I shall now say unkind things about Dark Souls.

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
Dec 29, 2009
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majora13 said:
Zhukov said:
Perhaps this would work better phrased as a question: What is gained by making me run down hallways and repeat easy fights before getting back to a challenging boss fight?
I don't understand what setup you would prefer. You want a checkpoint right before the boss room? To my mind, that would encourage grinding much more than the current system. If you find yourself getting bored repeating a sequence, that's a good indication that you aren't ready for that fight yet. I didn't kill Capra until I had already made it most of the way through Darkroot Gardens and Blighttown. When I hit a wall in Darkroot, I remembered Capra and I reckoned that I was ready to take him down.

If you would rather that the enemies perma-die, well, I just don't think that would be very fun in a non-linear exploration game. Imagine Metroid Prime if the enemies never came back! It would get really boring, and honestly, lonely. The point of having the enemies respawn is to keep the world active and dangerous and exciting. Those guys may be easy, but they'll wreck your shit at any level if you aren't paying attention.

I don't know, man. I found the combat in that game fun. Doesn't every game make you fight the same enemies over and over? If it's a good game, isn't that what you want? I mean, how many times did you play the same level in Mario Bros., over and over and over, just to die on some trap at the end? I actually like that kind of thing. I like to zen out and try to clear a familiar area with perfect form, not taking any damage. I think that's part of the satisfaction that I got out of a lot of old-school games, and very few modern games. Dark Souls and Catherine I think were the only ones all of last year that gave me that feeling. I can understand if you don't dig that, you're probably busy and you don't want to do something that you feel is a waste of time. I get that. But I think it is a deliberate game design choice, and it's meant to appeal to a niche crowd among which I count myself.
I'm not sure if you answered my question there, but okay, fair enough.

As for respawning enemies, they have the opposite effect on me. They brutally break my suspension of disbelief over their knee with a sickening crack. I cannot take any setting seriously where hitting a checkpoint or leaving the area causes that guy who I just kicked off a cliff to magically reappear unharmed in the exact same place.

Rather than make the world exciting and alive, it removes the all-important illusion of life and reveals it as a crude simulation populated by mindless automatons.

Aeonknight said:
You're obviously dead set on hating the game after a whole 30 minutes of gameplay, your loss.
30 minutes? According to my save file I've been at it for 13 hours.

Although you're right in one regard. There probably has been only about an hour or so worth of content so far. It just that, y'know... they kept obnoxiously padding it out by making me repeat the easy bits.

*knife twist*
 
Aug 20, 2011
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Zhukov said:
As for respawning enemies, they have the opposite effect on me. They brutally break my suspension of disbelief over their knee with a sickening crack. I cannot take any setting seriously where hitting a checkpoint or leaving the area causes that guy who I just kicked off a cliff to magically reappear unharmed in the exact same place.

Rather than make the world exciting and alive, it removes the all-important illusion of life and reveals it as a crude simulation populated by mindless automatons.
It's justified though, because Dark Souls takes place in a kind of purgatory, and the creatures that respawn endlessly are the souls that have lost hope and become trapped there. On the other hand, there are demons that actually can be killed, and stay dead. This is actually one of the only games I've played that justifies respawning in-universe, I really appreciated that.
 

Nomanslander

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Feb 21, 2009
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I don't know, I like treading through re-spawned enemies over and over in these types of games. In the end DS is a Metroidvania, and the gameplay depends on treading back and forth the same areas to find new paths and prizes, and you can't have that without re-spawns. With out them the game would seem lackluster having to run around an empty level looking for some key or item. I guess it all depends on a gamer's taste.

Well, that's my view on your argument.
 

Aeonknight

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Apr 8, 2011
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Zhukov said:
[
Aeonknight said:
You're obviously dead set on hating the game after a whole 30 minutes of gameplay, your loss.
30 minutes? According to my save file I've been at it for 13 hours.

Although you're right in one regard. There probably has been only about an hour or so worth of content so far. It just that, y'know... they kept obnoxiously padding it out by making me repeat the easy bits.

*knife twist*
Cute. But if you're only at Capra Demon after 13 hours no wonder you're bored, you must be dead every other monster. But that's hardly the game's fault now is it?
 

Mudkipith

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May 11, 2011
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The game has a few unfair bullshit points, mainly the Anal Rodeo silver knights and their bows. But I love the feeling you get when you finally figure out how to beat that boss, or get through an area that used to be impossible for you to beat.

Also the game is EXTREMELY easy to cheese your way through. Pyromancy, the ridiculous scaling on Vit at low levels, the eagle shield; you just need to make better use of your resources if you're having a hard time.
 

Exius Xavarus

Casually hardcore. :}
May 19, 2010
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Mudkipith said:
The game has a few unfair bullshit points, mainly the Anal Rodeo silver knights and their bows. But I love the feeling you get when you finally figure out how to beat that boss, or get through an area that used to be impossible for you to beat.

Also the game is EXTREMELY easy to cheese your way through. Pyromancy, the ridiculous scaling on Vit at low levels, the eagle shield; you just need to make better use of your resources if you're having a hard time.
I'm afraid I'll never understand the issue that people are having with the Silver Knights. Is it the two right outside your very first entrance to the castle shooting arrows from two directions that people are having issues with? They're really not hard to beat. Just kill the two Batwing Demons in your way, run up the first ramp to the pillar and wait behind it until they stop firing altogether. Once they stop, run around the pillar to the next ramp, and sprint up the ramp to the building, in one swoop. If you're moving, they can't hit you. They're actually terrible snipers in that, instead of leading their shots and firing at where you're GOING to be, like they should, they like to fire at where you ARE. And once you get up the ramp, all you have to do is block. The knight on the right will hit you with a few arrows while you walk toward him, but you won't fall off. And once he draws his sword, all you have to do is block. He'll bounce off your shield and fall to his death. As for the other knight firing on the other ramp, just keep going toward him and meet him on the ramp. Block him and he'll pretty much hop to his death for you, anyway.

I think the main difficulty with this game, is that it scares people into thinking they're going to die a ton. It breaks your confidence and either makes you hesitate, which gets you killed, or makes you think so much that you're going to fuck up, that you actually do.

Everyone I knew that went into this game ready to have their asses handed to them, actually had their asses handed to them. Everyone was like, Oh no, Dark Souls is going to kill us all and piss in our eye sockets! I went in with a few friends with the mindset that WE'RE going to kill Dark Souls and piss in ITS eye sockets. And even though we played solo(well, I had to, because bad internet), we hardly ever died. We died only when caught by surprise, and to bosses before we learned their patterns, but that's it. You just need to have confidence in your abilities, stand up, and push back when Dark Souls pushes you.

At least, that's my take on the difficulty.
 

Feylynn

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Feb 16, 2010
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Das Boot said:
Feylynn said:
The Capra demon fight is the perfect example of everything I consider wrong with the game. Every other fight gives you time to see its moves or to learn from an ambush, the Capra Demon is mostly bullshit luck to live through the initial dog assault, unless you happen to have really high poise armor by this point in the game for some reason.
Or you know if you happen to have a shield and know how to use the block button. Obviously I am just being an asshole but I am also serious. Depending on your class that boss fight is as easy as knowing when to hit the block button and when to take a step backwards and avoid the attack. I upgraded my weapon a couple times (a very good idea) so I was able to kill the dogs in a single hit. Oh yea and I dont wear armour just a sword and shield since it allows me far more mobility.

Honestly the reason that you are dying so much is because you are bad at the game. I am not saying that as an insult or anything its just the way it is. Once you play it more and learn how it goes you will realise how easy the capra demon and his dogs are. I killed him on the first try simply because I played a lot of demons souls and knew how to deal with bosses like him.

Another common mistake is people putting points into the wrong stats for how they are trying to play the game.
Oh I won the fight and beat most of the game before I stopped out of boredom. Pyromancer is entirely unfair and I two hit bosses with ease. But at that stage of the game I didn't have the endurance to actually take that kind of hit on my shield (initially had the wrong assumption that int was helping my Pyromancy since the weapon itself has scaling with it) so they flinched me when I blocked. I managed to eventually get a lucky dodge and one hit the dogs with my sword before easily killing the demon himself who is very silly and predictable.

I say the Capra Demon's dogs are unfair because there is nothing to learn or correct about your play style unless you happened to make a certain class of character. You just need to get blindly lucky with that first dodge. Which I admit was partly my fault, but every other boss in the game was doable based on learning patterns despite my mistakes. I consider Quelaag fair and she's 100% immune to everything my character had. That was a fun fight to fight uphill against, Capra wasn't.
 

Clive Howlitzer

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Jan 27, 2011
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I haven't played Dark Souls yet but I will likely do so once it is released on PC. I am curious to see how the game plays out compared to everything I've heard about it.
Everyone loves to praise its difficulty but the more I hear about it, the more it sounds like the game lacks real difficulty and only has bullshit difficulty. I do consider there to be a difference, but we'll see!
 

thelastmccabe

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Jun 23, 2011
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I agree with OP completely. Everything you said is why I didn't like Demon's Souls. I even knew that it was exactly how it was going to be, but it's different when you're actually playing it and realize how tedious it is.
 

The Wykydtron

"Emotions are very important!"
Sep 23, 2010
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LastGreatBlasphemer said:
The Wykydtron said:
Oh and I don't mind the challenge when it's actually fair. The people who say every death is fair are talking out of their collective assholes. Snipers. Anor Londo. Fuck!
Funny, because all you need is a greatshield and the snipers are nothing.

Zhukov said:
As for respawning enemies, they have the opposite effect on me. They brutally break my suspension of disbelief over their knee with a sickening crack. I cannot take any setting seriously where hitting a checkpoint or leaving the area causes that guy who I just kicked off a cliff to magically reappear unharmed in the exact same place.
Are you now complaining about lack of realism in a game where you play the "chosen undead", have to slay a scaleless dragon, a twenty foot tall fat guy, a god of death made out of corpses, a minotaur demon, a cat-girl with a scythe, a dude who lives like a woman and has snakes for legs....

,

The list goes on.
Funny, since I thought Dark Souls had a "any build is viable" thing going on... If I absolutely need a greatshield (and the right stats to wield one) then that kinda throws that out the bloody window doesn't it?

That one particular section just has "X amount of luck required to continue" painted all over it. Trying to kill the sniper in your way? Oh shot in the back! Trying to get into sword range? Oh stun locked by arrows until you run out of stamina and go right the fuck off the roof.

Try to dodge anything? Death by gravity.

Annnnnnnd then there's the soul crushing walk back to the start of the area. The obnoxious lift, the far too long bridge and epic stairs start to get less impressive and more cunting annoying after you have to traipse through them 5 times in a row.

This is why I dropped the game for five months straight back in the Parish. Figure I may have to make it ten months before I pick it back up again this time.
 

Vegosiux

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May 18, 2011
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majora13 said:
Zhukov said:
Sounds like this game was just not meant for you if you're getting bored and frustrated by literally just running down two hallways to reach a boss fight. Maybe you should go play Uncharted or something, with quicksaves every 5 seconds and recharging health.
You know, I always said this kind of attiude has "self-esteem issues" written all over it.

No really. I don't care how hard the games people play are, if they have to get snarky and condescending towards someone who has some criticism (criticism that actually looks quite valid from here, I might add), then all I can conclude they're not those awesome manly badasses they think they are for beating a "HARD game for MEN!!!?"

And I'll agree with the OP that "challenge" and "a waste of time that surves no purpose" are two different things, for that matter. Ever tried to complete an Infocom game without hints? -That- is a challenge (Especially Bureaucracy. That one even lampshades it in that you die in-game of blood pressure). Not bashing your head against something until the stars align.

As for the particular game, well, I'll see some day, when I get to it.

Oh but who am I kidding, not like anyone is going to realize how stupid this greater than thou attitude makes them look.
 

JasonKaotic

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Mar 18, 2009
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I'm going to skip a big chunk of that post. You seriously let having less-than-average graphics have a big impact on your opinion of a game? Wow.
Edit: By the way, there usually aren't actually that many enemies between a checkpoint and a boss. When you know the way there it won't take you long to get there if you die. And if you die easily chances are you should prepare a bit more before taking on the boss again anyway.
Another edit: My only problem with it is having players come into my game and one-hit me after making lots of progress/finally getting past a bit that took me ages/racking up loads of souls/humanity. That is a stupid decision from the developers.
 

AlternatePFG

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Jan 22, 2010
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Capra Demon is just kind of a shitty and cheap boss fight your first time around. Poor camera angles, right at the start you get stunlocked by those dogs, and you have to do something very specific and unintuitive to get the upper hand. If you run back from Firelink and just keep going at it, you'll eventually beat it.

As for the respawning enemies, it's just part of the game design. It wants you to do a "perfect" run through the area before you get to the boss. If it just autosaved you before entering the boss door, that wouldn't be very punishing would it? With the exception of a few areas (Most of them at the start actually, Taurus and Capra specifically) getting to the boss once you've unlocked the shortcut/cleared the area and got everything you wanted is easy. If there isn't a shortcut (Most areas have one in one form or another) but you've already made it to the boss, it's totally possible just to run past all the enemies straight to the fog door. (Like I said, there's some exceptions) The tougher ones don't respawn, and a lot of the fodder is easy to dodge.

Took me forever to beat the game my first time through too. Repeat playthroughs go much faster (It's still a pretty lengthy game regardless) and once you get in the right mindset, it gets really addicting.

Edit: Also people saying "Maybe you just aren't good enough at the game" should just shut up, it's completely unhelpful and doesn't contribute to anything at all. The game is pretty brutal for new players, I doubt any of you did that great your first times through either.
 

hazabaza1

Want Skyrim. Want. Do want.
Nov 26, 2008
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As a proud member of the Dark Souls community, I hate how a lot of the arguments other people in the Dark Souls community have is just "it's 2 herd 4 u nub lolz"
Not this thread in particular, just a general observation.
 

Vegosiux

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May 18, 2011
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hazabaza1 said:
As a proud member of the Dark Souls community, I hate how a lot of the arguments other people in the Dark Souls community have is just "it's 2 herd 4 u nub lolz"
Not this thread in particular, just a general observation.
Thing is, that kind of talk makes them feel big (with that Zapp Branningan-esque pronounciation of "g"). That's why they do it.