I'm a straight male gamer, convince me diversity in games is a good thing

burnout02urza

New member
Nov 22, 2009
51
0
0
Oh please, you know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about game that are meant to appeal to the Straight White Male demographic. Plenty of JRPGs appeal to the Straight White Male demographic, even if they aren't meant to - They give the same violent and sexual content that has universal appeal. Tomb Raider...Eh, I'd give you that, but I generally don't play games with a female protagonist.

When I play an MMO, I make a straight white male. When I play an RPG, the character's also a straight white male. (Or the closest equivalent: Dark Souls would be a male Undead, Mass Effect would be a straight, male Commander Shepherd.)

I can't believe that you're seriously comparing something like Tomb Raider or Tales of Xilla to Gone Home or Depression Quest. There's a massive gulf - You might as well say that something like Agarest Senki is feminist, because there are female characters...When the emphasis is on titillation and clunky JRPG combat...But mostly titillation.

More, I never said that 'only' straight white males buy games and comics. That's prevarication. I am, however, saying that the majority of gamers are indeed straight white males. (All right, straight males in general - I'll give you that one.) That's where gaming companies know their bread is buttered on: The bulk of their sales come, overwhelmingly, from that demographic.

They should be punished with less sales and bad press for moving away from it, instead of people desperately trying to tell us 'this is what we should want'. If they embraced the social justice warrior crowd, they'd be sadly disappointed in how much they expect profits to jump - And in fact, profits should drop as compared to a game aimed at the majority demographic.

edit: In fact, I would say that Japanese games in general are more appealing to the Straight White Male (Or really, just the Straight Male) demographic than Western games are. For one thing, the women are generally more attractive and feminine. They also don't have to try as hard to be 'one of the boys', manly and masculine and GRAAAAAH.

It's like there's this overwhelming fear that correlates feminity and attractiveness with sexism. Anita is simply throwing fuel on the fire, by feeding this mistaken assumption.
 

JimB

New member
Apr 1, 2012
2,180
0
0
Genocidicles said:
Is this a good thing, for me? From where I'm standing, all diversity in gaming has brought us is shit like Gone Home. How can I get on board with 'diversity moving gaming forward', if it just means more crappy games I won't play on Steam?
Wait...you're saying you need to be convinced diversity is good because one, single game exists that you don't want to buy (for extremely nonspecific reasons)? It is a problem for you if not every single game ever is for you?

God damn, son.
 

Story

Note to self: Prooof reed posts
Sep 4, 2013
905
0
0
burnout02urza said:
They should be punished with less sales and bad press for moving away from it, instead of people desperately trying to tell us 'this is what we should want'. If they embraced the social justice warrior crowd, they'd be sadly disappointed in how much they expect profits to jump - And in fact, profits should drop as compared to a game aimed at the majority demographic.
Whoa. I kinda understand you guy...sorta but, why should they be punished for more diversity? Isn't that kinda limiting the gaming medium as a whole if we do this? What if the developers of the game wanted a female, Hispanic protagonist not because they wanted to fill some minority agenda but because they feel that character would be the best way to tell the story they want to tell. Are you telling me they should always focus on making money and never trying a project that they are passionate about? That's baffling to me.

Also, sorry this but opens up a whole bunch of other questions.
If only straight male games sell, how come things like Gone Home were a financial success? Doesn't that prove that there is a market for more diverse games?
Wouldn't the press be even worse for being bias towards only one type of game? Isn't that why when critics Call of Duty and it's ilk they get so much hate?
And if every character needed straight guys than what about games that use more abstract concepts like animals, shapes, machines, ect.?

Edit:
I have one last thing to say, both to you and to the OP.
Both of you just sound really selfish like people who don't want to share their hobby with anyone else but people like them and that's a shame. This is a very big world with a lot of diversity, I feel our great video game medium should reflect that.
 

TasmanianDevil

New member
Jun 3, 2014
6
0
0
burnout02urza said:
They should be punished with less sales and bad press for moving away from it, instead of people desperately trying to tell us 'this is what we should want'.
Who exactly is moving away from targeting straight white males though? All I see are games that decide to target other audiences in addition to the straight white male demographic (eg. Bioware games), or companies and titles that never pandered to that demographic to begin with.

Including options in games doesn't take the standard ones available to you away, and creating games that explore themes or feature characters you don't want to explore or play as does not stop games that cater to how you are from being made; it's important to realise that Gone Home, for example, was never going to be anything but what it ended up being. I iterate: adding options don't take yours away. If it concerns you that much, sure, vote with your wallet - I mean, it'll probably be a bit awkward if the game ends up being the next Baldur's Gate or something and you end up being the guy who never played it, but entirely your choice. Just be aware that not many other people really care about this stuff as an issue (I mean, we all loved Tomb Raider and the lead was a chick in that; Ripley in Aliens for a movie comparison).
 

Baron von Blitztank

New member
May 7, 2010
2,134
0
0
Casual Shinji said:
Because variety is the spice of life?

Look, growing pains are a shit phase to go through, but afterward you'll be happy you did.

Honestly though, I'd like more diversity of... species. Gives us your mudokons, your rayman's (?), your huddled lombaxes.

Seriously though, fuck off with all the humans, I wracked my brain just trying to come up with three different non-human game characters for that lame joke.
Honestly, I'm much more in favour of this kind of diversity as well.
Do I want to play as a Straight white guy? A Bisexual muslim woman? A Transsexual Gurkha? Fuck that! I want to play as a lizardman! Or an Alien soldier set on destroying the world! Or a game about a violent race of aliens who've grown an arse for a face (if this game exists, let me know). Basically what I'm saying is, we need more games like Destroy All Humans!.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
18,847
0
0
burnout02urza said:
Just look at the comics industry: All-New Ultimates and All-New Ghost Rider, both of which feature minority protagonists, have been canned. Why? Because the people pushing for more representation are those who don't buy or read comics. Straight white males buy and read comics, and buy/play video games.
'.
most of the comics I buy have female characters....some even in lead roles

Rahkshi500 said:
But the thing is that many people who cry out for "diversity" only seem to care about is not actual diversity, but instead care about imposing what is acceptable or not onto everyone else, to replace one status quo with another status quo, and if that isn't what their intentions or goals are, then they're really doing a good job at getting that across.
actually no...thats a complete fiction made up by people have have their priorities waaaaaay out of whack

like I said to the OP....theres a million other things you should worry about before the "PC police"
 

MrHide-Patten

New member
Jun 10, 2009
1,309
0
0
More BOOBIES obviously, more female characters equals more boobies. If you claim to be as white, male and STRAIGHT as you say you are, then I dare you to find a problem with boobies.

TL;DR: Boobies. Thats a wrap everybody, go home.

EDIT: looked back through the thread and...

Genocidicles said:
How is dumbing games down so that more women can play them a good thing exactly?
...oh my. I'm gonna go... cry quitely...
 

G00N3R7883

New member
Feb 16, 2011
281
0
0
I normally avoid this type of discussion as well, mainly because the subject just doesn't bother me, and it tends to turn into a huge flamewar from both sides. However I think this is one thread where the title/first post is phrased in a way that I want to contribute something.

I'm white, male, 31 years old. When I say I don't care that much about diversity I mean it from the point of view that I just want to play good games. It doesn't matter what race, gender or age my character is. I want a good story with interesting characters and dialogue, I want combat mechanics that are fun and have some tactical depth, I could list other elements that go into making a good game but we'd be here all day.

The OP mentions Gone Home. I haven't played it so I can't comment on that one. But there are lots of others that come to my mind. I've enjoyed the last four Tomb Raider games. Remember Me had a good story. Walking Dead season 1 was amazing, I'm currently playing season 2 and enjoying that so far. I've played all the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games as both genders and enjoyed them equally. Resident Evil Revelations is my favourite from that franchise for a long time. Heck, I even picked the siren in both Borderlands games because I thought she had the best special power.

So if more games have lead characters with a different gender or race in the future, that's not a problem for me. But I've also played lots of fun games where the lead character was a white male, so that's fine for me too.
 

Mohamed Medhat

New member
Feb 3, 2013
37
0
0
Personally, I couldn't care less. I love Lara Croft, I love Bill and Ellie from the last of us and I love Connor and Adewale from Assassins Creed. Would I play a game starring someone who's NOT a white, straight mid 30s guy? sure, if the game is awesome and compelling, then why not--would I whine and moan about the lack of diversity? No.

I don't believe the whining for diversity in video games leads to anything. I think it's superficial--I play games to enjoy compelling stories and traverse innovative levels not ponder about the color or gender of my avatar. if the story is decent, characterization is solid and level design is innovative then that's all I need in my game. political correctness be damned.
 

Rahkshi500

New member
May 25, 2014
190
0
0
Vault101 said:
actually no...thats a complete fiction made up by people have have their priorities waaaaaay out of whack

like I said to the OP....theres a million other things you should worry about before the "PC police"
Actually, no. It is the truth, because I have seen and encountered such people who have come out and said such things. And you or anyone else denying or saying that it's fake doesn't change the fact that it is there. And because there are things that I should be more worried about doesn't make the PC police problem any less of a problem. That is a fallacy right there.
 

Mohamed Medhat

New member
Feb 3, 2013
37
0
0
I love how the comparisons and analogies here work--implying that biscuits are comparable to straight white guys in games, as if EVERY straight white guy is the EXACT same copy of each other lol.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
18,847
0
0
Rahkshi500 said:
Actually, no. It is the truth, because I have seen and encountered such people who have come out and said such things. And you or anyone else denying or saying that it's fake doesn't change the fact that it is there. And because there are things that I should be more worried about doesn't make the PC police problem any less of a problem. That is a fallacy right there.
look dude...no one is going to force female characters into shawshank redemption...ain't gonna fuckin happen

EA trying to cash in the COD money? probably will
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,909
0
0
My basic point of view is that diversity in games is a "bad" thing largely because of the state of the industry. Right now enough games are not being made to cater to people who want different styles of games, because game companies just do not care. We don't see AAA turn based RPGs with huge amounts of depth because they won't sell as well as casually themed action games. Sure, they will make money, but not as much money. All development goes in one particular direction. Every so often you do see something besides the "usual customers" rolled out for a bit, but it usually doesn't last, and by the second or third installment it's going to be made to be the same as everything else. We frequently see the argument made that "serious" gamers shouldn't hate on casuals for example, because there are enough games for everyone, but that's not actually true, only so many games are being developed, and every time a casual game is made it means a non-casual game is not being made.

I'm tired so I probably didn't articulate that well.

The point here is that when your talking about "diversity" and how "it wouldn't hurt to see more protagonists of X type" the thing to understand is that in the current environment we can't have that alongside the current games that exist, the way the market works we pretty much have to have that *INSTEAD* of what currently exists. Basically if the game industry starts developing games with LGBT protagonists, it won't be as a niche product alongside what else is already out there. I mean if they cared about niche products we'd see more serious RPGs out there as there is a bigger audience for that and we do not. It means it's all we'd see in an entire game cycle, and in the meantime everyone else who doesn't like that kind of stuff would have to deal or not game. To a "social justice warrior" that sounds great, but to everyone else it's not so great, and really the industry realizes that the LGBT population is so small it isn't worth catering to the way it would have to. They would take epic losses by their standards (simply on the merits of the game not making as much profit as it could have, even if it makes *a* profit). This is why you don't see it happening, and also why so many people do not consider "diversity" a big issue.

See, if more games were being made at a high level, it wouldn't be an issue, every niche could have it's own stuff. You could have your hardcore RPGs, your casual games, your mousey "feminist" protagonists alongside the sex goddesses, the lesbians and gays alongside the regular straight people, and so on, with there being enough in those niches to keep the people in them fairly happy, but that's now how things tend to work.

Despite my overall sentiments on gay rights, I actually care less if someone wants to make a game with say two gay men that are into each other, for gay men who might want to game. I on the other hand do not particularly want to watch two gay guys making bambi eyes at each other and sticking their tongues down each other's throats. I find it kind of gross even if it's harmless in an absolute sense between two consenting adults. I am not going to play a game that is going to gross me out or make me uncomfortable, and let's be frank, if your one of the more sane gay rights activists your not trying to offensively gross people out for "payback" you just want games with people like you. Basically, if something like this is at the forefront of a game I am not going to buy it, and frankly despite what they might say to seem politically enlightened, most other people won't either. There isn't enough of a niche who would buy this to make it profitable, and if it was the only game-type out there due to a major push for diversity I just wouldn't buy games
until something that isn't going to gross me out comes along.

In this current environment, I generally do not champion certain kinds of diversity, because with so few games they do take things away from me. I'm generally cool if some game like "Dragon Age: Origins" give you the option to do some guy for those who might want to, as long as the rest of us aren't forced into having to experience that. That kind of thing is about as far as diversity goes with me.

Now, if the industry ever reforms, and we see more titles developed at a high end level coming out, of course I'm not going to object to a lot of them catering to niche markets. Indeed I'd actually encourage it. I don't believe in an environment of plenty that everything has to be directed at people like me. Sadly we're dealing with more famine than feast, and face it, gamers are always looking for new games, especially given how easy it is to exhaust the content in the current ones. Pointing backwards to the games already made doesn't do much for people who of course want to keep gaming, nor company bottom lines in the current environment. I'm not going to starve myself for someone else's benefit, I want my kind of food coming in my direction as heartless as that might sound. But again, if we start seeing far more than I could ever possibly eat produced, which isn't really the case in the current AAA obsessed market, by all means, spread it around.

When it comes to the indie sector, as the OP has pointed out there is some diversity there already. I am pretty much willing to just skip over indie games that have content I'm not into, and there are plenty of those flooding the market right now that it makes diversity more popular. That said, it should be noted that you don't see as much diversity as people might like, because certain groups are not as numerous as they might want to believe, and even Indie developers want to make money and attract users. The number of gay guys who will buy and/or follow a game with two studly dudes having a romance is minimal compared to the number of straight guys who will buy and/or follow a game with a guy and a girl involved in a romance. There isn't quite enough glut yet where you see major rushes to micro markets like that (as opposed to niche markets which are a little bigger), though it is starting to happen, after all I was hearing that one indie game that is doing okay is some "Max Gentleman" game which is about mostly naked beefy dudes in cheesecake poses engaged in mini-games with other similar guys (apparently "Max Gentleman" is the actual name of a playable character and the assumed protagonist, not that it has much of a story). Other similar products are also appearing, for example there is a very black oriented (Afro-Carribean by it's description) adventure game series called "The Journey Down" that just got it's second chapter.

The diversity is already there, it's just that it isn't everywhere which is what I think some people unreasonably demand when they claim about wanting "diversity". Basically a demand that something in the homoerotic spirit of Max Gentleman (I haven't played it, just heard about it, so perhaps I have it wrong) be front page material and sell millions of copies... when really there just isn't that kind of audience for it.

That said if there is ever an industry crash or restructuring that leads to big publisher increasing the output of games and doing a lot of "A" and "B" level games instead of just "AAA", you'll probably see a lot of better quality niche and micro market products as opposed to indies.

Such are my thoughts, I'm not going to get into a huge argument on the subject as I already know a lot of people disagree with me. Just expressing my sentiments for those who might not have heard them (or care) not much I haven't said before.

In short the basic gist of it is that diversity is a good thing when you production allows for it. Forcing diversity into an area with very limited production like the gaming industry has become is not. Like it or not "the standard" becomes "the standard" by being what most people want. While this might annoy various social groups pushing for representation, understand I've been railing against this a lot longer than it's been a popular social issue because it's why hardcore RPG gamers like me get so few titles, it's a different kind of division, but one that exists. I mean heck, the big stat based RPG series we do get inevitably turn into action game/hybrid thingies like Mass Effect and Dragon Age both did before long. Serious gamers can't even hold their own against casuals due to being outnumbered substantially, which is why simplification is everywhere. I get screwed by it in my own way, it kind of blows, but I at least understand it and why my own demands are not a "good" thing so to speak. It's also why I'm one of those people that looks at a computer game industry crash as if it would be a good thing, and constantly gripes at the current structure of the industry, and how any company that does anything even remotely different in a big way, gets gobbles up, turned into a simplified casual game grindhouse, and then has it's dessicated husk dropped into an abattoir outside of HQs of a company like EA.
 

Remag

New member
Apr 16, 2008
29
0
0
But that's the trick TC. For the first time in countless years, it's not about you.

And that's why it's a good thing.
 

Arcane Azmadi

New member
Jan 23, 2009
1,232
0
0
Question: can you accept that the entire world does not revolve around you?

If yes: congratulations, I've just convinced you that diversity in games is a good thing.

If no: I give up.
 

ilayoeli

New member
Jul 30, 2014
10
0
0
Diversity in games is neither a good thing nor bad.
Artstic integrity is good, diversity for the sake of diversity is bad.
 

ChristopherT

New member
Sep 9, 2010
164
0
0
It's nice to be included. Being able to play as or even see a character that you can relate to in a medium you like can be nice. Because there's a lot of people who are not straight, white, guys who happen to enjoy the hell out of videogames, and according to many they do not exist. We're in a really odd place, and I don't even know what this means, but from what I see there are more women who are uncomfortable to admit they like playing videogames than there are straight white guys who are uncomfortable to admit they like My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

Because when there is a default setting and it has become as common as the straight white male character with trimmed brown hair and a decent muscular structure, and most of them do not seem to have much in the way of character development, or personality, the word bland starts coming up, and if game makers can take a little more effort, put some more thought into their characters, flesh them out, define them, let them BE a part of the story then we might get some better story in games, even if the protag is a white straight male, with brown hair, and muscles. Just sometimes making a character other than straight, white, male, makes the writers think a bit more, and then we get characters instead of stand ins for the player. To hopefully help push the idea a little more that we're in a default setting, why brown hair? Why do we not see as many blondes or redheads? I think it's because we're stuck in a mold. And it may be because of two parts, the first being laziness, and the second being the reinforcement of the idea that a gamer that is not white, male, and straight does not exist in numbers.

Because when most of your videogame minority characters are background, and not important to the story or game, they're either bland or lazy stereotypes. And would you want a crate of games where almost all depictions of straight white male characters beat their wives, rape any woman they see, and play nothing but Call of Duty and Madden?

Because getting more people into gaming can give game makers more money. Because when we do get a good case of a minority character done well it's swallowed in the sea of those that are not. Because those who are ignorant of videogames, or lack a more indepth understanding of videogames and videogame protags keep regurgitating inaccurate "facts" about games, and there are not enough of us who are more informed to keep correcting these mistakes and help people understand games better, so it helps to have more mainstream, public eye released games that do fit in with those that already exist though in small numbers that keep getting forgotten or overlooked.

Because if Lee was white would Kenny ever come off as mildly racist? Sometimes a character being different can affect other characters around them.

Because sometimes as a straight white brunette male with short trimmed hair I happen to enjoy playing a game as a character who is not.

Because I do not like nor care for Gone Home, Tomb Raider(remake), or Remember Me. However I'll happily play Dino Crisis, Parasite Eve, Fatal Frame, Lollipop Chainsaw, Tomb Raider Underworld, and Syberia, to name a few.

Because there is a lack of interesting characters in videogames, to the point that when the topic comes up people list characterless Gordon Freeman, "their Sheppard", and their Skyrim character as great characters in gaming. And no, diversity alone will not fix that, but it can help, by getting devs to think more about the characters they are creating, how the affect the story, and how the story affects them, and by focusing on these a white straight male and a black straight female can co-exist in a videogame, both be dynamic, engaging, have personalities, fight enemies both in game and in themselves, and can both be well adjusted individuals from caring, loving, middle class families, or they could be completely different, from different backgrounds, and well thought out and written, and affect the game world different if giving care. But we're we are right now, we're not getting much of any of that.

Because we've entered a trend in games where talking OF something has become a common substitute for talking ABOUT something.

Because sometimes people don't know what they're talking about and say really stupid things without realizing it, and if more games were around to show them they might have a better understanding and gaming might be seen in a better light.

Because we're not a hive mind and should never become one.

Because we are so stuck in this mold of white male protag that people have started asking the wrong questions at the wrong time, like the initial question of why no womens in Assassin's Creed Unity?

Because sometimes, in answer to these ideas, some people respond with the idea of playing with a strange weird creature as opposed to a black guy, but some how they never quite say they'd also rather play as this strange weird creature instead of a white guy.

Because if all you do is surround yourself with those like you and media based on characters like yourself you as an individual may be limiting yourself to other experiences, thought processes, ideas, and inspection.

Because there's a demand for it.

Because having more games with minority characters, and ones hopefully well written, might give certain youtube celebs less to talk about and shut up and go away sooner. Because no matter how many games have already done it well, there's not enough and they'd just refuse they exist and twist the damn facts to suite their flavor of bullshit. But what 'ev.

Because we're a few years into a new wave of indie, and hopefully more people are getting into gaming, and why shouldn't they feel welcome?

Why does it matter to you that games exist that you don't like? There are many games that I'm aware of that do not interest me, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm not interested in Madden, Call of Duty, Battlefield, Gone Home, FarCry, Dark Souls, Spec Ops The Line, Bastion, Journey, Divinity, Titanfall, Watch Dogs, and I'm sure there's at least one hundred of them, and that's okay.
 

spartandude

New member
Nov 24, 2009
2,721
0
0
Arcane Azmadi said:
Question: can you accept that the entire world does not revolve around you?

If yes: congratulations, I've just convinced you that diversity in games is a good thing.

If no: I give up.
My good sir, if i could i would give you a cookie!