I Like My Fighting F**ktoy's

[IamLEAM1983]

It's probably been said before already, but I just wish there'd be a little less Fighting Fucktoys or One-Dimensional Masculine Asskickers - and more well-rounded characters overall.

People can like whatever they damn well please, and if a character who's all Armored Tits galore is your cup of tea, then so be it. As someone who kind of wishes the medium would grow up in some respect, I'd like a little more well-rounded female characters.

I get that the Metal Gear Solid series has fanservice and general nudity as selling points, but I hope that there's going to be a more realistic take on a female sniper in another game, to counterbalance Quiet's very fanservice-y design. And no, I'm not saying you're wrong for liking her. I'm saying I wish we'd see more of the Alyx Vance school of character design - i.e. someone who dresses and acts practically and whose appeal comes from the animators, the overall design, and the actor's performance.

 

[davidmc1158_v1legacy]

I grew up in a world where women are equal to men. I grew up in a world where gay relationships are completely normal. I grew up in a world where what made people happy was just fine as long as no one lost an eye.

No, no you didn't.

Don't tell me how my mother raised me. I'd appreciate that.

Just because the world is full of fucked up people doesn't mean some parents haven't done right with a few of us in all that.

I think the objection is your use of the word 'World'. You may have been raised in a very tolerant household or family, but that does not translate into the entire planet.

Poor word choice, perhaps, and nothing more. That such households DO exist is actually something to celebrate and something we should be trying to promote more of.

 

[Bruce]

Hello internet.

I just want to say I like my fighting fucktoy's. And I want to know why that's a bad thing.

It isn't.

Okay think about it the way you think about food - there are some flavours that just don't go together right? Some really strong tastes that just come out wrong when you blend them.

They are tastes that you might seriously like, but they don't go with everything.

I love garlic, but I couldn't quite imagine it going well in a sweet meringue.

And you don't want to always eat the same meal every night, you want that variety, and you want that depth that comes from doing them justice.

The fighting fucktoy, just like any other character archtype, has a time and place. It can work extremely well in the right setting, when all the other flavours compliment it.

But it can't work everywhere. It can't be all you get. It is something you like sure, but if it is all you're getting you're going to get bored of it.

That is why all those Tomb Raider knockoffs that followed the first game? Very few of them succeeded, and female protagonists gained a reputation for not selling. Too much of the same thing over and a over again killed the market.

And I would venture to add, the same thing is happening in AAA development right now - too much of the same over and over again.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Similarly, the solution to oversexualized portrayals of women in video games isn't to completely abolish them, but to have less of them and counterbalance them with positive non-sexualized portrayals. Keep Bayonetta, clothe Cammy, make more like Chell.

Saying "have less of them" kinda translates to abolishing to at least some degree. Why not leave them as they are and just focus harder on non-sexualized portrayals, focus on creating more Chells and Bayonettas?
Why ask for LESS of something when it comes to art, fiction and fantasy? What is there to be gained from that?

Clothing Cammy is the best example of what I mean - you will essentially be pissing off a HUGE chunk of the Street Fighter community for no reason. Cammy has been wearing that attire since her very first appearance in 1993 (SF2), there's no denying that it's part of who she is. You can ask for more optional costumes for Cammy, but if you dare alter her base appearance then there's going to be an absolute shitstorm in which NOBODY wins.

Here's an awesome one I've been seeing around recently:

Aww look at those little cat ears <3

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Hello internet.

I just want to say I like my fighting fucktoy's. And I want to know why that's a bad thing.

I grew up in a world where women are equal to men. I grew up in a world where gay relationships are completely normal. I grew up in a world where what made people happy was just fine as long as no one lost an eye.

What happened to that world? Why are people trying to tell me my toys are wrong?

I haven't yanked the vibrator out of my fiancee's desk and told her shes wrong for enjoying the occasional orgasm without me. I don't go around to the local gay bar and tell the guys and girls there they're wrong for enjoying each others company. I don't waste my time going to local churches and heckling people for worshiping a spaghetti monster.

So if I want to enjoy a game as a female character or that features a female character that I find visually and sexually appealing and part of the reason I find that character appealing is because she kicks ass....why is that wrong? Explain to me what is wrong with that?

If everyone else is normal and what they're doing is just fine...then I am too. Just because I like empowered, distractingly dressed alpha females that can be admired both for their beauty and their capabilities doesn't make me some kind of terrorist.

Artistically, you are very correct.

You know a game like Rapelay or Hatred or whatever (those being absolute extreme) have every right to be exist and played so long as we the people view Video Games as an artistic medium.

I believe what people are complaining (and if they are making an arguement different then this their wrong) it's not that we can't have our "fighting fucktoys" as you put it. It's that we would like more games were you play as a female character who's not sexualized or the like- say Clementine from Walking Dead.

It's a call to broaden the gaming horizon, basically. Or at least it should be.

 

[newfoundsky]

You got me correct. Thanks for reading me, the post above explains a bit more in detail.

I used the word "Toys" mostly as a simple descriptive....I certainly don't view my Skyrim character as such, I will even admit to a certain level of emotional attachment to her because of the amount of time and art and modding I've put into making her what she is. So yeah...definitely not just "toys". I view females in games as people, as women I'd love to be...if I was in their situation. They're heroic people...whether they're self created mute characters like my Skyrim character, or extremely well written and designed characters like Jane Shepard or even the female Boss from Saints Row and even Bayonetta...who, in fairness, I've never actually hands on played (I don't buy consoles for one game) but from all the LP's I've seen....shes a beautifully realized character, her writing is spot on for what she is, her character is written and voiced in a manner which makes her not just believable but also...inspiring and individual and almost alive. Shes not a sexual fantasy, she, like my Skyrim character, is an expression of ultimate power, grace and beauty and whether that was made by a man or is enjoyed by men....that expression of power, grace and beauty is NOT yet another grizzled white dude with a "troubled past" but an extremely vibrant, well presented, self assured woman who is not just gorgeous and extremely confident and comfortable with her sexuality, but is also capable and has true ultimate power and agency within the scenarios she is placed in by the games story.

People look at Bayonetta and say shes demeaning....I see it from the angle of a person who creates characters, and Bayonetta isn't demeaning to women, Bayonetta is literally a digital expression of the worship of the feminine at a nearly godlike level.

People may not agree with how I see that, but thats how I see it, as an artist and designer.

This is exactly 100% better than what I thought you were saying. I feel like a lot of these conversations are lost in translation (and flag worship on both sides, mine most definitely included). I... think we all should be a little more tactful with our words.

As an aside, I still think Bayonetta's design is dumb but I can at least get behind the line of thinking you have. But, please, consider that an interpretation can only dress up intent. And we can argue what the original intent was all day, so let's not XD

 

[WouldYouKindly]

Enjoying tits and ass does not make you sexist.

I don't so much mind fanservice and incredibly impractical armor so long as it's equal opportunity. If a piece of armor on the male character is a piece of steel which covers as much as possible, so should it be on the female character. The inverse is also true. If a piece of armor one a female character can best be described as chainmail bikini, it should be equally skimpy on the male. As a matter of fact, I'd like to come across a game that has all tastes covered. Those who appreciate the practical should get practical armor regardless of gender and those looking for a bit of titillation should be able to get it regardless of their preference.

In other words, what's sexist isn't your enjoyment of, as you called them, fighting fucktoys, but if there's no female oriented equivalent. The objectification train can go both ways, just so long as it doesn't extend to actual real life people and the game doesn't expect me to take it seriously. Any character wearing a few bits of string and a bit of metal, by choice, onto a battlefield shouldn't come across as sane or normal.

 

[Pirate Of PC Master race]

I haven't yanked the vibrator out of my fiancee's desk and told her shes wrong for enjoying the occasional orgasm without me. I don't go around to the local gay bar and tell the guys and girls there they're wrong for enjoying each others company. I don't waste my time going to local churches and heckling people for worshiping a spaghetti monster.

Oh. I completely missed this part. May his noodliness bliss your soul.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

I don't so much mind fanservice and incredibly impractical armor so long as it's equal opportunity.

What if the target audience isn't so equally divided? What if a developer chooses to aim their game at one gender? Lets put aside games, what if ANY company decides to aim their product at one gender over another? It technically makes them "sexist", but does that kind of sexism really matter? It's just called focusing on a particular demographic, or niches.

There's a reason you have many kinds of magazines - generic magazines, ones targeted specifically at men, and others targeted specifically at women. And that's OK. Therefore you can't pick up one kind of magazine (or one kind of game) and yell "this isn't equal opportunity!" at the editor (or developer).

For example - I don't want to stare at skimpy males, I'm only interested in skimpy females. Skimpy males aren't my thing. That is my choice in my fictional/fantasy entertainment. If a developer notices that demand/niche and creates a game suited to that taste, is there anything wrong with that?
Oh dear, that means that developer is now classified as "sexist" - but that word has lost all meaning and impact. Sexism in fiction/fantasy has stopped meaning anything and labeling something (in games) as sexist nowadays only makes me respond with "and?" or "so what?".

So on the topic of games not offering equal opportunity skimpy armor to males and females - and? So what? Play the games that DO offer that, there are plenty out there. If you aren't finding any, then demand developers/publishers to make them. Better yet, see if you can create (or support) one yourself.
It's futile to take out anger and frustration on games that already exist by bombarding them with criticism of sexism/misogyny.

The #1 source of debate/frustration/etc surrounding this issue is coming from certain groups of gamers (e.g. female gamers) saying they aren't being catered to. That's a very valid complaint, I 100% agree with them.

But then some of them resort to taking out their frustration by unloading truckloads of criticism on games catered towards male players, male gaze, male tastes, etc. What has that achieved so far? Absolutely nothing. Of course male gamers are going to backlash, and that's EXACTLY where the "omg feminism is coming to take our fun away" notion comes from. As dumb as that notion is, it highlights something important - feminists (and gamers supporting their views) need to find ways to encourage developers to make games catering to them, maybe spearhead campaigns to show devs/publishers that female gamers are a market force worth catering to in the core gaming spaces.

But nope, people would rather just sit there and throw rocks at games that don't cater to them.

 

[Polarity27]

I don't so much mind fanservice and incredibly impractical armor so long as it's equal opportunity.

What if the target audience isn't so equally divided? What if a developer chooses to aim their game at one gender? Lets put aside games, what if ANY company decides to aim their product at one gender over another? It technically makes them "sexist", but does that kind of sexism really matter? It's just called focusing on a particular demographic, or niches.

For example - I don't want to stare at skimpy males, I'm only interested in skimpy females. Skimpy males aren't my thing. That is my choice in my fictional/fantasy entertainment. If a developer notices that demand/niche and creates a game suited to that taste, is there anything wrong with that?
Oh dear, that means that developer is now classified as "sexist" - but that word has lost all meaning and impact. Sexism in fiction/fantasy has stopped meaning anything and labeling something (in games) as sexist nowadays only makes me respond with "and?" or "so what?". .

Really, when you get down to it, "sexist" is an aggregate complaint. Yes, yes, it *can* be specific, but specific examples are mainly objectionable because of the aggregate. If there were more female characters, across the board, of all types and descriptions, the fanservice fighter wouldn't matter as much. When there are fewer, and a plurality or a majority are built on fanservice, that's obnoxious.

I agree with the person upthread that said Skyrim did it right. You can be a completely-clothed male or female, or a skimpily-clothed male or female. More to the point, you can reach armor cap without needing to wear fanservice armor. If there's a chain mail bikini in the game, I don't care unless it happens to be the best DR in the game and I have to look at ass-floss if I want stats worth a damn at all. Do this in game after game and it gets really, really fucking irritating. "Sexism" is what that pattern looks like when viewed in the aggregate. (Why do people never get that this is what Sarkeesian is on about? Even if you argue that this or that chain in the link of $trope actually isn't really $trope at all, the videos are about an aggregate, a pattern-- moreover, about how $trope in games fits with $trope in the outside world. Any individual game wouldn't matter so much if not for the constant pattern repetition-- and Skyrim shows it's really not that hard to avoid that particular pattern. More armor types, more ways to reach cap, some of them fanservice and some not, problem avoided.)