I think Microsoft are scared about the 'Death of PC'

kasperbbs

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Dumbest thing i have heard all day. Metro is just a fucking start menu, you don't have to use it, only thing that i needed from the old start menu was the shut down button which is now elsewhere.. I'm getting really tired hearing people ***** about metro when they have no clue what they are talking about. I doubt that the PC will 'die' anytime soon, perhaps it will be more focused towards touchscreens, but not replaced by them. Whatever happens, happens, no sense in panicking about something that might happen someday.
 

Nalgas D. Lemur

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SciMal said:
See, Smartphones and Tablets are still personal computers (my phone is more powerful than my second computer, actually) - but you mean desktops.
Well, yes, sort of. My graphing calculator (the one I used in school in the early 90s, even) was more powerful than my first computer, not to even mention all the handheld gadgets these days. They are personal, and they are also computing devices, but by taking the literal meaning of the words, you ignore what the term has come to be accepted to mean over the years, kind of like the people who say, "Macs are PCs too because they're personal computers!" in discussions about Windows. Sure, those devices complement, supplement, or even replace traditional "PCs" for a lot of people these days, and that's important to be aware of/consider when thinking about something like this, but this feels like Pedant vs. Pedant at this point. Heh.

SciMal said:
You missed where you explain why Microsoft (oops, sorry... "Micro$oft") is scared. You open with a criticism of Windows 8 and "Metro UI" - which is MS's first earnest foray into touch-based interfaces that Smartphones and Tablets are based on - and then say they're scared that desktops aren't selling well.

Well no fuck, that's why they made W8. Frankly, the initial criticism (omg I have to adapt to new UI! WTF!) is just born of laziness. Anyone who's used several versions of any program (Photoshop, Android, etc.) has had to deal with learning to adapt. Hell, for a while I didn't know how to Print in Office 2010 because before that I was using Office 2001 and they switched stuff around. Then I found out and remembered how to do it.

Frankly, it's about time. Windows' UI hasn't really changed since Windows 98 - that was fourteen years ago, and computers have become FAR more capable.

Call me disgruntled, but those who refuse to adapt have already sealed their fate.
The problem is not that it's new and different. The "Metro" (or whatever they're calling it these days) UI actually looks pretty good for things like phones and tablets, and they should've been doing something like that much, much sooner instead of trying to force people to use the full Windows UI on a handheld/touchscreen device for so many years (WP7 aside, which no one used), because that was a disaster.

What's wrong with it is that they're trying to make a single UI work on a wide variety of screen sizes and resolutions with multiple different types of inputs, and it just doesn't work. I personally know zero people so far who've used Win8 and not found it to be more awkward than previous versions, whether they've stuck with it for a day, a week, or a month. All the non-Metro stuff seems pretty decent, but Metro on a large screen that is not a touchscreen is kind of a mess and frustrating to use. It looks nice, but it has such an enormous number of limitations imposed on it by the requirements that everything that uses it also be able to work on tablets/phones that you can't do much significant with the apps, and the UI itself is very much so not designed around large screens and efficient multitasking...and there's no way to disable it entirely.

Not that Apple hasn't been doing the same thing in OS X with 10.7 and 10.8, slowly adding things to the UI that started in iOS. It's not quite as blatant or as sudden a jump as Win8, and most of them can be disabled though with some effort, though. Hopefully someone sorts out how to do that on Windows too, because some of us actually use our computers to do work, not just to look shiny, and all that crap can get in the way of being (in the words of Microsoft's own Ballmer) "Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!"
 

The White Hunter

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Oct 19, 2011
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BiscuitTrouser said:
Hero in a half shell said:
How many people actually have a tower PC anymore aside from gamers?
Anecdotal evidence is worthless but i dont know a single person who doesnt own at least 1 tower PC. I love the tower PC. Honestly that love is mostly irrational. My first and only laptop was terrible and ive basically pigeon holed laptops to be overpriced (apple did this to me), very slow and inferior in every way to the PC i built that runs almost everything on ultra high quality for about 900. Its glorious and beautiful and its mine. I know logically laptops physically can compete with the graphics cards and RAM options available for my tower but i hate the inability to customize and build laptops. Anyone who wants a custom built rig has to go tower as it stands now (as in THEY build it). And since im a fan of that im probably never going to be a laptop user. Unless laptops become as accessible and customizaable as tower PC's using only a screw driver and occasionally a soldering iron.
I can vouch that most people I know use a tower pc, the only people that primarily use laptops are dickheads.

Frankly my laptop is a piece of shit and I never use it, I never take a computer anywhere to be honest, I prefer to avoid them when I'm away on vacation and I don't travel for work so why should I bother with a laptop?
 

The White Hunter

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thesilentman said:
hatseflats said:
Monster Snip
You, I like your viewpoint on this whole Windows 8 business going to kill the desktop. It won't yet, but the thing is, people aren't as tech-savvy as we predicted back in the nineties. I still see people scared shitless whenever I open a command prompt to renew my wireless connection.
The look of terror in their eyes when you do that is priceless, it's like they think you're an evil wizard of some kind.

OT: Nah, the PC is here to stay, I'll personally just switch over to Linux when windows 8 starts becoming mandatory.
 

Quadocky

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Huh, I don't mean to add to the white noise of who is dying or whatever but I find anything BUT PC to be on the way out. PC has been the most stable platform for practically anything for years. In fact, PC has been on the rise due to cheaper Laptops that outperform most tablets and smartphones by order of magnitudes.
 

SeaCalMaster

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Ultratwinkie said:
SeaCalMaster said:
Ultratwinkie said:
Consoles are over 7 years old. They are laughingstocks now. Any PC now can out perform a console. Especially now that the market opened up through casual and social gaming.
You know that Nintendo has a new console coming out in, like, a month, right? And that Microsoft and Sony are almost certainly working on new consoles to come out in the next year or two? Honestly, this comment makes no sense at all.

Ultratwinkie said:
What makes more sense? A high budget game with low profits or a low budget game with high profits? Its clear casual is the new AAA.
Do you know that high quality "casual" games cost less to make than the standard AAA titles? How do you know this?

OT: I should qualify this by saying that I used to work at Microsoft, and as such, I have some knowledge about how the company works on the inside. I'm not sure what to make of the whole Windows 8 strategy though. I can't tell if MS is merely hedging their bets against the death of the desktop PC as a hypothetical scenario or if they're certain that the desktop PC is dying, thus illustrating that too many people at the top have no idea what they're doing.

From where I sit, it's clear that there are too many people need levels of processing power that you can't get out of a laptop, much less a tablet or a smartphone. I think that the desktop PC will die eventually, but this won't happen until cloud computing takes off (thus removing the need to have lots of processing power locally), and this won't happen for another 10 years at least.
The average cost of a AAA game is 20-100 million. 10 mill if you are really dirt poor. The highest was 100 million with GTA IV.

Since when do you see people like popcap spend that much money for what is essentially a glorified flash game? What about Angry Birds? Farm Ville?

Bejeweled? For 20 million dollars? You must be joking.

What next, a Hershey bar for 100$? A cup of water for 120$?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/09/06/assassins-creed-3-are-aaa-games-dying-out/
http://www.oxm.co.uk/40860/aaa-games-would-cost-1800-if-they-reflected-man-year-development-time/
http://www.lazygamer.net/general-news/ffd-is-next-gen-gaming-sustainable/

To not notice AAA games are expensive is like not noticing Obama is the president of the United States.
So, I hate to be pedantic, but apparently it's necessary.

You made the claim that AAA games were more expensive than so-called "casual" games. I expressed my skepticism of this claim. You then went to a great deal to demonstrate that AAA games are, in fact, expensive, and then you hand-waved the rest of the argument with your seeming inability to comprehend how a game like Bejeweled could cost the same amount. (As an aside, that particular game has been out for a while and is therefore a bad example to be using, but we'll keep going anyway.)

Yes, it's immediately apparent that AAA titles cost a lot to make. Is it also immediately apparent that games like Bejeweled cost less? Do you know how much Bejeweled actually cost to make? (I've done a few searches without any luck.) Are you familiar with the development cycle? Do you know how much psychological research goes into a game like Peggle? Or are you merely assuming that, because those games are easier to play, they are also easier to make?
 

TK421

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SciMal said:
If there's something you can only do in Win7, that's great. For the majority, Win8 still does everything needed.
It isn't that it won't do it at all, it's that it will do it in a crappy and inconvenient way. I am not going to "upgrade" to something that makes my life less convenient, and I'm certainly not going to pay for it.
 

mad825

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BiscuitTrouser said:
I know logically laptops physically can compete with the graphics cards and RAM options available for my tower but i hate the inability to customize and build laptops.
All moblie versions of GPUs are inferior to the standard models. Same with CPUs. Also with HDDs however with the implementation for SSDs there's little to no difference.

In terms of competition, if a laptop and a desktop were in a race; the Laptop will always be moving at 5MPH while the desktop will be constantly moving at 7MPH with greater efficiency.
 

IamLEAM1983

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Hero in a half shell said:
They are hoping to fade out all laptops and desktops at my work, because it's a lot harder to take information off the devices onto pen drives or CDs, so tablets are more secure. Considering the importance of security above all else in IT firms, and the handiness and usefulness of tablets only increasing I could see a lot of businesses switching to them, and if the tower PCs loose the business market... well, How many people actually have a tower PC anymore aside from gamers?

It's certainly going to be an interesting future for technology, a lot of winners and losers will be decided in the next few years.
What really bothers me is that a lot of non-gamers are being fed false information. My father, whose gaming experiences don't range any further than Solitaire and Minesweeper, regularly asks me why I'm adamant on keeping my rig updated. Based on something he picked up God knows where, desktops are dead and "everyone" plays with a gaming laptop.

Uh, yeah. Some people do. On the whole, though, you pay two or three times the cost of a basic entry-level gaming desktop, if you choose to go laptop. If you're just going to sit at your desk, there's no reason for you not to go with a desktop. Even if your PC becomes your primary "console", you can buy relatively small and slim cases nowadays.

The tower PC isn't phasing out any time soon, no matter how much Microsoft is trying to provoke some sort of hardware singularity. It feels as though they're imagining a future where everyone is rocking a tablet, but these are still luxury items.
 

flarty

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SciMal said:
Could have just stopped reading there. That "joke" is older than you are, and shows a complete lack of attempt to be fair.

Whatever, though. It's your thread.
Jayzus talk about PMT, so he made a poor joke, breathe deeply and calm down and move on.

SciMal said:
*looks at Smartphone and Tablet* - Say wuhh? Ooh, no, what you meant was that the tower PC may be dying. See, Smartphones and Tablets are still personal computers (my phone is more powerful than my second computer, actually) - but you mean desktops.

Yes, I'd say desktops have hit the other side of the hump at this point. Because the components have kind of stagnated (I have a 5 or 6 year old computer and play current games, something I could not have done between 1995 and 200) there's little reason for people to upgrade.
No need to be so patronising now is there? Yes its obvious he means the desktop (tower). Unless you really did get confused, and since you believe components have stagnated due to the reason you quoted above, this wouldn't be too hard to believe. Its plainly obvious this generation has been dominated by consoles so video game development has been held back by the hardware limitations of the consoles. Don't believe me? go and look at the unreal Samaritan tech demo. The demo was originally running on a tri sli set up of 580's. Now it can be run on a single card, just one generation of cards later.

SciMal said:
You missed where you explain why Microsoft (oops, sorry... "Micro$oft") is scared. You open with a criticism of Windows 8 and "Metro UI" - which is MS's first earnest foray into touch-based interfaces that Smartphones and Tablets are based on - and then say they're scared that desktops aren't selling well.
Oh dear still not got over him using "$" instead of an "s"?

I dont know if you are aware of this, but metro has been employed on window 7 phones for a while, and while you might call it their first earnest foray, are you aware that there first earnest foray was back in 2002. Long before apple or google.

SciMal said:
Well no fuck, that's why they made W8. Frankly, the initial criticism (omg I have to adapt to new UI! WTF!) is just born of laziness. Anyone who's used several versions of any program (Photoshop, Android, etc.) has had to deal with learning to adapt. Hell, for a while I didn't know how to Print in Office 2010 because before that I was using Office 2001 and they switched stuff around. Then I found out and remembered how to do it.

Frankly, it's about time. Windows' UI hasn't really changed since Windows 98 - that was fourteen years ago, and computers have become FAR more capable.

Call me disgruntled, but those who refuse to adapt have already sealed their fate.
The UI is not the main reason windows 8 was made, its would of been much easier to just re-skin windows mobile 7 like they had done than release a whole new OS, and cheaper. They want to create an ECO system to rival apples. While that's great there is no real need to push the metro UI on to the desktop (even if it is optional). There is a reason why the windows desktop hasn't changed in so long, and that's because its works perfectly for the input method provided. Though you are correct machines a lot more capable now, but if splashing a new UI on to your desktop is all you can think to do with that extra processing power, then you seem to be lacking any imagination.

There is no need to be so obnoxious, especially when you seem to be lacking any real clarity on the subject. In fact i believe you would be better off with a console and a tablet computer, judging from your post.


Anyway my 2 cents. Seems more and more people are getting into gaming on PC lately (look at steam), so it would be interesting to see component sales compared to the falling sales of pre built systems, to see if the pc is really dying. Personally ill stick with windows 7. mainly because

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TtGQnyPZ6g
 

Do4600

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This is silly. As long as there is a niche to fill in a business market somebody will fill it. Computer technology has always followed the same patterns; first for military needs, then business needs, then for personal recreation. The only thing that's happening here is that a large number of people with un-specialized and simple needs are adapting to a newer format that provides a wide but shallow band of computing solutions. I'd bet that there are two main types of people who use tablet pc's; people who are some manner of "field" specialist, and people with disposable income who are probably addicted to twitter, facebook, skype and the internet in general, essentially it's a luxury novelty. The important distinction is that people who are the latter probably aren't losing any functionality that they valued in a stationary PC.

PC towers were never popular as far as "gaming" is considered. "gaming" was a niche market within the PC tower market, now it's the only reasons people use exclusively desktop pcs outside high resource business computing. Microsoft goes where the main market is, which is split right now between laptops and tablets. It still baffles me why they wouldn't just spend a week or two making it friendly to both systems rather than bias themselves against laptops and desktops just to serve the tablet market when it's not going to be the majority of the market until probably 2020 or later if the numbers I'm looking at are correct. Which means they will probably release Windows 9 before that happens anyway.
 

SciMal

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flarty said:
Jayzus talk about PMT, so he made a poor joke, breathe deeply and calm down and move on.
I think you're confusing anger with jaded apathy.

It's like Republicans still making jokes about Clinton's penis. It's just so overdone and out of context these days.

No need to be so patronising now is there? Yes its obvious he means the desktop (tower). Unless you really did get confused, and since you believe components have stagnated due to the reason you quoted above, this wouldn't be too hard to believe. Its plainly obvious this generation has been dominated by consoles so video game development has been held back by the hardware limitations of the consoles. Don't believe me? go and look at the unreal Samaritan tech demo. The demo was originally running on a tri sli set up of 580's. Now it can be run on a single card, just one generation of cards later.
Components have started evolving horizontally than laterally. Processor speed at about 4Ghz has been normal for a while - but my first PC had a 133Mhz processor, and I remember when the 1Ghz came out probably 7 years later. That's an 8-fold increase in raw power, and you're not reading about 32Ghz processors these days, are you? No, because we've reached atomic-level barriers, and the way around those barriers is to simply add more processors, more RAM, or more components (Quad-SLI!). New nVidia cards have more RAM and loads of processors, but the frequencies aren't increasing.

Whether the console domination of the market is a correlation or causation with the barriers hit by desktops I won't say, but an important thing to remember (which my sarcasm was pointing out) is that Smartphones and Tablets are totally real personal computers. They're smaller, lighter, mobile, and all that - and a lot of enthusiasts sort of pretend they aren't because they're used to tower setups.

Oh dear still not got over him using "$" instead of an "s"?
I'm just stooping to his level. I half-expected him to start whining about how XP is the best OS ever, or how Netscape is still a good browser. I'll admit lowering myself to his level isn't the best debate tactic, but then again this isn't really a debate.

I dont know if you are aware of this, but metro has been employed on window 7 phones for a while, and while you might call it their first earnest foray, are you aware that there first earnest foray was back in 2002. Long before apple or google.
I have a Nokia Lumia 710, so I'm well aware. And while Windows Mobile (which is a separate OS from Windows Phone) has been around for a while, touch screen phones have not been pervasive. Windows 8 is the first Windows OS tailored towards touch screen devices, like tablets and phones - their first earnest foray to do so.


The UI is not the main reason windows 8 was made, its would of been much easier to just re-skin windows mobile 7 like they had done than release a whole new OS, and cheaper. They want to create an ECO system to rival apples. While that's great there is no real need to push the metro UI on to the desktop (even if it is optional). There is a reason why the windows desktop hasn't changed in so long, and that's because its works perfectly for the input method provided. Though you are correct machines a lot more capable now, but if splashing a new UI on to your desktop is all you can think to do with that extra processing power, then you seem to be lacking any imagination.
I agree, but you made the same mistake the OP made. They're not pushing the Metro UI on anybody's desktop. They're not forcing you to buy it, and even if you get it with a brand new desktop you can just install an older version of Windows.

That's what I don't get. It's an OS designed for touch screen interfaces, and MS saying "It's for desktops too!" is just marketing bull (sort of like Apple trying to make every version of the iPhone seem different and unique). If you're not going to use the computer via a touch screen, then just skip Win8 and continue using Win7. I know I will. If I upgrade anything to Win8 it will be my Asus tablet, and I'll probably leave my tower running Win7 unless I'm really impressed.

The power behind a complaint rises or falls in direct proportion to how easily you can avoid the trap. If MS decided to make Windows 7 use Metro UI through a Windows Update, then there'd be a lot more veracity to the OP. They're not, though. Don't like Metro UI? Don't buy Windows 8. Bam, complaint nullified!

There is no need to be so obnoxious, especially when you seem to be lacking any real clarity on the subject. In fact i believe you would be better off with a console and a tablet computer, judging from your post.
My apologies. I'll follow the example you've set of asking the other person to act better before immediately insulting them twice in a row.
 

LordFish

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Ok, When I said DYING I meant... Loosing some market share, kinda a big deal since I'm pretty sure Windows has only ever seen growth. Companies and power users will still use them because there's nothing better... My mother and sister however don't need one anymore.


Nantucket said:
The managers at the multi-nat I work exclusively use laptops and iPads, yes everyone who games will still love their hand built power houses.

Owyn_Merrilin said:
Pretty much this. The PC isn't dying, just growing old and wizened.

SciMal said:
Could have just stopped reading there. That "joke" is older than you are, and shows a complete lack of attempt to be fair.
Well I'm a bit of a Microsoft fanboy, so you misread me.

Hero in a half shell said:
They are hoping to fade out all laptops and desktops at my work, because it's a lot harder to take information off the devices onto pen drives or CDs
That is so, so dumb.

mad825 said:
The desktop will always remain as a cheap and viable option for companies to operate a computer. Laptops/netbooks/notebooks/tablets may be mobile however they have security issues bordering on the line that leaves it out of the IT department's control.
YEP!

TK421 said:
Oh look, Someone who knows what he's talking about *waves* I'm all for new UI, but this one is political and you have to login through metro. there is no way to turn it off. This is a shame as the core design is great.
 

LordFish

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Rawne1980 said:
Agreed.

V8 Ninja said:
Until either Apple stops stating that their hardware works because of magical elves or we hit a graphics plateau, the tower PC will not die. Plain and simple.
Yep, Once again, I didn't mean die as in get wiped out.. just become less widespread.

Krantos said:
There are just some things tablets/etc cannot do from the development side.

The problem with laptops has always, and probably will always, be price. A laptop will almost 100% of the time cost more than an tower with similar specs.

I don't see Win 8 as a sign that MS is losing faith in the PC market. I see it as a sign they recognize the profitability of the handheld market.
Everything you're saying is not only true, but interesting :)
 

Hero in a half shell

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IamLEAM1983 said:
Hero in a half shell said:
What really bothers me is that a lot of non-gamers are being fed false information. My father, whose gaming experiences don't range any further than Solitaire and Minesweeper, regularly asks me why I'm adamant on keeping my rig updated. Based on something he picked up God knows where, desktops are dead and "everyone" plays with a gaming laptop.

Uh, yeah. Some people do. On the whole, though, you pay two or three times the cost of a basic entry-level gaming desktop, if you choose to go laptop. If you're just going to sit at your desk, there's no reason for you not to go with a desktop. Even if your PC becomes your primary "console", you can buy relatively small and slim cases nowadays.

The tower PC isn't phasing out any time soon, no matter how much Microsoft is trying to provoke some sort of hardware singularity. It feels as though they're imagining a future where everyone is rocking a tablet, but these are still luxury items.
Oh I agree with you, desktops have definite strengths over the others, and as a matter of fact I'll probably be buying a good desktop when my laptop gives up, because of the better performance and they're getting pretty cheap.
But all marketing, and all social attitudes are focused on laptops and tablets, and it's working. All the major companies are pouring millions into advancing their tablets, Every single student I know has a computer, and they're all laptops. I went to a car showroom the other day and the computer displays for each vehicle was an ipad in a little holder case, the guy in charge had a desktop at his desk, but it was turned off, sitting there unused while he used an ipad to show us all the cars info. online, flicking it about and handing it back and forth to us. As I said, my work have just instituted a new policy in the hopes of phasing out all desktop pcs, and we're an I.T. company!

If you really want to see what's selling, go to the people that sell the stuff. So what do PC World have on their homepage?
http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/index.html
Tablets: 3 references
Laptops: 9 references
Desktops: 1 reference
Interestingly enough, gaming pc websites still remain heavily desktop orientated, but that is a tiny market compared to schools/business/students/regular home users who are generally being pushed towards laptops and tablets, and honestly for most of them it's probably the right choice. Virtually no one actually needs a water cooled i7 16Gig, DDR 9, 1 terabite harddrive with 2 graphics cards and overclocking... thing. A laptop or tablet will do the trick for Youtube, Google maps, Farmville and Facebook.
The lucrative computer market has moved on from the desktops. Now is the age of mobility, touchscreens and wireless.
 

LordFish

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flarty said:
Voice Of reason snip
Hey! Wanna join mine and TK421's new club!

SciMal said:
tldr snip
Just read this http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/22/trevor_pott_on_windows_8/ I'm sure he knows what he's talking about a lot more than you or I.
 

DragonStorm247

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PC's aren't going anywhere. There are too many functions that are just incompatible with the mobile experience.

"Core" games - games that require high end hardware, large screens, an input device that's not a touch screen.

Word processing - I dare you to write a 10 page paper using only the touch screen on a mobile device.

Porn (there I said it) - Let's be honest here, who the hell needs mobility or a tiny screen for watching porn?
 

JediMB

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PC gaming isn't exactly dying, considering that it's been gaining lots of market share in recent years. The indie market is growing, new venues for funding and selling games are opening up, and Steam is solid as a rock.

It may very well change in form, but only to a degree where it will still retain its functionality. And if you're looking for traditional PC functionality, it's just a huge waste of money to invest in a tablet when a laptop (or desktop) gives you the same performance for less money.