If DeSantis wins

tstorm823

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This is you, being bi and monogamous
If anyone can be "bi", is there such a thing as "bi"?
This is you, being aggrieved that people are reacting badly to your Motte as part of your Bailey
No, not at all. The people (like you) giving ridiculous, mean-spirited responses reacting to any actual quality of my arguments. You see something even mildly disagreeable and immediately go for abuse as a strategy. It doesn't matter if I'm being extreme or incredibly mild, if you don't agree with me, you're gonna act like a jerk about it. There are some people on here actually discussing things, the rest of you are useless.
No, don't shift the conversation. You said I "don't account for" their existence. How does my explanation have no space for the existence of danger fetishists? They still exist just as easily in the context of my explanation as yours.
It's not your "explanation", it's your argument. Your explanation is "people can be gay inherently without a choice in the matter", which leaves plenty of other possibilities open. But your argument is "how could you possibly imagine these people choosing to be gay?", which is an argument for none of those people having made that choice. Your choice of argument does not support your conclusion. If some people can make that choice, you're gonna need an actual reason for why others cannot.
Pointing out that relevant testimony overwhelmingly contradicts your speculation is an argument from relevant experience. It's a lot more than incredulity.
You have not done that. You have provided only your own testimony, and alluded to a non-existent consensus among gay people that they all truly believe in an idea that conveniently enough came into popular culture very recently and made the gay rights movement more parallel to the racial and women's rights movements that preceded them.
 

tstorm823

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The fascinating thing is that no one here has stopped Tstorm from following his chosen course. Tstorm cannot respect that and decides that other people need to live like they do.

But it Tstorm being insulted
I never suggested anyone else has to be like me.

And it's not that I feel insulted, it's that they are attempting to insult me.
 

Silvanus

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It's not your "explanation", it's your argument. Your explanation is "people can be gay inherently without a choice in the matter", which leaves plenty of other possibilities open. But your argument is "how could you possibly imagine these people choosing to be gay?", which is an argument for none of those people having made that choice.
No, that's not my argument. Stop rewriting it.

My argument is, "People in the community we're talking about overwhelmingly report never having a decision in the matter", "I have direct experience and I never decided", and "the expedience angle is clearly deficient to explain anything more than extreme outliers".

Your choice of argument does not support your conclusion. If some people can make that choice, you're gonna need an actual reason for why others cannot.
...but you haven't established that "some people can make that choice". You've speculated that they did.

You have not done that. You have provided only your own testimony, and alluded to a non-existent consensus among gay people
Dude, there's a lot of polling and surveying into this. Besides which, I spend a lot more time in queer spaces online and off than you do. The notion that it's a choice is near-universally derided and rejected in the community because its very obviously at odds with the lived experience.

Honestly: why the fuck should anyone weigh your pure speculation over their own lived experience and testimony from those with direct experience? Why?

that they all truly believe in an idea that conveniently enough came into popular culture very recently and made the gay rights movement more parallel to the racial and women's rights movements that preceded them.
So far, I've seen that your grasp of gender/sexual history is tremendously blinkered and inaccurate to say the least. The whole "gender as distinct from biological sex is really new" ahistorical malarkey was a big clue. You force historical data to fit a prejudice and dispense with clear contrary evidence.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Go on then, let's have some examples.
Literally California.

This is my semi-annual questioning of if your first language is english?
I'm not the one saying that, Cheeto is claiming such and such diets are right-wing for no apparent reason.

Joe Rogan has said plenty of things that are right wing. At the most basic level he has self-described himself as "libertarian", which contextually is right wing on many issues. He's also said and done a load of stuff that isn't right-wing. I would suggest that Joe Rogan is perhaps not readily classifiable on a simple, linear political scale (actually, many aren't). Not least because he doesn't seem to strongly hold a lot of opinions, frequently admitting he's been wrong in the past.

The "left" is a lot more than "woke progressives". I would suggest that "woke progressives" tend to be heavy in the educated middle class and elites who have outsize media influence. In reality, a lot of left-wingers (like, inclined towards socialism) are significantly more socially conservative, but they tend to be relatively ignored by the media environment. One might point out that the success of the far right is often through appealing to some of these voters with forms of social conservatism, nationalism and so on that they don't feel they get from "woke progressives".
Right-wing has become a derogatory term throw around as basically an ad-hominem attack to allow one to ignore someone else's stance on things. Rogan overall leans left yet has been branded a right-winger just so people can be like "Rogan's a right-winger so what he says is nonsense" basically. I'm well aware that the left is more than woke progressives but that problem with the left is that is what they've become because the "left" political party, democrats, don't care about doing anything left that isn't social woke stuff because that would upset the status quo.

Maybe you want to reread what I wrote. I was talking about what ROGAN stated about himself. HE stated that he had a bias and was picking right-wing people to interview


His diet? No, his diet wasn't obviously right wing. Obviously, a bunch of right wingers decided to make an identity out of following the Atkins diet. It's like Pepe the frog. A bunch of racist decided to use it to own the libs and now they are linked
Link?

That is my point, I didn't say anything about diets and nutrition that is right-wing. I literally couldn't care less what anything falls under politically, I pick things that make the most sense to me, I'm not apart of either tribe and don't blindly follow them.
 

Ag3ma

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Right-wing has become a derogatory term
And so has left-wing. And not just that, but milquetoast centreism is now called "extreme left wing". I don't know what many right wing Americans would do if they met an actual socialist, because they've already blown their hyperbole on moderates.

Rogan overall leans left
This is not what would be supported by his voting history and general voting recommendations.
 
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tstorm823

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Dude, there's a lot of polling and surveying into this. Besides which, I spend a lot more time in queer spaces online and off than you do. The notion that it's a choice is near-universally derided and rejected in the community because its very obviously at odds with the lived experience.
I see you are doubling down on the "this is the consensus because I say so" angle.
So far, I've seen that your grasp of gender/sexual history is tremendously blinkered and inaccurate to say the least. The whole "gender as distinct from biological sex is really new" ahistorical malarkey was a big clue. You force historical data to fit a prejudice and dispense with clear contrary evidence.
Are you going to tell me the sexual revolution changed nothing? Everything is the same as it ever was, and anyone saying otherwise is wrong? There's no such thing as progress?
 

Silvanus

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I see you are doubling down on the "this is the consensus because I say so" angle.
This is kind of pathetic, to just completely ignore polling/surveying/testimony in favour of your own sheer speculation.

This isn't seriously disputed. If you want to argue its a choice, you're undeniably arguing that gay people are wrong when they describe their own experiences. You're not going to get past that by blindly insisting that community surveying and "cos I say so" are the same thing.

Are you going to tell me the sexual revolution changed nothing? Everything is the same as it ever was, and anyone saying otherwise is wrong? There's no such thing as progress?
This is perhaps the most hilariously flagrant strawman for at least a few years of this forum. I'm still open if you want to address what was actually written if ya want.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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And so has left-wing. And not just that, but milquetoast centreism is now called "extreme left wing". I don't know what many right wing Americans would do if they met an actual socialist, because they've already blown their hyperbole on moderates.



This is not what would be supported by his voting history and general voting recommendations.
And I can say the same for lefties with regards to an actual fascist. The point is to end the dumbass extremism.

Does this sound like someone that leans right overall or left overall?

What about it? What's gone so crazy left-wing in California? You gonna talk about some culture war nonsense?
Culture war nonsense is just for entertainment purposes. When I say California sucks, it's because it sucks to live in.
 

Ag3ma

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And I can say the same for lefties with regards to an actual fascist
Now on that I disagree, because I think you are wildly underestimating how far some of the US right wing are in terms of authoritarianism, illiberalism and nationalism. I mean, people talk about communists, but there barely are any and they certainly aren't in positions of power. Meanwhile, the Republican party and other figures on the right openly heap praise on people like Viktor Orban.

Does this sound like someone that leans right overall or left overall?
I can't tell. Most conservatives and right wingers do actually believe in welfare, social programs, decent healthcare access etc. The difference between the right and left in this is not whether they exist or not, but the scale they should operate on.

Culture war nonsense is just for entertainment purposes. When I say California sucks, it's because it sucks to live in.
On the contrary, CA is a great place to live: that's why it has cost of living issues. This is the same sort of reason it's more expensive to live in the USA than it is in Mexico.
 

Trunkage

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And I can say the same for lefties with regards to an actual fascist. The point is to end the dumbass extremism.
I mean, YOU have asked for people to be banned based on your own personal philosophy. Numerous times. On this forum. Sounds like an extreme way to deal with a situation to me.

So... what are we exactly doing to extremists?

Does this sound like someone that leans right overall or left overall?
In most countries, conservatives are FOR some sort of universal healthcare, welfare, work program and disability pensions. It's normal. Most conservatives are normal. The US is not normal. The Democrats would not be left-wing in most countries. They would be about what the Tories are in the UK. The Dems are conservatives.

Cry all you want about not putting expectations of other countries onto the US but...
See this. What actually happened was the reverse. Eg. Tranwomen have been allowed to play in women's sport since 1970s. By Supreme Court rulings. 50 YEARS. But somehow, NOW transwomen in sport is a problem. No, it hasn't. It hasn't been for at least 50 years.

Here, in Australia, we have had some spill over from this culture war drama. A principal at a private religious school tried to ban homosexuals and transgenders (you know, similar things to what you personally have proposed eg. banning transwomen from sports) from their school based on religious beliefs and was quickly fired by the parents. Because of course that is the proper course. Substitute any other identity in for transgender in that first sentence and see if it's acceptable. Our conservative Prime Minister at the time did try to make a bill that would allow such prejudices, but it never left the cabinet because MOST conservatives here in Australia are interested in banning people

Lefties did not jump way out to the Left. The Right went Right.... (or actually what happened is that they just moved their anger about Civil Rights elsewhere.) Because this is norm for the US

The above meme is a lie. You can tell if you just poke your head out of the collective fart that is US politics
Culture war nonsense is just for entertainment purposes. When I say California sucks, it's because it sucks to live in.
That's... capitalism. Two-tier economy is capitalism. Bill Gates and all the other rich people in California are conservatives.

Are you going to pretend that Carnegie or Rockefeller were super progressive just because they funded social programs and made schools? That would be nonsense. Just because Gates et al hand out millions of dollars does not mean they are progressive. They're guilty of all the unethical things they have done to get their money
 

Ag3ma

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That's... capitalism. Two-tier economy is capitalism. Bill Gates and all the other rich people in California are conservatives.
I'm pretty sure Bill Gates isn't a conservative. I don't think he's left wing either, mind.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I'm pretty sure Bill Gates isn't a conservative. I don't think he's left wing either, mind.
We're trying not to confuse Phoenix with large technical words, but it's true that Bill Gates is a Reaganesc Neo-Liberal
 

TheMysteriousGX

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If anyone can be "bi", is there such a thing as "bi"?
Anybody can be bilingual, that doesn't mean being bilingual doesn't exist. And if the success rate of conversion therapy camps are anything to go by, bisexual people have about the same chance of becoming straight or gay as bilingual people have of becoming monolingual
No, not at all. The people (like you) giving ridiculous, mean-spirited responses reacting to any actual quality of my arguments. You see something even mildly disagreeable and immediately go for abuse as a strategy. It doesn't matter if I'm being extreme or incredibly mild, if you don't agree with me, you're gonna act like a jerk about it. There are some people on here actually discussing things, the rest of you are useless.
You equated gay people in despotic regimes to sexual offenders, piss off.
 
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tstorm823

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I already told you, the Kinsey scale includes degrees of bisexuality and includes and acknowledges the exclusively homosexual and exclusively heterosexual orientation.
That doesn't answer the question.
This is kind of pathetic, to just completely ignore polling/surveying/testimony in favour of your own sheer speculation.
It's pretty easy to ignore something you haven't presented. Do you, by any chance, have this alleged poll data? I have been unable to find such a thing.
 

Silvanus

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It's pretty easy to ignore something you haven't presented. Do you, by any chance, have this alleged poll data? I have been unable to find such a thing.
And here I was, assuming that if you're willing to make sweeping judgements about millions of people, you'd have done some research.


While there is no single “gay gene,” there is overwhelming evidence of a biological basis for sexual orientation that is programmed into the brain before birth based on a mix of genetics and prenatal conditions, none of which the fetus chooses.




The finding is an important contribution to mounting evidence that being gay is biologically determined rather than a lifestyle choice. [...] "It erodes the idea that orientation is a choice"

Dugmore addressed the question of whether it is possible to ‘acquire’ homosexuality – and said the panel’s trawl through all available science had led to a resounding ‘No’ answer