a coma making further progress impossible.

The first two movies have gotten pretty good reviews and many-a reviewer promised it had slimmed down the series, trimming the fat. Its just a shame that there was never much under that fat imo.

Well it's hard to explain what makes something great of you haven't even seen it. The original series juggles a lot of balls some of which don't mean anything and some of which are deliberately impenetrable and many of which are very unlikely to make the transition to the remake. If you think the remake serves to show the story better then frankly you've got the wrong end of the stick. It's not a remake it's a victory lap, they raised the bar for the genre and they made a bunch of films to remind everyone of that. If you found boring then that's fair enough but you can't expect to expect to understand Ulysses if you give up 50 pages in. The show at the beginning and the end are pretty much totally different shows,. It starts off with the comedy mecha action and then starts with the deconstructive stuff (some of which flat out isn't in the remake) and the psychological themes and by the end it's given up constraints of anything resembling a traditional narrative.

If you don't want to watch it then that's fine most people get by just fine without but demanding an explanation for a show you refuse to watch is both futile and just slightly bizarre.

I don't think a certain curiosity about Eva is weird. It's one of those touchstones that come up a lot whenever anime gets mentioned.

People can be interested and ask questions about the significance or reception of Dante's "The Divine Comedy" without needing to read the actual book. I don't think the OP wants to be convinced that he was wrong to be bored by Eva, he just wants to know why people praise and talk about Eva to an certain extent.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Yep. If you're looking for meaning in Evangelion you have to look beyond the philosophical tangents and religious iconography. That's window dressing, a part of the premise but not much else. What you want to look at are the characters and their relations. The entire cast is messed up to one degree or another. Rei's a girl with very little understanding of human nature and possessed of a psychological dependence on Shinji's father, Asuka's a braggart whose abrasive personality is in effect a coping mechanism for a deep trauma and sense of insecurity, Gendo's an emotionally abusive father who could reasonably be described as just a step or two away from suicidal depression, Misato...possibly a surprisingly competent alcoholic given how much she apparently drinks while off the job, she has her own emotional baggage and is in many respects the aftermath of a child soldier...and then we get to Shinji...a kid with abandonment issues, cripplingly low self-esteem, self-loathing, possible avoidant personality disorder, no friends to speak of, and is thrust into a situation he doesn't understand to risk life and limb for a world he thinks hates him and would have been better off without him. This is where our analysis starts.

The meat of this is perhaps embodied in the hedgehog's dilemma. At their core, each and every one of these characters deeply yearns to understand and to be understood, to have an intimate relation with other human beings, but due to their own insecurities, issues and coping mechanisms, they're all incapable of doing so, partially because they are afraid of being hurt by others and partially because their own actions can or do harm others themselves. They're effectively terrified of the very thing they desire and suffer both from their yearning and their attempts to alleviate it. In many respects this series can be said to focus on loneliness.

Even the monstrous angels can be said to fall into that through their exceptionally strong and weaponized AT Fields (the very things in the series that allow beings to exist as individuals). That the angels' fields are effectively force fields very strongly implies that they are incredibly isolated individuals, to a far greater extent than even the most avoidant members of the cast. Perhaps fittingly, very little is ever confirmed about them, leaving their motives and nature largely unknown if not outright unknowable. And as we cannot understand them, so too do they fail to understand us, leading inevitably to violent confrontation, a rejection of each others existence. Worse still, the threat cannot truly be dealt with until that same isolation represented by the AT field is breached...but by then it's too late, as we're committed to each other's destruction (Just food for thought there).

Point being, look at the characters, not the 'obvious' [faux-]symbolism. Look at how Shinji relates (or rather, fails to) with others. What does it tell you that he's almost always isolating himself from those around him with his earbuds and melancholy? What do you see in how he and Gendo act around each other? How Gendo and Rei act? What you see in Misato's actions? Et cetera, et cetera...

Pretty much this, Also the last two episodes of the series are hotly debated

Spoiler

The Theory is that Shinji learns to be independent and realizes that he shouldn't use other people to define him. This leads to the odd clapping scene

While I will admit that Eva has it head up its ass (though some of it can be due to Anno's depression at the time, I will comment on one thing about the show: the religious "symbolism". It's window dressing but Christianity isn't exactly big in Japan, they are mostly Shinto or Buddhist practitioners. So they treat stuff like the angels and the Kabbalah tree of life as unusual just like how America see other traditions. That said, Anno did do some research; all the angels symbolism is tied to what the angel does (Ramiel, the blue tetrahedron, is the angel of thunder. Zeruel, the angel with the ribbon arms, is the angel of strength. The mind rape one, Arael, is the angel of birds). So while the symbolism is false, they did try to tie the angel's representation into their action.

Regardless, the End of Eva movie was considered a troll moment from Anno due to death threats and vandalism on Gainax HQ. The hospital scene and mental trip Shinji takes are supposedly representation of how Anno views the otaku community ("forced autistics" that objectify women and do not wish to change and expose themselves to the real world).

If you dislike Eva, fine. I will debate with you on the show and what it does right or wrong. That's the great thing about Eva: it's a show that, while it may get worse with time, will continue to be debatable for all time as long as anime stands

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

It is understandable if you don't enjoy it. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

That being said, Eva is one of the most influential anime around. I'm trying to do some research on this now, so I'll stick to the cliff-notes version. So I don't end up biting my tongue.

It exposed a large number of 17-25 year old boys to what was known as 'pure literature.' ie. Deeply personal, semi-autobiographical stories about the author. A common theme was a sense of isolation, loneliness, melancholy, and ennui.

Spoiler: Examples of pure literature:

No Longer Human - Osamu Dazai
Kokoro - Natsume Sōseki
Grave of the Fireflies - Akiyuki Nosaka
Catcher in the Rye - J. D. Salinger
Against the Grain - Joris-Karl Huysmans - Famous Decadence writer
Flowers of Evil - Charles Baudelaire (This should ring a bell)

Eva was the first anime of its kind to star a 'pure literature' protagonist. Who would have guessed, Shinji's melancholy and detachment resonated with a large number of young people. The show was largely responsible for launching a movement analogous to the French Decadence Movement among the 17 - 25 year old boys at the time.

This is important to understand, Shinji's journey towards unacceptability enthralled young people. Eva made it clear that the world cannot be saved, but an individual can still save themselves. Shinji's answers to questions like, "What?s wrong with me, thinking only of saving myself?" is on the right track.


This led to an Otaku schism between pre-Eva and post-Eva Otaku. The Decadence mindset also contributed to the creation of Moe.


Edit: Just for fun, here's some excerpts from "Against the Grain" and "The World God Only Knows" anime.

Spoiler: Against the Grain

Imagination could easily be substituted for the vulgar realities of things.

-Joris-Karl Huysmans


Reality is just garbage/a crappy game!

-Keima Katsuragi (The World God Only Knows)


Nature had had her day... this eternal, driveling old woman is no longer admired by true artists, and the moment has come to replace her by artifice.

-Joris-Karl Huysmans


True, I've given up on the real world, however I haven't given up on myself. The world doesn't get to decide whether my life is boring, fun, or ordinary coz that?s my decision to make.

-Keima Katsuragi (The World God Only Knows)


Yeah, Joris-Karl Huysmans would be all about 2D girls.

Just out of question, do you think people actually use Eva as an excuse to isolate themselves and be more cynical when the last two episodes are an arrangement for reaching out to others and being self confident?

Also, if you think my interpretation of the last two episodes of the series is wrong, what do you think?

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

Well it din't help that you watched the movie, which is basically the first half dozen or so episodes condensed into feature length and in many places diverging from it. (It gets to the stage where the third movie has gone completely off the rails).

The other part is that Evangelion was quite revolutionary for its time and spawned many tropes that still persist in one form or another to this day. If you start with modern works and work your way backwards the older works will inevitably be lesser in some respects as the later examples have expanded on the foundation the older work laid out.

As for Star Trek, if the Original Series doesn't rock your boat try one of the newer series. The Next Generation is like TOS in many respects but Voyager is a rather unique take on the 'to boldly go' theme while Deep Space 9's use of story arcs and use of a fixed location ensured a 'trek' that is a significant deviation from the standard formula. It also introduced some of my favourite characters such as 'totally not a spy' Garak and Martok. The producers likened it to 'a frontier town in space' with a naive doctor, a unscrupulous bar owner engaged in a battle of wits with the grizzled sheriff and more.

 

[NihilSinLulz]

Well it din't help that you watched the movie, which is basically the first half dozen or so episodes condensed into feature length and in many places diverging from it. (It gets to the stage where the third movie has gone completely off the rails).

The other part is that Evangelion was quite revolutionary for its time and spawned many tropes that still persist in one form or another to this day. If you start with modern works and work your way backwards the older works will inevitably be lesser in some respects as the later examples have expanded on the foundation the older work laid out.

I both agree and disagree with this. While what you say is true in most instances, I think the earlier work can in fact be stronger than its spawn. For example: I was both surprised and in love with the 50-60s Japanese cinema period pieces. The idiot with a heart of gold character trope seen in a lot of modern movies and especially anime, can be traced to Kurosawa's The Seven Samurai. Unlike later iterations however, the character makes a lot of sense in that world because he was so carefully crafted.

I think this is also true of pretty much any work of art that endures time. There's just something done right in the piece of art that lesser artists try to appropriate but are denied leaving them with a shoddy and unfitting duplication instead.

As for Star Trek, if the Original Series doesn't rock your boat try one of the newer series. The Next Generation is like TOS in many respects but Voyager is a rather unique take on the 'to boldly go' theme while Deep Space 9's use of story arcs and use of a fixed location ensured a 'trek' that is a significant deviation from the standard formula. It also introduced some of my favourite characters such as 'totally not a spy' Garak and Martok. The producers likened it to 'a frontier town in space' with a naive doctor, a unscrupulous bar owner engaged in a battle of wits with the grizzled sheriff and more.

I loved the original and Next Gen. Though I am saddened that the pilot of the original series was never turned into a show onto itself as its very different in tone from what came after it, as it attempted to tell a serious story that was genuinely interesting.

I had trouble respecting DS9. Yeah the acting and characters were great, but it was effectively and in actuality a Babylon 5 rip-off and that show just had so much more ambition (fun fact: Mass Effect also 'borrowed' heavily from B5).

PS. I'm really enjoying the responses thus far, especially the stuff by Croakie. Keep 'em coming!

 

[Coakle]

It is understandable if you don't enjoy it. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

That being said, Eva is one of the most influential anime around. I'm trying to do some research on this now, so I'll stick to the cliff-notes version. So I don't end up biting my tongue.

It exposed a large number of 17-25 year old boys to what was known as 'pure literature.' ie. Deeply personal, semi-autobiographical stories about the author. A common theme was a sense of isolation, loneliness, melancholy, and ennui.

Spoiler: Examples of pure literature:

No Longer Human - Osamu Dazai
Kokoro - Natsume Sōseki
Grave of the Fireflies - Akiyuki Nosaka
Catcher in the Rye - J. D. Salinger
Against the Grain - Joris-Karl Huysmans - Famous Decadence writer
Flowers of Evil - Charles Baudelaire (This should ring a bell)

Eva was the first anime of its kind to star a 'pure literature' protagonist. Who would have guessed, Shinji's melancholy and detachment resonated with a large number of young people. The show was largely responsible for launching a movement analogous to the French Decadence Movement among the 17 - 25 year old boys at the time.

This is important to understand, Shinji's journey towards unacceptability enthralled young people. Eva made it clear that the world cannot be saved, but an individual can still save themselves. Shinji's answers to questions like, "What?s wrong with me, thinking only of saving myself?" is on the right track.


This led to an Otaku schism between pre-Eva and post-Eva Otaku. The Decadence mindset also contributed to the creation of Moe.


Edit: Just for fun, here's some excerpts from "Against the Grain" and "The World God Only Knows" anime.

Spoiler: Against the Grain

Imagination could easily be substituted for the vulgar realities of things.

-Joris-Karl Huysmans


Reality is just garbage/a crappy game!

-Keima Katsuragi (The World God Only Knows)


Nature had had her day... this eternal, driveling old woman is no longer admired by true artists, and the moment has come to replace her by artifice.

-Joris-Karl Huysmans


True, I've given up on the real world, however I haven't given up on myself. The world doesn't get to decide whether my life is boring, fun, or ordinary coz that?s my decision to make.

-Keima Katsuragi (The World God Only Knows)


Yeah, Joris-Karl Huysmans would be all about 2D girls.

Just out of question, do you think people actually use Eva as an excuse to isolate themselves and be more cynical when the last two episodes are an arrangement for reaching out to others and being self confident?

Also, if you think my interpretation of the last two episodes of the series is wrong, what do you think?

I don't think people used Eva as an excuse to become more cynical and isolated. They already felt isolated and Eva offered a way out. A way to come to terms with those feelings.

The last episode dealt with the nature of reality. It preaches that the individual has the power to become the sole arbiter of truth in the world. The two quotes that stick out are

"The only one who can understand you, who can take care of you is yourself. So you must take care of yourself."

"Your world is reality, the world is whatever you make it to be."

This is a very Decadent mindset. It advocates that the world is merely the way a person chooses to see it. Eva does not ask Shinji to come to terms with reality. It has him reject the reality nature imposed and substituted it for a world of his own making. It was a right, noble thing to do. It was made out to be the only way Shinji could live happily.

I think this is what most people took away from Eva, since the sekai-kei genre, where a person's feelings and emotions were directly tied to the fate of the world, got very popular after Eva ended.

Despite its name, there are certain positive aspects that can be taken from the Decadence Movement. Responsibility for your own happiness, loving yourself, not worrying how other people see you, even willingly giving yourself up to illusions can be a good thing.


I hope I've answered your question, I still got a lot of reading to do.

 

[Weaver]

Just like FMA and Elfen Lied, Eva is a totally overrated show. It was something a bit different, so anime fans naturally flipped out and hyped it into the ground well beyond the amount it deserved.