If someone is a post-op transsexual, are they obligated to tell the person they are pursuing/dating?

Helmholtz Watson

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CrystalShadow said:
Odbarc said:
Would you keep dating a woman who was born a man?
Would you date the person if they said they were a man before you started dating?

"I'm a man. Want to have sex?"
Lol. But no transsexual would say that, because no transsexual thinks that way about themselves.

You (and those making comments like you are) are missing a crucial point in that regard.

You're asking someone to tell you they are actually a man, but they don't think they are.

So... You are in a way asking them to be 'honest' with you by telling you something that in their own opinion is a lie.

How is that supposed to work exactly?
Good point, but I think you know what is being asked(for a person who was born a man to admit that they were born a man).
 

Heinrich843

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Lots of immaturity in this thread. I sincerely hope a great deal of you aren't over the age of 18.

OT:

It's respectful to mention anything that the other party might be uncomfortable with. Even if it's just a fling- it's respectful to consider the other person a human being and consider their feelings.

ITT: Nothing out of the usual for any "dating" scene.

A great deal of people feel compelled to lie about their sexual history or items pertaining to it. This way, they can avoid being rejected due to social taboos or stigmas. The woman who has slept with 40 men claims she's only been with 3, the guy who has never had sex claims he's slept with 40. The issue of disclosure prior to sexual contact isn't really a transgender issue- but a human issue.

Yes, it's understandable. However, that doesn't make it right to lie to sexual partners. You're sharing the "mating ritual" with another human being- I think both parties have a right to be comfortable about the situation regardless of how it originated.

People lie to save face at the expense of others.

Who really cares if you feel bad due possible rejection or you feel it doesn't matter? Suck it up and be a real human being- and a real hero. You'll gain a lot of respect for transgendered people in the future, and a lot more for yourself.
 

torzath

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Sober Thal said:
If someone is living a life of deceit, then what 'should' be said doesn't factor into their minds.

Should someone live a life of deceit? No.

Be open about who you are. If you hide what/who you are, then shame on you.
I hope you realize that with the way society currently is, that isn't even safe for transfolk to do. Just being transsexual skyrockets your risk of being assaulted or killed and being extremely out to everybody you meet isn't a good idea.
 

Heinrich843

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Mortai Gravesend said:
Except for considering their feelings if they're a much discriminated against demographic that might have valid reasons to not want to share their history with everyone they meet apparently.
Not "everyone". We're talking about physical intimacy/serious relationships. We're talking about being honest and real with yourself and others. Telling another that one might plan to have sex with about any major sexual changes prior to having sex doesn't really fall under discrimination. If they choose to not have sex with with that particular person based on that information- are they discriminating against the other person? Or are they just exercising their choice to have consensual sex with whomever they wish without being deceived?

I think they should, I'm not implying it should be a law, or forced upon anyone. I'm simply implying that being honest and upfront with someone you're about to be physically intimate with is considerate.
 

Heinrich843

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Mortai Gravesend said:
Heinrich843 said:
Mortai Gravesend said:
Except for considering their feelings if they're a much discriminated against demographic that might have valid reasons to not want to share their history with everyone they meet apparently.
Not "everyone". We're talking about physical intimacy/serious relationships. We're talking about being honest and real with yourself and others. Telling another that one might plan to have sex with about any major sexual changes prior to having sex doesn't really fall under discrimination. If they choose to not have sex with with that particular person based on that information- are they discriminating against the other person? Or are they just exercising their choice to have consensual sex with whomever they wish without being deceived?

I think they should, I'm not implying it should be a law, or forced upon anyone. I'm simply implying that being honest and upfront with someone you're about to be physically intimate with is considerate.
Don't say shit about them being honest. Not spilling the details to everyone isn't dishonest. Not telling people something that you don't go around telling most people is not dishonest.

And I'm talking about the discrimination they face elsewhere. It is a reason to keep it secret and not telling someone in a random fling makes sense given that. Or even someone until possibly later in the relationship.

Also, no deception involved.

What's really ridiculous is you talk about considering how the other person would feel, but not once do you address the reasons that a transsexual would feel uncomfortable telling someone. It makes the whole idea laughable, you're only interested in one side's feelings on the matter.
There are many logical jumps/fallacies here, and I feel as you're getting off the issue. Good day. You seem quite attached to the issue. Best of luck to you in your future endeavors.
 

Daemonate

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Certainly not. If the person they're dating is that stupid they can't see what went down downstairs, further ignorance is not going to change their lives.
 

OtherSideofSky

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CrystalShadow said:
OtherSideofSky said:
CrystalShadow said:
OtherSideofSky said:
Well, I'm pretty sure the state of modern surgery means it will become obvious as soon as they decide to have sex, so it's probably a good idea to broach the subject before then. As much as cosmetic surgery has improved, doctors still cannot, to my knowledge, give people new, functional genitalia. Whatever discussing that in advance would do to the relationship is nothing compared to what it would do if left to be a surprise.
Functional in what sense?
It's true that genitalia is not functional in the sense that you are infertile. But I don't think that's what you meant.

I have it on reasonable authority that quite a few people can't tell the difference.
(This has included gynaecologists, whose job kind of requires they know what a vagina is normally like.)

There are functional problems at the moment, yes. But they don't exactly stand out like a sore thumb, and they mostly cause issues that have nothing to do with anything you'd want to be doing with another person.

(But do affect keeping it all working correctly long-term.)

That is, artificial female genitalia is pretty good. The latest experimental techniques solve almost all remaining practical issues, except those related to actual reproduction (which admittedly is a much bigger challenge.)
I have no idea how close it would seem to a real vagina, but it has no remaining functional issues that directly affect the ability to have sex, and it solves the much bigger problem of the tendency of artificial vaginas to try and close up (as if they are an open wound)

The mainstream techniques are a little less good, but still far from 'non-functional'. There are frequently problems surrounding self-lubrication, and the afore-mentioned tendency for the body to try and treat it like a wound, which requires constant work to counter-act, but otherwise has no bearing on it being 'functional' or not.
Results vary depending on the skill of the surgeon, but assuming the surgeon is skilled, look pretty much like the real deal.
There's also no problem with sexual pleasure. The ability to orgasm is there in about 2/3 of cases, which is pretty much identical to the figures for the female population.
The only thing that is usually very apparent is the lack of a cervix...
Which might be something you'd notice if you are a gynaecologist, but I doubt it's something you'll pick up on otherwise unless you go looking for it.

Artificial penises are a little less successful. They usually look reasonably OK, though not exactly perfect, but they do have some obvious problems.
The big one is that they do not have normal erectile tissue, so a pump is used instead.

This works just fine for sex, but it is of course a little strange, so it'd be difficult to hide.
Again, it doesn't present any problems for sexual pleasure, though it's somewhat further removed from ordinary men because there's no ejaculation, and generally no real need to stop the way most men usually would need to.

I'm curious where you get your information from though with regards to why you think surgically created genitalia isn't 'functional'.
You're hardly the first person I've heard say that, but it quite clearly is at least partially functional, so whatever you mean by that is a little unclear to me.

(I mean, you can have sex with artificial genitalia... So whatever 'lack of function' you're referring to has to be more subtle than that. - Aside from which, more people than you might think can't tell the difference, so it's not even something that's necessarily really obvious to others - even if it does present a few issues that are quite obvious to the person whose genitalia it is...)

Eh. Sometimes I'm really not convinced people have a realistic understanding of what things are really like. (And that's to say nothing of people that look at research from the 1970's and conclude it's obviously still like that in 2012...)

But then again, we're discussing a topic here that relies for it's very validity on the idea that you'd be able to be in a long-term relationship with a transsexual and not know about it.

It's kind of ironic that you've got groups of people saying they'd be able to tell, while at the same time discussing something that has at it's heart the idea that it's something you'd easily be able to hide from another.
I was referring primarily to problems with self lubrication and child-bearing (is it not the ultimate function of reproductive organs to, you know... reproduce? Shouldn't people at least be aware if someone they're with can't do that?) in the case of artificial vagina, and you yourself admit the differences in the case of penises are quite obvious when it comes to having sex. I would add that most images of such organs I have seen were more visibly apparent than you suggest, although the research and images in question are now six years out of date (I am not in the habit of reading medical reports on these matters regularly), so great advances may have been made in that time.

In any case, operating on the assumption that the fact could be easily concealed in all instances, I do think that there is a moral obligation not to conceal it from a long term partner. It seems like something that would be too indelibly tied to identity and personal history to admit of an honest relationship in the absence of such a disclosure. There is no obligation to parade it through the streets, but it seems... wrong to conceal such a large part of one's past from a person with whom one is on intimate terms.
Well, child-bearing is an important function yes. Without it the whole reproductive system wouldn't exist.

But it's hardly the only function. And when you think about it, probably the least used functionality overall.

Aside from which, there are plenty of other reasons why a person might be infertile.
But anyway...

As to pictures, I'm not sure what you were looking at if you did research it at all. One of the inherent problems with that kind of stuff is it's easy to be biased, both in terms of what you end up seeing, (if all the pictures you saw were from one surgeon for instance), and in terms of your frame of mind when looking at them.

For instance, if I showed you 1000 women at random, without telling you anything about why I'm showing you those pictures, would you pick up on the same things as if I showed you 1000 women and asked you to tell me which of them are transsexuals?

The mere suggestion that some of them might be would probably influence what you're thinking.

Or... Let's say I ask you to give me an impression of what a transsexual looks like...
What are you going to base this off?
Presumably, whatever images you've seen that you know are of transsexuals.

But... If someone doesn't stand out as being unusual, how will you know they are transsexual, unless they tell you so?

And if you take this into consideration in general, would it not seem quite obvious that since the only transsexuals anyone notices are the ones that are obvious, that they then conclude that all transsexuals can be easily identified?
(Because they formed their idea of what a transsexual is from a sample set that did not include those which are not easy to spot.)

For that matter, if I show you a really tall woman, you'd probably find that somewhat unusual, but otherwise think nothing of it.

If I tell you it's a transsexual though, there's every chance you'll assume that this is an obvious reason for why this person is tall, even though they may be totally unrelated facts.

Or, if someone sees a woman, and find out it's a transsexual, it's surprisingly common for them to point out 'male' features that 'prove' this...
Yet, these features are frequently within statistical realms of what's normally possible anyway.
So it is in fact not 'proof' of anything, just a person using a whole heap of meaningless details to back up and find evidence for something which they found out about through totally unrelated means.

Did you realise what something really was because of it's unusual features?
Or did you notice it's unusual features solely because you were told in advance there was something unusual about what you were looking at?
Oh, I make no claim to be able to tell the difference on sight (most of the artificial penises I've seen have been rather obvious, but I've never made any systematic search in that regard and see no real reason to ever do so, so I may have merely seen examples of poor workmanship). I'm sure I would fail more often than I succeeded were I inclined to make any attempt at differentiating post-op transexuals on sight. Your comments regarding pumps and self lubrication problems, however, lead me to suspect that it would become apparent with regards to sexual intercourse for reasons other than simple appearance. I just think that more people are likely to react badly encountering that as a surprise than would if they knew beforehand. I assume it varies greatly from one individual to another and that they should all make individual judgments based on their own personal circumstances.

Once again, I only think that there exists any real obligation to say anything in the case of a long term partner. It just doesn't seem right to me to keep that much of your history secret from a person you intend to share a significant portion of your life with. Beyond that (in less serious relationships), it's purely a matter of personal discretion as to how the individual in question thinks their partner might react and what they feel comfortable telling people. I just don't think that people in a serious relationship should keep secrets that big from each other.
 

Heinrich843

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Mortai Gravesend said:
Complete cop out. It's pathetic to claim there are logical fallacies and show none. You're all talk and no substance it seems. Especially on the bit where you talk about how people feel - but only if they're not the transsexuals.
Well- no, in my |"ORIGINAL POST"| and several times since I have claimed that full disclosure about major sexual issues to a partner is important. In my original post I noted that this isn't a transsexual issue- so much as a dating issue. That is to say that I believe everyone with any major sexual changes/issues/ or anything worth of note should be disclosed to a partner before intimate relationships when possible. Mutual respect. In this particular case, one sees fit not to do that- and is only serving to increase the possibility to future conflict with their partner.

You're arguing a non-point- arguing against something I never claimed. You assume that because I mention in this particular instance that transsexuals should disclose this to intimate partners that I exclude others, and that it solely applies to transsexuals. Again, I have mentioned, even in my original post this includes everyone.

I've given you several opportunities to realize this, but you seem to be fighting a different battle here.

I'm sure I haven't put it as eloquently as I could have- but it's all there.

The above post should probably read: "You're a bit too hotheaded to have a civil discussion with- so I am leaving you to your own devices- believe what you will".
 

Filiecs

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Personally, no, I don't think so. The only thing I'd care about is the fact that they can't have kids.
Especially not if it was a one night fling. They are a woman now and have had woman mentally for probably most of their life. A person with a woman's mentality that was born a woman doesn't need to assure that they are woman so why should a transgender have to tell their partner that they were born in a body that they didn't want? It's none of their business.

It would be a good idea for a long term relationship though as the partner might feel betrayed.
 

Fishyash

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I would think transparency is important in a relationship. Especially if it is related to sex (I consider transgender as part of that).

It is a big deal for some people, not so much for others, but if you don't tell a partner you are having a long term relationship with on this issue it could potentially bite you in the ass eventually. If someone truly loved you, they would be fine with it.
 

Soviet Steve

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I wouldn't be interested if I knew it and as a result they would be wasting my time if they kept it from me.
 

Lady Larunai

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I would have replied earlier but I have been sick

Mortai Gravesend said:
racrevel said:
The only obligation is to inform them you can't have a child..
Okay, so let's examine this. Why should they inform someone of this? The only reason I see is potential desires on the part of the other person in the relationship. So are we going to say that they should consider what the other person in the relationship finds important?
I see what you did there.
The want for both parties to have children is a completely different topic but still in general I would like to know if my partner can or cannot have kids at some point as I would personally like to have children, it's just a more general point to have a conversation about rather than weather my partner used to be male or female.


Ok now for this one

Cavan said:
racrevel said:
I have a comparison for you, that will maybe make 'you' understand (and i'm actually sort of proud of this one).

Imagine that you were a former prisoner(the metaphorical state of existing within a gender that feels wrong to you), you are now free..but that doesn't change the fact that you used to be there. The morally right thing to do would be to tell people how things used to stand, so that they can understand how you have come to change and will be able to comprehend how you may respond to things in the future. Being out of prison doesn't automatically wipe clean all memory that you have been there, either legally or within your family and friends, and it will follow you and impact what you can do (such as having children, but within this metaphor lets say it limits certain jobs), and if you didn't tell your partner you would have to add additional lies to the lie of omission of not telling them.

How would you feel if somebody had spend over a decade of their life in prison and never told you and acted as if it had never had any impact on their personality and they refused to share that portion of their life with you in a relationship?

I would argue also that you point on plastic surgery is invalid, if somebody had had plastic surgery and had something that wasn't a gender change done, I would want them to be entirely honest with me about it, because it's not something to be ashamed of.

To end with, YOU do not decide what is or isn't important to the OTHER person in a relationship. Be honest with yourself and with them.
Lets start with the finish, that scentance can be reversed to apply to both sides

With the plastic surgery thing, personally I don't need to know that my prospective partner had a nose job, cheeks shaved or ears made smaller or anything like that, it's not really of consequence to me, nor is it my business if they want to keep an abortion as a 17 year old secret, why should anyone need to inform me of any regrets or changes from the past if they don't want to? It's personality that counts not past (unless it's detrimental to my health like an std)

Ok last..
On a start off going on a real world note, most people need to do something wrong in order the be in prison, this girl or guy has done nothing of that sort wrong? Why should he or she be subject to treatment and divulging of past histories as if she or he were.
On this note there are many people
Who have been in physical prison and choose not to tell there partner

I understand that this it not the point of your comparison but it had to be mentioned other than that it's a well thought out one.

On the assumption that this said trans person is 100% stealth, there would be no real hindrance in jobs or so on other than children, also it's very rare that this girls parents are going to blurt out child hood stories of times when the child got its penis got caught in something, and of the parents were refusing to see there parents as the correct gender they probably wouldn't speak to them, sorry rambled a little..

On an end note, I still say they are not obliged to tell, but it is at their own risk on the off chance that it did come up.
 

Cyfu

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MeChaNiZ3D said:
Cyfu said:
Yes. just yes. imagine having sex with a woman and find out that she's a dude, that's wrong on so many levels
But that's the thing. They're not a guy, they're anatomically female now. I can tell from your comment that if your hypothetical partner told you that they used to be a guy that would be the end of any relationship. Do you think that's fair?
yes, i think that's fair. if they told me beforehand and i was cool with it then it's better for both of us,right? the ones that chose to do a surgery like this have to live with the consequences, because the majority doesn't like the idea of them having sex with the same gender as them selves. if they got a fake pussy and fake breasts doesn't matter. he once was a dude and that's a huge deal breaker.
 

Odbarc

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CrystalShadow said:
Odbarc said:
Would you keep dating a woman who was born a man?
Would you date the person if they said they were a man before you started dating?

"I'm a man. Want to have sex?"
Lol. But no transsexual would say that, because no transsexual thinks that way about themselves.

You (and those making comments like you are) are missing a crucial point in that regard.

You're asking someone to tell you they are actually a man, but they don't think they are.

So... You are in a way asking them to be 'honest' with you by telling you something that in their own opinion is a lie.

How is that supposed to work exactly?
I am a woman who was born without a vagina or uterus.
I am a woman who was born with a penis and testicles.
I am a woman who had her penis and testicles surgically removed or altered to appear like vagina.
I require taking pills to look feminine or I grow a beard.
I am a woman whose name used to be Jim.