If DeSantis wins

Silvanus

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Is anyone asking that question?
The topic does come up, yes-- when discussing past experiences of family/peers, it's quite common to comment on how inane it is that they believe it. Also in the form of how 'born this way' is an extremely common motif for queer spaces, clothes, music and protests.

When something is used as an excuse for prejudice for so long, commenting on it is pretty common.
 

tstorm823

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When something is used as an excuse for prejudice for so long, commenting on it is pretty common.
And in the era when it was classified as a mental illness and treated as effectively a defect you are born with, that was used as the reasoning for discrimination, which is why the older generation opposed ideas like homosexuality being genetic. It's perfectly rational to oppose a viewpoint used to hurt you, but that doesn't actually address the truth of the matter.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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OK, I don't really know what to tell you at this point. All I know is that I've been in LGBT+ spaces on-and-off for over 10 years, and pretty universally, if you asked someone whether they and their friends "chose" to be gay, you'd either get a laugh in the face or told to fuck off. The suggestion often evokes anger, because it's precisely the same position that fuels an enormous amount of the prejudice they/we have suffered.
But don't you understand? Your experiences don't jibe with Tscum's expectations, and therefore must be invalid, since he is so very very smart.
 

Silvanus

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And in the era when it was classified as a mental illness and treated as effectively a defect you are born with, that was used as the reasoning for discrimination, which is why the older generation opposed ideas like homosexuality being genetic. It's perfectly rational to oppose a viewpoint used to hurt you, but that doesn't actually address the truth of the matter.
Nope-- though shared personal experience does. The prejudice merely explains why it comes up. The shared personal experience explains the position taken.

(Also, you'll note that gay people nowadays still oppose the 'mental defect' line. You're acting like this is some kind of reversal. In reality, the religious bigots have switched from eugenic arguments to victim-blaming arguments, and gay people have remained consistent in decrying those who have no experience or compassion making bullshit assumptions to justify them).
 
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tstorm823

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Are you human?
Yes. I am also aware that my position assumes my own fallibility. That's a good thing. Really, that's the point, anti-intellectualism is effectively anti-god complex.
You're acting like this is some kind of reversal.
It's not a reversal, since it's not moving between opposite positions, but it is a complete shift in thinking. You know it's a shift, since as soon as some data didn't help you, you handwaved it away as outdated.

People don't typically have good explanations for why they are the way that they are in any sense. Sexuality is not unique, no group can explain where all their thoughts and feelings come from, the consensus argument isn't a good argument even if it were true, a majority of a group believing something is weak evidence for its existence. But your consensus doesn't even exist, it changes over time to suit people's political needs. I don't mean to deride that, it is perfectly reasonable to be accepting of arguments which you believe stand to benefit society, but you don't find truth that way.
 

Silvanus

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It's not a reversal, since it's not moving between opposite positions, but it is a complete shift in thinking. You know it's a shift, since as soon as some data didn't help you, you handwaved it away as outdated.
There is no shift away from 'homosexuality is not mental illness' among gay people. And the 1990 study didn't support anyone's position on this question.

People don't typically have good explanations for why they are the way that they are in any sense. Sexuality is not unique, no group can explain where all their thoughts and feelings come from, the consensus argument isn't a good argument even if it were true, a majority of a group believing something is weak evidence for its existence.
And yet here you are wanting to prioritise... the speculation of those without any experience at all. And that's more valuable, is it?

You'll notice that personal experience is not all that has been offered. I've also provided researchers finding biological indicators, from genetic markers to hormonal conditions of the womb.

But your consensus doesn't even exist, it changes over time to suit people's political needs. I don't mean to deride that, it is perfectly reasonable to be accepting of arguments which you believe stand to benefit society, but you don't find truth that way.
Yes, understanding of human development has improved drastically since the 1970s.

As far as I can see, the truly notable shift in position over time that we can see here is the shift from 'mental illness' to 'choice' among those who try to restrict and oppress gay people. Which have both been consistently opposed by those with any actual experience.
 
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Hades

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Desantis hate boner for Disney is really foolish. What exactly did Disney do to deserve Desantis trying to use all his power of the state to crush them?

Disney only denounced the Don't Say Gay bill very half heartedly and only after both their costumers and employees more or less demanded it off them. All Disney did was play the ''game'' where corporations softly denounces the far right for pr points while otherwise trying very hard to ensure the status quo doesn't move an inch. Any competent politician would have realized this rather than see it as a personal slight against him.
 

XsjadoBlayde

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Desantis hate boner for Disney is really foolish. What exactly did Disney do to deserve Desantis trying to use all his power of the state to crush them?

Disney only denounced the Don't Say Gay bill very half heartedly and only after both their costumers and employees more or less demanded it off them. All Disney did was play the ''game'' where corporations softly denounces the far right for pr points while otherwise trying very hard to ensure the status quo doesn't move an inch. Any competent politician would have realized this rather than see it as a personal slight against him.
You may not be aware of the modern conspiracy theories he's directly, consciously appealing to, he's aiming to impress the believers of the worst of them. And dangerously overcompensating because he's somewhat aware he'll never gain the support trump had, but refuses to change tactic of imitating and breathlessly defending trump, even after trump started attacking him. He seems to not have any other ideas other than doubling down on the dangerous overcompensation to impress that conspiratorial voter base. Am hoping this Disney mess will remove his influence for good, cause his desperation is extremely concerning currently.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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What exactly did Disney do to deserve Desantis trying to use all his power of the state to crush them?
Disney did nothing to "deserve" it; DeSantis just saw an opportunity to polish his "anti-woke" bona fides for his Presidential run so that he can look "more Trump than Trump". Consequences to anyone other than himself never entered his mind.
 

Kwak

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Disney did nothing to "deserve" it; DeSantis just saw an opportunity to polish his "anti-woke" bona fides for his Presidential run so that he can look "more Trump than Trump". Consequences to anyone other than himself never entered his mind.
Does Trump himself make statements and judgements against lgbt culture much though? The current rabid hysteria over it seems to come from trumpists and conservatives but not him directly, though it could be just because his voice has been less prominent lately, or is drowned out by the sheer amount of obsession coming from the rest of them.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Does Trump himself make statements and judgements against lgbt culture much though? The current rabid hysteria over it seems to come from trumpists and conservatives but not him directly, though it could be just because his voice has been less prominent lately, or is drowned out by the sheer amount of obsession coming from the rest of them.
In all fairness: No, Trump hasn't really been that kind of "culture warrior", which is apparently the vacuum DeSantis wants to fill.
 

Ag3ma

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You may not be aware of the modern conspiracy theories he's directly, consciously appealing to, he's aiming to impress the believers of the worst of them. And dangerously overcompensating because he's somewhat aware he'll never gain the support trump had, but refuses to change tactic of imitating and breathlessly defending trump, even after trump started attacking him. He seems to not have any other ideas other than doubling down on the dangerous overcompensation to impress that conspiratorial voter base. Am hoping this Disney mess will remove his influence for good, cause his desperation is extremely concerning currently.
De Santis is, as Trump would put it, a loser. The last year or two have made his limitations glaringly obvious.

His sole chance is that one of the legal cases mounting up against Trump is so serious that the Republican Party refuses to countenance Trump as an official candidate. And even then, I'm not sure he'd beat the competition.
 
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Trunkage

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In other news, DeSantis is currently in phase two of "fuck around and find out" with his pursuit of Disney.

I would not that the billion dollars is just for the construction, not the price of everything else associated so it might reach two

Any 'go woke, go broke' or something like that
 

Trunkage

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Desantis hate boner for Disney is really foolish. What exactly did Disney do to deserve Desantis trying to use all his power of the state to crush them?

Disney only denounced the Don't Say Gay bill very half heartedly and only after both their costumers and employees more or less demanded it off them. All Disney did was play the ''game'' where corporations softly denounces the far right for pr points while otherwise trying very hard to ensure the status quo doesn't move an inch. Any competent politician would have realized this rather than see it as a personal slight against him.
When you are talking about minorities, you dont just attack minorities. You have to attack anyone who might be able to speak for them

Disney has done a lot of fucked up things over the years. So they deserve punishment.... just not for this. DeSantis knows this and knows that the Left is going to give a half weak defence of Disney to this clear prejudice and divisive attacks from Desantis. So they were seen as weak

Desantis is using fascist tactics. You need to scare everyone into compliance. You pick an easy target that's meant to roll over at the slightest whiff of controversy. Then everyone knows what happens if you support LBGT issues. This is normal practice.

It's not about Disney. It's about the message
 

XsjadoBlayde

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De Santis is, as Trump would put it, a loser. The last year or two have made his limitations glaringly obvious.

His sole chance is that one of the legal cases mounting up against Trump is so serious that the Republican Party refuses to countenance Trump as an official candidate. And even then, I'm not sure he'd beat the competition.
Thing is, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, Desantis is the favourite for the billionaire donor class by some distance, likely because he's on their wavelength and less of a wild card than trump, being more efficient at enacting the changes they desire. Hardly anyone appears to like Ron in the GOP either, with members sometimes amusingly backing Trump right after meeting Ron. He's a hollow vassal for the psychotically rich.




As Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis intensifies his preparation for a White House bid, several of the wealthiest and most prolific Republican donors are already giving him a major financial boost.

Trader and investor Jeffrey Yass donated $2.5 million to DeSantis’ state political committee on February 7, according to online records maintained by the organization, Friends of Ron DeSantis. And Jude and Christopher Reyes, the billionaire brothers behind one of the country’s largest beer and food distributors, each gave DeSantis’ committee $1 million last week as well.

The seven-figure checks arrived ahead of what has amounted to a late-February soft launch of DeSantis’ highly anticipated run for president. On Monday, DeSantis held campaign-style rallies with police officers in New York, Philadelphia and Chicago, where he regaled the crowds with stories of the culture wars. Ahead of a potential GOP primary clash with Donald Trump, DeSantis will next host a three-day retreat for donors this weekend in Trump’s neighborhood. And his memoir, “The Courage to Be Free,” drops next Tuesday, with plans for a national book tour and events scheduled with GOP activists in Texas, California and Alabama.


This cascade of activity is the clearest sign yet that DeSantis intends to jump into the Republican primary, though he’s in no rush to do so. Even as Trump channels his energy at derailing DeSantis, the Florida governor is sticking to plans to wait on a formal announcement until May or June, after state lawmakers hold their annual legislative session, according to sources close to the governor. DeSantis seemed to confirm the timeline during a Monday appearance on Fox & Friends.

“We’re going to sell some books. We’re going to spread the message of Florida. And then on March 8, I have our legislative session that’s kicking off,” DeSantis said. “As we get beyond that, then we decide from there.”

“Wouldn’t you guys like to have that announcement on ‘Fox & Friends’?” he later teased.


The continued financial support from wealthy donors – achieved without actually declaring himself a candidate – explains, in part, why DeSantis is content to remain on the sidelines. In addition to the $4.5 million from Yass and the Reyes brothers, DeSantis’ political committee has more than $71 million left over from last year’s reelection effort, when he shattered fundraising records en route to a lopsided 19-point victory in the Sunshine State. CNN reached out to Yass and the Reyes brothers through their respective businesses to inquire about their donations to DeSantis’ political committee, but they did not respond.

DeSantis’ cash on hand would put him on nearly equal footing with Trump, who had more than $81 million stockpiled across five committees when campaign finance figures were last reported in January, and far ahead of any other competitor trying to usurp the former president for the party’s 2024 GOP nomination. It remains to be seen how DeSantis’ political operation will move his reserve cash, which is parked in a state political committee, into a federal super PAC that could support his presidential campaign without violating campaign finance laws, however; CNN previously reported that is ultimately the goal. A source close to DeSantis’ political team confirmed a recent report from Puck that Phil Cox, a veteran GOP operative and a top adviser to DeSantis’ 2020 campaign, is in the process of recruiting a team to helm that effort. Cox previously ran the super PAC tied to former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie’s 2016 presidential campaign.

A spokesman for DeSantis’ political operation declined to comment on plans for the money left over from the 2022 election. Friends of Ron DeSantis received about $670,000 in contributions in December and January, according to state records.

The early support from the upper echelon of GOP mega donors – many of whom have been shopping for an alternative to Trump – could also make it difficult for other would-be contenders to launch a viable bid for the nomination.

Yass, the world’s 42nd richest person with an estimated wealth of $30 billion according to Forbes, made his presence felt during the midterms, donating more than $55 million to Republican causes in federal campaigns. That doesn’t include the millions Yass spent in his home state of Pennsylvania ahead of the primary for governor there last year, trying to boost Bill McSwain over the far-right election denier Doug Mastriano. Mastriano ultimately won the GOP nomination with Trump’s support but lost the general election to Democrat Josh Shapiro.

The only donors to spend more money than Yass during the last cycle – billionaire hedge fund manager Kenneth Griffin and Wisconsin shipping magnates Elizabeth and Richard Uihlein – have also supported DeSantis in the past. The Uihleins donated just under $2 million to the Republican’s two gubernatorial campaigns. Griffin, who has vocally called for the GOP to move on from Trump, has twice cut DeSantis’ committee checks for $5 million and has already expressed interest in supporting him in the presidential primary.

En route to raising $213 million for his reelection, the most ever by a non-self-funded gubernatorial candidate, DeSantis collected nearly 300 donations of six figures or higher.

DeSantis-Trump donor duel in Palm Beach
Many of his top donors will be in Palm Beach, Florida, this weekend, where DeSantis has assembled about 150 donors for an exclusive retreat on the same barrier island that Trump calls home.

The summit will include policy and strategy sessions during the day and dinner, cocktails and cigars in the evening. It’s an opportunity for the GOP money class to see another side of DeSantis, who has earned a reputation for shunning donors at receptions and ducking out of events with guests still waiting for a photo.

“That’s the undertone of the whole thing,” said a Republican consultant familiar with the retreat’s planning. “He’s showing his people that he appreciates them and they’re in the tent and their voices are meaningful and impactful. I think it’s about strengthening those relationships and showing they care.”

DeSantis’ public maneuvering has increasingly drawn the ire of Trump, whose super PAC, MAGA, Inc, is hosting its first major fundraiser at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort in Palm Beach on Thursday. In his latest criticism of his one-time ally, Trump said Florida “was doing great long before” DeSantis became governor, while praising the leadership of former governors Rick Scott and Charlie Crist. Beyond his public attacks, Trump has privately expressed annoyance to allies about DeSantis’ 2024 ambitions as recently as this weekend, a source told CNN.

Trump’s remarks come on the heels of the warm reception DeSantis received from law enforcement during his three-stop tour through Democratic turf on Monday. DeSantis was ostensibly on the road to make a sales pitch for police to move to Florida and tout his tough-on-crime policies, but it was clear that those in the crowds were already seizing up the Florida governor as a possible alternative to Trump.

At DeSantis’ stop in Elmhurst, Illinois, Joe McGraw, an Illinois circuit court judge, said DeSantis was “electric” and that it was “pretty much unanimous” among attendees that DeSantis should seek the GOP presidential nomination.

Bob Kopp, a 71-year-old pastor and police chaplain, said he liked Trump’s record, voted for him twice and would vote for him again – but also called the former president “an insufferable narcissist.”

“It was so nice to hear someone reflect American values in a hopeful, positive – it wasn’t really demeaning of anybody,” he said of DeSantis. “He spoke of positive principles and values, and didn’t get into personalities and demeaning.”

DeSantis’ arrival in New York City put the governor in the heart of Trump’s turf in his former home – Staten Island, the only of the five New York boroughs that Trump won in 2020. DeSantis spoke to police officers for 20 minutes and stopped for bagels, where he posed for photos and reportedly shrugged off questions about his political ambitions.

“People can see with their own eyes that things are going well in Florida, so I’m not surprised that his message is resonating. If and when he decides to get in he’ll have to convince people that his vision is best for America,” said New York City councilman Joe Borelli, who met with DeSantis during the visit. “I think it’s going to be a tough choice for Republicans. We’re glad he came, and maybe dipped his foot in the water here, but we certainly welcome a visit from the former president and anyone else.”
 

Ag3ma

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Thing is, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, Desantis is the favourite for the billionaire donor class by some distance, likely because he's on their wavelength and less of a wild card than trump, being more efficient at enacting the changes they desire. Hardly anyone appears to like Ron in the GOP either, with members sometimes amusingly backing Trump right after meeting Ron. He's a hollow vassal for the psychotically rich.
Yes on all counts.

Nobody like De Santis. Whatever Trump's faults, he knows how to meet the right people, curry favour, press hands, make deals, and enthuse a crowd. De Santis has none of these skills - or at least, not at a level to make it past Trump.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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The key word was "used to".

GOP social policies is currently "hunting the homeless for sport". But go ahead and post your standard anti-vax screed. Or is this you pro-life one? Maybe your anti-gender affirming care one?

Speaking of, gender affirming care is basically illegal in Florida now, regardless of age:

And they're sending investigators out to interrogate 10 year olds because their teacher showed them Disney kid's movie after they got permission slips

Lotta things happening that you were certain wouldn't
DNC social policies are causing homelessness...

From now on stop linking me to Twitter posts and just link and cite parts of the actual bill that do what you claim. Where does that law say adults can't receive gender affirming care?

You're gonna have some cases that will test the law and figure out it's limits. Where are you when actual teachers have actually gotten fired for simply teaching Chinese because they said a Chinese word that sounds likes some other word and students get "offended"?

The video... that doesn't say that trans athletes have an unfair advantage over women athletes

That's your stance?

Um... That's great. Congrats
It literally does.

"It's clear from the data that trans women keep an advantage over cis women even after several years of hormonal therapy."

There's so much more to the differences between sexes that aren't reversible (than even in the video mentions) and aren't just based on hormones; just how men and women arms and shoulders develop is vastly different so how each sex throws a ball is very different. It's pretty ridiculous you conflate people that against such things (which is the vast majority of the population, and this is, you know, a democracy) as bigots even when the science agrees.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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DNC social policies are causing homelessness...
Name the DNC backed law that makes people homeless. Where in the law does it say is makes people homeless?
From now on stop linking me to Twitter posts and just link and cite parts of the actual bill that do what you claim. Where does that law say adults can't receive gender affirming care?
It's literally in the thread. I love how you're smarter than every single lawyer in Florida though. You're wasting your prestigious talents being a mere software engineer
You're gonna have some cases that will test the law and figure out it's limits. Where are you when actual teachers have actually gotten fired for simply teaching Chinese because they said a Chinese word that sounds likes some other word and students get "offended"?
That thing that distinctly didn't fucking happen?

Meanwhile you're absolutely and explicitly fine with using teachers lives and careers to "test the law and figure out it's limits", so I don't know what you're complaining about. Maybe stop being a bigger hypocrite than usual