I think Fallout 3 will stay my favorite over 4: Immersion and protagonists.

[Chaos Isaac]

Fallout cant hold a candle (and never will) to Metro and STALKER in terms of immersion.

They are simply beyond the series. And NEVER will Fallout reach them. It just can not. Not FO4. Not FO5. By design and construction they can not.

And even though I liked Fallout 3, that game had problems with immersion and its storyline and writing all over the place.
Shamus has a decent article on his site:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27085
This is part 1 you see. You can scroll to the other parts.

Pfft, what? Stalker and Metro have better immersion? I would have to disagree sir.
No reason to really discuss it, opinions and all. But man, I super hard disagree especially on the Metro side of things.

 

[Bad Jim]

Why not make the Fo4's protagonist the baby, growing up in the Pre-War world Fo3-style, then going into cryo-stasis in Vault 111 at age 18 or so?

If you like creating lots of characters, it's a bit of a drag creating them the way it worked in Fallout 3. It was also a bit of a drag in Fallout 2 with the Temple of Trials. I like to get a character creation menu, tweak my character until I'm happy and go forth into the world.

 

[Goliath100]

Stalker and Metro have better immersion? I would have to disagree sir.[...] I super hard disagree especially on the Metro side of things.

Would be interesting to know why that's your opinion, instead of just that it is your opinion.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

You know what killed my immersion for fallout 3? Go around the world and keep asking whenever you find a settlement "What do they eat?"

Seriously, practically no settlements (republic of dave is the only one that comes to mind that isn't at fault for this) has any reliable, sustainable food/water source. In a world where it's all about survival, this is a pretty crucial thing.

It's the reason why I love new vegas over 3. 3 was a great game that I have a good 50+ hours on, don't get me wrong. But obsidian treated the world like a living, breathing world and every civilization in it had to have a reason to exist there, and something to sustain it. The world was the important part. Bethesda treated it like a playground to put some fun set-pieces in, and ignore the small details.

As I said, 3 was a great game, and the way they went about it was in no way bad (though I still get annoyed at how lawful-good the brotherhood were. I feel fallout should never have a "good guy"), but since you talk specifically about immersion, the world just isn't right when you look at it critically.

 

[Chaos Isaac]

Stalker and Metro have better immersion? I would have to disagree sir.[...] I super hard disagree especially on the Metro side of things.

Would be interesting to know why that's your opinion, instead of just that it is your opinion.

To be frank; the game mechanics of Metro rip me out of the immersion more then anything, especially with what I find to be extremely bad karma system or whatever you want to call it. Or the fact that the dude never speaks, except on loading screans, and that's just a what the hell moment. And I know Artyom is not my avatar, per say, but at the end I don't get to choose what he does because of arbitrary good/evil points that you may/may not know about, or how to properly acrue enough good ones. Or know who the dude is that chooses what dictates good or evil, because then you can know how things end up. (And seriously Last Light punishing me 'cause I killed the asshole who did the whole nerve gas thing? Letsnisky or something like that. Seriously that's so cookie cutter good with no perspective it's pretty bullshit.)

Meanwhile; Fallout is goofy as hell with a atomic 50's vibe, giant bugs and super mutants that think i'm it's grandkid, and a world currency of bottle caps. Maybe it's because it's silly the bugs don't bother me too much, but at the same time, I can explore the world at my leisure, talk to just about anyone or be a absolute druggy who loses his shit all the time, but strives for the greater good. And that, well, I can't be easily lose my suspension of disbelief. IS that a fifteen food green man with a streetlight as a melee weapon? Well, me, my cyborg dog and grandmother mutant will go punch it.

At the same time, I can have a adventure looking for my dad, finding him, watching him die then go on mad vengeance, or try to honor him by completely what he was working on. Which, even with the setting, add something to this character's story, and the world and how I interact with it.

And as for Stalker, I haven't really gotten to play it, but I have seen terrible displays of hyper accuracy from the A.I. and some other stuff that doesn't mesh well with this setting in my opinion. To be fair, I don't really know this setting very well, and so my opinion here is pretty shallow.


In short, it ends up I can believe in Fallout's goofy but interesting world, while Metro is meant to be so much more dangerous and closer to realistic that that ends up being it's downfall in my eyes. Gamewise, the amount of close encounters Artyom has, scrambling around crumbling ruins and fending off hordes of dudes just... kinda kills it. (Much like the stupid amount of Hunters towards the later half of TLoU)

Stalker, again, portrays it's lethality and stuff well, but from what i've seen, just, I don't really buy the setting that well.

 

[Something Amyss]

IS this one of those threads where we pretend immersion is some sort of objective quality that can be defined based on a standard list of criteria such as graphcs and characters, rather than a personal assessment that relies on whether an individual is enthralled?

Because it looks like one of those.

Fallout 3 never immersed me. Tetris immersed me. I'm also pretty sure L-Block was a better developoed character.

Okay, I'm joking on the second part, but the bit about Tetris immersing me? Totally true.

Now, I don't begrudge anyone speculating on how awesome Fallout 4 will or will not be, but I have trouble making that call personally with the data we have.

 

[dangoball]

That said I think the way Bioware or whoever it was that made NV did a pretty good job with the story, it didn't feel too forced or ham handed, it was semi believable that my awesome sneaky sniper might be recruited as some sort of mercenary in the political shenanigans. Skyrim OTOH put me right off with the dragonborn crap. Chosen one bullshit at its worst. Given that that was Bethesda, it doesn't fill me with much hope for a good story in 4.

Have you, by chance, ever played Fallout 2? That's a take on The Chosen One you might enjoy. Your village literally titles you The Chosen One but if you mention that anywhere else, NPCs will have the appropriate reaction - most likely recommend you get of the drugs or take pity on you as the retard you seem to be. With the Restoration mod there's also a previous Chosen One who wants to kill you because you took his spot.

 

[Sansha]

Why not make the Fo4's protagonist the baby, growing up in the Pre-War world Fo3-style, then going into cryo-stasis in Vault 111 at age 18 or so?

If you like creating lots of characters, it's a bit of a drag creating them the way it worked in Fallout 3. It was also a bit of a drag in Fallout 2 with the Temple of Trials. I like to get a character creation menu, tweak my character until I'm happy and go forth into the world.

The hard save they put right as you exit the Vault passage where you can re-assign your character details is there for that very purpose; starting from there with a new character instead of beating Amata's dumb ass over and over, which, don't get me wrong, is a hoot, but yes - repetitive.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

Have you, by chance, ever played Fallout 2? That's a take on The Chosen One you might enjoy. Your village literally titles you The Chosen One but if you mention that anywhere else, NPCs will have the appropriate reaction - most likely recommend you get of the drugs or take pity on you as the retard you seem to be. With the Restoration mod there's also a previous Chosen One who wants to kill you because you took his spot.

Thanks for the suggestion but I've never got on with the isometric BG style RPGs. Got FO1&2 free with that GoG offer a while back, loaded up 1 and unfortunately found the Fallout games to be no exception.

 

[dangoball]

Have you, by chance, ever played Fallout 2? That's a take on The Chosen One you might enjoy. Your village literally titles you The Chosen One but if you mention that anywhere else, NPCs will have the appropriate reaction - most likely recommend you get of the drugs or take pity on you as the retard you seem to be. With the Restoration mod there's also a previous Chosen One who wants to kill you because you took his spot.

Thanks for the suggestion but I've never got on with the isometric BG style RPGs. Got FO1&2 free with that GoG offer a while back, loaded up 1 and unfortunately found the Fallout games to be no exception.

That is a shame. Baldur's Gate series and original Fallouts are some of my most beloved games ever, but there's no point in forcing them on you if the style would be grossly detrimental to whatever enjoyment of the games you could have.

 

[Danbo Jambo]

Quite a few RPG's from the 16-bit era used the "character from birth" idea. Obviously not as vividly as FA3, but that was just due to tech limitations.

FA4 can have just as equal an impact if done right. Let's join the character from school, or as a baby but in a different scenario (i.e. locked in a life support chamber in a "coma" and only able to witness the outside world for X years, as opposed to being able to partake in it, etc.)

All it takes is a bit of imagination.

Pfft, what? Stalker and Metro have better immersion? I would have to disagree sir.
No reason to really discuss it, opinions and all. But man, I super hard disagree especially on the Metro side of things.

Whilst I enjoyed Metro until I got stuck in some random room, my biggest memory from the game was that it wasn't FA lol. It was good, but all through playing I just kept thinking and feeling "it's like a watered down, bitesized version of FA"

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

That is a shame. Baldur's Gate series and original Fallouts are some of my most beloved games ever, but there's no point in forcing them on you if the style would be grossly detrimental to whatever enjoyment of the games you could have.

Yeah, it is. I had a fair collection of 2nd ed. ADnD books but never really got to play, so when I saw BG I hoped it'd be a decent substitute. I played to point then gave up several times, only to re-install a few months later, in the hope that this time I'd enjoy it, but it just didn't work for me. I think the 2nd ed rules at low level weren't right for a CRPG where combat is really the meat of the game, in PnP you can work round it but in CRPGs you're kinda stuck. Plus while the story wasn't exactly "chosen one" it really was a case of events being forced on you.

 

[Abomination]

Fallout 3, you can nuke a town and Daddy Liam tells you "I am very disappointed in you, but I still love you."

Then you die turning on a water filter.

Epic.

Sorry to say but all Fallout 3 helped do was pave the way for New Vegas.

Fallout 4 is looking pretty good to me. Voiced protagonist can be a good thing. Too early to say but I'm hopeful, I just don't really trust Bethesda with their storytelling. Great world building, crap execution... and I don't think Obsidian is going to risk another 84 Metacritic no bonuses fiasco again.

 

[Radoh]

So you don't think you are being unreasonable here, making claims about which game you'll like better when one of them was announced what, a week ago? Maybe your enjoyment from the game you did play being weighed against the enjoyment you didn't get from a game you can't have played yet isn't exactly reasonable?

Spoiler: As for the story in 3

 

[elvor0]

Fallout 3, to me, has the most creative and clever way it portrays and sets up the protagonist and his world that I've ever seen, and it doesn't look like Fallout 4 will so much as try to hit that sweet spot again. I've never seen my perspective on Fo3 written by anyone else, so here goes:

In Fallout 3, you're with your character from literal birth, and then dictate the course of several important events from their growing up, events and situations that determine the kind of person they'll become.
No other RPG has this. Every other RPG shoves you into the head of their protagonist, and you sort of take over from their own consciousness. It's never felt to me like you are that person; you merely become their pilot and wheel 'em around the game world.

No it doesn't, nothing you do in the vault has any effect on anything else you do later, you are still very much on rails piloting them around in the opening sequence. It's a good way of doing it, with the GOAT and whatnot, but it's just an expanded character creator.

In the Capital Wasteland, the Wanderer is an important piece on the board simply via birth and association with James and his colleagues, not some prophecy, McGuffin, or - like in NV - everyone else being completely stagnant.
You don't break into Raven Rock with the intention of destroying it like some super-spy, you get kidnapped due to your association, after being sent to Vault 87 for being the most qualified person to delve into a totally unknown Vault.
It's all put together so well to make you important without making you Jesus, something New Vegas failed, and Skyrim didn't even try.

And the GECK and FEV aren't Mcguffins in Fallout 3? Heck, the GECK is basically undefined magic in FO3, while in FO2, it's an agricultural starter kit that still needed Vault Citys fusion generator to make stuff like Vault City. It's helpful, but not a panacea for all problems like FO3 makes it out to be. Heck what does Fawkes say at the end of FO3? "It's your DESTINY to go in there". Yeah well fuck you Fawkes and fuck you game. I'm just going to stand here and let it explode if you're going to force that on me.

New Vegas?
"all teh doods want the desert, what we do? :V"
"This, this, this, and this."
"GEEZ WE NEVAR'D TOHUGHT OF THAT :O"

The whole west coast of the US in a political stalemate between a legionnaire army, fully-fledged democratic government and a demi-god who runs Las Vegas, and some dingus carrying packages is the only one capable of poking the snowball and getting it rolling... ?

And.....you're not the one who pokes the snowball in FO3? THe hell was everyone doing before you came along? Sitting on their asses waiting for the magical GECK to save them, that's what. The Brotherhood of Steel were happy to sit in their citadel till you dragged your sorry arse in there. Why your cushy vault life makes you more qualified than some bloody properly trained BoS Paladin in power armor with plentiful supplies and a lust to gather technology I have no idea.

That's not even the worst part of what New Vegas did wrong, and Fo3 did right: when you're let loose into the Mojave, you're set upon a set of tracks - blocked by Cazadors on one side and a scorpion-infested desert on the other - that takes you a specific path to New Vegas - the long way around, during which you make no real choices, and doesn't actually set you free until you get to New Vegas.

How is being able to just dick about with a crappy pistol with nothing being a threat more immersive than genuinely having to run away from bloodthirsty mutants? The world shouldn't bend the knee to you, you should do so until you're actually equipped to do so.

Fallout 3 sets you free straight out of the Vault. There's the city on the horizon, a burned-out town to your left, and a road stretching up the hill to your right. You don't even see Megaton, your first objective, until a sign in Springvale suggests something interesting over there. Fo3 throws you into the world and says "Go play.". Oblivion does the same; Skyrim meets in the middle.

You're free to go /explore/ in NV. That doesn't mean the inhabitants of the wasteland are happy to make room for you. No, they're going to fucking kill you because you're fresh meat. Being able to explore doesn't explicitly imply that you'll like what you find.

I didn't like it in ME or Witcher; I'm not going to like it here, especially if the conversations are also cutscenes.

Those aren't games that are supposed to be about making your own character. Those are not good examples to use. The Witcher is a predefined story with predifined characters, you're supposed to be experiencing Geralts story, not your own. In ME, again you're experiencing Shepards tale, you can influence her personality, but all are alternative interpretations of the character which all make logical sense within the world. Renegade Shepard is just as believable as Paragon Shepard. Depending on circumstance or player world view, helping or neutering the Krogan are perfectly reconcilable views to take within the game universe.

Not ALL RPGs have to be about making your character totally your own, and blasting games for don't is just narrowing what you think developers should be free to make.

Personally having a protagonist being a lifeless mute is /offputting/ to me. It works where everyone is text based, but when you've got "vibrantly" voiced other characters(Or at least the 3 voice actors Bethesda hired), your character just being a floating camera isn't personally immersive.

 

[dangoball]

That is a shame. Baldur's Gate series and original Fallouts are some of my most beloved games ever, but there's no point in forcing them on you if the style would be grossly detrimental to whatever enjoyment of the games you could have.

Yeah, it is. I had a fair collection of 2nd ed. ADnD books but never really got to play, so when I saw BG I hoped it'd be a decent substitute. I played to point then gave up several times, only to re-install a few months later, in the hope that this time I'd enjoy it, but it just didn't work for me. I think the 2nd ed rules at low level weren't right for a CRPG where combat is really the meat of the game, in PnP you can work round it but in CRPGs you're kinda stuck. Plus while the story wasn't exactly "chosen one" it really was a case of events being forced on you.

I might have been lucky to be introduced to BG through the second instalment. Starting at lvl 9 (and the starting dungeon) is a lot more fun then lvl 1 (and Candlekeep, so tedious). Though if Fallouts didn't catch your attention either, these games just might not be for you. Suffering through the first two exp. levels in BG was always just that - suffering. Running circles till your archer finally hits the damn beast is in no way fun. Oh well.

 

[Chaos Isaac]

And here I thought Metro's way of handling morality is the best ever designed in a video game...
It does not judge you. It does not tell you what these choices mean or do. Just as it should IMHO.
It is constantly telling the gamer in the actual game world what its OWN morality is. You just have to listen and you will understand it perfectly.

As for STALKER, that is actually Bullshit. People are used to NPCs that are MUCH less accurate than the player. So now ones that can AIM worth a damn look as if they were cheating.

But it does judge you. Oh, maybe you payed a stripper for a dance because you just saw her get basically screwed over and you want to share some of your vast wealth you don't use and then the game says, "You are a bad person. Now you get to be a suicide bomber instead of the Dark Ones saving you." Or better yet, in the first one, "You're a tool who nukes the surface again, because you're so dumb and vile to realize Dark ones aren't super evil."

And, no, the game doesn't have it's own morality. It's hilariously black and white that doesn't fit with it's universe. It's really grossly cooker-cutter in that regard. "Oh, in this world where everyone's underground and some asshole starts throwing out designed virus' to kill entire towns; it's still bad to kill him because you are a good guy, and in no way is killing this guy off better for the world then letting him live." <- I guess we should forgive those gas-chambering nazi guys. They weren't that bad, just needed to be caught before they did anything too bad.

"Oh, you saw the stripper get screwed over and not get payed, so you decide to pay her something even though you have no interest? You're a bastard for being pulled into a strip dance that you didn't know that interaction was gonna lead to. Fuck you, you're a terrible person. Enjoy dying." <- Annoying. Why does a strip dance give me bad karma? Because sexuality is evil? Or is paying strippers evil?

Anyways, as for Stalker; I didn't say that they were cheating or anything, i'm just saying I saw a few bad displays of hyper-accuracy, which is actually fairly common in my memory, but whatever. As for NPC's much less accurate then me, I can't say i'm used to that. Besides like maybe Destiny and Borderlands. Maybe that's just me.