If you enjoy Superheroes without Superpowers, than whats the point?

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Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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What's the point about the Superhero genre if you favor Superheroes that have no powers?

Like one of the reasons I want to see a Superhero thing is to see how them doing increadible feats with thier Superpowers and save people with their powers and fight villains with thier powers. Like if I want to play a Superhero RPG, why would would I want to play the ones that have no powers?

But with Heroes like Batman, they are popular and overshadow the heroes that do have powers and are human, thus more "relatable" to the reader and then they are written off as Overpowered, Mary Sues, and just not that deep and are one-note cliche characters.
 

Cicada 5

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People enjoy different things within a genre. It's that simple.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Couldn't part of the entertainment be someone that obviously tricks, outwits, or otherwise manipulates someone with a lot of power? In the same way the best villains are smart villains, not necessarily stupidly powerful villains.

That whole idea that maybe, just maybe, hard work, and good training, allows one to overcome someone who essentially won the 'powers' lottery? Of course it also imparts the flipside argument of money lets you get away with anything you want and with very little pressure to act in accordance with basic law and order and people will empathize with you no matter how thin and morally compromising the differences between you and those people you beat the shit out of.

That and even if X-Men and the message behind it comes from a decent place, as a mutant with an extra chromosome it kind of annoys me that all I ever got was long legs, underdeveloped sense of co-ordination requiring physical training as a kid and kind of really long fingers.

I feel like I got cheated by fantasy. To be fair I'm 2-3 inches taller than I would have been. But I feel like the pay off isn't worth it. Turns out reality sucks.
 

Cicada 5

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It should be remembered that some magic based superheroes like Dr Strange and Zatanna were trained for their powers not born with them.
 

Casual Shinji

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The point is watching an ordinary person be extraodinary, rather than an extraordinary person be extraordinary.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Casual Shinji said:
The point is watching an ordinary person be extraodinary, rather than an extraordinary person be extraordinary.
Batman is hardly ordinary :p

But if that works I prefer watching a normal Knight in Plate Armour a Sword and Shield slaying a Dragon.
 

stroopwafel

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Yeah, Batman has a fantastical element without being childish like superheroes. I've long outgrown superheroes but I still really love Batman as it speaks to a more mature audience. There are more mature subjects you can approach which you can't with someone who turns big and green for example. Also, Batman looks way cooler than superheroes in their silly pyjamas. :p
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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stroopwafel said:
Yeah, Batman has a fantastical element without being childish like superheroes. I've long outgrown superheroes but I still really love Batman as it speaks to a more mature audience. There are more mature subjects you can approach which you can't with someone who turns big and green for example. Also, Batman looks way cooler than superheroes in their silly pyjamas. :p
I used to be like you in your belief in Batman....than I actually read comic books that don't have him in the forefront :p
 

PapaGreg096

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stroopwafel said:
Yeah, Batman has a fantastical element without being childish like superheroes. I've long outgrown superheroes but I still really love Batman as it speaks to a more mature audience. There are more mature subjects you can approach which you can't with someone who turns big and green for example. Also, Batman looks way cooler than superheroes in their silly pyjamas. :p
The "big and green" guy touch subjects on militarization, WMD, self control, abusive parents, and fatherhood.

OT me personally I like a bit diversity, sometimes I like watching Moon Knight taking a sniper and other times I like watching the Flash fix a building.
 

Vanilla ISIS

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The only thing that overpowered about Batman is his intellect.
He's just a human being so he has to figure out a way to beat a superpowered enemy in a way that doesn't involve direct 1 on 1 combat.
If you think about humanity, our entire history is about figuring things out and using our brains to achieve otherwise impossible things such as the ability to fly.
I think that's why the idea of someone like Batman speaks to people.
Batman became the best because of hard work and determination. That's inspiring, unlike someone like Superman who was just born awesome and never had to work for his skills.

My mom doesn't like superheroes because they're overpowered but she likes Batman because he's just a guy who got good.
She also likes him because there's tension when he's fighting. One stray bullet and he's gone.
Superman took a nuke to the face in BvS and was only out for 10 minutes, that's boring.
Wonder Woman got seriously smacked around by Zeus in her movie and didn't even get a scratch, that's boring.
It took 3 movies for Thor to finally get an injury, that's boring.
when Batman takes off his shirt in Justice League and we see all his bruises and scars, when WW has to pop his arm back into place, that's interesting.

Overwhelming strength is boring.
Overcoming weakness is interesting.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Vanilla ISIS said:
The only thing that overpowered about Batman is his intellect.
He's just a human being so he has to figure out a way to beat a superpowered enemy in a way that doesn't involve direct 1 on 1 combat.
If you think about humanity, our entire history is about figuring things out and using our brains to achieve otherwise impossible things such as the ability to fly.
I think that's why the idea of someone like Batman speaks to people.
Batman became the best because of hard work and determination. That's inspiring, unlike someone like Superman who was just born awesome and never had to work for his skills.

My mom doesn't like superheroes because they're overpowered but she likes Batman because he's just a guy who got good.
She also likes him because there's tension when he's fighting. One stray bullet and he's gone.
Superman took a nuke to the face in BvS and was only out for 10 minutes, that's boring.
Wonder Woman got seriously smacked around by Zeus in her movie and didn't even get a scratch, that's boring.
It took 3 movies for Thor to finally get an injury, that's boring.
when Batman takes off his shirt in Justice League and we see all his bruises and scars, when WW has to pop his arm back into place, that's interesting.

Overwhelming strength is boring.
Overcoming weakness is interesting.
But that's not the point of Superheroes. Superheroes is being in a fantasy where man have powers which we don't have in real life.

And having heroes that has no powers yet can match the superpowered world destroys the fantasy.

Batman in essence is an aberration to the Fantasy of being a Superhero.

Because at that point you might aswell be just a costumed vigilante in a world full of Human Crime ala Watchmen.

To use an example, you might aswell just watch Game of Thrones over Lord of the Rings.

Or an even more extreme, you might aswell watch the Sopranos over Game of Thrones.
 

PapaGreg096

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Vanilla ISIS said:
The only thing that overpowered about Batman is his intellect.
He's just a human being so he has to figure out a way to beat a superpowered enemy in a way that doesn't involve direct 1 on 1 combat.
If you think about humanity, our entire history is about figuring things out and using our brains to achieve otherwise impossible things such as the ability to fly.
I think that's why the idea of someone like Batman speaks to people.
Batman became the best because of hard work and determination. That's inspiring, unlike someone like Superman who was just born awesome and never had to work for his skills.

My mom doesn't like superheroes because they're overpowered but she likes Batman because he's just a guy who got good.
She also likes him because there's tension when he's fighting. One stray bullet and he's gone.
Superman took a nuke to the face in BvS and was only out for 10 minutes, that's boring.
Wonder Woman got seriously smacked around by Zeus in her movie and didn't even get a scratch, that's boring.
It took 3 movies for Thor to finally get an injury, that's boring.
when Batman takes off his shirt in Justice League and we see all his bruises and scars, when WW has to pop his arm back into place, that's interesting.

Overwhelming strength is boring.
Overcoming weakness is interesting.
Superman died in BVS so its not like he is unbeatable. I don't get this problem, yeah sure when it comes to most harm Superman is invulnerable but its not like there aren't people that can either go toe to toe with him or even beat him in some cases. Also while Superman was born with his powers its not like he head mastery over them remember that world of card board speech in Justice League, Superman is more about self control than self improvement
 

Xprimentyl

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Well, let?s not let Batman entirely off the ?superpower? hook; being a BILLIONAIRE is pretty much a superpower. I mean, if Bruce Wayne managed to do all that cool ?Batman? stuff whilst living in his mom?s basement, struggling with a tenuous hold on a full-time job at Best Buy, Alfred was an unreliable stoner friend and the Batmobile was a used 2003 Toyota Corolla he?s still paying off, THAT?D be impressive?
 

Kyman102

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Xprimentyl said:
Well, let?s not let Batman entirely off the ?superpower? hook; being a BILLIONAIRE is pretty much a superpower.
I also maintain that no human can gain THAT many degree equivalents and master THAT many martial arts and STILL get back to Gotham to still be in his physical prime to do his Batman-ing without being SOME kind of Metahuman.

Batman done WELL is a study of a man whose strengths are setting up situations where he can take advantage of his strengths that can negate the abilities of foes out of his weight class, as well as a somber look into the human condition.

Batman done POORLY is a giant jack-off fest of people saying that Batman is the greatest because he's just a normal human but he can also fight Darkseid and Superman and he has contingency plans that let him take down literally every member of the League because he's motherfucking BATMAN.

I honestly think the worst Batman comics come from when the internet fans in of the latter category Batman started getting jobs writing comics. Some versions of Batman in various comics feel less like Batman and more like a nominally good Lex Luthor.
 
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Vanilla ISIS said:
The only thing that overpowered about Batman is his intellect.
He's just a human being so he has to figure out a way to beat a superpowered enemy in a way that doesn't involve direct 1 on 1 combat.
If you think about humanity, our entire history is about figuring things out and using our brains to achieve otherwise impossible things such as the ability to fly.
I think that's why the idea of someone like Batman speaks to people.
Batman became the best because of hard work and determination. That's inspiring, unlike someone like Superman who was just born awesome and never had to work for his skills.

My mom doesn't like superheroes because they're overpowered but she likes Batman because he's just a guy who got good.
She also likes him because there's tension when he's fighting. One stray bullet and he's gone.
Superman took a nuke to the face in BvS and was only out for 10 minutes, that's boring.
Wonder Woman got seriously smacked around by Zeus in her movie and didn't even get a scratch, that's boring.
It took 3 movies for Thor to finally get an injury, that's boring.
when Batman takes off his shirt in Justice League and we see all his bruises and scars, when WW has to pop his arm back into place, that's interesting.

Overwhelming strength is boring.
Overcoming weakness is interesting.
This is exactly why I love Superman and hate Batman.

First thing is first. Superman was given abilities. And the world could have been a smoldering ash if he went to the wrong family. He chooses, every day, to be better than the temptations of being a living God where almost an entire Universe can't step to him. When he talks about how he always has to limit himself, I can't imagine anything more limiting.



You want to talk about being the best? Imagine walking around and knowing that if you don't control your sneeze, a city block could disappear, killing thousands. Talk about having to monitor every time you touch someone because if you jerk with your natural muscle spasms, you could make that person into a smear in a second.

Meanwhile, Batman? Batman could put his billions into a task force that Jim Gordon oversees. With Jim's integrity and Bruce's influence and ability to get the Gotham PD trained, he could actually do something real to clean up his city. But no. Batman was hurt, so he has to hurt others to feel whole.

Bruce could do more for Gotham by actually even running for Office and helping Jim remake the police force. For all the fundraising he does in the odd comic or show, there still seems to be a HUGE gap of inequity in Gotham that makes people feel the only way they can survive is crime. But screw solving the socioeconomic reasons of people's motivations. They be bad, punch them lots.

I get why you find him interesting. and I respect that. But I find Batman boring. As I find most villains boring. Because they are commonplace. You get where they are coming from. Batman is about revenge. A typical human reaction. Villains are about selfishness. If superpowers popped up now, I'm sure the world would have way more than its share of villains because selfishness seems to be today's default mindset.

In many ways, Batman was afforded more ability to change the world for the better than Superman is. Superman, while gifted with many abilities, is a glorified Mr. Fix-it. Asteroid here, Natural Disaster there, Space Evil punched, and yeah, that's what he's good for. Now, could he turn a large enough plot of land into a farm to feed all of a country? Yeah. But that would be bad to humans. Because they will get lazy because literal God is here to make it all better.

Meanwhile, as a human, Bruce Wayne can use his influence and wealth to inspire people. To help people work for themselves. While Superman can make almost any place into a farm, he can't teach people to do it like he does. Bruce can help provide training, land, and even resources so people can create whatever they want for themselves. Bruce's abilities can help humans be more self-sufficient. Superman can outright fix all problems so everyone is lazy.

But, with the ability, does Batman do it? No. Because he has to work out his own inner demons and he needs to convince himself that he's the only one who can. He needs that justification because he knows it's a profoundly selfish thing he's doing probably deep in his core, but he can't stop. Is he doing good things? Yes. Obviously. He's saving lives. Is he doing it in an efficient way, a way that helps more people? Absolutely not. He's one person running around trying to put out all Gotham's fires because his house burned down once and he needs all fires to know that he won't cower to them any more!

Instead of, you know... funding multiple kickass Firehouses that could be in more places than he could ever.

Someone who is a God who chooses to hold to his humanity with every fiber of his being is interesting. I don't know how many people today would do that. That's what makes him Extraordinary. Someone who's doing something selfish, albeit laudable and to the benefit of others, but twists the reasoning in his head to think only he can do that is... Damn, just go outside and throw a rock. You'll hit someone who's doing their own version of Batman.
 

Natemans

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Samtemdo8 said:
What's the point about the Superhero genre if you favor Superheroes that have no powers?

Like one of the reasons I want to see a Superhero thing is to see how them doing increadible feats with thier Superpowers and save people with their powers and fight villains with thier powers. Like if I want to play a Superhero RPG, why would would I want to play the ones that have no powers?

But with Heroes like Batman, they are popular and overshadow the heroes that do have powers and are human, thus more "relatable" to the reader and then they are written off as Overpowered, Mary Sues, and just not that deep and are one-note cliche characters.
Superheroes are not always defined by their powers. Anybody can be a hero. Many become a hero based on many reasons and the reason a regular person become a hero is a bit relatable.

Heck a good example would be Ted Kord a.k.a. Blue Beetle. He couldn't find a way to work the ancient alien scarab by the Reach so he just decides to do his job as a hero and fight crime with his strength. The guy kept in shape though at some point, he didn't.

Having a hero can be from anybody. It doesn't destroy the fantasy really.
 

Xprimentyl

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ObsidianJones said:
First thing is first. Superman was given abilities. And the world could have been a smoldering ash if he went to the wrong family. He chooses, every day, to be better than the temptations of being a living God where almost an entire Universe can't step to him. When he talks about how he always has to limit himself, I can't imagine anything more limiting.
?.
You want to talk about being the best? Imagine walking around and knowing that if you don't control your sneeze, a city block could disappear, killing thousands. Talk about having to monitor every time you touch someone because if you jerk with your natural muscle spasms, you could make that person into a smear in a second.
Not a Superman fan, but to your points, I?ll just leave this here?

 

Natemans

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Samtemdo8 said:
Vanilla ISIS said:
The only thing that overpowered about Batman is his intellect.
He's just a human being so he has to figure out a way to beat a superpowered enemy in a way that doesn't involve direct 1 on 1 combat.
If you think about humanity, our entire history is about figuring things out and using our brains to achieve otherwise impossible things such as the ability to fly.
I think that's why the idea of someone like Batman speaks to people.
Batman became the best because of hard work and determination. That's inspiring, unlike someone like Superman who was just born awesome and never had to work for his skills.

My mom doesn't like superheroes because they're overpowered but she likes Batman because he's just a guy who got good.
She also likes him because there's tension when he's fighting. One stray bullet and he's gone.
Superman took a nuke to the face in BvS and was only out for 10 minutes, that's boring.
Wonder Woman got seriously smacked around by Zeus in her movie and didn't even get a scratch, that's boring.
It took 3 movies for Thor to finally get an injury, that's boring.
when Batman takes off his shirt in Justice League and we see all his bruises and scars, when WW has to pop his arm back into place, that's interesting.

Overwhelming strength is boring.
Overcoming weakness is interesting.
But that's not the point of Superheroes. Superheroes is being in a fantasy where man have powers which we don't have in real life.

And having heroes that has no powers yet can match the superpowered world destroys the fantasy.

Not really. Being the regular schmoe still keeps a relatable outlook in a world of the fantastical.

Batman in essence is an aberration to the Fantasy of being a Superhero.

That's mainly because the writers made an idea where Bruce dedicates his life to fight crime so he works out like a maniac and trains to be really good. So yeah, he's OP, but still a person.

Because at that point you might aswell be just a costumed vigilante in a world full of Human Crime ala Watchmen.

Wasn't the whole point of Watchmen a deconstruction on the superhero genre in general? Also Watchmen was a realistic approach to what heroes are viewed in a cynical world. Just because its a deconstruction doesn't always mean it should amount to do the same thing for heroes with no powers.

To use an example, you might aswell just watch Game of Thrones over Lord of the Rings.

Or an even more extreme, you might aswell watch the Sopranos over Game of Thrones.
 

Catnip1024

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You think Batman, a millionaire with a fricking butler, is more relatable than a superhero. Seriously? Superpowers done well give you far greater weaknesses than "occasionally isn't able to buy his way out of things". Look at Rogue, for example. A far more relatable character than Batman.

Xprimentyl said:
Well, let?s not let Batman entirely off the ?superpower? hook; being a BILLIONAIRE is pretty much a superpower. I mean, if Bruce Wayne managed to do all that cool ?Batman? stuff whilst living in his mom?s basement, struggling with a tenuous hold on a full-time job at Best Buy, Alfred was an unreliable stoner friend and the Batmobile was a used 2003 Toyota Corolla he?s still paying off, THAT?D be impressive?
I have never understood the fascination with billionaires on these things. Like Iron Man. Private billionaire buys himself superpowers and attempts to shape geopolitics to suit his whim. And we're supposed to root for this guy?

Because for most people, being a billionaire is pretty much as unattainable as developing laser vision.