I used to dislike Anita Sarkeesian, but...

Apr 24, 2008
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bobleponge said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
bobleponge said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
DaMullet said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
snip
You're missing something obvious there. You could make the Darkness a game based on the mourning of a missing trinket, but there's no way you'd have any sympathy for Jackie. In a Charles Manson video-game I would be seriously doubting the protagonists motivations the whole way. A measure of sympathy for the controlled character is a good thing, the death of a loved one is as universal of an emotionally charged event as you could find, they chose it for good reason.

Yeah, a video game where the character kills a bunch of people just to get a trinket would never work! Because we've forgotten that the Uncharted series (and really, any Indiana Jones-style game) exists!
Ha!

Do you play it to be sympathetic towards Drake though? I've said before that I don't think the Uncharted series has good story, and that I have no real sympathy for Drake's actions(I actually did for Jackie, and largely because of the scene we were talking about). It's still a fun ride, I'm not knocking the series...

I find the notion that you could easily swap out Jackie's girlfriend for a trinket to be utter nonsense, that's what I'm saying. It's not the same thing, it doesn't have the same punch. Still, I should probably be thankful that you're not suggesting that I get off on murdering people's children and what not. So... thanks for that.
You're kind of missing the point. The point is that there are an infinite number of other ways of motivating a character besides "getting revenge for/rescuing a female." It's not like that is the apex of character motivations; in fact, if anything it's one of the lazier choices a creator can make, because it's played out and it reduces a major character to a one-dimensional object. That's the great thing about avoiding stereotypes. You are forced to come up with something new, and almost 100% of the time what you come up with is more effective than relying on old tropes.
Replace "female" with "loved one" and actually... Yes, I do think it's right there on the apex of human character motivation, up there with survival. It's as good as anything. Protect this, get revenge for that... It's not only games that constantly employ these basic ideas, it's everything, and for good reason.
 

Billy D Williams

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I'm not saying you can't have this conversation (even if I did have the authority to), but is there really more that we can add to this debate? I mean seriously, hasn't everything been said on the topic already? I know we like to beat a topic to death every once in a while around here (cough cough Mass Effect 3 ending cough cough) but this is starting to go a little far, even for our standards.

Anyways, if you do want my two cents on her, she is boring, she is a little misleading and isn't always accurate with her claims and she boring. Is she correct in her ideas? A few, doesn't change the fact that she is almost impossible to watch.

Also, how does her greenscreen and Adobe After Effects justify a $130,000 Kickstarter? I mean I know she didn't ask for that much, but it doesn't justify not really being upfront with where its going (at least that I know of, I haven't really done to much research admittedly).
 

carnex

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bobleponge said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
Except... video games are the only medium that relies so heavily on this as motivation. Most legitimate great art relies on actual real-life human motivations that people actually deal with (how many people do you know that have their loved one kidnapped, and then had no other choice but to go rescue them?). The only other place that you see this so commonly is in action movies (which video games love to imitate). I'd bet you can't name 5 non-action movies/books/tv shows/plays that are about a dude rescuing the woman he loves, or about a dude getting revenge on somebody for the woman he loves (heck, even if it's non-gender-specific I bet you can't do it).

I promise you, it's not common because it's effective, it's common because it's easy.
I thhink you didn't realize one important difference between games with story and games with excuse.

Excuse sets a goal and moves away. That is all t is, a goal. And it moves away for interactive part to kick in. Like old arcade games, or more recently Great Giana Sisters Twisted Dreams, or Super Meat Boy.

Story stays with player. It goes with player along the game. Game becomes about journey. Goal is still set, but it, more then often, goes forgotten by player, or is moved around, switched, abandoned or even turned in on itself. Goal servers the story. Uncharted games, you mentioned, are perfect examples of using some of these tactics. Game is about journey. Half way in the game you have hard time remembering why did you go on a journey in the first place.

Since excuse has to set goal, people go for high emotional stakes. It's not necessary, but it's what hits us in the guts. Yes, we would go after treasure, or just to dick around. Often players totaly skip story (that is not option for developers though, they kind of have to put in story or excuse even if there are examples of games without either) and just go for gameplay.

But those two ways of giving context works in different ways and on different games. example of how wrong using a story is Duck Tales Remastered. Story interrupts gameplay, but developers knew that if they didn't interrupt gameplay all the story tid-bits would be ignored or just overheard. Which means that story didn't have its place in that game in the first place.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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bobleponge said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
bobleponge said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
bobleponge said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
DaMullet said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
snip
You're missing something obvious there. You could make the Darkness a game based on the mourning of a missing trinket, but there's no way you'd have any sympathy for Jackie. In a Charles Manson video-game I would be seriously doubting the protagonists motivations the whole way. A measure of sympathy for the controlled character is a good thing, the death of a loved one is as universal of an emotionally charged event as you could find, they chose it for good reason.

Yeah, a video game where the character kills a bunch of people just to get a trinket would never work! Because we've forgotten that the Uncharted series (and really, any Indiana Jones-style game) exists!
Ha!

Do you play it to be sympathetic towards Drake though? I've said before that I don't think the Uncharted series has good story, and that I have no real sympathy for Drake's actions(I actually did for Jackie, and largely because of the scene we were talking about). It's still a fun ride, I'm not knocking the series...

I find the notion that you could easily swap out Jackie's girlfriend for a trinket to be utter nonsense, that's what I'm saying. It's not the same thing, it doesn't have the same punch. Still, I should probably be thankful that you're not suggesting that I get off on murdering people's children and what not. So... thanks for that.
You're kind of missing the point. The point is that there are an infinite number of other ways of motivating a character besides "getting revenge for/rescuing a female." It's not like that is the apex of character motivations; in fact, if anything it's one of the lazier choices a creator can make, because it's played out and it reduces a major character to a one-dimensional object. That's the great thing about avoiding stereotypes. You are forced to come up with something new, and almost 100% of the time what you come up with is more effective than relying on old tropes.
Replace "female" with "loved one" and actually... Yes, I do think it's right there on the apex of human character motivation, up there with survival. It's as good as anything. Protect this, get revenge for that... It's not only games that constantly employ these basic ideas, it's everything, and for good reason.
Except... video games are the only medium that relies so heavily on this as motivation. Most legitimate great art relies on actual real-life human motivations that people actually deal with (how many people do you know that have their loved one kidnapped, and then had no other choice but to go rescue them?). The only other place that you see this so commonly is in action movies (which video games love to imitate). I'd bet you can't name 5 non-action movies/books/tv shows/plays that are about a dude rescuing the woman he loves, or about a dude getting revenge on somebody for the woman he loves (heck, even if it's non-gender-specific I bet you can't do it).

I promise you, it's not common because it's effective, it's common because it's easy.
It's a plot point that requires action to resolve... you're being ridiculous. Can you name me 5 better character motivations for an ensuing bloodbath? Rescue, revenge and survival are what's commonly used... Again, it's because it works. Those are good calls to action, they speak to us.

You're right that video-games are closer to action films than any other genre, but... Frankly, so fucking what? That's obvious, action(space traversal and combat) is what a game does well, all other forms of drama that they attempt tend to fall flat, or at least pale in comparison to what film can do.

Games should(and mostly do) play to strength. The mechanics come first, the story comes second.
 

thenoblitt

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im pissed that she spent the kickstarter money on other things like a 1k pair of shoes, and she released her video like 6 months late, and it wasnt even higher quality than her free videos she made before.
 

Uhura

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@thenoblitt
How do you know if she has spent KS money on shoes? Are you talking about that fake tweet?
 

Smeggs

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My stance is still and always has been that I just don't care. Couldn't care less about her or her videos. Maybe if they actually seemed like they might spur some form of change I may take note, but otherwise, just another person shouting about things that hardly effect people in their daily lives outside of video games.

FriendlyFyre said:
Daystar Clarion said:
I don't dislike the fact she has ideas.

I dislike the fact she closes off any chance of anyone debating the issues with her ideas.

If she were a scientist, she'd refuse to have her research peer reviewed.
I'm always curious why people say she leaves no room for discussion just because she disabled her youtube comments. You could always e-mail her site and engage from that angle, it's not like youtube is the only way to start dialogues, though I believe these are pretty rare given the age of youtube commenters.

Of course the real problem is that she probably has thousands of those (and more then likely just a ton of ugly hate mail) and can't respond to everything as fast as you'd like.
So I guess talking about her on a forum is the next best thing in my mind...

As for her "research," isn't her thesis available online?
Considering all of the flaming, trolling, venom and vitriol she'd get on her comments section regardless of whether or not people actually watched the video, I'm surprised anybody even questions why she would close comments.

If you really want to talk with the woman, then yeah, you could try emailing her, but considering she probably receives just as much bigoted hate mail from that as well I'd be unsurprised if she never answered back.

Still, that's no excuse to avoid debate altogether. That shows a sign of not only lack of faith in your own points being made, but a lack of reason and makes it seem as though you're just as close-minded as those flamers and trolls.
 

Angelblaze

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Angelblaze said:
Zenn3k said:
shrekfan246 said:
Zenn3k said:
If you aren't properly informed on a topic, you shouldn't be trying to change peoples opinions on them. End of discussion.
So what you're telling me is that you've spent a few days or weeks as a female in the video game community, then? Enduring things like being called "the *****" because you dared question the potential sexism in the industry/community?

Because if you're not properly informed on how females are treated or react to these things, you shouldn't be trying to change their opinions, right?
First off, your comment is about a strawman as it gets.

But for the record, I played a female toon in a MMO for years. I also had a male toon in that same MMO.

The female toon was treated better, given free stuff, invited early to dungeons and raids, and practically royalty.

The male toon was just "another person". Where is her video on THAT topic? How women are treated better in online social settings? Oh wait, that doesn't fit her "victim" story, better leave that out as well.
Please tell me more about how your ONE case actually proves that all women - and I mean EVERY. LAST. ONE - in MMOs are treated like royalty, because speaking as a woman nothing is further from the truth.

Part of the reason I had to change my name to a non-gendered one in LoL is because of some of the shit that I was told - people mud sling a hellova lot less when your 'just another person' believe it or not.

Furthermore, did you keep charts that compared and contrasted all of the information you just described such as the items given, the value of said items, so on and so forth? Because if not, you could just be facing a case of 'Grass is greener.', you felt like you were treated as being special because you were quicker to notice, because things were different.


Plus, why do guys immediately assume that I WANT to be treated differently then anyone else for being a woman, simply because I say I am? I want to identify as my gender and not be called 'him' or 'that guy' without getting some super special treatment because of it.

If someone tried to give me free blue and orange equips in PoE simply because I was a woman, I'd actually be offended. I consider it almost an insult really - like a 'You probably can't do it without me because your a giiiiiirl' type thing, even when I know its not meant that way. Same for guys who just follow you mindlessly in MMOS trying to get added to your friends list.

No.
I will not add you.
I don't care how 'sweet' and 'chivalrous' you THINK you're acting.
I don't want any of your, or anyone elses fucking attention or gifts unless its out of actual non-gender related friendship or kindness.
I'd like to note that this was never responded to despite the fact that the poster still lurks this thread, occasionally posting - would really like to see your response at this point.
 

MoeMints

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Angelblaze said:
I'd like to note that this was never responded to despite the fact that the poster still lurks this thread, occasionally posting - would really like to see your response at this point.
That post was a fallacious rant that uses as little credibility as what its responding too, since it also uses ONE case.
 

SnakeCL

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Smeggs said:
My stance is still and always has been that I just don't care. Couldn't care less about her or her videos. Maybe if they actually seemed like they might spur some form of change I may take note, but otherwise, just another person shouting about things that hardly effect people in their daily lives outside of video games.

FriendlyFyre said:
Daystar Clarion said:
I don't dislike the fact she has ideas.

I dislike the fact she closes off any chance of anyone debating the issues with her ideas.

If she were a scientist, she'd refuse to have her research peer reviewed.
I'm always curious why people say she leaves no room for discussion just because she disabled her youtube comments. You could always e-mail her site and engage from that angle, it's not like youtube is the only way to start dialogues, though I believe these are pretty rare given the age of youtube commenters.

Of course the real problem is that she probably has thousands of those (and more then likely just a ton of ugly hate mail) and can't respond to everything as fast as you'd like.
So I guess talking about her on a forum is the next best thing in my mind...

As for her "research," isn't her thesis available online?
Considering all of the flaming, trolling, venom and vitriol she'd get on her comments section regardless of whether or not people actually watched the video, I'm surprised anybody even questions why she would close comments.

If you really want to talk with the woman, then yeah, you could try emailing her, but considering she probably receives just as much bigoted hate mail from that as well I'd be unsurprised if she never answered back.

Still, that's no excuse to avoid debate altogether. That shows a sign of not only lack of faith in your own points being made, but a lack of reason and makes it seem as though you're just as close-minded as those flamers and trolls.
Other Youtube commentators get death threats, vitriol, trolling and venom thrown at them (like Thunderf00t, who also had his face photoshopped onto some gay porn and circulated). His comment section is still open in his videos.

Men's Rights Commentators like girlwriteswhat have open youtube commentation, and they get called some terrible things too, their real home addresses and phone numbers leaked, phone calls to their jobs and schools.

The difference is that these individuals view freedom if speech and free exchange of ideas as more important.
 

Grampy_bone

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Would anyone take Anita seriously if she were a man?

Think about it.

In western society we are all programmed to take notice whenever a woman is upset about *anything.*

Anita is just another Jack Thompson. Videogames brainwash people into committing violence. *yawn*

Her opinions are lacking in merit and have no value whatsoever. She deserves not the slightest countenance from anyone.

Yet here we are, having yet another 12 page discussion about it.

If games promote misogyny, then games also promote violence (and theft, and vandalism). End of story. There is no escaping this argument. There is no way you can claim gaming influences certain types of behavior and not others. All or none gentlemen.
 

SilverUchiha

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My issue isn't so much about her opinions or her ideas. Granted, all she's really doing is pointing out the obvious (thus far) in her game series. That said, she has managed to point out a few things I hadn't noticed, but nothing all that shocking either.

What really bugs me the most is how she spends somewhere near half-an-hour to get her point across in a single video (which ended up being multiple videos covering one subject). I'm pretty sure those videos could have been cut down quite a bit to make them punchier, more digestible, and it might even allow her to release more of them more frequently. Especially when I see other video series covering similar controversial topics and they manage to get most of the information and opinions out in 10 minutes or less. And sometimes they even go out of their way to make it entertaining to boot.
 

DaMullet

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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
You're missing something obvious there. You could make the Darkness a game based on the mourning of a missing trinket, but there's no way you'd have any sympathy for Jackie. In a Charles Manson video-game I would be seriously doubting the protagonists motivations the whole way. A measure of sympathy for the controlled character is a good thing, the death of a loved one is as universal of an emotionally charged event as you could find, they chose it for good reason.

I don't know what you're trying to prove. Sure, there are games that don't only revolve around killing(though I do find it funny that 3 of your 6 or 7 examples feature it heavily), it doesn't at all negate the fun of play-violence. That was a very weak attempt at character-assassination, I don't kill peoples children... I initiate the rearranging of polygons on my screen, red is heavily featured... someone should lock me away.

"And lastly"...

I can't help but feel this is too nebulous to be meaningful(though again, your example makes me laugh). I agree with your point about hindsight though(not in your details). I have a feeling we're going to look back on this anti-masculinity bent that we've been on for a while now and wonder what the fuck we were thinking.
You're going to have to do better then that to convince me that people play the darkness for the moving emotional story line. :D

I have nothing against play-violence, I enjoy me some Mortal Kombat every once in a while. But the violence in that game is completely different then the violence in a game like Postal (Just going to the extreme example here). Like the difference between a willing battle to the death between opponents and a racist firing squad. Sure, in both scenarios, someone dies, but it's completely different. I feel that too many games out there you're placed in the role of an executioner. Kill these people because we told you too regardless if they're innocent or not. And I don't really care if its just polygons or not; the game tells its story through its gameplay. Its hard for me to connect, feel sympathy, or even feel comfortable with a protagonist that slaughters people without any remorse. And I have to raise an eyebrow at anyone that can.

(The difference in violence in Mass Effect, even though it does focus on combat, is that you know why you're fighting each group of enemies in each mission. A lot of times you can have conversations and try to make peace/truce with them and not to fight. Then when they choose to fight, you know that this is what they want.)

Anti-masculinity? I'm sorry, but who the fuck is talking about anti-masculinity? Cause I'm sure not. My beef is the fact that some men think its okay to look at women as things instead of equals. Problems are not fixed by inverting the issue. Black slavery wasn't fixed because they enforced white slavery. Men have their own list of problems and kicking them when we're down is just cruel. But that's not the topic that we're talking about here. Antia is focusing on one problem; one problem out of many in the world. So why do you think that the media treating women on equal footing as men would require men to be less then what they are?
 
Apr 24, 2008
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DaMullet said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
You're missing something obvious there. You could make the Darkness a game based on the mourning of a missing trinket, but there's no way you'd have any sympathy for Jackie. In a Charles Manson video-game I would be seriously doubting the protagonists motivations the whole way. A measure of sympathy for the controlled character is a good thing, the death of a loved one is as universal of an emotionally charged event as you could find, they chose it for good reason.

I don't know what you're trying to prove. Sure, there are games that don't only revolve around killing(though I do find it funny that 3 of your 6 or 7 examples feature it heavily), it doesn't at all negate the fun of play-violence. That was a very weak attempt at character-assassination, I don't kill peoples children... I initiate the rearranging of polygons on my screen, red is heavily featured... someone should lock me away.

"And lastly"...

I can't help but feel this is too nebulous to be meaningful(though again, your example makes me laugh). I agree with your point about hindsight though(not in your details). I have a feeling we're going to look back on this anti-masculinity bent that we've been on for a while now and wonder what the fuck we were thinking.
You're going to have to do better then that to convince me that people play the darkness for the moving emotional story line. :D

I have nothing against play-violence, I enjoy me some Mortal Kombat every once in a while. But the violence in that game is completely different then the violence in a game like Postal (Just going to the extreme example here). Like the difference between a willing battle to the death between opponents and a racist firing squad. Sure, in both scenarios, someone dies, but it's completely different. I feel that too many games out there you're placed in the role of an executioner. Kill these people because we told you too regardless if they're innocent or not. And I don't really care if its just polygons or not; the game tells its story through its gameplay. Its hard for me to connect, feel sympathy, or even feel comfortable with a protagonist that slaughters people without any remorse. And I have to raise an eyebrow at anyone that can.

(The difference in violence in Mass Effect, even though it does focus on combat, is that you know why you're fighting each group of enemies in each mission. A lot of times you can have conversations and try to make peace/truce with them and not to fight. Then when they choose to fight, you know that this is what they want.)

Anti-masculinity? I'm sorry, but who the fuck is talking about anti-masculinity? Cause I'm sure not. My beef is the fact that some men think its okay to look at women as things instead of equals. Problems are not fixed by inverting the issue. Black slavery wasn't fixed because they enforced white slavery. Men have their own list of problems and kicking them when we're down is just cruel. But that's not the topic that we're talking about here. Antia is focusing on one problem; one problem out of many in the world. So why do you think that the media treating women on equal footing as men would require men to be less then what they are?
I don't say they do play The Darkness for the storyline. Mechanics first, narrative second.

I mostly agree with the assertion that a game tells it's story through it's game-play too, and I think it's counter-productive when there's a clear difference between cut-scene narrative and the actual meat of the game (the action). I see no point in challenging eachothers moral view these things, we could raise eyebrows all day long and I doubt it'd do anyone any good. Opinions... I'm still laughing about "Obviously there are some people out there, like me, that don't like to be constantly murdering someone's child like you do." Good times...

You might wonder why I'm talking about anti-masculinity, I might wonder why you're bringing up racial-segregation... It actually ties in fairly nicely with "Problems are not fixed by inverting the issue.", which I do agree with. The problem being that-that seems to be exactly what our actions are achieving on the gender issue. Men aren't doing so well these days and it seems set to get worse.

By the way, your actions in Mortal-Kombat make Sub-Zero's mother and father very sad.

edit - Captcha is "bad egg". Even captcha is judging me...
 

ShakerSilver

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Nov 13, 2009
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Y'know, I've been thinking about something... why did she even need all that money in the first place? She obviously had all the recording equipment and editing software (she was making videos before her kickstarter), and probably didn't spend it on games, since she's taken all her footage from Let's Plays. Could this just have been some way to scam some money off of the social justice crowd?
http://anongamer.tumblr.com/
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1l6lsw/internet_sleuths_uncover_anita_sarkeesians_past/
 

Viredae

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Right, I'm not gonna post much on this thread, I think Anita is a fraud, or at best poor at getting her point across and her series is ultimately pointless.

I'm not gonna talk about her characters, I'm not going to pretend to know her feelings or her thoughts or any such bullcrap.

But if you wanna sit here and argue with me that "her videos make sense" then I have a challenge for you:

Get me her research material.

Because let's remember, these videos were supposedly made to be used in classrooms on an academic level, so that means there must have been some scientific research that she undertook, I also understand that Anita promised some of her actual research in the kickstarter to some of her backers, and if any of the backers actually has this research I would love to see it.

And bear in mind I want to see SCIENTIFIC research, not just opinion pieces masquerading as a sub-par college paper, because until anyone does that for me, Anita might as well be worst than Jack Thompson or Joe Lieberman when they argued "Violent Videogames make you violent" (which I'm surprised so few people mention the irony that so many people are defending what is essentially the same accusation) much like today's "sexist videogames make you sexist", because those guys that we despised so much? Remember them? They at least had that, granted, it was bought off research, but it was something at the very least.

So there's your challenge, and until you do that, I'll consider your words nothing but hogwash.
 

Thr33X

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Short and sweet...in my opinion post YOUR opinion on any form of media be it YouTube or otherwise and not allowing for others counter with THEIR opinions, productive or otherwise, is like saying "here's what I think, and I don't care what you think because what I say is more important". And that defeats the purpose of whatever message you're trying to make. Personally, I haven't even watched this video, nor will I, simply because whatever it I have to say in rebuttal of what she says can't be said. That's like being talked at as opposed to talked to, and if that's the case I'd rather not even listen.
 

Demongeneral109

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shrekfan246 said:
Zenn3k said:
Lest we forget that she is terribly under-informed on the topic of gaming and shouldn't be talking about it in the first place. The ***** doesn't even know WHO Samus is, and wants to talk about women in gaming. Fuck off Anita.
Does that mean if I don't know who Ellen Ripley is, I shouldn't be talking about women in movies?

If I don't know who Jane Austen is, should I not be talking about female authors?

If I don't know who Georgia O'Keeffe is, should I not be talking about female artists?

This might be a loaded question, but how is knowledge of who Samus is relevant to the greater topic of the portrayal of females in gaming? Better yet, considering the latest Metroid outing, it might be better that Anita doesn't know who Samus is, because Other M is one of the most embarrassing, patronizing, insulting things I've ever seen in the entire video game medium.

OT: To be honest, I haven't actually watched her videos. They're lengthy, supposedly rather dry, and she apparently spends more time simply pointing out the issues than trying to offer suggestions on how to change them for the better. I have nothing against her, and all of the people getting angry about her are just giving her a louder and louder voice to sway the industry with.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with having games like Mario, Dragon's Crown, The Witcher, or even Gears of War; So long as they aren't the overwhelming majority, which currently they tend to be. I don't believe there's a problem with having strong, nuanced, deep stories with complex characters and stereotypical "Bowser is holding the Princess hostage!" stories. Unfortunately, apart from being brought about by sheer laziness on the writers' parts, I don't know why these tropes show up as often as they do and so I don't know what we can really do to change it.
I'm just gonna go out there and say, if you wish to analyze a topic, you need to be able to desconstruct counter-examples to prove your argument. Therefore, if you want to disucss feminism in games, you damn well need to know who Samus Aran, one of the most well known females in games is. Not knowing that inherently lessens the validity of your work and invites claims of confirmation bias. If I were in her place, I would have used Samus to further my point, in that until the Other M, which handled things remarkably badly, Samus displays minimal 'feminine' traits(although this is highly debatable with the baby metroid and other such examples of femininity in her games.