I now know why everyone hates Metal Gear Solid: 2

FolkLikePanda

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Don't really have a favourite but I will say that GTA: Liberty City Stories for me is the worst one of the series, its okay and isn't as good as the others in the series (including the first one), its just the cutscenes aren't good and the controls feel weird and it there feels as if nothings new, its just a butchered GTA 3. Vice City Stories is great though.
 

DioWallachia

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Lovely Mixture said:
DioWallachia said:
Lovely Mixture said:
MGS2 was my introduction to the series, and I liked it. However I agree that the original concept was much better, the game we got lacks some oomph to it.

And goddamn I am so happy, so happy to see that people are critical of MGS4. That game was awful on all accounts that I don't see how people can all MGS4 a good game and still call MGS2 bad.
It was a bad game on purpose. Kojima didn't want to make more MGS games after 2 but the death threats and the pressure made him do it.

http://metagearsolid.org/reports_mgs4.html
Yes I was looking for that, and I do like that interpretation. Though I don't know how many people will buy it.
Why would it be hard to buy? what evidence do THEY have of the contrary?

Come to think of it, i wonder if this is STILL Kojima's fault? If his vision really was THAT important to him, then he could at least refuse to the very end to give up to the death threats and the nutjobs will just give up because, if he dies, then there is no one else that can do the games he does.
 

Baneat

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Zenn3k said:
Baneat said:
Zenn3k said:
Everyone hates MGS2 because you play as Raiden for 90% of it.

Everyone liked Snake in MGS1, so they were expecting more Snake.
.
But that's wrong. MGS2 had far too little gameplay content and far, far too much soppy and unintelligent drivel in the form of cutscenes and codec. It wasn't cause we liked MGS1's Snake, it was that Snake was in the preview of the game as they only released the tanker mission. They appeared to have baited and switched. People acting like it's been solid snake the entire time through all the prior games? At this early stage there really was no character loyalty.

In MGS2 Raiden's fine. Apart from his stupid bishy hair he's fairly likeable and I get to stare at his package and bum an awful lot so yeah. Raiden becomes insufferable in MGS4 though.

The biggest flaw by far was the cutscene ad nauseum not Raiden's inclusion.
Forget about Metal Gear on the NES.

For many gamers, MSG was their first game in the series, it was certainly mine. I had an NES and all, but Metal Gear wasn't a game I played.

I played the shit out of the demo tanker mission as I was 17 when it dropped and working at my first job...gamestop (wasn't actually a gamestop when I got employed, they bought us).

I got the game on release day...played that tanker section again, this time for "real"...then Raiden showed up. I didn't even finish MSG2 on my first attempt. I got so annoyed with Raiden and as you said, the boring long dialog codec moments and just shut the game off.

But most of all, I really though Snake was a badass in MSG1, I liked the character, many others did as well. So that "bait and switch" really turned off a lot of players, myself included.

I do think MSG3 is the best in the series though. Best stealth, best action, cool and interesting boss fights (the sniper duel is the best). Can't top MSG3.

Never played MSG4, don't own a PS3.
Okay usually I won't call out on errors but did you know you've been calling it Monosodium Glutamate the entire time? :D

I don't really like Solid Snake at all, especially in MGS1 and I'm not the only one I know that feels that he's a bit bland. Big Boss is the more interesting character by far.
 

Something Amyss

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Matthew94 said:
From what I have heard he was a failed movie director before he moved into games.

*looks it up*

From wikipedia

In his fourth year in university, Kojima surprised colleagues by announcing his intentions to join the video game industry, despite initially having ambitions of becoming a film director.
You mean. the exact thing I'm referencing?
 

Something Amyss

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DioWallachia said:
Lovely Mixture said:
MGS2 was my introduction to the series, and I liked it. However I agree that the original concept was much better, the game we got lacks some oomph to it.

And goddamn I am so happy, so happy to see that people are critical of MGS4. That game was awful on all accounts that I don't see how people can all MGS4 a good game and still call MGS2 bad.
It was a bad game on purpose. Kojima didn't want to make more MGS games after 2 but the death threats and the pressure made him do it.

http://metagearsolid.org/reports_mgs4.html
Of course, that was the story about 2, before people started to analyse its "brilliance" and insist that it was done to subvert players' expectations and as an artistic mind-screw.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the excuse offered for any bad Kojima game. If he created a new IP, it would suck intentionally because he was forced to blah blah blah.
 

Baron_Rouge

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I liked Metal Gear Solid: 2...however, besides a bit of Peace Walker, it is the only Metal Gear Solid game I've played, so maybe I'm not the best judge. The black sheep of my favourite gaming series is probably Dynasty Warriors 6. I appreciate that they were trying to do something new, but I think we can all agree it was a big misstep to change the combat like that. Dynasty Warriors 7, on the other hand, had exactly the right amount of new features while still retaining the classic gameplay and aesthetic :)
 

IanBrazen

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Xiado said:
TehCookie said:
Not to mention a bishounen, for some reason guys seem to hate those characters.
I'd imagine some guys don't like those characters for the same reason a girl might be uncomfortable playing Lollipop Chainsaw or Bayonetta. It's a bit annoying to have the character representing you be a stereotype of what the other gender is supposed to find attractive, and an idiotic stereotype at that. Also, Raiden being a prettyboy wouldn't matter as much if not for the fact that he's inferior to Snake in every way.
I really think that people would have warmed up to Raiden if he had been properly introduced.
If they introduced him properly, showing that he would be the rookie that would be equal to or surpass Solid Snake, and people knew that I think MGS2 would have been better received.
 

Lovely Mixture

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IanBrazen said:
Xiado said:
TehCookie said:
Not to mention a bishounen, for some reason guys seem to hate those characters.
I'd imagine some guys don't like those characters for the same reason a girl might be uncomfortable playing Lollipop Chainsaw or Bayonetta. It's a bit annoying to have the character representing you be a stereotype of what the other gender is supposed to find attractive, and an idiotic stereotype at that. Also, Raiden being a prettyboy wouldn't matter as much if not for the fact that he's inferior to Snake in every way.
I really think that people would have warmed up to Raiden if he had been properly introduced.
If they introduced him properly, showing that he would be the rookie that would be equal to or surpass Solid Snake, and people knew that I think MGS2 would have been better received.
Raiden was introduced because a female fan wrote that she "didn't want to play as some old man." I wish I was making that up.

I don't hate Raiden, they worked his place into the story very well, despite his odd introduction to the series.
 

lapan

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Haven't played MGS2 myself yet, but watched others play parts of it. The codec slowly turing insane seemed hilarious.
 

DioWallachia

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Zachary Amaranth said:
DioWallachia said:
Lovely Mixture said:
MGS2 was my introduction to the series, and I liked it. However I agree that the original concept was much better, the game we got lacks some oomph to it.

And goddamn I am so happy, so happy to see that people are critical of MGS4. That game was awful on all accounts that I don't see how people can all MGS4 a good game and still call MGS2 bad.
It was a bad game on purpose. Kojima didn't want to make more MGS games after 2 but the death threats and the pressure made him do it.

http://metagearsolid.org/reports_mgs4.html
Of course, that was the story about 2, before people started to analyse its "brilliance" and insist that it was done to subvert players' expectations and as an artistic mind-screw.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the excuse offered for any bad Kojima game. If he created a new IP, it would suck intentionally because he was forced to blah blah blah.
Well....isnt that the same problem that Bioware has with EA? werent they forced to rush the games? how does one determine whose on fault here without some years passing on? At least we know that with Kojima, he sold out just a little on MGS3 with product placement (little) and gave the "gun porn" lovers the kind of arsenal to make even The Major of Hellsing Ultimate to shed a tear of joy.

When it was clear that HIS audience was only for the thrill (just like Snake) then he said fuck it and we had MGS4.
 

IanBrazen

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Lovely Mixture said:
IanBrazen said:
Xiado said:
TehCookie said:
Not to mention a bishounen, for some reason guys seem to hate those characters.
I'd imagine some guys don't like those characters for the same reason a girl might be uncomfortable playing Lollipop Chainsaw or Bayonetta. It's a bit annoying to have the character representing you be a stereotype of what the other gender is supposed to find attractive, and an idiotic stereotype at that. Also, Raiden being a prettyboy wouldn't matter as much if not for the fact that he's inferior to Snake in every way.
I really think that people would have warmed up to Raiden if he had been properly introduced.
If they introduced him properly, showing that he would be the rookie that would be equal to or surpass Solid Snake, and people knew that I think MGS2 would have been better received.
Raiden was introduced because a female fan wrote that she "didn't want to play as some old man." I wish I was making that up.

I don't hate Raiden, they worked his place into the story very well, despite his odd introduction to the series.
Wait girls don't play games. THIS IS A CONSPIRACY! j/k
That's hilarious now because you actually play as an old man in mgs4
 

bioject

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Gone Rampant said:
It's what I call "Invisible War" syndrome. The critics and newbies to the franchise loved it, but the fans hated it with a passion. For IW, it was because it had to live up to the original Deus Ex, but in the case of MGS2, it's because the fans hate Raidan more the Big Bad.
Well Invisible War did have a broken game engine that couldn't render water and if you didn't get the initial patch, the game was literally broken as you could not drop weapons or items from your inventory. The environments were also ironically smaller than the first game and you could do more in the first game too. It wasn't a horrible game though and I still enjoyed it. It was far better than Deus Ex Human Revolution which was a crappy linear FPS masquerading as a Deus Ex.
 

Something Amyss

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DioWallachia said:
Well....isnt that the same problem that Bioware has with EA? werent they forced to rush the games?
I thought the problem was that they were bad storytellers who were fellated for cardboard stock characters, but their veneer started to crack and people were no longer enamoured with them.

Well, I suppose the "EA" complaint exists, but with Bioware defending the business practices, I don't think we can blame EA. At least, not solely.

Of course, I discourage "two wrongs make a right" thinking and do not adovcate one over the other.

how does one determine whose on fault here without some years passing on?
It's hard to, but when one's story is inconsistent with time, you lose credibility. Kojima's certainly done that, which is the thrust of my prior post. He ALWAYS seems to have an excuse for bad games, and it changes even with the context of the same game.
 

KoudelkaMorgan

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Black sheep I loved: Majora's Mask. It was just so much better than Ocarina of Time for me, and just a very interesting concept for the series. It was a bold departure, and would still be today. Quality from start to finish...and you get to be a goron and zora dammit!

Black Sheep I didn't like: Other M. Super Metroid is my favorite game ever, and Other M is just no where near as fun, polished, replayable, or interesting. SM got more done in probably 7 minutes of total plot development than the entirety of Other M. Though Other M handily tore down about 15 years of character development in about 7 minutes so it has that going for it..I guess.