If someone is a post-op transsexual, are they obligated to tell the person they are pursuing/dating?

[Lady Larunai]

Snip

Don't be an idiot. There's no physically possible way that cat genes could wind up in a human's DNA unless you're some kind of mad scientist tampering with the laws of reality. Humans cannot be naturally born with cat brains.

Contrary to what you may believe, there is actually scientific research on the subject which, while not 100% conclusive does show that transsexuals share similar brains to gender they claim to be. (Which is something that homosexuals do not share in common, no matter how much people may like to throw trans and homosexuality into the same camp and love to tell trans people to just shut up and be gay.)

As it is, it's also extremely possible that children can get wrong doses of hormones while in the womb and develop a mismatched brain for what their chromosomes entailed. Birth defects happen all the time, including other bizarre outcomes such as intersex and this seems to be the most likely reason at the moment.

I'm not going to stop you from disagreeing, but if you're going to go around judging other people come up with a better reason than that that illogically asinine and outdated argument.

You totally missed what my analogy was about. Plus I never said anything about genes or DNA, I just mentioned grafting on pieces and changing parts.

I couldn't care less about what's going on up in people's heads. If a person is born, physically, a boy, I don't care what that person does to himself later, I will always consider that person male.

I was never talking about DNA and such, only the original and then the fake, surgical appearance.

Everyone is born physically female to begin with.. technically you started out a girl

 

[Lady Larunai]

Snip

Don't be an idiot. There's no physically possible way that cat genes could wind up in a human's DNA unless you're some kind of mad scientist tampering with the laws of reality. Humans cannot be naturally born with cat brains.

Contrary to what you may believe, there is actually scientific research on the subject which, while not 100% conclusive does show that transsexuals share similar brains to gender they claim to be. (Which is something that homosexuals do not share in common, no matter how much people may like to throw trans and homosexuality into the same camp and love to tell trans people to just shut up and be gay.)

As it is, it's also extremely possible that children can get wrong doses of hormones while in the womb and develop a mismatched brain for what their chromosomes entailed. Birth defects happen all the time, including other bizarre outcomes such as intersex and this seems to be the most likely reason at the moment.

I'm not going to stop you from disagreeing, but if you're going to go around judging other people come up with a better reason than that that illogically asinine and outdated argument.

You totally missed what my analogy was about. Plus I never said anything about genes or DNA, I just mentioned grafting on pieces and changing parts.

I couldn't care less about what's going on up in people's heads. If a person is born, physically, a boy, I don't care what that person does to himself later, I will always consider that person male.

I was never talking about DNA and such, only the original and then the fake, surgical appearance.

Everyone is born physically female to begin with.. technically you started out a girl

BORN physically female? I think you got that somewhat wrong.

nope, everyone in conceived female, its a chemical mutation process that makes you male by the time you come out.. (born/conceived... this isn't the debate for that issue)

 

[Lady Larunai]

Snip

Don't be an idiot. There's no physically possible way that cat genes could wind up in a human's DNA unless you're some kind of mad scientist tampering with the laws of reality. Humans cannot be naturally born with cat brains.

Contrary to what you may believe, there is actually scientific research on the subject which, while not 100% conclusive does show that transsexuals share similar brains to gender they claim to be. (Which is something that homosexuals do not share in common, no matter how much people may like to throw trans and homosexuality into the same camp and love to tell trans people to just shut up and be gay.)

As it is, it's also extremely possible that children can get wrong doses of hormones while in the womb and develop a mismatched brain for what their chromosomes entailed. Birth defects happen all the time, including other bizarre outcomes such as intersex and this seems to be the most likely reason at the moment.

I'm not going to stop you from disagreeing, but if you're going to go around judging other people come up with a better reason than that that illogically asinine and outdated argument.

You totally missed what my analogy was about. Plus I never said anything about genes or DNA, I just mentioned grafting on pieces and changing parts.

I couldn't care less about what's going on up in people's heads. If a person is born, physically, a boy, I don't care what that person does to himself later, I will always consider that person male.

I was never talking about DNA and such, only the original and then the fake, surgical appearance.

Everyone is born physically female to begin with.. technically you started out a girl

BORN physically female? I think you got that somewhat wrong.

nope, everyone in conceived female, its a chemical mutation process that makes you male by the time you come out..

Yes. It happens before you are born. Ergo you are not born physically female -__-

close enough.. i knew what i meant

 

[DigitalSushi]

WTF is with the Escapists obsession with transgender/transsexuals, its just unnatural and who cares? And yes they must tell them immediately.

We have a few transgenders, transexuals here and a few people with gender identity disorder, we don't have an obsession with them but its good to talk about these issues with each other like adults. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad, bad to you, not to others.

About it being unnatural?, wearing clothes, travelling in a metal structure which burns fossil fuels such as car's, trains and planes and microwaves are also unnatural. Caesarean section's are unnatural.

Don't get me started on non dairy cheese products.

Just gotta say, im reading through this thread, facepalming at so many emotional charged and logically lacking argument (from both sides, but there are a few good ones), and I almost stood up and applauded at this.

Why thank you! I aim to please.

 

[BringBackBuck]

WTF is with the Escapists obsession with transgender/transsexuals, its just unnatural and who cares? And yes they must tell them immediately.

We have a few transgenders, transexuals here and a few people with gender identity disorder, we don't have an obsession with them but its good to talk about these issues with each other like adults. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad, bad to you, not to others.

About it being unnatural?, wearing clothes, travelling in a metal structure which burns fossil fuels such as car's, trains and planes and microwaves are also unnatural. Caesarean section's are unnatural.

Don't get me started on non dairy cheese products.

Just gotta say, im reading through this thread, facepalming at so many emotional charged and logically lacking argument (from both sides, but there are a few good ones), and I almost stood up and applauded at this.

and I smh at the comment.

smh?

slapped more hobbits? saw mandy's horse? shat my hat? Ha "shat my hat" that sounds like an awesome Dr Seuss book.

 

[TimeLord]

WTF is with the Escapists obsession with transgender/transsexuals, its just unnatural and who cares? And yes they must tell them immediately.

We have a few transgenders, transexuals here and a few people with gender identity disorder, we don't have an obsession with them but its good to talk about these issues with each other like adults. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad, bad to you, not to others.

About it being unnatural?, wearing clothes, travelling in a metal structure which burns fossil fuels such as car's, trains and planes and microwaves are also unnatural. Caesarean section's are unnatural.

Reminds me of a joke comedian Russel Howard made;


"Can you stop doing that it's not natural!"

"You're flying"

Don't get me started on non dairy cheese products.

I know right?!

 

[Innegativeion]

I don't see it that way.

You are saying that if a person claims to be something, they are something.

What if surgeons grafted large amounts of cat fur over my body, and gave me whiskers on my face and attached a tail to my butt?

This is a fallacious notion, as assuming a surgeon does an ideal job (which will become more and more the case as cosmetic surgery develops, naturally), then there is literally no difference between a natural and crafted vagina.

All flesh is transitive, that is, we're all made of the same stuff. The only thing that defines any difference is how it is arranged. Vaginas are of the same substance as penises, cat fur is not of the same substance as the bare skin you are born with. NOTHING is added in a gender reassignment, the "new" organ is all the patient's.

Maybe if your genes were modified in such a way to make you grow your own tail, fur, pointy ears, whiskers, and paws, I might consider you a cat, but now we're just talking sci-fi speculations.

Your previous argument to my bread analogy is also rather misinformed, as hormone therapy (required for SRS), serves to either undo or completely prevent development of the patient's genetic gender. So it'd be more like the bread was somehow turned back into dough, or was never bread at all, where bread is a post-pubescent male or female.

PS: Yeah this doesn't really have TOO much to do with the topic at hand, but I find that a lot of commenters are going off on false assumptions about post-op individuals.

 

[gazumped]

If you were the black person and found out that the blind person was indeed racist, would you be sad that you didn't get to have sex with him? If it was me, I certanly wouldn't be.

Certainly, but my point was more that we shouldn't all go around paranoid that people might have a problem with aspects of us so much that we should let them all know about these aspects. Some people have already said this but if people are prejudice then it's their issue and it should be up to them to screen their partners, not up to the other person to bring these things up to people just in case someone finds it weird or wrong.

I was just thinking about the practical implications of a 'racist' blind person, considering that blind people have never seen color or have any understanding of it. In particular I'm imagining how entertaining it would be to have such a conversation.

Ha, that'd be a good point but there's a lot more to race than color, and if someone's been brought up being told by their parents "Black people are all killers and thieves!" then "black" isn't just a color, to them it's a description of evil people!

(Sorry if you'd considered this and I just killed your joke for no reason.)

 

[gazumped]

So the proper analogy going with your food reference: I mix the ingredients together to make bread, I bake it, and bread comes out.

Then after a day or two, I do something to turn that bread into a cake. Said bread use to be cake. I give that "cake" to a few people that really like cake, but hate bread. They eat the cake, and then I tell them they technically just ate bread. Now they don't speak to me for a week or never again because I deceived them and made them eat something that they hate.

It doesn't matter what the people are up in the head, if they come out as male, they are male. Then they go and have an operation and become female. That doesn't not change that fact that they use to be male.

I don't care what a person has had done to make himself look like a woman, if I find out that person use to be a man, I will forever consider that person a man. "She" had surgery, she is a fake woman.

That's really weird, reading the beginning of your post I was expecting your conclusion to be the complete opposite.

Who would be mad that you gave them cake that used to be bread? Surely it'd be far more likely that they'd go "Wow, but that was so tasty and cake-like, it may have used to be bread but it's definitely more like cake now. Good job!"

 

[peruvianskys]

I couldn't care less about what's going on up in people's heads. If a person is born, physically, a boy, I don't care what that person does to himself later, I will always consider that person male.

Why? You keep saying that, but you offer no reason why you polarize gender in such a way. Throughout the entire history of mankind, gender has been a fluid concept and transgender people have had a place in just about every culture on Earth. There is no scientific or biological basis for you claim that "maleness" or "femaleness" is a set, unchanging essence ontologically grafted to a penis or a vagina. It isn't even that way in non-human species! You're free to be as ignorant as you want, but stop asserting that somehow your incredibly reductionist, simplistic claim is based on anything but your own ignorant views of outdated gender modes.

With that said, I think I would definitely like to be told if the woman I was sleeping with was born a man, just because such a life path would have a tremendous influence on the way that she dealt with sex and relationships. Just like if I would want to know if my partner was sexually abused or born to wealthy parents or a world-class violinist, I think it's important to have any potentially influential life events out on the table so a relationship can proceed onward. But any man who would be like "EWWWW YOU USED TO BE A DUDE GROSSSS" needs to grow the fuck up.

The baker has all the ingredients to make bread and also follows all the instructions and bread is made. Someone says "hey, that bread sure looks tasty XD" and the baker goes "Bread??? this is a CAKE" and starts covering it in icing, jam and cream in an attempt to make it look like a cake then he gets annoyed at anyone who points out that it is still bread.

Except a transgender woman is not "covered with" anything; her body is biologically the equivalent of yours. You're describing a drag queen, not a legitimate transwoman. Do you think that a transgender person is someone who just puts on a lot of makeup?

Also let's stop with the gender in quotes please. It's annoying.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

But any man who would be like "EWWWW YOU USED TO BE A DUDE GROSSSS" needs to grow the fuck up.

Or you could realise that having that response isn't necessarily just somebody being too immature to deal with things and that it stems from a natural psychological reaction...

And also that putting this hypothetical man's speech in all caps doesn't make your argument any stronger. Who's to say that somebody who has that reaction wouldn't express it rationally and maturely?

The reason most people's perceptions of male and female are pretty fixed and polarised is because most of the time, that's true. Most of us don't come into contact with transexual/transgendered people very often.
You can't blame people for feeling uncomfortable around things they aren't at all used to.

 

[orangeban]

Think of it this way; someone starts making a loaf of bread, by reading a recipe. They have a dough mix set up, but someone puts in a lot of sugar and butter and some other ingredients. When the bread comes out, it's a cake. It tastes like cake, it has the consistency of cake etc. Would you call it a bread loaf, though, because the original instructions said it was so, even though said instructions are no longer adhered to?

Actually it's more like this:

The baker has all the ingredients to make bread and also follows all the instructions and bread is made. Someone says "hey, that bread sure looks tasty XD" and the baker goes "Bread??? this is a CAKE" and starts covering it in icing, jam and cream in an attempt to make it look like a cake then he gets annoyed at anyone who points out that it is still bread.

How about you think of it this way, a baker makes a delicious cake, but it looks a bit like bread. So everyone looks at it and goes, "Oh, what lovely bread" and "Gee, I'd sure like that bread". So eventually the baker goes, "Enough is enough!", and rebuilds the cake so it looks more like a cake. And most people go, "Oh, sorry, I guess it was a cake all along. What lovely cake!"

However, some people keep going to the cake and going, "Well, this cake may be a cake, and it may look like a cake, and it may, in fact, taste like a cake, and the baker may of intended it to be a cake, but at one point in it's history people thought it was bread (even though it wasn't), and to my mind that means it will always be bread." These people then demand that the baker inform them whether or not the cake they are buying was ever perceived by the majority to be bread, because if they find out that the cake they just ate (even if they enjoyed it) was once perceived to be bread, then they have been tricked by the mean, nasty baker. Because they hate bread, and just ate something that neither looks, tastes or was meant to be bread, so therefore they have eaten bread.

Alright, that analogy is a little bit weird, but, to be honest, you can't really attribute human characteristics to baked goods anyway.

 

[Psykoma]

On the one hand, I'd like to think that if I like someone enough then I'd be ok with them being a post op transsexual.

On the other hand, holy shit this girl used to have a penis. Ohgodohgodohgod D:

So. Yeah. Make of that what you will.

I think that's the basis for the hope of 'If I date them for a bit, but don't tell them right away, this could work'.

If you tell someone right away, even if that person is on the fence, they'll shut you down - almost guaranteed.

If you wait, let them get to actually know you, develop an attraction (emotional) to you, and then tell them. Suddenly they have a real question, now it's 'we have something, is this person I know and care about worth it' as opposed to 'there's nothing here yet, is this stranger worth it'.

Some will still shut a trans person down, but some will be shaken by their connection to the trans person, and will keep giving it a legitimate shot, and that's really (i think) the best a trans person in this day can hope for.

 

[Lady Larunai]

So what about Japanese sweet bread? Or cakes with strippers in them? Where do they fit into all this, someone's going to end up with some compulsion to go buy cake every time they meet a transperson.. Then someone is going to blame them for making them fat...

 

[someonehairy-ish]

On the one hand, I'd like to think that if I like someone enough then I'd be ok with them being a post op transsexual.

On the other hand, holy shit this girl used to have a penis. Ohgodohgodohgod D:

So. Yeah. Make of that what you will.

I think that's the basis for the hope of 'If I date them for a bit, but don't tell them right away, this could work'.

If you tell someone right away, even if that person is on the fence, they'll shut you down - almost guaranteed.

If you wait, let them get to actually know you, develop an attraction (emotional) to you, and then tell them. Suddenly they have a real question, now it's 'we have something, is this person I know and care about worth it' as opposed to 'there's nothing here yet, is this stranger worth it'.

Some will still shut a trans person down, but some will be shaken by their connection to the trans person, and will keep giving it a legitimate shot, and that's really (i think) the best a trans person in this day can hope for.

True. But I think that if you wait long enough for a serious emotional attachment to form, then tell someone... they're going to feel badly deceived. Some will empathise and see that there weren't a lot of other options for the transgendered person. Some might be more open and thus it won't affect their feelings too much.
But I think that most people will still have that little 'ohgodohgodohgod this is weird' feeling. Most people have dumped others for smaller issues.

It's unfortunate, and I do feel sympathetic to anyone with that gender identity disorder (or whatever it's called) but I can't really supress those negative reactions or train myself to no longer have those negative reactions.