If DeSantis wins

Phoenixmgs

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Right, except (as has been pointed out) in order to buy you need an enormous amount of up-front money.

My rent is more than mortgage repayments in the same area. But I cannot get a mortgage, because I cannot stump up hundreds of thousands at once, which the market has determined is necessary to prove I can afford mortgage repayments. Even though I'm already paying more per month than those payments would be.
And I just explained in another thread how young people would have easily $80k more if college wasn't bullshit. Guess what that $80k would be used for then? A down payment on a house/condo/townhouse.

Also, can you get a down payment on a place that's not in London?
 

Silvanus

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And I just explained in another thread how young people would have easily $80k more if college wasn't bullshit. Guess what that $80k would be used for then? A down payment on a house/condo/townhouse.

Also, can you get a down payment on a place that's not in London?
My education wasn't bullshit, though. And if I'd forgone it, I absolutely would not have 80k more.

And I've just spent a dozen posts explaining why moving out of London will not work for me.

Stop trying to force everyone into a one-size-fits-all solution. You just acknowledged that your approach only really applies in the US anyway.
 

Phoenixmgs

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My education wasn't bullshit, though. And if I'd forgone it, I absolutely would not have 80k more.

And I've just spent a dozen posts explaining why moving out of London will not work for me.

Stop trying to force everyone into a one-size-fits-all solution. You just acknowledged that your approach only really applies in the US anyway.
You could've learned what you needed to in less time, that's the bullshit of college, not that you don't learn anything but it's the most inefficient way to learn something. Thus, less time in college means less money spent there, then an extra year or 2 of working vs staying in college longer than needed = quite a bit more money = down payment money.

I geniunely don't know the prices of stuff in England/London, thus I'm asking. Would you be able to have enough money for a down payment for a place not in London? You said you can't afford a place in London and to me, I would not find that situation to be acceptable. Not trying to fit everyone into a single box but it seems like if what you said about London is true, then most people already can't fit into that box to begin with so find a different box, whether a different major city in England (like say Houston vs San Francisco) or then not a major city are the only boxes left.
 
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Silvanus

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You could've learned what you needed to in less time, that's the bullshit of college, not that you don't learn anything but it's the most inefficient way to learn something.
Forgive me for saying so, but you know jack shit about my HE experience, and just because you didn't get anything out of it doesn't mean you can extrapolate that experience to everyone.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Forgive me for saying so, but you know jack shit about my HE experience, and just because you didn't get anything out of it doesn't mean you can extrapolate that experience to everyone.
Well, I know your HE experience didn't result in you being able to get a good enough job to afford a place to live in the city you want to live in. You're acting like I have some shocking fringe take on HE when people have been saying that for years (really decades) and South Park just pointed out how useless college is as well.
 

Silvanus

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Well, I know your HE experience didn't result in you being able to get a good enough job to afford a place to live in the city you want to live in.
Dude, I work in the charity sector by choice, and have for ~ten years. An equivalent role in the private sector is paid a lot more. Believe it or not, money is not the sole motivator for everyone.

And I can afford a place. To rent. You were the one insisting that buying is cheaper than renting-- so, uhrm, by your own logic, I'm able to afford the more expensive of the two. Oops.

You're acting like I have some shocking fringe take on HE when people have been saying that for years (really decades) and South Park just pointed out how useless college is as well.
I'm not saying it's shocking or fringe, just that it's narrow and inapplicable to a lot of people.

You had a shoddy experience and seemingly cannot comprehend that other peoples' experiences differ.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Dude, I work in the charity sector by choice, and have for ~ten years. An equivalent role in the private sector is paid a lot more. Believe it or not, money is not the sole motivator for everyone.

And I can afford a place. To rent. You were the one insisting that buying is cheaper than renting-- so, uhrm, by your own logic, I'm able to afford the more expensive of the two. Oops.



I'm not saying it's shocking or fringe, just that it's narrow and inapplicable to a lot of people.

You had a shoddy experience and seemingly cannot comprehend that other peoples' experiences differ.
I've said I make quite a bit less than I can because I value other things than money. So, how is money my sole motivator?
I could make a lot more if I wanted to but my current job is really chill, I don't have to care about being right on time and worrying about being 5mins late, I can take lunch/breaks whenever I want, I can take long lunches (currently on a 2 hour lunch bread right now), the benefits are good (I pay nothing for health insurance out of my pocket, I guess it kinda does since lower pay though), I can basically do what I want when I want as long as I get my shit down. If I want/need days off, I get them without issue. I could easily be making at least 10k more a year if I wanted to doing the same work but I value other things far more than money.
The problem with renting is that you get nothing back when you leave, it's a massive money sinkhole. You should only ever rent short-term when renting is the same (or more expensive) than buying.

From working, I can tell you new hires don't know much coming out of college. It's not just my personal college experience. As South Park pointed out, you can easily see it all around you. You can tell by college graduates b!tching about how disillusioned they are about they whole system. It's like you just try to gaslight people into thinking what is super obvious and apparent all around them is not happening.

 

Silvanus

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I've said I make quite a bit less than I can because I value other things than money. So, how is money my sole motivator?
What an extremely bizarre response. /You/ are the one who chose to act as if money was the only relevant motivator when looking for a job. /You/ made that leap, not me.

The problem with renting is that you get nothing back when you leave, it's a massive money sinkhole. You should only ever rent short-term when renting is the same (or more expensive) than buying.
And now it's already been pointed out to you that it's not possible for lots of renters to buy, because they don't have the enormous up-front capital required.
 

Satinavian

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And now it's already been pointed out to you that it's not possible for lots of renters to buy, because they don't have the enormous up-front capital required.
Oh, there are other reasons not to buy as well. For example many people don't know they actually can keep a job in the same area years to come. Or don't have their family situation settled.

Buying instead of renting might be cheaper on the long run, but in many countries you have to pay full sale tax on any such transaction and a couple of other one-time expenses based on the total volume, making a good chunk of the value of a home vanish each time it changes owners.
 

Phoenixmgs

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What an extremely bizarre response. /You/ are the one who chose to act as if money was the only relevant motivator when looking for a job. /You/ made that leap, not me.



And now it's already been pointed out to you that it's not possible for lots of renters to buy, because they don't have the enormous up-front capital required.
I never said that. I said essentially that a basic requirement of a job should net you the financial ability to own a place to live in the city you live in. I care about being able to afford what I need and being able to fulfill a certain amount of wants as well. I make enough to fulfill that stuff for me. The reason for me to want to earn more money is to be able to retire earlier, I couldn't care less about earning more money for a more luxurious lifestyle.

Then, that job isn't netting you enough money for what I feel should be a basic need. Not only are you paying more to rent each month than you should, that money is totally going down the toilet in essence when it shouldn't be, which means you'll need even more money per month when you retire, which means you'll have to work longer than you should have to. Time is the most important resource and not being able to own a place is, in essence, stealing your time as well as your money.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Oh, there are other reasons not to buy as well. For example many people don't know they actually can keep a job in the same area years to come. Or don't have their family situation settled.

Buying instead of renting might be cheaper on the long run, but in many countries you have to pay full sale tax on any such transaction and a couple of other one-time expenses based on the total volume, making a good chunk of the value of a home vanish each time it changes owners.
That's why you save up money. I can lose my job and I can pay all my bills for at least a year if I were unemployed that long.

If renting is literally more money per month than a mortgage payment (which it is in may places), there's no way renting is cheaper. Renting has to be cheaper to some degree to make it cheaper in the long run.
 

Satinavian

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If renting is literally more money per month than a mortgage payment (which it is in may places), there's no way renting is cheaper. Renting has to be cheaper to some degree to make it cheaper in the long run.
Well, thst is another topic.

Where i live, house prices have risen far more than rent. Mostly because cheap money glut and institutional investors having no better idea than buying houses left and right. Now it seems that some of that turned out to be a bad investment considering the comparatively low rent level but the house still did not fall again. People talk a lot about a bbble, but it hasn't burst yet.
 
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Silvanus

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I never said that. I said essentially that a basic requirement of a job should net you the financial ability to own a place to live in the city you live in. I care about being able to afford what I need and being able to fulfill a certain amount of wants as well. I make enough to fulfill that stuff for me. The reason for me to want to earn more money is to be able to retire earlier, I couldn't care less about earning more money for a more luxurious lifestyle.
You made the assumption that my HE was inadequate to get a good enough job to afford a place to live. Which-- aside from being insulting and presumptuous shite-- relies on the idea that just because I can't cough up hundreds of grand for a deposit, therefore I can't afford to live here.

But I can. Because I live here right now.

Then, that job isn't netting you enough money for what I feel should be a basic need.
OK. But I care more about the nature of my work than I do about the pay, which is why I haven't moved to the private sector. I have different priorities to you.

Not only are you paying more to rent each month than you should, that money is totally going down the toilet in essence when it shouldn't be, which means you'll need even more money per month when you retire, which means you'll have to work longer than you should have to. Time is the most important resource and not being able to own a place is, in essence, stealing your time as well as your money.
Do you think you're informing me of something I don't already know, if you tell me I'm underpaid and rent is too high? Do you think these are novel concepts?

Fact is, your solutions-- to get a job I don't want, in order to start saving to make a several-hundred-thousand deposit, or move out of the city I want to live in-- aren't attractive to me.
 

Phoenixmgs

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You made the assumption that my HE was inadequate to get a good enough job to afford a place to live. Which-- aside from being insulting and presumptuous shite-- relies on the idea that just because I can't cough up hundreds of grand for a deposit, therefore I can't afford to live here.

But I can. Because I live here right now.



OK. But I care more about the nature of my work than I do about the pay, which is why I haven't moved to the private sector. I have different priorities to you.



Do you think you're informing me of something I don't already know, if you tell me I'm underpaid and rent is too high? Do you think these are novel concepts?

Fact is, your solutions-- to get a job I don't want, in order to start saving to make a several-hundred-thousand deposit, or move out of the city I want to live in-- aren't attractive to me.
I only care, to a degree, about money because money is directly tied to time. What's the point of going to college to get a degree that costs you the money that you could have literally used for a deposit on a place to live?

I didn't say to get a job you don't want. I said the "box" you're currently in I don't find provides the bare minimum standard so find a different box basically. Whether that's a different job or a the same job in a different place or what have you. Renting should only be a temporary solution and not be the end solution. Because that will cost you so much time down the road in your life that you should've had for yourself.
 

hanselthecaretaker2

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Oh, there are other reasons not to buy as well. For example many people don't know they actually can keep a job in the same area years to come. Or don't have their family situation settled.

Buying instead of renting might be cheaper on the long run, but in many countries you have to pay full sale tax on any such transaction and a couple of other one-time expenses based on the total volume, making a good chunk of the value of a home vanish each time it changes owners.
Another thing to consider is length of the mortgage. It’s arguable that even a twenty year mortgage can be a bad investment depending on location and timing. By the time it matures one could wind up paying for their house twice depending on the interest rate. Add to that maintenance and upkeep, replacing major appliances and heating/cooling unit at least once, remodeling to maintain home value, time invested in doing other repairs yourself, property taxes typically go up meaning escrow can wind up creeping monthly payments up yearly, etc. If you’re lucky like the home’s value might double over time, but as mentioned above, odds are even breaking even is a best case when all is said and done.

That said, the interest rape can be mitigated somewhat by making extra payments, but that’s not always an option for people either.
 

Silvanus

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I only care, to a degree, about money because money is directly tied to time. What's the point of going to college to get a degree that costs you the money that you could have literally used for a deposit on a place to live?
"What's the point"? The point is the education, the qualification, and the experience. Even this question presupposes that the value of a degree should solely be measured in money.

I didn't say to get a job you don't want. I said the "box" you're currently in I don't find provides the bare minimum standard so find a different box basically. Whether that's a different job or a the same job in a different place or what have you. Renting should only be a temporary solution and not be the end solution. Because that will cost you so much time down the road in your life that you should've had for yourself.
The "different boxes" you've suggested are solutions that I would find highly disagreeable, because I don't have the same priorities as you.

If your idea of "bare minimum standard" is one that excludes the majority of workers in the city, then you're not being very realistic with that term.
 

Phoenixmgs

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If you’re lucky like the home’s value might double over time, but as mentioned above, odds are even breaking even is a best case when all is said and done.
Breaking even is like a million times better than not having anything when trying to find a new place. If you broke even, you can obviously sell your current place and have tons of money for a down payment then. If you just rented, you have nothing.

"What's the point"? The point is the education, the qualification, and the experience. Even this question presupposes that the value of a degree should solely be measured in money.



The "different boxes" you've suggested are solutions that I would find highly disagreeable, because I don't have the same priorities as you.

If your idea of "bare minimum standard" is one that excludes the majority of workers in the city, then you're not being very realistic with that term.
You can learn that stuff on your own more efficiently and far more cheaper than college. You get a degree for the piece of paper, not the knowledge.

Then why ya'll living in some city then?
 

Silvanus

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You can learn that stuff on your own more efficiently and far more cheaper than college. You get a degree for the piece of paper, not the knowledge.
Again: just because you didn't gain anything from your HE experience doesn't mean everyone else didn't. I gained a lot from some damn good lecturers and tutors putting time and resources in. I absolutely could not replicate that sitting on my own and reading a book.

Then why ya'll living in some city then?
I've already given you my reasons at least twice. Why endlessly ask the same questions to which you've already been given answers?
 

Phoenixmgs

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Again: just because you didn't gain anything from your HE experience doesn't mean everyone else didn't. I gained a lot from some damn good lecturers and tutors putting time and resources in. I absolutely could not replicate that sitting on my own and reading a book.



I've already given you my reasons at least twice. Why endlessly ask the same questions to which you've already been given answers?
I'm not saying I didn't gain anything, I said for the time and money put in, it wasn't worth it, not that nothing was gained.

You told me your answer. The last question was referring to that general group (majority of workers). If most of Group_X can't get some basic need from this "box", then why are you ALL in this box then? That doesn't make sense to me.
 

Silvanus

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You told me your answer. The last question was referring to that general group (majority of workers). If most of Group_X can't get some basic need from this "box", then why are you ALL in this box then? That doesn't make sense to me.
Well for starters, lots of people don't consider home ownership a "basic need", considering its perfectly possible to live a comfortable and fulfilling life without it.

Secondly, the reasons are obvious: they want the benefits of living in the city. Better job prospects, the culture, the connectedness.