I used to dislike Anita Sarkeesian, but...

generals3

New member
Mar 25, 2009
1,198
0
0
Kai Kuhl said:
generals3 said:
Ok this actually caught my attention, what is veganism doing in that list? How is that even closely related to the other kinds of activism?
Yeah, its a bit of another thing, because its more of a thing that you for yourself, not an active effort to change the way people think, (except vegan activists, like Gary Yourofsky). But it gets ridiculed in a similar way like other movements who wants to change the world to a better place.
Uh-uh a world where i can't enjoy a steak with fries or roasted chicken is not a better place. That's hell. I don't have anything against people who don't want to eat meat but I'll be damned if someone is trying to take away mah meat!
 

Smeatza

New member
Dec 12, 2011
934
0
0
Scott Rothman said:
Smeatza said:
Simply put, you are a fundamentalist.
No.
Yes, look it up.

Scott Rothman said:
Seriously, look at opinions and perceptions of the police and LAPD by Caucasians prior to and post the Rodney King beatings.
Your rambling has failed to retain even the illusion of relevance.

Scott Rothman said:
I gave examples of sexism in the industry, which you simply dismissed saying 'those require a long conversation'
No you didn't.
You asserted two things:

Scott Rothman said:
The fact that people still think that women are a huge minority in the industry (when they actually comprise almost half) is proof of that (there is a widespread issue of sexism in the industry) alone."
First of all, even if that is true, it doesn't prove what you say it does.
Second of all, can you prove that's true?
Third of all, who are "people?" Does it matter if the general public is misinformed? Or is it more about developers and publishers? Does this misinformation actually have a tangible effect on the industry and it's products? Should we ignore the gender splits for genre and platform as you seem to be suggesting? Do we have a right to demand that certain unpopular things become popular and vice versa?
If you want to jump to conclusions for all these questions then feel free, but don't expect more rational people to eat up assertions you make that are based off your flawed conclusions.

Scott Rothman said:
The fact that people can't see why people would take offense to characters like Dragon's Crown's Sorceress, or can't see the difference of exploitation between a the sorceress and her male counterparts, is proof.
Whenever an advert pops up that shows an interracial couple, thousands of people take offense.
I guess that means there's a widespread problem with the oversaturation of advertisements with interracial couples does it? Or that interracial couples are an inherently offensive thing?
The latter part of this quote only serves to prove that you haven't played the game.

Scott Rothman said:
I don't agree with a lot of what she asserts. I don't think negative portrayals of women directly contribute to increased sexist acts. I do agree that negative portrayals of female characters ostracizes and keeps women out of the industry, which is why that 'men spend more money on video games' argument is bullshit.
Well I would say that is another misleading, gross simplification.
Well I just bought Saints Row Four and the entertainment you've provided is running dry, so yeah, I'll leave you to it.
 

DaMullet

New member
Nov 28, 2009
303
0
0
shrekfan246 said:
OT: To be honest, I haven't actually watched her videos. They're lengthy, supposedly rather dry, and she apparently spends more time simply pointing out the issues than trying to offer suggestions on how to change them for the better. I have nothing against her, and all of the people getting angry about her are just giving her a louder and louder voice to sway the industry with.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with having games like Mario, Dragon's Crown, The Witcher, or even Gears of War; So long as they aren't the overwhelming majority, which currently they tend to be. I don't believe there's a problem with having strong, nuanced, deep stories with complex characters and stereotypical "Bowser is holding the Princess hostage!" stories. Unfortunately, apart from being brought about by sheer laziness on the writers' parts, I don't know why these tropes show up as often as they do and so I don't know what we can really do to change it.
Her videos are very 'educational' meant to inform more then entertain. Which is completely different then say the Jimquisition or The Game Overthinker. If you compare them to the videos you saw in school when the teacher pulled in that TV on a stand, then they seem appropriate. And she's only really covered ONE topic in the 3 videos that she's released so I'm not surprised that it does seem drawn out.

How to change? Simple; Necessity is the mother of invention.

Let's say EA decides that for 1 year they won't green light any games that have a Damsel in Distress or Woman in the Fridge story lines in response to this. What do you think will happen? Those lazy writers will actually have to try and come up with something different, obviously! I really don't see any problems with having games with kick ass women in them like there are in Aliens or Judge Dredd (2012). If she gets nothing else right but gives me games that are not just rescue the girl; then I applaud her effort, what ever the shaky path may be.
 

Kai Kuhl

New member
Nov 13, 2012
16
0
0
carnex said:
Kai Kuhl said:
generals3 said:
Ok this actually caught my attention, what is veganism doing in that list? How is that even closely related to the other kinds of activism?
Yeah, its a bit of another thing, because its more of a thing that you for yourself, not an active effort to change the way people think, (except vegan activists, like Gary Yourofsky). But it gets ridiculed in a similar way like other movements who wants to change the world to a better place.
You are making a huge leap of logic there. To your preferences does not mean better place. Better place requires a lot of argumentation. Since you present none what you are doing is "I like that so I'm present it as beneficial so I could morally shame people who oppose it"
Well, dont know how you are defining a better world, but in my world I dont want to have industrialized suffering and killing of creatures that can obviously feel emotions and even think. Every animal product that you buy supports an industry that makes money out of the suffering of said creatures, much like every slave that got selled in the 18th century supported the suffering of african people. In that angle of perspective, veganism isnt just a preference, but a political and ethical statement.
 

Harrowdown

New member
Jan 11, 2010
338
0
0
Skops said:
*sigh*... With all due respect, I just don't care. And have never cared about this 'sexism' issue. How many bloody threads are we gunna have about this before we put this to bed? I'm not upset, I'm exhausted of this topic and I wonder when this community will have some ELSE to talk about.
If you're tired of the issue, then don't click on threads with Anita Sarkeesian's name in the title. Telling us that you don't care isn't constructive, it's just dismissing a very real issue because you're not personally affected.
 

Knight1172

New member
May 7, 2008
26
0
0
I'm going to be the layman here and say that I would enjoy more female protagonists.

But yeah, I generally think Anita Sarkeesian has made her point, and she contributed atleast to the discussion of sexism in games. I don't care anymore. I'm sorry, I don't. I'm not going to pull the 'Appeal to Bigger Problems' stick, I'm just going to state that the debate and the media has moved on. The Last of Us has come out, where the WASP Male Protagonist is cared for by a young woman. Yes, there's flaws in that analogy, and I really don't care enough to debate it, but it's a step that hadn't been taken before. Beyond Two Souls is on the way. Saints Row 4, while appealing to male gamers, never the less allows you to be an overweight, transvestite Asian woman.

We're moving on. The Sarkeesian affair was very enlightening to me, as a direct precursor to what we see now as commenters and gamers harass people like Phil Fish and Jennifer Hepler. It also made me favour more female protagonists.

It's made it's point. It has contributed. Going back to her again and again like some kind of holy scripture promotes the same kind of knee jerk reaction we got at the beginning.

Now, I'm going to point out that I find her annoying as shit for entirely subjective reasons, so that might well be a big factor in the whole 'Can we please find something else to talk about?'.
 

carnex

New member
Jan 9, 2008
828
0
0
Kai Kuhl said:
Well, dont know how you are defining a better world, but in my world I dont want to have industrialized suffering and killing of creatures that can obviously feel emotions and even think. Every animal product that you buy supports an industry that makes money out of the suffering of said creatures, much like every slave that got selled in the 18th century supported the suffering of african people. In that angle of perspective, veganism isnt just a preference, but a political and ethical statement.
1) You assume that I support suffering since I am pro choice on most things, even what food people consume. That is incredibly entitled and reeks of prejudice. In 18 century people who actively opposed slavery have worn cotton.

2) You compare animals and humans. No matter how much I love animals, and despise many human beings that is beyond my understanding.

3) I have seen studies that plants react to harm being done to them. Their activities speed up and they actively sway away from harm at rate available to them. That makes your statement really superficial. Just because it doesn't scream it doesn't mean it's not hurt.

Yea, last one is pretty extreme as an argument and I'm not serious about it, but it's also true. Two of my walnut trees actually sway away from my spot where my neighbor burns his leaves, grass chippings and trash. They can't do that now, but while trees were young and thin they didn't develop branches on that side and actually lean to the opposite side.

Then again I see living wold as formed from biological imperatives and everything else as simple construction over it. I see first as neutral, in position that really can't be labeled as good or bad. Only humans can label it so in relation to their believes and well-being. So, human consumption of meat is just part of our natural feeding habit is. But if you don't feel like it, it's your own preference. I'm not gonna judge you, or even notice. But, if you try to force your believes on me, better be armed with some bloody good evidence to support your cause or be prepared to be considered pompous ass.
 

Ancientgamer

New member
Jan 16, 2009
1,346
0
0
My problem with Sarkeesian is... oh wait, I don't have a problem with her, I thought the videos were pretty good and elevated the discussion
 

Tony2077

New member
Dec 19, 2007
2,984
0
0
vivaldiscool said:
My problem with Sarkeesian is... oh wait, I don't have a problem with her, I thought the videos were pretty good and elevated the discussion
i disagree they have some good points but some of it is just pure nonsense
 

DaMullet

New member
Nov 28, 2009
303
0
0
Carpenter said:
bobleponge said:
, the Darkness guy saves his wife because he loves her.
If she hadn't taken that clip out of context or if she had played the game and explained the context you would know that "darkness guy's" name is "Jackie" and that it's not his "wife" and he doesn't "save her" but she get murdered and it breaks him completely because he needed her so much.

Yes a story where a man needs a woman to be a real person, that is absolutely sexist, but you will never see her giving you the real reason.
But of course nobody cares if your story is sexist against men so it's perfectly ok to lie to support your argument that the game is misogynistic.
.... Um... I think she had played the game actually by the way you describe it. She's opposed to women getting shafted into nothing more then plot device. "she get murdered and it breaks him completely because he needed her so much." sounds exactly like a plot device. You can replace 'she' and 'her' with it and it still makes just as much sense.
"It gets destroyed and it breaks him completely because he needed it so much."
It could be anything from his house to an heirloom, doesn't change anything. I really don't care if its even sexist or not, doesn't matter. When a whole person can be replaced with a trinket and nothing in the game changes, then that's a terrible, shallow story.

Also, in the last part of her 3rd video she does acknowledge that games are sexist towards men as well. She points out that in video games, the only way that guys can work through his emotions is to kill things. Again, really shallow story and 1 dimensional characters. She also suggest that one of the reasons why there's so much violence against women in video games is because violence is all the male characters know how to do apparently. So yes she defiantly points out the sexism towards men, its just not the topic of her discussion.
 

baconmaster

New member
Apr 15, 2008
69
0
0
Eacaraxe said:
FriendlyFyre said:
I'm always curious why people say she leaves no room for discussion just because she disabled her youtube comments. You could always e-mail her site and engage from that angle, it's not like youtube is the only way to start dialogues, though I believe these are pretty rare given the age of youtube commenters.

Of course the real problem is that she probably has thousands of those (and more then likely just a ton of ugly hate mail) and can't respond to everything as fast as you'd like.
So I guess talking about her on a forum is the next best thing in my mind...

As for her "research," isn't her thesis available online?
The problem is not merely that she disables Youtube comments. I don't think one person could make a reasonable argument against doing that, given the general attitude, intelligence, and cogency of the average Youtube comment on non-controversial videos, let alone ones that handle sensitive or controversial topics. The problem is that she largely ignores, or at least fails to respond to in an intellectually-honest and charitable manner, reasonable, respectful, and cogent criticism of her work -- regardless of venue. It's not even a matter of not having access to, or not reading, criticism, given the amount of time she spends discussing the unreasonable, destructive, or ill-conceived criticism and repeating the threats and invective levied against her that only other A-holes and trolls attempt to defend -- if she has that much time to respond to the internet's sewage, she certainly has the time to respond to quality criticism.

She seems to have more interest in knocking down straw men, and creating an echo chamber than a meaningful, productive dialog. I concluded a long time ago she falls into the category most liberal, academic radical feminists fall into -- she's so convinced she's right, and that her cause is righteous and just, anyone "capable" and/or "has done their research" will agree with her by dint of her having spoken, and that anyone who disagrees or approaches her outside the confines of radical feminist discourse is simply an unfortunate product of patriarchy. It's not a narrative designed really for education, outreach, or encouraging discourse; it's by, of, and for those who share her beliefs for the purpose of self-perpetuity. At least, that's my opinion.

That's before you consider the number of questions about the veracity and ethics of her work -- whether or not she's a plagiarist, whether her research was dutifully done in its full context (i.e. whether she played these games about which she speaks, given displayed ignorance of plot points, characters, and the context of shown game scenes). Hell, I remember her critique of Kanye's video "Monster" in which she completely missed the entire point of the song and video...the very point she was making.
THANK YOU. You basically summed up my thoughts on the subject. She's just not a very good spokesperson for her cause. A lot of her fans are even worse, as they lash out against ANYONE raising ANY criticism against her, no matter how valid it is. The whole thing is just becoming a waste of time
 

DaMullet

New member
Nov 28, 2009
303
0
0
The Dubya said:
Aren't you glad she got $150,000 and spent 90 minutes of Youtube video to ultimately tell us "Hey, this is an overused trope so maybe we should kinda chill out on it"?

I SURE AM! What a groundbreaking prophet Anita is :D
I don't think she was ready for all this and I think its showing.

Put yourself in her shoes.

Take an idea or concept that's really important to you that you've talked about with some people and maybe posted a few things online. After you get a small respectable group of followers that share your ideas, you wanted to raise a bit of money so you could make a handful of you tube that don't look like shit.

Then, before you've even done anything else, the world suddenly thrusts on you
- 25 times the amount of money you asked for
- And endless sea of death and rape threats
- An army of assholes who are hell bent on discrediting you
- Phone calls from news networks
- An expectation to live up to the 25 times the money you never asked for or else you could never show your face in public again

I don't know if I could make that big of a jump, from a foot note to making headlines, and do it PERFECTLY on the FIRST go. I seriously doubt anyone could.
 

CloudAtlas

New member
Mar 16, 2013
873
0
0
erttheking said:
You know, something about this has been bugging me for awhile, but I couldn't put my finger on it until now. I never was a huge fan of Anita, she just comes off as just boring. Her videos made lukewarm arguments at best, the connections to RL abuse that she makes REALLY stretches it. But...the reaction to her just makes me feel uncomfortable. I disagree with her, but that's it, I disagree with her and that's all I feel the need to do. I watch her videos, say "meh, whatever," and then they drift out of my mind. I can't even remember much about her videos aside from bits and pieces here and there. The thing is, Anita really has revealed a lot of problems in the gaming community. Not through her videos though, through the reactions to it.

Seriously, she made three boring ass videos that ran for twenty minutes each. Her points aren't that strong. So can I please ask why people get so royally pissed off at her? Why are people throwing every last insult at her that they can? On this website alone I've seen accusations that she's never played a game before in her life and that that was a fact, that she's a fraud, a con-artist, a hack, that she's trying to build a cult around herself (SERIOUSLY!?), that she wasn't a real feminist, that she was intentionally provoking people to insult her so that she could play the victim card, etc etc. The thing that really bugs me is that a lot of people on this website alone aren't trying to argue her points she makes in her videos. They're viciously attacking her in every way that they can, trying to discredit her, trying to make it look like any argument that she ever makes is invalid and...why? Because she tried to argue that there is sexism in the gaming community and industry? Because she had the gall to make youtube videos that are just plain mediocre? Why? What has she done to earn such rage? If she's wrong, just do what I did, say that she's wrong and move on.

But this obsession with hating her, the sheer amount of people that scrounge for every last detail to use against her makes me uncomfortable. I was bored to tears by her videos, to the point where I didn't even bother watching the third one. I really don't get what about her makes people feel so insecure that they feel the need to lash out at her like this. It makes me feel more uncomfortable about the gaming community than any of her videos did. It makes me think that maybe we do have problems. Anita said "I think there are sexism problems in the community," and so many people screamed back "we're not sexist you stupid ****!". Their words said one thing. Their actions another.
Quote not abridged because everyone on the hate train should really ask himself these questions.

I would have never taken notice of her kickstarter campaign if it wasn't for reports of all the hate and vitriol she received. That's the reason, and the only reason really, why I became a backer. Like many others, I wanted to make a statement, I wanted to show that I'm not okay with this behavior. No matter what I think of her actual videos (not terribly entertaining, mostly correct, but could be better), that alone was worth it, and I have no regrets.

Honestly, she didn't even have to release a single video. The reactions to the mere announcement of her intention to say something on the issue already proved that there is indeed a problem. And the reactions, the tone, here and elsewhere, just go on to make this point.

People hated her right from the start, and are just looking for anything to discredit her, from legitimate concerns to entirely fabricated accusations, to justify their hate. To make them look better than the misogynist pricks they are, in the face of others and themselves. Or, in your words, ert:

Anita said "I think there are sexism problems in the community," and so many people screamed back "we're not sexist you stupid ****!". Their words said one thing. Their actions another.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

New member
Mar 28, 2010
1,028
0
0
CloudAtlas said:
Quote not abridged because everyone on the hate train should really ask himself these questions.
This is just me, but at what I'm primarily pissed is she is taking quite real and serious problems in the gaming industry and community, and handling them in such a poor way it undermines her credibility as well as the reality and gravityof these issues. And, in doing so, it puts individuals like me who fundamentally support her arguments, in a position in which we can't fully endorse her for having screwed the pooch in the process.

I'll support someone who argues females get a very, very bad rap in video games and the gaming community. It's the gorram truth, and anyone who argues otherwise is either a lying SOB or plain ignorant. I won't support someone who refuses to engage valid and reasonable critics in a forward and intellectually honest manner while personally profiting from invalid and unreasonable critics. Neither can I support someone who purports themselves as academic then uses faulty content analysis; fails to provide linkage between premises, support, and conclusion; and won't release her research and documentation for consumption and review. Neither will I ever support someone who is an alleged plagiarist -- and yes, that is the core issue with this LP-copping fracas, not copyright violation but plagiarism.

She's a poor spokesperson for these issues, and undermines the salience of these issues and makes further argumentation harder, for the very real concerns about her ethics and academic honesty.
 

CloudAtlas

New member
Mar 16, 2013
873
0
0
Eacaraxe said:
CloudAtlas said:
Quote not abridged because everyone on the hate train should really ask himself these questions.
This is just me, but at what I'm primarily pissed is she is taking quite real and serious problems in the gaming industry and community, and handling them in such a poor way it undermines her credibility as well as the reality and gravityof these issues. And, in doing so, it puts individuals like me who fundamentally support her arguments, in a position in which we can't fully endorse her for having screwed the pooch in the process.

I'll support someone who argues females get a very, very bad rap in video games and the gaming community. It's the gorram truth, and anyone who argues otherwise is either a lying SOB or plain ignorant. I won't support someone who refuses to engage valid and reasonable critics in a forward and intellectually honest manner while personally profiting from invalid and unreasonable critics. Neither can I support someone who purports themselves as academic then uses faulty content analysis; fails to provide linkage between premises, support, and conclusion; and won't release her research and documentation for consumption and review. Neither will I ever support someone who is an alleged plagiarist -- and yes, that is the core issue with this LP-copping fracas, not copyright violation but plagiarism.

She's a poor spokesperson for these issues, and undermines the salience of these issues and makes further argumentation harder, for the very real concerns about her ethics and academic honesty.
Don't fight for her then, fight for your common cause. We'll meet another there.

And I assume we will agree on one more thing: Her being, in your eyes, a poor defender of her cause is not the main reason why she receives so much flak and abuse - it is the cause itself.
 

thejoshualee

New member
Mar 12, 2009
44
0
0
I've enjoyed her videos quite a bit- apart from a few snarky remarks she makes which I believe is more of an attempt to bring some "voice" to her videos- everything is fairly presented and even entertaining.
I've brought up her points to a number of gaming friends of mine and they always say I have a point- until I tell them where I got ideas from Sarkesan, they get all bent out of shape.
Plus... and this has nothing to do with her videos, I really like the way her last name is pronounced.
Sarkesan. Sarkeeeeesan. Sar Keeeeeeee San. Nice.
 

NeedsaBetterName22

New member
Jun 14, 2013
63
0
0
In all honesty, I think that the entire Sarkeesian discussion has actually become pretty self-destructive because it's gone on for so long and divided so many 'gamers' (I loathe that term as a sense of identity). I'm viewing this purely from an industry standpoint though. Using the entire Sarkeesian debate as market data, it would not surprise me that publishers would justify less female protagonists due to it being 'too risky'. I mean, this is the generation of massive budgets and demands to 'appeal to a broader audience' (which really just translates to blandness, but I digress). These folks think purely in terms of market, and they'll likely stay with their 'tried and true' method (even as EA loses money each year) rather than take risks to further diversify.

I'm personally not a fan of her work and feel that someone like Jolie O'Dell is more qualified to be in her position.