I'm a vegan and I come in peace...

[Cadmium Magenta]

Hi forum!

After watching MovieBob's recent Big Picture episode on the PeTA/Super Mario controversy, I'm curious about people's stance on animal rights here. What I found curious is that Bob asserted he supports animal rights, in that he abstains from products like fur and boycotts companies that test on animals. On the other hand though, eating animals does not seem to be problematic for him.

Just to be clear, I'm vegan myself and a very strong believer in animal rights, but I'm not a fan of PeTA and I absolutely agree with Bob's disapproval of their hysterical and sensationalist publicity work. Also, while I feel that being vegan is the most ethical way of living with animals, I do not view myself as being better than meat-eaters, nor do I think that eating meat makes you a bad person. Please don't see my opinion as an affront to your lifestyle and worldview. I don't mean to be hostile. My goal is to make people question some things we have been taught about the animals we eat, without shoving my own morality down their throats.

So let me just very briefly outline why I chose to become vegan:

Human beings are omnivores, which means that we can eat almost anything. There are many divergent nutritional studies and opinions out there, but the gist seems to be that we can get by equally well on meat- or plant-based diets or any combination thereof, as long as we spend some time thinking about what nutrients we need and where to get them.

This means that there is no biological need for us to eat meat. We simply feel like eating it.

Therefore, whenever we kill an animal for food, we are essentially deciding that our appetite is more important than that creature's life. We are inflicting deadly violence on a defenseless being, simply for our own pleasure. Personally, I don't think that's ethical behavior.

Now, many people say that nature isn't ethical, that animals brutally kill and eat other animals all the time. That's true, but we are not animals. We are not lions or sharks. Lions or sharks cannot choose *not* to eat meat because they are natural carnivores and couldn't survive on a herbivorous diet. Humans, on the other hand, can. We are moral beings and as a result of our morality, we place innumerable restrictions on ourselves for the greater good: We prohibit or disapprove of theft, murder, rape, deception, defamation etc.

So why do we think it's okay to deprive an entire species of their liberty and kill them for their flesh?

To sum it up: Just because we *can* eat anything, doesn't necessarily mean that we *should*.

What do you think? I'm very curious to know.

 

[Thaluikhain]

At present, it does not seem viable for everyone to adopt a vegan lifestyle. We are going to continue eating meat because we need to.

Additionally...we don't kill the animals we eat ourselves, someone else does. Likewise, much of our clothes, electronics and shiny plastic junk comes from places and practices that we don't approve of...but these are far away and we don't care.

People tend to dislike and fear China, but don't stop trading with them. That sort of thing extends to people not liking animals being harmed, but buying meat.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Last time I checked, animals aren't intelligent. There's no reason why we shouldn't eat them.

 

[technoted]

I think that we have eyes in the front of our heads for a reason. I think e have canines for a reason. It's not wrong to kill animals for food it's how it's supposed to be, we're predators and if a person chooses to be a vegetarian or vegan then it's their choice. But I like animals, I don't agree with hunting for sport, testing products on animals and stuff like that but I'm not going to stop eating meat.

And yes we are animals and we think it's ok to kill them because we were designed to kill stuff to eat it...

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I won't eat any animal that proves it is sentient to me. However, if it is not, I am afraid it is fair game. Human beings spent a long time getting to the top of the food chain and I am going to enjoy it!
The main issue I have with most Vegans who refuse to eat meat because they are against animals being killed. They usually still consume things that also result in animals being killed such as grains and wheat, which results in tons of animals being killed during the harvesting process.
They also purchase and use things that result in animals being killed. It just seems hypocritical to me. If you really don't want to harm animals then you have to go live in a cave and just grow all your own food.
This may not describe you but I find many of them to be massive hypocrits who just like to push their agenda on me. I also find many Vegans to be more anti-capitalist than anti-killing animals.

 

[Christemo]

That's true, but we are not animals.

yes we are. we are animals, we are just the most advanced species of animals on the planet.

and on the topic of killing animals, if thats the case, of being omnivores, then why don´t animals like small cats live strictly off of catnip? do you think im going to punish my cat if he comes home with a mouse in his mouth.

it´s survival of the fittest. if the animal kingdom can´t keep up with us, they will have to evolve and adapt. do you think lions would start feeling bad for us if they hunted us and ate us? No.

Animals eat other animals, and thats exactly what we are. there´s no reason we should respect and not eat animals that would do the exact same to us given the chance.

 

[Averant]

I have one life, and I'm here to enjoy it. Pass the Heart Attack burger, please.

And while we may be able to get by with only roots and berries, why would we want to? We're at the top of the food chain for a reason, and we've been eating animals (and on the rare occasion, each other) for, quite literally, millennia. Why stop now cause some bastard went mushy on an animal one day and decided they have the right to stop centuries of muscle-building, stomach-filling tradition and progress?

We are inflicting deadly violence on a defenseless being, simply for our own pleasure. Personally, I don't think that's ethical behavior.

Now, many people say that nature isn't ethical, that animals brutally kill and eat other animals all the time. That's true, but we are not animals. We are not lions or sharks. Lions or sharks cannot choose *not* to eat meat because they are natural carnivores and couldn't survive on a herbivorous diet. Humans, on the other hand, can. We are moral beings and as a result of our morality, we place innumerable restrictions on ourselves for the greater good: We prohibit or disapprove of theft, murder, rape, deception, defamation etc.

So why do we think it's okay to deprive an entire species of their liberty and kill them for their flesh?

To sum it up: Just because we *can* eat anything, doesn't necessarily mean that we *should*.

What do you think? I'm very curious to know.

Ahahaha, yeah, you ever seen some of the "defenseless" animals that we've killed for meat? You know, the ones that kill back? Lions, Tigers, Bears, Wolves. Pretty much any large predator would, and still do to this day, consider us tasty treats if we wander out alone into the wild.

You do realize that if it weren't for the human desire for meat, we wouldn't be where we are today? Seriously, we may not be totally carnivores, but we ARE predators.

Also, you're slightly wrong on the morality bit. We are INTELLIGENT beings, and as a result of said intelligence, we created morality. We are not inherently moral. We ARE animals, even if it may not show on the surface. We are descended from animals, and we have the biological needs of animals.

We're not Herbivores. We're Omnivores, as you have said yourself. And while maybe we shouldn't, we CAN. And because we can, we do. And it tastes delicious.

 

[Dimitriov]

Well, actually we ARE animals, but yes we can choose.

I tried being vegan myself a long time ago, and lasted maybe a month. Then I tried being vegetarian for a while but gave up on that too.

Honestly I have never felt so weak and lethargic in my life. I firmly believe that my body does require meat, at the very least fish. Same people might not need it, but everyone's slightly different. I think it's entirely plausible that, genetically speaking, some people would have slightly different digestive needs.

And yes I ate appropriate things when I was off meat. In fact I have never eaten so many nuts and beans, etc. in my life. I was craving protein something fierce.


Also, I have no problem killing something in order to live, or eat it, or even make use of it. I personally consider it unethical to put the welfare of another species ahead of your own, within reason. I certainly don't approve of indiscriminate killing for no reason, or the unnecessary mistreatment of animals while they are alive.

And I do believe that much of the meat industry needs to be reformed badly.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Their liberty? They wouldn't have been alive if it weren't for our desire for meat and milk.

 

[Ruwrak]

Whatever someone's opinion is, it's fine by me. Don't eat meat, or do eat meat. Save the animals or.. well put them on your plate.

But the one major thing I have with most people is "Why would you not ? You SHOULD do because of . And then force it down my throat. LIke the animal rights party in the Netherlands "We want to make a law where eating meat on a wednesday is forbidden, this way we can save countless of animals (who do not know better and probably don't know the difference either.) and save energy. Plus it's healthy for everyone"

Well.. Color me annoyed. If I want to eat something, I pretty dang well eat it. I know that some things are not consistent of beef alone. But it tastes good so I'm indifferent to it.
As long as the animal isn't talking to me though I'm all good.

Pretty sure that if a tiger is hungry, of f it we all heard this argument before. If a cow would start gnawing on me with the intent of eating me I would not say "But you need to be vegan!" .. I'd show her -why- I eat cow on regular basis.

[Disclaier] comments made above are not ment for serious debate. It's an opinion and therefor not a valid arguement. [/disclaimer]

 

[Cubilone]

Cadmium Magenta, I'm with you. I'm a vegetarian myself but admire vegans that do not make fools of themselves by being too preachy about their choices.

Prepare to be met with overwhelming close-mindedness and hypocrisy.

Last time I checked, animals aren't intelligent. There's no reason why we shouldn't eat them.

Would you eat a retarded person? How do you define intelligence? Are dogs, pigs or dolphins intelligent in your worldview?

I think that we have eyes in the front of our heads for a reason. I think e have canines for a reason. It's not wrong to kill animals for food it's how it's supposed to be, we're predators and if a person chooses to be a vegetarian or vegan then it's their choice. But I like animals, I don't agree with hunting for sport, testing products on animals and stuff like that but I'm not going to stop eating meat.

And yes we are animals and we think it's ok to kill them because we were designed to kill stuff to eat it...

You also have other natural tendencies you prefer to overlook. You don't rape girls just because they might have given you an erection. Claiming you deserve to eat meat because you have "canines" (very very small ones compared to true carnivores) does not mean a thing. Can you kill a running deer by biting it in the neck? And when exactly was the last time you killed your own food au naturel?

We are not carnivores. We are omnivores. We can eat anything. We must have developed this versatility when we did not have much choice when it came to food (we had to hunt or die), but now we can choose.

People saying that they do it because it's natural are just giving excuses for a weak moral line. Unless of course they don't care -- that is, I expect, most people.

 

[MellowFellow]

I like being an omnivore because it gives me many choices of what I can eat, and I like eating meat.

 

[Sizzle Montyjing]

Well, hello there and you're welcome around as long as you don't get pissy about the things we do ;P
I'm fine with Vegans, or in fact anyone as long as they're fine with me.
So hi!

However, i do believe there is something that we all need to drill into our heads-
Us Human beings are the dominant species on this planet, and the most intelligent.
We essentially determine which animals live or die.

he only reason they're are lots of pigs and chickens around, is because we eat them. If we didn't most farmyard animals would be scarce/ extinct by now.
One day we'll do away with meat and literally grow all of our food, but not today.

 

[technoted]

Snip

You also have other natural tendencies you prefer to overlook. You don't rape girls just because they might have given you an erection. Claiming you deserve to eat meat because you have "canines" (very very small ones compared to true carnivores) does not mean a thing. Can you kill a running deer by biting it in the neck? And when exactly was the last time you killed your own food au naturel?

We are not carnivores. We are omnivores. We can eat anything. We must have developed this versatility when we did not have much choice when it came to food (we had to hunt or die), but now we can choose.

People saying that they do it because it's natural are just giving excuses for a weak moral line. Unless of course they don't care -- that is, I expect, most people.

Comparing people who choose to eat meat to rapists, well done there. Allow me to put it like this. Just because I choose to eat meat does not make me a rapist and being all high and mighty looking down on people from your pedastal is just childish seriously.

As I said I have no problem with people choosing to be vegetarians or vegans, I wouldn't to be one but I don't go around saying stupid comments like "You don't eat meat, you're as bad as the Nazis!" just because I don't agree with them. It's people like you who make a lot of people give abuse to vegetarians when you start comparing us to rapist.

And yes I could kill a dear by biting it in the neck, why I would even consider it under normal circumstances I don't know but yes I could and if I was stranded without food and any way to get help then maybe I'd go around biting dear.

 

[Cubilone]

Saying that it's ethical to have chickens and cows around because otherwise they would be extinct is like saying that the machines in the Matrix were doing humans a favor they were using them as living batteries.

 

[crazyarms33]

Cadmium Magenta, I'm with you. I'm a vegetarian myself but admire vegans that do not make fools of themselves by being too preachy about their choices.

Prepare to be met with overwhelming close-mindedness and hypocrisy.

Last time I checked, animals aren't intelligent. There's no reason why we shouldn't eat them.

Would you eat a retarded person? How do you define intelligence? Are dogs, pigs or dolphins intelligent in your worldview?

No. They are not, with exceptions being chimps and dolphins. But last I checked very few people eat them. And how can you possibly equate a retarded human to a fish? Are the retarded humans not people? Or are people only those that are "functional" or "normal"?

I think that we have eyes in the front of our heads for a reason. I think e have canines for a reason. It's not wrong to kill animals for food it's how it's supposed to be, we're predators and if a person chooses to be a vegetarian or vegan then it's their choice. But I like animals, I don't agree with hunting for sport, testing products on animals and stuff like that but I'm not going to stop eating meat.

And yes we are animals and we think it's ok to kill them because we were designed to kill stuff to eat it...

You also have other natural tendencies you prefer to overlook. You don't rape girls just because they might have given you an erection. Claiming you deserve to eat meat because you have "canines" (very very small ones compared to true carnivores) does not mean a thing. Can you kill a running deer by biting it in the neck? And when exactly was the last time you killed your own food au naturel?

We are not carnivores. We are omnivores. We can eat anything. We must have developed this versatility when we did not have much choice when it came to food (we had to hunt or die), but now we can choose.

People saying that they do it because it's natural are just giving excuses for a weak moral line. Unless of course they don't care -- that is, I expect, most people.

It is natural boss. If you make a conscious choice to be DIFFERENT from the norm(IE: not eating meat) you are breaking the natural order. One might as well say that if you chose to only drink milk because water is a resource that shouldn't be wasted on hydration and only used for crops and if you disagree its because you have weak ethics. That makes no sense at all. As for the raping thing, yes rape is horrible. And just because a girl gives you an erection doesnt mean you attack her. The difference is you NEED food to survive. Not quite the case there with sex, though it would make life very sad. Also you ask "when was the last time you killed your own food au naturel?" does that mean with my bare hands or with tools? Is using tools against nature? Does it mean you have weak ethics if you use tools? Do you ride a bike? Drive a car? Ride in a plane? Use the internet? Wear clothes? None of that is in line with true nature, yet we do it. Does that mean that we all have weak ethics? Or is there an ethical line that makes you feel better about what you do that others cross? I would say EVERYONE has such a line in their head, and this is clearly one of those issues.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

Saying that it's ethical to have chickens and cows around because otherwise they would be extinct is like saying that the machines in the Matrix were doing humans a favor they were using them as living batteries.

I can't find anyone here in this thread making that statement, so you're just making a preemptive argument?

 

[Chevalier noir]

I remember reading a lot about how hunters play a vital role in conservation by keeping wildlife population in check. That if we suddenly stopped killing them, they would multiply to fast, overeat finite food sources leading to a gradual collapse of the forest ecosystem. I'm no expert of course, but if that is true than if we all suddenly stopped eating game meat their fate would be a slow painful starvation. I realize most people eat farm raised meat, but its related.

As for farm animals, with the exception of pigs most of them would never survive in the wild so if we stopped needing to eat them they would just die out.

The point I'm fumbling with is that the attitude of;

"Therefore, whenever we kill an animal for food, we are essentially deciding that our appetite is more important than that creature's life. We are inflicting deadly violence on a defenseless being, simply for our own pleasure. Personally, I don't think that's ethical behavior."

Flies in the face of the facts suggesting that the animal species we hunt or raise are better off because we eat them.

 

[Smiles]

My uncle hunts for sport and meat, got a problem with that? I love the deer pepperoni.

I could never be vegen, I love milk and eggs too much.

 

[LostNightRecon]

At least when I eat meat its not still alive. The plant life is generally still in photosynthesis. its still breathing and producing food and oxygen. So in all respects its still alive. So you say its unethical to eat things that are born to be killed for food and can not survive naturally because of what we have done to them in domestication yet something that lives naturally and is still alive on the plate is ethical? I'm sorry that seems a bit backwards to me. Not trying to start anything just an observation about that that is kind of an interesting point. I however eat both a true omnivore... I really shouldn't post this early in the morning... And I don't mind peoples choices its your life you can live how you want just let me live how I want.